LL-L "List" 2003.09.10 (09) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 10.SEP.2003 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "List" 2003.09.10 (08) [E]

One of the things that attracted me to the study of linguistics is that one
language is not defined as better than another.  Additionally, one dialect
within a language is not more "correct" than another, dialects simply are
what they are.  This open-mindedness regarding a fundamental human activity
is very refreshing to me.  Therefore, the notion that the study of a
language is somehow endorsing an ideology, is analogous to saying that the
study of physics is endorsing nuclear weapons.  Clearly, a particular
language can be used to impose an ideology, just like particular priniciples
of physics can be used to make a nuclear bomb.  However, just like the study
of physics can produce things other than nuclear bombs, the study of
language produces things other than ideology.

Best wishes,
Mark Brooks

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "List" 2003.09.10 (05) [E]

Ron suggested this draft:

> "Lowlands-L is open to people of all types of backgrounds.  It focuses on
a
> particular group of languages and cultures but in no way proposes that
these
> are superior to others, nor does it ignore languages and cultures with
which
> these have come into contact in more recent times.  We are aware that the
> history of the Lowlands area and its former colonies comes with some dark
> chapters, and these may occasionally be mentioned in discussions. However,
> we do not permit use of the List for promotion of chauvinist and
xenophobic
> notions."

To tell you the truth, I think this is terrible. You have nothing to
apologise for, and this makes it sound like you do. You should NOT be
allowing whatever idiot may have made those allegations to affect you in
this way. This text REALLY sounds like Lowlands has some potential ethnicist
undercurrents, by denying it so fervently - "qui s'excuse, s'accuse".
Particularly, the word "superior" should not even be mentioned as a concept,
and there is no need to apologise in this forum for the "dark chapters"
which we are all aware of. Just shrug it off and leave it be, and don't make
it worse by sounding so defensive!

Gabriele Kahn

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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "List"

> From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel <gvanmoor at aoc.nrao.edu>
> Subject: LL-L "List" 2003.09.10 (05) [E]
>
> Ron wrote:
>
> > "Lowlands-L is open to people of all types of backgrounds.  It
> focuses on
> a
> > particular group of languages and cultures but in no way proposes that
> these
> > are superior to others, nor does it ignore languages and cultures with
> which
> > these have come into contact in more recent times.  We are
> aware that the
> > history of the Lowlands area and its former colonies comes with
> some dark
> > chapters, and these may occasionally be mentioned in
> discussions. However,
> > we do not permit use of the List for promotion of chauvinist and
> xenophobic
> > notions."
>
> If we are going to have such a text at all I think the proposed
> text is good.  But I am not convinced this list needs it.  How
> often is this list mistaken for something that it isn't?  My
> guess is very rarely.  Sometimes explicitly stating what some-
> thing isn't can arouse more suspicions than not stating anything
> at all.

I think we'd be better off without the text. As has been mentioned, there's
not much point in trying to reason with the sort of people who are the
problem here, and to understand the intention of the text would involve
straight reasoning and common sense, which the people it's aimed at haven't
got.

I suspect that for many people what will happen is that the word "dark" will
leap out at them from the page, and we'll get people saying that LL-L deals
with the darker side of being Teutonic (maybe we should revive that word now
that "Germanic" is losing its respectability  :)

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: List

Thanks again.

Gabriele's and Sandy's input (above) convinced me that I should have stayed
with my initial attitude according to which the List does not require any
disclaimers and apologies.  Let's leave it as it is then, and I'll try not
to let folks rattle my cage that easily in the future.

Let's see what this printed accusation is about and then consider if it's
even worth responding to it.

Thanks again,
Reinhard/Ron

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