LL-L "Etymology" 2003.09.10 (11) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 10.SEP.2003 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2003.09.10 (01) [E]

A chairde,

Luc wrote:
"I know of a similar case in my Brabantish dialect
where the French loanword "plafond", "ceiling"(E), is
invariably pronounced "blafong""

My native phonology is Nottingham English, and Fr. [p]
usually sounds either as [b] or as a plosive somewhere
in-between the two, e.g. I would hear Fr. 'plafond' as
'blafon'.

Having said that, I often hear Irish [r'] as [Z] (the
same sound as Polish /rz/ or the /s/ in Eng.
'pleasure'), so it may just be that I have defective
hearing.

Criostóir.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Etymology

This is starting to interest me more than usual.

Speakers of Standard and Northern German and Lowlands Saxon (Low German)
dialects of Germany tend to interprete unaspirated voiceless stops as voiced
stops; i.e., [p] as [b], [t] as [d], [k] as [g].  This is because their
native dialects always aspirate voiceless stops, at least word-initially.
My maternal grandmother spoke what she called "Lower Silesian," a German
dialect of former Greater Lusatia, now of the fareastern part of the state
of Saxony, right on today's Polish border.  We would imitate her by saying
for instance _Dasche_ ['daS@] for her _Tasche_ ['taS@] 'bag', because in our
varieties we pronounced _Tasche_ ['t_haSe], with aspiration.

Romance languages do not as a rule aspirate, and speakers of many Germanic
varieties tend to hear unaspirated voiceless stops as voiced, hence French
_plafond_ [pla'fõ] heard as [bla'fõ].  In Viennese and other Austrian
dialects of German, this is not a problem, because the native dialects do
not aspirate either, so they say [pla'fõ] (where Standard German has
_(Zimmer-) Decke_).

However, where this gets really interesting is that the Low Franconian
dialects do not aspirate either (one of the difficulties of North Germans
and English speakers in learning Dutch).  So this problem ought not exist in
this case.

My question to Luc Hellinckx then: Does your Brabantish dialect have initial
aspiration?  If not, it would be very surprising that it renders _plafond_
as _blafong_, unless it borrowed the word from an aspirating variety, for
instance one of Germany.

This also goes for _boegseren_, if we assume that it comes from Portuguese
_puxar_.  Might the varieties of the Netherlands have borrowed it from an
aspirating variety, such as a Lowlands Saxon (Low German) variety of
Germany?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

================================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================