LL-L "List" 2003.09.11 (05) [D/E]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann <Fieteding at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "List" 2003.09.10 (05) [E]

Hi, all Lowlanners and all sympathizers,

are we really forced to apologize for our language roots?

Perhaps Saxon tribes have been imperialistical and even warlike, in our
common and diversal past.
But- they just are our etymological and lingual ancestors.

I'm sure, the greater part of our *community* has as much or even more
ancestors of Romanic, Slavonic, Celtic or elsewhere origin as they have from
the so called Germanic variety.

Oh- hab' ich eine Wut im Bauch gegen diese Idioten!

But- Ron wrote (leaving this damned theme):

> We seem to have quite a flock
> of nightowls on this list

Yes- so I think.
Did You ever see wise "day"owls :-) ?

Regards

Fiete

(Friedrich W. Neumann)
Not Lucifer I fear
but those almighty Gods

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From: Anja Meyfarth <anja-meyfarth at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "List" 2003.09.10 (05) [E]

Moin moin!

Gary wrote:

> just to be in defence of the Germans - I'm studying
> language change amongst the Germanic dialects in
> Berlin, which include all Germanic dialects -
> including for example Yiddish. I find it sometimes
> difficult to give an exact title to my studies.
> 'Germanistik' in Germany unfortunately only applies to
> dialects as spoken in Germany (this also often
> unfortunately ignores Low German dialects and totally
> excludes North Frisian dialects).

You're right, there is no possibility to study Germanic languages in a
whole. You have to put it together from Germanistik, Skandinavistik
(Nordistik), Anglo-Amerikanistik, Frisistik. Frisistik is only to be found
in Kiel and I think in Oldenburg (in Oldenburg). Low Saxon studies can be
made in Kiel, Hamburg, Bremen, Greifswald, Rostock, Münster, Oldenburg,
Göttingen. That's how it is. Regional languages can be studied only in the
specific region. For example, as far as I know you cannot study Sorbian
language in Kiel.

> I've now been studying for a year, and as said, in
> defence of Germans, I've never heard a negative
> comment about what I'm studying. It's purely through
> the difficulty of finding the correct department to
> work in, and giving a label to my theme that I've
> realised that it is a touchy subject.

Well, the comment I got was not from someone studying Germanistik or one of
the other topics, he was studying European Ethnology, Volkskunde in German
(at least that was it was called earlier, most universities changed the
name). That subject has been useful to the Nazis so they are labouring hard
even today to wash of their history. To some students this history seems to
give a kind of inferiority complex and a kind of paranoia. But the remark
was not scientific at all and that's how he was discrediting himself in the
end. Problem is that no one protested at the remark. I myself had been
speechless and I'm regretting that bitterly. Maybe I had had a chance of
teaching him a bit. Or the others.

Low Saxon itself has ben used for nazist propaganda although the official
opinion to the language has been very ambivalent. With Frisian it has been
even more complicated because a part of the North Frisians were feeling
rather danish than german. On regional/communal banknotes from 1920 and 1921
there is a lot of propaganda in behalf of the vote for the new border
between Danmark and Germany. This propaganda is sometimes in Low Saxon or in
Frisian. Low Saxon propaganda is almost always pro-German whereas Frisian
propaganda could be pro-German or pro-Danish. I'm collecting those banknotes
and it is very interesting to see that. So Frisian was more suspect to the
Nazis than Low Saxon but in general they were not so happy with other
languages in Germany at all because they could be used as secret languages.

Greetings from Kiel,

Anja

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From: GaidhealdeAlba at aol.com <GaidhealdeAlba at aol.com>
Subject: LL-L "List" 2003.09.10 (05) [E]

Latha math, a Gabrielle agus Lowlanders,

Gabrielle wrote:

  Would you like it any better if every child in Germany were familiar with
  Hitler's personal preferences today? I think not. Let us never forget what
  happened, but let the horrid little man himself fade into insignificance
  where he belongs.
I should be more careful, but surely you recognized that I did not mean to
stereotype all Germans. But the culture as a whole has, like someone said of
the word Germanic, a knee-jerk reaction when it comes to things that relate
to German-ness. I'm sorry for the generalization.

Beannachdan,
Uilleam Òg mhic Sheumais

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From: GaidhealdeAlba at aol.com <GaidhealdeAlba at aol.com>
Subject: LL-L "List" 2003.09.10 (05) [E]


Gabriele's and Sandy's input (above) convinced me that I should have stayed
with my initial attitude according to which the List does not require any
disclaimers and apologies.  Let's leave it as it is then, and I'll try not
to let folks rattle my cage that easily in the future.
Let's see what this printed accusation is about and then consider if it's
even worth responding to it.
Thanks again,
Reinhard/Ron


Hello Ron,
I do not think the list has anything to be ashamed of or embarrassed about.
It is an open forum for people to discuss, enquire, share and learn, with
the common thread being Lowlands languages. It has a wide international
input, including many Jewish peoples who have homes, heritage and family
from Lowlands areas. I agree there should be no additional disclaimers on
the website. We are not apologists for the Nazi past, nor should we be too
scared to discuss issues such as the impacts of the Nazi era on our
languages etc. By all means respond to the article as individuals and/or as
a group. I know in Australia people understand and have empathy for the
Jewish peoples and Nazi legacy. The older generations were blinded by war
propaganda and were conditioned to see German as Nazi with no real
distinction. I know many Aussies who are 60 and 70 years old who read books
and watch videos (or their daughters married wogs like me) and only now
start to realise the historical, social, cultural and economic flux of that
era. Our younger generations are now very well educated with good
questioning minds and they know Germanic and Nazi are not synonyms.
Peter Snepvangers
snepvangers at optushome.com.au

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From: Jan van Steenbergen <wenedyk at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "List" 2003.09.10 (05) [E]



 --- Floor van Lamoen skrzypszy:

> There are two elements in the scope of LL-L that might make people
> suspcious: [...]

An excellent text!

> You may try to whitewash all possible elements of the focus of LL-L that

> might give people the impression that the focus is part of the dark side

> of politics. On the other side, these darker elements are there, they
> belong to it. Be it slave-trading, Nazism, apartheid, these are part of
> the history (and even culture...) of people in the LL-L scope.

All true, but is it really worth to mention that?
If people are thát prejudiced, they probably will not be convinced by any
counterargument you use anyway. Let's just take for granted that there are
people, unfortunately, who immediately start prancing as soon as they hear
words like "Germanic", "German", etc. These people are not interested in
arguments; they will rather stick firmly to their easy and comforting
beliefs.
I have a similar experience with people who dislike [all] Poles and [all]
Ukrainians, because [all] Poles and [all] Ukrainians are antisemites. The
truth is, they know virtually nothing about either of them, but
nevertheless they claim to have a deeper understanding. I used to point
out numerous facts and arguments against such opinions, but in general
these people don't even want to hear it.
My advise therefore would be to simply ignore such accusations. Mentioning
apartheid and Germany's nazi past in the website of a linguistic list
would only distract the attention from what it really is about.

Besides, every country or region has a dark past. Wouldn't it be equally
absurd if a list for slavists was introduced with a denunciation of Stalin
and/or Soviet communism?

> What do others think of this??

As I said: while your analysis is undoubtedly true, I think it would be
better not to react at all to the dumb accusations of intellectually lazy
people, let alone to defend yourself in advance against them.

> From: Evert Mouw
> > From: R. F. Hahn
>
> > For example, I have a hard time dealing with Wagner operas, mostly
> > because of the role they and some of the associated people played
> > under the Nazis [...]

So do I, but mainly because of the music itself. A Debussy once put it
(I'll quote him in Dutch): "Mooie momenten, kwade kwartieren".
As for Wagner's antisemitic opinions: while I sincerily dislike them, we
should also accept that they were rather common in his time, and that
there were other great artists (L.-F. Céline, Ezra Pound) who had similar
ideas.

> Wagner created his masterworks before the Nazi's gained power. No
> baggage.

Sure, you can't blame Wagner for the fact that Hitler c.s. liked his
music. But you cannot deny that Wagner had views that came suspiciously
close to the Nazis. That's not the reason that I dislike most of his
music, though.

> My father told me that most farmers actually liked the occupation. The
> Nazi's paid them for their products and much of the Nazi ideology
> appealed to them.

Well, there certainly were such farmers who took profit from the
occupation because it enabled them to charge an arm and a leg for one egg.

> From: R. F. Hahn
>
> My draft based on Floor's draft:
>
> "Lowlands-L is open to people of all types of backgrounds.  It focuses
> on a particular group of languages and cultures but in no way proposes
> that these are superior to others, nor does it ignore languages and
> cultures with which these have come into contact in more recent times.
> We are aware that the history of the Lowlands area and its former
> colonies comes with some dark chapters, and these may occasionally be
> mentioned in discussions. However, we do not permit use of the List for
> promotion of chauvinist and xenophobic notions."

FWIW, here is a Dutch translation:

"Lowlands-L staat open voor mensen van diverse achtergrond. De lijst
concentreert zich weliswaar op een bepaalde groep talen en culturen, maar
stelt in geen enkel opzicht dat deze beter zijn dan andere en gaat evenmin
voorbij aan de talen en culturen die er in een recenter verleden mee in
aanraking zijn geweest.
Wij zijn ons ervan bewust, dat de geschiedenis van het Lowlands-gebied en
zijn vroegere koloniën duistere hoofdstukken kent, en het kan gebeuren dat
deze bij gelegenheid in de discussies de revue passeren. Wij staan echter
niet toe, dat de lijst als medium wordt gebruikt voor het propageren van
chauvinistische opvattingen en/of vreemdelingenhaat."

> Maybe "chauvinist and xenophobic notions" could have a rollover link
> opening a window that says:
>
> ***
> for instance ...
> * interest in local culture as an expression of xenophobia
> * colonialism practiced by countries of the Lowlands area
> * slave trading and slave holding
> * ideas of national and ethnic superiority (Nazism, apartheid, e.a.).
> ***

"Bij voorbeeld:
* interesse voor locale cultuur als een uitdrukking van vreemdelingenhaat
* kolonialisme, zoals dat door landen uit het Lowland-gebied in de
praktijk is gebracht
* slavenhandel en slavendrijverij
* ideeën over nationale en/of etnische superioriteit
(nationaal-socialisme, apartheid e.d.).
"

Well, I would advise against it, but if you should decide to go for such a
text, then I hope I could be of help.

Jan

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From: Floor en Lyanne van Lamoen <f.v.lamoen at wxs.nl>
Subject: LL-L "List" 2003.09.10 (12) [E]

Dear Ron,

I see that you decided not to include a note on the LL-L page. I agree
in the sense that I don't like to see any kind of apologies, there is
nothing to apologize for. A more or less objective comment on the dark
side I would think hurts nobody. But now that others see it as
apologies, so be it.

Ron, sorry for having been not active on the list for so long. Still I
want to say that I very much appreciate what you have set up. This list
is so much openminded that accusations with the word "Nazi" are
ridiculous beforehand. They can only exist by ignorance of the accuser
or by complete misunderstanding.

Groeten uit Goes,
Floor van Lamoen.

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From: Antero Helasvuo <antero.helasvuo at welho.com>
Subject: "List"

Dear Ron,

I think the contents of the list speaks for itself promoting cultural
diversity and plurality in a most natural way. However those "dark
chapters" you mention in your proposed blurb cannot always be avoided,
as you also state. Actually, in my opinion one should not even try too
much to do so. While the "Germanic" Nazi past is indeed past, clearly
demonstrated by the passing away of  Leni Riefenstahl, whose
achievements we today can appreciate purely by their aesthetic merits.
It's no secret that many great artists and even humanists of the world
have been real bastards in their private lives, which doesn't diminsh
the value of their work. Overreacting to unconventional or unacceptable
views may shut up those who express them, but I wonder whether the world
is any better for it.
Take for instance Afrikaans. Once it was vigorously present on the
Lowlands list but lately I have noticed the interest in it dwindling.
Could it be due to the inevitable association of the language with the
admittedly despicable Afrikaner apartheid politics? I think so, and
reactions to anything Afrikaans have sometimes been full of righteous
rage. In Southern Africa there is a culture in transition, a
contemporary phenomenon, where ethnic and linguistic aspects are
inseparably entwined. A fact that people living inside it cannot escape.
There is also the wide realm of different Lowlands based creole
languages that deserves more attention. What kinds of languages or
argots as it were do they actually speak in the townships of
Johannesburg? Surely all of us are interested in the origins of words
and expressions in various languages, but being serious about that takes
deep digging bound to unearth some repulsive remains. It may take some
time before one can live with that, but language research wearing teflon
coating isn't going to yeld great results.
Yet, while being tolerant and critical are not mutually excluding
options, none of those allow for fanaticism. Thus opinions like "the
hottentots are animals" deserve to be crushed without mercy. One could
argue that such dialogue belongs to the realm of literature or wider
cultural context. Linguistics however provide a unique peephole into the
collective unconscious minds of peoples and populations. Bigotry tends
to tap those resources uscrupulously while stifling diversity in
general. We should celebrate all kinds of discoveries, whether they be a
can of worms or a glittering treasure of gold, and use them in a
constructive manner.

Regards

Antero Helasvuo

--
Antero Helasvuo
Luutnantinpolku 9 C 20
00410 HELSINKI
FINLAND

TEL (fax on demand) +358 9 5872345
antero.helasvuo at welho.com

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: List

Once again thanks for your responses and for the many wise words, folks.  It
seems we have pretty much reached a concensus.  I/We will not dignify with a
response whatever this is, unless it is clear that this misrepresentation
reaches an audience that we do not wish to be left with this unfounded
characterization.

Your generally wise and insightful expressions of help and support have been
very gratifying and even "comforting" to me, gratifying particularly because
they show that at least those of you who took the trouble to write really
understand what Lowlands-L is supposed to be and do, and that I am in
excellent company and that we are of like spirit.

Floor,

> Ron, sorry for having been not active on the list for so long.

No need to apologize, Floor.  I appreciate you and everyone else
irrespective of frequency of participation.  I hope you and your family are
well and had a great summer.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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