LL-L "Language contacts" 2003.09.15 (09) [E]

Tue Sep 16 00:42:54 UTC 2003

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L O W L A N D S - L * 15.SEP.2003 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language contacts" 2003.09.13 (08) [E]

A chairde

Dan Ryan-Prohaska wrote:
"I must add however, that many of the developments
that make West Frisian seem so close to English are
secondary and developed quite independently at very
different periods!"

I don't want to offend any Frisians but as a native
English speaker I don't find Westerlauwer Frisian as
close to English as claimed - it is far closer to
Dutch and Low Saxon in its lexicon and grammar.
Obviously these similarities came about through a
mixture of proximity, linguistic oppression and
maintenance of the pan-Lowlandic features that English
lost as a consequence of the disruptive influence of
Norman French and Latin (particularly with regards
lexicon and grammar).

What are these "secondary independent developments",
Dan?

Criostóir.

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language contacts" 2003.09.14 (02) [E]

A chairde

With regard to Latinate jargon in professional
language: in some circumstances (e.g., essays,
newspaper articles, broadcasting) Romance-origin words
are handy to keep word limits down - as Sandy's
examples about setting women free/emancipation showed.
Latinate synonyms can cut words used down by as much
as a third.

Blame academia.

Criostóir.

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language contacts

Críostóir,

I basically agree with you on both counts (above).

> I don't want to offend any Frisians but as a native
> English speaker I don't find Westerlauwer Frisian as
> close to English as claimed - it is far closer to
> Dutch and Low Saxon in its lexicon and grammar.

This is my feeling also.  I feel that in the literature a lot has been made
about individual words Frisian, English and Scots have in common, as well as
k-affricatization (which Mennonite Lowlands Saxon ["Plautdietsch"] happens
to have also, albeit for other reasons, namely Slavonic influences).

I am not sure I totally understand what you said about the reasons above.
It is my feeling that many Frisian varieties are lexically simply more
conservative and share numerous words with English and Scots that in other
West Germanic varieties have been replaced, English and Scots being insular
languages that developed in relative isolation from other West Germanic
varieties.  Having said this, I still believe that Frisian contributed
considerably to the early development of Old English.

However, we mustn't forget that Frisian has been more or less influenced by
Franconian and Saxon and thus has itself undergone "distortion" since
Germanic colonization of Britain.

> With regard to Latinate jargon in professional
> language: in some circumstances (e.g., essays,
> newspaper articles, broadcasting) Romance-origin words
> are handy to keep word limits down - as Sandy's
> examples about setting women free/emancipation showed.
> Latinate synonyms can cut words used down by as much
> as a third.

Well, yes.  The Romance portion of English and Scots may be a stumbling
block in inter-Germanic mutual comprehension (which is pretty high at least
among the Continental Lowlands varieties) and also to the learning of these
two languages by speakers of other Germanic languages.  However,
irrespective of abuse, Romance-derived words often do permit a type of
succinct mode of expression that is unequalled in other Germanic languages.
I notice this a lot when I translate English texts into German and Lowlands
Saxon (Low German).  This is why I consider Romance influences on English
and Scots not detrimental but in fact enriching, apart from the aspect of
"alienation" from their sister languages.

Language "mixing," like cultural mixing, may be viewed with alarm while it
is happening, but the results tend to be rich, adaptable and viable blends.
(Look at Yiddish, or look at Afrikaans in our area of interest.)  We mustn't
forget that all languages and cultures are the results of mixtures.  No
language or culture develops totally in isolation.

Again, the disadvantage, if you will, is that foreign influences tend to
alienate languages from their closest relatives (unless all of them are
subject to the same influences), thus tear families apart to various
degrees.  Besides English and Scots, examples are Arabic (Semitic) and
Persian (Indo-European) influences on Turkic languages of Islamized peoples
(thus having alienated them from the Turkic languages of Siberia), Germanic
influences on Finnish, Karelian, Estonian and Livian (having alienated them
from the Finnic languages of Russia proper and Siberia, which in turn have
undergone Slavic influences), and Romanian (including Moldavian) which has
been alienated from other Romance languages by Slavonic and Hungarian
(Ugric, Uralic) influences.

However, once again, sometimes family- or group-internal influences can
alienate a language or group of languages from their relatives.  An example
in our area of interest is Lowlands Saxon influences on the North Germanic
languages of Scandinavia.  These influences have virtually transformed the
Scandinavian languages and have alienated them from Old Norse and from their
conservative insular relatives Icelandic and Faeroese.  On the other hand,
it has brought Scandinavian closer to the West Germanic languages and has
created vastly improved mutual comprehension between them.  So there is
always a give and a take.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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