LL-L "Language contacts" 2003.09.18 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 18.SEP.2003 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language contacts" 2003.09.17 (11) [E]

A chairde

In relation to the current discussion on Norse and
English: a while back we discussed Norse influence on
Anglo-Saxon, and as far as I remember came to the
conclusion that English is best characterised as a
compromise language resulting from Norse and
Anglo-Saxon trial-and-error interaction.

What interests me at the moment - having the
criminally short attention span that I do - is what
effect Norman French had on English. How much of the
difference between English and other Lowlandic
languages can be placed at the feet of Norman French
specifically, in grammar and phonology?

Criostóir.

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From: Terrence Connor <Terrence.Connor at ntrans.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language contacts" 2003.09.17 (05) [E]

Hi lowlanders

Almost all scandinavian words begining with an-, be-, for-, er-, or ending
in -heid, -het,
 -het, -dom have been borrowed (known as "arve-ord" (no.)from "nierdertysk"
..... along with many other frequently used words such as "bruke"
(ge)bruiken, "stå"(staa) staan, "gå (gaa) gaan ... the original nordic words
"stanna" and "ganga" where more or less deserted for their lowlands
equivalents. There are literally hundreds !

I was wondering though about the dutch word "misschien" and danish "måske"
.... who borrowed
which? Surely this is a nordic word. Noerwegian "kanskje" swedish
"kanske"(spelling?)
Direct translation is probably "may-happen" and "can-happen". Could "ske"
and "skje" meaning happen perhaps be related to "skiedenis" "gesschiedenis"
/history/ that was has happened?

Terrence

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From: Anja Meyfarth <anja-meyfarth at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language contacts" 2003.09.17 (05) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
> Subject: Language contacts
>
> Anja,
>
> What you say about Swedish above also applies to most other language
> varieties of Scandinavia.  There were Hanseatic settlements in what are
now
> Norway and Denmark as well, and Lowlands Saxon (Low German) had at least
as
> much influence on them as on Swedish.  Well, to be more careful, let me
add
> that this initially applied to urban Scandinavian, especially to the
> varieties of the cities in which the Hanseatic Trading League dominated
> trade.

But there is an important difference between Stockholm and Bergen and that
time: In Norway only bachelors dwelled and they were forbidden to come in
contact with the local inhabitants (well, winters are long up there
*smile*), whereas the merchants that came to Sweden especially to Stockholm
became swedish. They no longer belonged under the dominion of the german
kaiser or king or whomsoever. They came in whole families and stayed for
good not only for some years as was the case in Norway. They mingled with
the local families. So the influence on Swedish in general has been much
stronger. I deem the influence on Norwegian bokmål to come via Danish.
Because of the personnelunion (that is a direct tanslation form German, I
don't know the correct expression in English) between the duchies of
Schleswig and Holstein and the danish throne there was a german office
(Deutsche Kanzlei) in København which switched to German rather quickly in
the 15th century.
It would be interesting how far the settlements in Russia have had an
influence on the russian language the differences between LS and Russian
being far greater than between LS and scandinavian languages.

Greetings from Kiel,

Anja

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From: Anja Meyfarth <anja-meyfarth at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language contacts" 2003.09.17 (11) [E]

Moin Lowlanders!

Ron wrote:

> I think you are making a really interesting and valuable point in drawing
> our attention to pre-Saxonization Scandinavian (which was closer to
today's
> Icelandic and Faeroese) as a major player, besides Norman French, in the
> process of alienating English and Scots from their West Germanic sister
> languages.

That reminds me of a wondetful day in summer some years ago when I was
reading Old-English Beowulf with the help of my Baetke, Wörterbuch zur
altnordischen Prosaliteratur (dictionary for old-nordic prose) and a litlle
help from a friend. Stephan Israel still around on the list? Many greetings
especially to you!

Anja

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Language contacts

Anja, you made an important point here:

> But there is an important difference between Stockholm and Bergen and that
> time: In Norway only bachelors dwelled and they were forbidden to come in
> contact with the local inhabitants (well, winters are long up there
> *smile*), whereas the merchants that came to Sweden especially to
Stockholm
> became swedish.

This might also account for many of the differences between Lowlands Saxon
(Low German) influences on Swedish versus those on Danish and Norwegian.

(And have you ever seen those tiny, narrow shuttered and lockable (!)
bunkbeds that usually two and up to four of those happless Saxon bachelors
in Bergen had to share each?  Not only were they kept apart from the local
inhabitants, but they were also locked into small cages overnight!)

Helge Tietz:

> But perhaps it might change again, Hebrew
> has been revived to be the spoken language of Israel
> and Innuit is making rapid grounds to become the
> language of all affairs in Greenland.

All of which is rather exciting.  The almost simultaneous emancipation of
two Eskimo states and with them the Inuqtitut language is rather exciting
news, little international attention though it creates, as is typical of the
polar regions (unless there is the issue of oil and other natural
resources).  The move of both Kalaallit Nunaat (Greenland) and Nunavut (in
Northeastern Canada) toward self-determination ought to be watched, and this
includes its effects on language use and development.  It needs to be seen
if it actually improves the status of the Inuqtitut language in those
countries and if this will spill over into Alaska, not only to Inuqtitut
used there but also to the two other Eskimo language groups Inupiatun and
Yupik (the latter of which is used in Siberia as well).

However, the Inuqtitut language community is up against the fragmenting,
divisive effects of colonialism.  The language -- one of the areally most
widespread in the world -- used to be remarkably cohesive, due to nomadism
and intermarriage over vast distances (sometimes between Greenland and
Canada).  Danish-, English- and French-speaking domination have created
certain linguistic divisions and influences, and two orthographies are now
being used, a Roman-based one in Greenland, and a Cree-based one in Canada,
and both the Cree-based one and a separate Roman-based one being used for
Western Inuqtitut in Alaska.

I am rather impressed by the web presentation of the government of Nunavut
(http://www.gov.nu.ca/), which is provided not only in Inuqtitut but also in
Inuinnaqtun (with Roman-based orthography). I understand that there are now
publications that combine Inuqitut, Inuinnaqtun and Kalaallisut
(Greenlandic); thus there are reunification efforts.

This disruption of previous linguistic cohesiveness can also be observed in
the Lowlands, such as in the case of Lowlands Saxon (Low German) under
German and Netherlands domination.

Furthermore, friends in Kalaallit Nunaat tell me that even native speakers
of Inuqtitut will often prefer to use Danish, and groups of Inuqtitut
speakers will automatically switch to Danish if a Danish speaker enters the
scene.  I suppose speakers of minoritized Lowlands languages know this type
of situation all too well too.

The question is if all this damage can be repaired.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language contacts" 2003.09.17 (08) [E]

> From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen <kenneth at gnu.org>
> Subject: LL-L "Language contacts" 2003.09.17 (05) [E]
>
> I don't know whether this is Jutish or Danish but we use "tørn"
> [t(oe)rn] as well.
>
> "I daw ska a gjøer æ køkken rejn - men det er jo båer en bitt tørn mæ å
> karreklud"
>
> (Today I have to clean up the kitchen - but that is easily done with
> the
> "karreklud")
>
> Cheers, Kenneth
>
>> I say _törn_ (< English "turn") to mean 'short (round-)trip',
>> '(pleasure) walk', 'drive', and this is used in Hamburg Missingsch
>> (German
>> on LS substrate) as well.
>>
To make a short round trip is called in Flemish " 'n toerke doen"
"rondtoern" is to travel around.
" 't Is ne heêle toer" means  "that took a big effort to do this"

groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

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