LL-L "Phonology" 2003.09.19 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 19.SEP.2003 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Frédéric Baert <baert_frederic at CARAMAIL.COM>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2003.09.17 (06) [E]

>From: Frédéric Baert <baert_frederic at CARAMAIL.COM>
>Subject: phonology
>
>Goen Dag!
>
>In my french Western Flemish, all vowels followed by "n" or even by "gen"
>are nasalised. This nasalisation can make verbs like "zeggen"
>(English "say") very different in their pronunciation than in standard
>Dutch despite of same orthography. I know that nasalisation of vowels
>followed by "n" also occured in French, Portuguese and Polish.
>
>Can anyone tell me if nasalisation of vowels also occurs in belgian West
>Flemish and in other lowlandic languages?
>Thank you
>
>Frederic Baert
>
>----------
>
>From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
>Subject: Phonology
>
>Salut, Frédéric!
>
>> I know that nasalisation of vowels
>> followed by "n" also occured in French, Portuguese and Polish.
>
>As far as I know, in the case of Polish nasalization is not a phonological
>process (i.e., /n/ does not nasalize a preceding vowel), but Polish has
>phonemic, underlying nasal vowels.  The nasal color has disappeared,
>certainly in Standard Polish, but a nasal consonant is added before certain
>consonants (e.g., _dąb_ [domp], _rząd_ [ʒont], _ręka ['rɛŋka]), and
there is
>no nasal color or nasal consonant insertion if the underlyingly nasal vowel
>is followed by zero (e.g., _piechotą_ [pʲɛ'xoto], _się_ [ɕɛ]).
>
>Frédéric, many Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects sound rather nasal
and
>tend to have even more noticeable vowel nasalization before nasal
>consonants.  So, words like _kan_ 'can', _karn_ 'kernel', 'nucleus', _kaam_
>'come', _steyn_ 'stone', 'rock', and _sing_ 'sing' may sound like
[k_hã.n],
>[k_hã:n], [k_hõ.m], [stɛ˜.ɪ˜n] and [zɪ˜.ŋ] respectively.
In "good"
>old-fashioned Missingsch, like that of Hamburg, the same degree of
>nasalization tends to be heard.
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron

Hi
Thank you for these infomations. I was interesting in this question because
I read recently a french book about birth of the French language and
influence of the old celtic languages of Gallia on this process. In this
book, the author was saying that no other language but portuguese in
proximity of the french-speaking area had nasal vowels. This irritated me
because I thought it was too simple to assure such a rule with only the
knowledge of the standard languages. Indeed, Dutch doesn't have nasal
vowels but french West Flemish has.
The author was pretending that existence of nasal vowels only in French and
Portuguese was a proof that it was an influence of celtic language on
latine and a proof that old celtic languages had nasal vowels.

I was sure that nasal vowels in french West Flemish wasn't an influence
from French because my Flemish has numerous nasal vowels that don't exist
in French. This makes flemish hard to pronounce for a French-speaking
person (I tried to make a friend pronounce "joenge", English "boy", and she
was never able to say it!). I thought that, if nasal vowels were a French
influence, West Flemish would have the same nasal vowels or less than
French, but not more!
Now you said me that lowlands Saxon dialects have noticeable vowel
nasalisation before nasal consonants too. I don't think it's an influence
from French! So nasal vowels in french West Flemish must be an influence
from old Saxon. But is it impossible to think that old Frankish also had
nasal vowels now lost in standard Dutch? In this case nasal vowels in
French could also be another inheritance from old Frankish!

It is because of all this that I asked this question.
Thank you again for having answered.

Frédéric Baert.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Frédéric,

I'm surprised no one has so far mentioned that Afrikaans nasalizes vowels
quite regularly and strongly, often "absorbing" the following nasal
consonant, much like in French.  Of course, most people attribute this to
strong French influence exerted by large numbers of French-speaking
Huguenots that eventually came to be absorbed into the Afrikaans-speaking
population of Southern Africa.  However, perhaps some of the "Dutch"
language varieties that converged into Afrikaans already came with this
predisposition.

In my opinion, it could very well be that French got nasalization from
Celtic varieties of France.  Portuguese, too, is spoken in a formerly
Celtic-speaking area, as are Bayuvarian German dialects of Bavaria and
Austria, many of which have strong nasalization (e.g., _ongzunt_
['ʔɑ̃ktsÊ Í‚(n)t] / ['?Q~ktsU~(n)t], Standard German _angezündet_ 'lit',
'kindled', 'ignited').  However, we can't be sure of this, for we know
hardly anything about Continental Celtic varieties, and it would be
simplistic if other possible causes were not considered. Besides, there were
Celtic settlements in what is now Belgium too.

By the way, you are probably aware that from rather early times on, even
before serious colonization of Britain, Saxons began to settle on the coast
of what are now Belgium and Northern France.

> I tried to make a friend pronounce "joenge", English "boy", ...

In some Lowlands Saxon dialects, such as those of the Lower Elbe region,
this word, too, tends to come with nasalization: _jung_ (<Jung>)
[Ê¥Ê ÌƒÅ‹]/[dz'U~N].

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

================================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================