LL-L "Afrikaans" 2004.04.15 (07) [A/E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 15.APR.2004 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen <kenneth at gnu.org>
Subject: LL-L "Afrikaans" 2004.04.15 (04) [E]

Oh that is coursed by my Danish/Jutish I am afraid :( I tend to use
"was" some places where it might be prefered to use "are" - It is hard
to find an example though...maybe because I dont do that mistake when I
think about it :-)

So yes I mean "are" and not "were".

Kenneth

> > AFAIR the Khoisan (dan. busknegere) were dark and the related
> > Khoikhoi (dan. hottentotter) were a lot lighter. OR maybe it was the
> >  other way around.
>
> Hmm ... I suppose you meant to say "are" instead of "were."
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Afrikaans" 2004.04.15 (05) [E]

Ron wrote:
> Quit trying to make sense of this, Gabriele!

Sorry, it won't happen again... please don't make me write all those lines
again like the last time... <grovel>

Seriously, during my eight years in the USA, I never quite understood who
was supposedly "black" and who wasn't... and why it would even matter at
all. I also had no idea why I would be classified as "Caucasian", because
I've never been near those mountains in my life (even if, in school, the
kids would chant: "Siehst du die Gräber in Kasachstan? Das waren die Lehrer
von Gaby Kahn"). But you're right, it's probably a generation issue. Coming
to think of it: I INSIST that this is a gerneation issue because, at 45, I'd
do anything to be counted among the "younger" Germans! :-)

Still confused, but on a higher level (not really, but I love to say that),
Gabriele

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From: Liza du Plooy <lizaduplooy at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Afrikaans" 2004.04.15 (05) [E]

Gabriele, you wrote:
"All people are coloured, but some are more coloured that others - or
something like that? What about really dark South Africans from India? Would
you call them black, coloured, Asian or white (they're Aryans, after all)?

As these look like official statistics, there must be some kind of official
guidelines... or is it maybe that this was a poll, and people got to
indicate what they preferred to call themselves?"

I can tell you how it used to work. On the back of pre-1994 Birth
certificates it gave a definition of your ID number. The second to last 2
digits indicated you ethicity. It's changed however. Where my ID number used
to end in 003 it now ends in 086. I have no idea what the new numbers
signify since my birth certificate is pre-1994. Anyway, this is the
explanation printed on the back:

  1.. White
  2.. Cape Coloured
  3.. Malay
  4.. Griqua
  5.. Chinese
  6.. Indian
  7.. Other Asian
  8.. Other Coloured
As you'll see there is no black! I guess they got lumped with "Other
Coloured"? Anyway, even as a South-African all these racial classifications
makes little sense to me. I tend to refer to people by their
native-language. That makes more sense to me. I call myself 'Afrikaans'.

Ron, jammer oor so oor politiek te praat! Nou, terug na tale toe!

Liza du Plooy

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From: ezinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Afrikaans" 2004.04.15 (05) [E]

Hi all,

Oy, Gabriele...
>>What about really dark South Africans from India? Would
you call them black, coloured, Asian or white (they're Aryans, after all)?

They are Indians! You know?! Like First Nations are 'Indians'! :-)

Yes, I agree with Ron, don't even try to make sense...I'm currently doing
my organizations annual report and have to place my colleagues and moi,
in categories so that we look as if we are legally compliant. Where do I
put my good Cape Malay pal, under Coloured? Nope he says, I'm not
from mixed infidel blood but from honourable regal Muslim stock...

Anonymous
[Die oubaas se "reveal": Elsie Zinsser]

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From: ezinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Afrikaans" 2004.04.15 (04) [E]

Hi all

Ron, according to my knowledge, most Khoikoin were
obliterated by two pock epidemics that hit the Cape in the 1700's.
The surviving remnants (Griqua) were splinter groups who left/fled
the Cape before the 1750's  if my memory serves me right.
The San (Lourens van der Post's Bushmen) are still surviving and living
in Botswana, the Northern Cape and so on.

Elsie Z
[Die oubaas se toevoeging: ...insser]

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From: ezinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Afrikaans" 2004.04.15 (06) [E]

Hi all,

Census stats are not the best indicators on language users but only
estimates
that could be skewed depending on variables such as language literacy, the
integrity of field workers, a willing populace and sample weighting.

Críostóir: For the 2001 Census, the Council has reported an underestimate of
the white population. The population figures presented were 3,99 million
'coloured'
people and 4,29 million 'white' people. I based my assumption of more white
than
coloured speakers on 2 previous Census counts.

Also, during the 2001 Census, forms were not made available in Afrikaans and
after
an interdict to halt the Census, the Constitutional Court ruled that forms
had to be made
available in Afrikaans 'upon request'.

Keep in mind that the majority of rural Afrikaans speakers (coloured and
white) are
practicality English illiterate. Many forms were probably i) not filled
voluntarily but filled
according to the perceptions of census officers who are not trained
linguists, and
ii) were not filled at all by angry Afrikaners.

Ron asked:
>Where do the aboriginal "Khoi-San" fit in there, given that many (most?)
have become
Afrikaans speakers?  Are they >considered "black" if they are deemed "pure"
and "coloured"
if they are deemed "mixed"?

The Griqua are Khoi people. I tried to explain that the previous racial
categorization is still
applied, and as we speak.

Marco, I don't agree with:
>It is not more than natural that when the number of official languages
rises from two to twelve
(as has happened in SA), the number of second or third language speakers of
'colonial' languages
as Afrikaans and English declines.

On grassroots levels I experience the exact opposite (ja, Liza, almal wil
probeer!) In the higher
spheres of society all smaller languages are under treat by the state's
insistence on making South
Africa part of a global English world. Our unacceptably high school failure
rate is a direct
result of enforced one-language policies. You might want to read the new
bill on language usage and
promotion in official documentation. (See: PanSALB Act)

Ron:
>>I heard of one case in which a daughter was allowed to stay with her
"white" family only if she was
>>hired by them as a maid and lived in a separate building ...

I think that was another interpretation of the reality: I knew a family
close by ( the father was German
and the mother was of mixed decent) where one daughter was blond and
blue-eyed and went to a white
school, and the other was clearly of mixed decent and travelled daily with
my teacher friend to the Edenpark
High school in a coloured area.

Needless to say that my hair raise when people tag labels of white, coloured
(kleurling, Ron] or black. I don't understand the importance of focusing on
race when we talk language diversity and survival. This line of thought
simply perpetuates an old European mindset.

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Afrikaans

Baie dankie vir julle verduidelikinge, en vir die "verwarring op 'n hoër
niveau", Liza en Elsie!

Elsie:

> (kleurling, Ron]

Oeps! Ja, dankie.

> >>I heard of one case in which a daughter was allowed to stay with her
> "white" family only if she was
>>hired by them as a maid and lived in a separate building ...
>
> I think that was another interpretation of the reality:

What I explained was a well-publicized story in the world media (which
feasted on extreme absurdities of apartheid) in the 1970s.  Apparently the
system implied that the mother of the family had been unfaithful "in the
worst way."

Liza:
> Ron, jammer oor so oor politiek te praat! Nou, terug na tale toe!

Moenie om verskoning vra nie, Liza.  Politiek is oral, selfs in tale en
kulture.

Liza again:
> As you'll see there is no black! I guess they got lumped with "Other
Coloured"?

Isn't that because under apartheid "blacks" were not supposed to be citizens
of South Africa, were officially "guest workers" who were citizens of their
"homelands" ("Bantustans": Transkei, KwaZulu, Bophuthatswana, Ciskei, Venda,
Lebowa, Kangwane, Gazankulu, Qwaqwa, KwaNdebele ) to which they where
assigned on the basis of ethnicity?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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