LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.29 (01) [E/LS]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Jan Strunk <strunkjan at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.28 (04) [E]

Hello,

Heiko and Ron thank you very much.
I chose I stupid example. But you helped me clarify an
issue.

The question of whether "de Minschen all ehr Larm" is actually very
interesting
for my structural analysis of the X-s Y possessive vs. the X sien Y
possessive.

In my corpus, I found tons of examples like "all siene Kinner", "all hör
Glück", etc.
But so far I have only found one example where "all" appears in the X sien Y
construction,
namely: "de Minschen all ehr Larm". But this example is from a poem by
Eichendorff which
translated from German into Low Saxon in a pretty archaic style. So my main
question is
whether sticking an "all" between "de Minschen" and "ehr Larm" is natural
modern Low Saxon.
e.g. "Hinnerk all siene Kinner sünd nu in'e School.", etc.

A related question is whether you can do the same with the -s possessive
construction:
Can you say things like:

all Hinnerks Kinner  (meaning all of Hinnerk's children)
all mien Vadders Peer (meaning all of my father's horses)

or maybe
Hinnerks all Kinner (meaning all of Hinnerk's children)
mien Vadders all Peer (meaning all of my father's horses)

Helge, wu süht dat in dien Dialekt ut? Ik besinn mi dat bi ju dat -s faker
bruukt ward.
Kumpelmente un vüeln Dank!

Jan Strunk
jstrunk at stanford.edu

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Syntax

Moyen, Jan!

_De Minschen all ehr Larm_ sounds forced, i.e., rather marginal, to me.  The
rest, too, lies somewhere between marginal and ungrammatical.

> all Hinnerks Kinner  (meaning all of Hinnerk's children)
> all mien Vadders Peer (meaning all of my father's horses)
>
> or maybe
> Hinnerks all Kinner (meaning all of Hinnerk's children)
> mien Vadders all Peer (meaning all of my father's horses)

(1) _All Hinnerks Kinner_ and (2) _all mien Vadders Peer_ sound marginal,
strange, awkward to me, (3) _Hinnerks all Kinner_ and (4) _mien Vadders all
Peer_ completely ungrammatical.  To me, the only ways they sound acceptable
and natural would be the following:

(1) & (3) all de Kinner vun Hinnerk
(2) & (4) all de Peer vun mien Vadder

The use of _all_ seems to exclude alternative structures.

Hamburg dialect:

(1) & (3) all de (~ alle) Kinner von Hinnerk
(2) & (4) all de (~ alle) Pier von mien Vadder

Likewise in Hamburg Missingsch:

(1) & (3) alle Kinner von Hinnerk
(2) & (4) alle Ferde von mein Vad(d)er

Ungrammatical Missingsch:

*(1) & (3) alle Hinnerks Kinner | alle Hinnerk seine Kinner
*(2) & (4) alle mein Vad(d)ers Ferde | alle mein Vad(d)er seine Ferde

But grammatical Missingsch:

(1) & (3) Hinnerks Kinner | Hinnerk seine Kinner
(2) & (4) mein Vad(d)ers Ferde | mein Vad(d)er seine Ferde

I hope this is more helpful than confusing.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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