LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.01 (01) [E, A]

Sun Aug 1 19:37:07 UTC 2004

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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Onderwerp: "Etymology"
Van: "Kevin Caldwell" <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>

> The only word I recall being used in Lancashire dialect for a
> female horse was _mare_, the pronunciation of which was
> something like [mo":R] ( as if it had a German long o-Umlaut,
> and a very full r-sound, somewhat like the final
> American -r in some dialects). Exactly the same pronunciation would be
> used for _mayor_ of a town, and I often used to hear the same
> word used as a
> diminutive form of the name _Mary_.
>
> John Duckworth
> Preston, UK

Such pronunciations would fit right in in East Tennessee!

Kevin Caldwell (kcaldwell31 at comcast.net)

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Onderwerp: "Etymology"
Van: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>

It is only a hypothesis. In Westflemish we have the word "knuf", meaning
a sort of short nervous cough which persists.
Would there be a link between the smell and the reactions it provokes
(coughing?????)

denis dujardin

John wrote:

>Gabriele het gesê:
>
>
>
>>So why is it called "Knoblauch" in German, and "knoflook" in Dutch? Where
>>does the "knof/Knob" part come from, and what does it mean?
>>
>>
>
>Is it possible that the 'knob' refersw to nothing more than
>the knobby shape of the garlic head?
>
>(Ons sê knoffel in Afrikaans)

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Onderwerp: "Etymology"
Van: "Ruth & Mark Dreyer" <mrdreyer at lantic.net>

Dear Gabriele

> So why is it called "Knoblauch" in German, and "knoflook" in Dutch? Where
> does the "knof/Knob" part come from, and what does it mean?

I b'lieve the (mod)English translation for that would be 'knob-leek'
In Afrikaans we would say 'knoffel'

Yrs,
Mark

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Onderwerp: "Etymology"
Van: "Ruth & Mark Dreyer" <mrdreyer at lantic.net>

Dear Ron, Halls & All,

> 'hobby-horse' strictly speaking was a wooden horse's head on a
> stick that a morris dancer fastened round his waist; in my
> time, though, this word referred also to a rocking horse
> (a kind of child's toy).

It used to be that in English one referred to one's pet interest as 'my
hobby-horse'. Now that has just shortened to 'hobby'.
But in Afrikaans we still refer to it as 'my "stokperdtjie" ', a direct
translation for 'stick-horsie'.

I can imagine why 'hors' & its related forms have dropped from this end of
the W-N-Frankish language branch - it's far too close to our word for 'ox'
- 'os'.

Has anybody heard Stanly Holloway's priceless skit on 'Albert & the Lions'?
(--- his stick wi' t'oss's 'ead 'andle').
>
> Interestingly enough, this word _oss_, and _obby oss_ are not confined to
> the north of England. There is a traditional ceremony in
> Padstow, Cornwall
> (in the extreme, until relatively recently Celtic-speaking south west) on
> Mayday involving the _'obby 'oss_.

What do the Cornish call this? I believe in Whales it's called the 'Mari
Llwd' - 'white mare'?
>
> The only word I recall being used in Lancashire dialect for a f
> emale horse was _mare_, the pronunciation of which was something
> like [mo":R] ( as if it had a German long o-Umlaut, and a very
> full r-sound, somewhat like the final American -r in some dialects).
> Exactly the same pronunciation would be used
> for _mayor_ of a town, and I often used to hear the same word used as a
> diminutive form of the name _Mary_.

In S Africa the 'up-market' English also finds this hard to distinguish
(_me:r_). The rest of us say _me:@r_ for the female horse, & _mæi at r_ for
the First Citizen.

Meneer Halls,

In Suid Afrika gebruik ons 'stoet' net in teelverband, en dit met alle
diere. Die woord wat Nederlanders hiervoor gebruik is obseen en dalk
lasterlik bestempel! En die Afrikaans vir 'n wyfieperd is 'merrie'.

In South Africa we use the word 'stoet - stud' only in the context of
breeding, & that applied to all animals. The word that Nederlanders use in
this context is deemed obscene & perhaps actionable! & the Afrikaans for
female horse is 'merrie'.

Yrs,
Mark

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Onderwerp: "Etymology"
Van: "Ruth & Mark Dreyer" <mrdreyer at lantic.net>

Dear Douglas

> > >& is it true that the Germanic 'pfard, paard, perd' goes back to the
> > >Military Latin 'paraverada'?

> Wherever I've seen this etymology (including the OED, and Buck's
> IE synonym
> book) the ancestral word was Latin "paraveredus" meaning something like
> "extra post horse" > French "palefroy", Spanish "palafrén" (supposedly
> influenced by "freno" = "bit"), English "palfrey", etc., also > German
> "Pferd", Dutch "paard", etc., and English "prad".

I'm with you there, & it saddens me.
I, for my part, would like to believe that the Runic Eights go back to, or
rather descend from, a late Greek Alphabet - they certainly look like it. &
the as yet undeciphered Etruscan looks very runic indeed. Certainly the
landward trade between the Mediterranean & Northwest Europe, through or
around the Alps (for amber, jet, tin, furs & what-have-you) goes back very
far indeed. However, the surviving records show the Eights to be very
conservative, certainly as far as the names of the runes go. 'Peordh', sixth
of the second eitt, for 'P') derives from an institution that the Germans
can only have come in contact with some 500 years after I would like the
Runic Alphabet to have come into use. & if the Germans learned the alphabet
from the Latins, I would expect the runes to look a whole lot more like the
pre-Ciceroninan Latin than the Greek, which is not so. Oh, well!

Yrs, with thanks,
Mark

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Onderwerp: "Etymology"
Van: "Utz H. Woltmann" <uwoltmann at gmx.de>

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Etymology
>
>Haeng-Cho wrote above that in German _Stute_ (related to "stud") denotes a
>female horse.
>
>Which reminds me of a case of _Patentplatt_ (i.e., Lowlands Saxon (Low
>German) made up on the basis of German) in which someone referred
>to female horses as _Stuten_ (singular _Stuut_).  As far as I know,
>there is no such LS word for female horses, _falen-peyrd_ (<Fahlenpeerd>)
>being an authentic
>one.  A _stuut_ ([stu:t], plural _stuten_) is a sweet type of bread, a
>coffee cake, or a sweet bun, some sort of dessert bread.  (Isn't
>there also Dutch _stoet_ [same pronunciation] in this sense?)
>It occurs in several
>compounds, such as _stutendag_ 'holiday'.

Moin Ron,

another authentic word for a female horse (German: Stute) in LS is
_Tööt_, pl. _Töten_. I have also heard "Stuutpeerd" but I cannot find it
in dictionaries. Maybe it´s what you call _Patentplatt_.

Another German word for horse is _Ross_.  It´s still existing in the
idioms "Ross und Reiter" and "hoch zu Rosse" and also in the word
"Rossbratwurst" (German bratwurst made from horse meat, normally sold
per 3 pieces).

Kumpelmenten
Utz H. Woltmann

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Onderwerp: "Etymology"
Van: sam s claire <gamlhs at juno.com>

LLs:  Just a tidbit: 'Ger' and 'spear' were brought up which sparked my
curiosity.  My phonebook lists surnames, German and Spearman.
Sam

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Onderwerp: "Etymology"
Van: "Daniel Prohaska" <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>

John B a screfas:

>>Gabriele het gesê:

>>>So why is it called "Knoblauch" in German, and "knoflook" in
>>>Dutch? Where
>>>does the "knof/Knob" part come from, and what does it mean?

>>Is it possible that the 'knob' refersw to nothing more than the knobby
>>shape of the garlic head?

>>(Ons sê knoffel in Afrikaans)
>>Groetnis,

John and others,

My etymological dictionary says that <Knoblauch> goes back to the word
<Kloben> (orig. "something that is split apart") and <Lauch> "leek". The
/l/ was replaced by /n/ by way of dissimilation (also in MHG <kliuwel> =>
<kniuwel> => NHG <Knäuel>). A MHG form <klobelouh> and its early NHG
descendant <Kloblauch> appears to have been a dialectal alternative way
into the 18th century.

Dan

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