LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.16 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 16.AUG.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: language varieties

Dear all,

Some interesting debate going on. On the subject of
Bill Bryson writes in 'Mother Tongue':
"In .. a small corner of northern Germany, in the spur
of land connecting Schleswig-Holstein to Denmark, you
can sometimes hear .. what sounds eerily like a lost
dialect of English. Occasional snatches of it even
make sense, as when they say that the 'veather ist
cold' or inquire of the time by asking, 'What ist de
clock?' According to Prof Hubertus Menke, head
of the German Department at Kiel University, the
language is 'very close to the way people spoke in
Britain more than 1,000 years ago'."

While I accept some of the commentary about the
doubtfulness of closeness of links between Old/Modern
English & Frisian, there are clearly some. On the
Bryson quote, you still hear older people in
Northumberland say 'whet time ist? (What time is it?),
sometimes shortened to just 'time ist'.

The piece of land Bryson refers to is 'supposedly' the
area where the Angles came from [i.e. to North
England/Britain] according to ancient historian Bede.
If there is a distinctive dialect spoke in this region
then it could have some similarities with modern
Northumbrian, although I suspect that after 1500 years
of separate evolution this is doubtful. Anyone know
the precise dialect and can provide examples/vocab of
its use?

On the discussion 'thisen/thysen' etc, Northumbrians
use 'thisin/thisen' like our Dutch/Flemish friends to
mean 'this one'.

Keep ahaad,

Glenn

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hello, Glenn!

Since you suspect that ancient language varieties of the Angles are
concerned, perhaps varieties are involved that in the meantime are extinct.
Maybe others can tell us more about this and correct me.  This is what I
understand to be the case.

The Continental Anglians' (Angles') territory was north of the Saxon
territory, approximately in the Anglia (_Angeln_) area of today's Germany's
extreme north and possibly a little way north of it in the southernmost
region of Denmark's part of Jutland.  (In my usually and sometimes
offensively unconventional thinking, Germany's Schleswig-Holstein is a part
of Jutland.)  These areas have long been "transitional" in that ethnicities
and languages have been meeting, overlapping and blending there, and
linguistic and cultural overlaps have been created between at least three
languages: Lowands Saxon ("Low German" = West Germanic), North Frisian (West
Germanic) and Southern Jutish (North Germanic), in more recent times with
the addition of German and Danish.  They have more or less influenced each
other.  The former two have taken on North Germanic features, and the latter
has taken on West Germanic (even rather un-Scandinavian) features.
Furthermore, in recent times, on both sides of the border, local German has
added Jutish/Danish influences to Lowlands Saxon ones, and local Danish has
added German influences to Jutish and Lowlands Saxon ones.

I don't think that anyone is sure what the language of the Continental
Anglians (Angles) exactly was.  Or is anyone?  Perhaps it was very closely
related to that of the neighboring Saxons.  At any rate, if it was truly
distinct at one time, it must have become extinct in the meantime, possibly
absorbed into northernmost Saxon and/or southernmost Jutish.  It doesn't
help that since Christianization first Saxon and then German came to
dominate on what is now the German side of the border (and in Denmark's
"German" minority communities), and little Denmark has a history of
disappearing minority languages, apparently first Frisian (going by Frisian
place names in the extreme south) and then Lowlands Saxon ("Low German").
So, who knows? People in that area are known for being bi- and
multi-lingual, so language loss seems more likely when intermarriage or
political dissociation causes people to favor one language over an other.

What is now _wedder_ ['vEd3`] in LS and _vejr_ in Danish, namely the word
for 'weather', may very well have been pronounced ['vED3`] (with [ð], a "th"
sound as in "this" and "weather") not too long ago, in now extinct dialects
that were in contacts with Jutish/Danish.

I would really love to find out what, if anything, is known of the older
language varieties of the Anglians of both the Continent and Britain.  Do
early Anglian texts give us any real clues.

Also, since Northumbrian is said to be mostly based on Anglian, can the same
be said of Scots, its neighbor and close relative?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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