LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.17 (05) [E]

Tue Aug 17 15:32:06 UTC 2004

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: john feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Language varieties

"Anglo-Saxon or Old English is not Low German". Discuss.

Mark asked for clarification of my last posting on this subject. For
simplicity I will try to re-state my views unambiguously.

The issue is purely one of definition, of the meanings conventionally
attached to the terms.

"Low German" is the name given to a group of languages and/or dialects which
arose mainly in what we now call Northern Germany, whose principal ancestor
is Old Saxon, and whose modern forms remain largely confined to this area
despite a geographically wide use of Middle Low German during the Hanseatic
League period.

"Old English", formerly called "Anglo-Saxon" is the name given to the group
of languages and/or dialects which arose in England and what we now call
Southern Scotland following the invasion of this area by tribes from the
near Continent who spoke a variety of West Germanic languages. Its
subsequent development led to Modern English.

Each of these definitions excludes the other.

As far as I know there is no term for Low German and English, or Old Saxon
and Old English, taken together. I suggest that no need has been found for
either.

Given that the issue is a matter of definitions, the mutual intelligibility
of the languages concerned and their intelligibility to speakers of other
languages are irrelevant, though these things are evidently interesting in
their own right.

John Feather
johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Language varieties

Dear Sandy,

Thanks for the comments. I wasn't making claims that
'ist' is necessarily directly linked to other
languages, just pointing out the use of the word in
Northumberland. I take your point about shortening.
However 'ist' is used in other contexts, although very
rarely now. I recall a member of our society saying
that a Danish person had initially confused her for a
fellow countryman when using this phrase, I forget to
context now.  Like Scots we have virtually the same
shortened phrases. Most people today would say 'whet
time is id', so it's interesting that the phrase is
now lengthened. This may suggest that 'ist' is an
older form, how old is a subject for scholarly debate,
which I'm not sufficiently qualified to engage in.

Yours aye,
Keep ahaad,
Glenn

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.16 (08) [E]

Gary Taylor wrote:
"It's [weather] a nice word as it seems to have stayed more or
less consistent throughout the Lowland area (and further afield in the other
Germanic dialects - (Scandinavian and High German/Yiddish areas) - there's
not many words which are consistently cognate
throughout the Germanic speaking areas whilst still retaining their original
meanings. It's also a good Indo-European word having cognates in Lithuanian
and Slavonic, although with the meaning 'wind'."

Where does the phrase "weather the storm" come in? It seems to use _weather_
to imply duration, time. The English form of _erosion_, _weathering_, is a
conflation of the effects of the elements with a passage of time. I
conjecture from my own experience with Celtic languages that there was
originally little difference between the weather and the time. In Breton and
Cornish _amzer_ and _amser_ respectively both mean "time". In Irish,
_aimsir_ means "weather" and the root _am_ means "time" in the English
sense. I embarrassed myself greatly while learning Irish by thanking people
for their weather rather than their time because of interference from my
Cornish.

So: whither _weather_ in the sense of _time_ in the Germanic languages? And
for that matter, why does English use _time_ while every other Germanic
language uses a cognate of _tide_ (D. _tijd_, Ger. _zeit_) to express
duration?

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Gary Taylor wrote:
"It's [weather] a nice word as it seems to have stayed more or
less consistent throughout the Lowland area (and further afield in the other
Germanic dialects - (Scandinavian and High German/Yiddish areas) - there's
not many words which are consistently cognate
throughout the Germanic speaking areas whilst still retaining their original
meanings. It's also a good Indo-European word having cognates in Lithuanian
and Slavonic, although with the meaning 'wind'."

Where does the phrase "weather the storm" come in? It seems to use _weather_
to imply duration, time. The English form of _erosion_, _weathering_, is a
conflation of the effects of the elements with a passage of time. I
conjecture from my own experience with Celtic languages that there was
originally little difference between the weather and the time. In Breton and
Cornish _amzer_ and _amser_ respectively both mean "time". In Irish,
_aimsir_ means "weather" and the root _am_ means "time" in the English
sense. I embarrassed myself greatly while learning Irish by thanking people
for their weather rather than their time because of interference from my
Cornish.

So: whither _weather_ in the sense of _time_ in the Germanic languages? And
for that matter, why does English use _time_ while every other Germanic
language uses a cognate of _tide_ (D. _tijd_, Ger. _zeit_) to express
duration?

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Críostóir.

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