LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.17 (10) [A/E/Yiddish]

Tue Aug 17 23:53:27 UTC 2004

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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Language Varieties

Hello, Lowlanders!

Críostóir asked:

"Why does English use _time_ while every other Germanic language uses a
cognate of _tide_ (D. _tijd_, Ger. _zeit_) to express duration?"

I think the answer to this is that at some point English found itself with
two words for time - a Norse one, and an Anglo-Saxon one.The Old Norse word
was _ tími _ , and the Old English _ tíd _.

Críostóir also asked:

"So: whither _weather_ in the sense of _time_ in the Germanic languages?"

I am not sure I totally understand what you refer to here, but I imagine it
must go back to what you said about the English verb _to weather_ .It is a
curious transitive use, but I don't think it denotes so much spending time
as enduring the ravages of the inclement weather. It does not require a
great leap of imagination to get from the simple noun _weather_ to the verb
meaning 'enduring the weather'. It is akin to the verb _to water_ ( _is he
fed and watered?_), or the verb _to winter_, meaning 'to spend / endure the
winter'.

John Duckworth
Preston, UK

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From: John Baskind <jbaskind at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.17 (04) [E]

John Feather  het agtuur vanoggend geskrfyf:

> John Baskin says that "Hals- und Beinbruch" could not have evolved from
> Yiddish or Hebrew. He cites the Yiddish form "brochuh v' hatzlochuh".
> But I
> have seen it transcribed as "hazlocho weBrocho", which clearly (to my
> eyes)
> represents the same words in a different order. In both versions the
> forms
> of the words are the same so presumably they are grammatically
> equivalent.
> Is John saying that the phrase could not have existed in the form
> required
> to produce "Hals- und Beinbruch" or that it is a conventional phrase
> which
> simply did not exist in this form?

John Baskind sê hieroor:

Ek vra verskoning om hier so aan te gaan oor 'n vak wat nie meeer
Laelands-betrokke is nie, maar ek belowe dat ek dit nie weer sal doen
nie.

I am only a dilettante linguist, mind you, but as I understand it there
needs to be at least a marginal correlation between auditory
representation and semantic content  in language A to produce a related
phrase in language B.

Ron's note of yesterday explains that bruch/bruche made its way into
one, now extinct, dialect. Ron doesn't say this, but I am assuming that
in this dialect bruch or bruche meant luck. Polish Yiddish, BTW will
bronounce 'bróch' (the kometz-aleph) as 'bruch' like the composer Ernst
Bruch, so there may well be a sonic correlation between the Polish
Yiddish  bruch = blessed and the German(ic) bruch =  break, but the
semantic content is worlds apart.

It seems to me far more reasonable that the phrase "beak a leg" (which
is where this thread started, i believe)  migrated into theatrical
English in New York's 1920s Yiddish Theater (where on Second Avenue,
the Deutsche Verein building is only a block or two from the great 2nd
Avenue Theater.) German was at that time the most common second
language of the US, and some of the Yiddish Theater luminaries were
graduates of the Berlin Gymnasiums, where children of affluent Polish
and Russian Jews could escape the Russian educational quotas. (My
Moscow-born paternal grandmother was always proud of her "Berlin
German", learned at Gymnasium in Berlin, and German was the first
language in my grandparents'  home in Johannesburg, so this is not
apocryphal information.)

Add to that  theatrical superstitions (don't whistle, say good luck or
mention the Scottish Play by name backstage) and Bob's yer uncle.

Dis nóg 'n effens stoute en baie genotsame woordspiel, wat myn insiens
net my argument versterk.

Mag ek voorstel, John, dat hierdie gesprek beter gevorder mag wees
tussen ons twee, af-lys?

Groetnis,
John Baskind <jbaskind at mac.com>

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Etymology

Džon, haynt hot ir gevunen dem goldenen štern fun Lowlands-L far ayere gute
opfirung.  Ix hob gedarft gorništ zogn, un ir zent geven der, vos hot aleyn
gezogt, mir veln gedarft oyslosn dos diskutiern vegn a teme, vos gehert ništ
oyf undzere rešime.  Molodec!

John Baskind is the fortunate (perhaps even pround?) recipient of today's
Lowlands-L Golden Star for exemplary conduct as a member, specifically for
self-restraint, for knowing what does and does not belong to this forum and
acting accordingly without the "baas" reigning folks in.  Bravo!

Met vriendlike groete van die blye lisbaas,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: I suppose I should actually create merit certificates for exemplary
conduct, so that thusly decorated members have something to show for and at
the same time can decorate their walls.

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