LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.18 (01) [E]

Wed Aug 18 15:13:25 UTC 2004

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L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.17 (14) [E]

>From: John Baskind <jbaskind at mac.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2004.08.17 (02) [E]
>
>Op Augustus 17 skryf Ron:
>
>>I personally feel that in the sense of 'to pull', 'to draw', _trekken_
>>connotes a vigorous movement, even 'to drag' (similar to _slepen_),
>>while
>>_te(g)en_ connotes, at least has the potential to connote, a gentler
>>movement.  I would _trek_ a box out from the closet or _trek_ a
>>struggling
>>child into the house, but I would _te_ (<teh>) threads out of a
>>garment or
>>herbs out of the soil (but I would _trek_ handfuls of mature, tough
>>weeds
>>out of the soil).  _Up-te(g)en_ for 'to raise (a child)' thus implies a
>>sense of gentleness.
>
>te(gen) = English tug, perhaps? Much gentler than "pull".
>
>John Baskind
>mailto:jbaskind at mac.com
>
>----------
>
>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Semantics
>
>Ons John (above):
>
>>te(gen) = English tug, perhaps? Much gentler than "pull".
>
>It's the cognate of German _ziehen_, Yiddish ציען _cien_, Gothic _tiuhan_,
>and Old English _tēon_.  I don't think there is a Modern English cognate,
>but I'm not at all sure.
>
'tee'  is  now  obsolete  but  'tie'  from  OE  'tígan'  is  a  related
word

>Apparently, "tug" comes from Middle English _togge_ ~ _tugge_ which is
>derived from Germanic _teuh-_ from which also "tow" is derived.

Both tow and tug are from OE togian, also related to téon  which lost
its medial /x~G/ *téohan (though it did keep it in tenses and past
participle)

>Just a second!  Might _te(g)en_ be related to Modern English _tag_, which
is
>of uncertain origin?  Note _te(g)en_ > _tagen_, German _ziehen_ >
_gezogen_,
>etc., with a somewhat "shy" /g/.
>
>Kumpelmenten,
>Reinhard/Ron

Is te(g)en related to Scandinavian 'tagg' ?

tag (1) - "small hanging piece," 14c., perhaps from a Scand. source (cf.
Norw. tagg "point, prong," Sw. tagg "prickle, thorn") cognate with tack.
Meaning "label" is first recorded 1835. Slang verb "to write graffiti in
public places" is 1980s. To tag along is first recorded 1900.
tag (2) - "children's game," 1738, perhaps a variation of Scot. tig
"touch, tap" (1721), probably an alteration of M.E. tek "touch, tap"
(see tick (2)).

David Barrow

----------

From: Dave Singleton <davidsin at pt.lu>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.17 (10) [E]

On 17 Aug 2004 at 16:53, Lowlands-L wrote:

> From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: Language Varieties
>
>
> Hello, Lowlanders!
>
> Críostóir asked:
>
> "Why does English use _time_ while every other Germanic language uses a
> cognate of _tide_ (D. _tijd_, Ger. _zeit_) to express duration?"
>
> I think the answer to this is that at some point English found itself
> with
> two words for time - a Norse one, and an Anglo-Saxon one.The Old Norse
> word
> was _ tími _ , and the Old English _ tíd _.

Is this where the expression
"Time and tide waits for no man" came from, or is it merely a Hollywood
"make up" to give the impression of old language ??

Dave Singleton

----------

From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.17 (10) [A/E/Yiddish]

John Duckworth wrote:
"I think the answer to this is that at some point English found itself with
two words for time - a Norse one, and an Anglo-Saxon one."

Yet English can use _tide_ to mean _time_ in certain (archaic and usually
poetic) instances (e.g., _yuletide_ and _Christmastide_). So, I presume, the
Norse and Old English cognates jostled for favour for a long period. The
_tide_ examples cited above seem to date from the Victorian era, when the
marriage of Victoria and Albert brought unprecedented German cultural
influence onto upper-class metropolitan culture - the Christmas tree, for
instance. Could _tide_ thus be a romantic calque from German _zeit_ in this
case, and not so old after all?

John Duckworth also wrote:
"I am not sure I totally understand what you refer to here, but I imagine it
must go back to what you said about the English verb _to weather_ .It is
acurious transitive use, but I don't think it denotes so much spending time
as enduring the ravages of the inclement weather. It does not require a
great leap of imagination to get from the simple noun _weather_ to the verb
meaning 'enduring the weather'."

I did not make myself clear. Sorry. The question I was trying to ask was why
there is no confusion of time and the weather in Germanic languages in the
same way there is in Celtic languages, where the two terms are (or have
been) interchangeable. In citing _to weather_ I was showing that there have
been linkages between the two in Germanic languages, although they are rare
and indpependent developments.

Go raibh maith agat,

Críostóir.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Críostóir:

> Yet English can use _tide_ to mean _time_ in certain (archaic and usually
poetic)
> instances (e.g., _yuletide_ and _Christmastide_). So, I presume, the Norse
and
> Old English cognates jostled for favour for a long period.

And to make it even more interesting, _time_ means 'hour' in North Germanic
(Dan. _time_, Norw. _time_, Swed. _timma_), while _tid_ means 'time'.  But
Old Norse uses _tími _ in the sense of 'time', such as in 'seven times'
(where Modern Scandinavian uses _gang_, _gång_, _gong_, etc.), and Modern
Icelandic uses _tími _ in the sense of 'period', 'term', so 'length of
time', often to be translated as 'time' into English (e.g., _endingartími _
'lifetime', _ferðatími_ 'travel time', _heimstími_ 'Greenwich Meantime',
_líftími_ 'lifetime', 'useful life', but then again _vinnutími_ 'work
hours', and _klukkutíma_ ("clock time") 'hour'.

As far as I know, _tid(e)_ can also mean 'time' in Scots, especially
"opportune time," if I got that right.

Lowlands Saxon (Low German) uses the same word for 'time' and '(ocean)
tide': _tyd_ (<Tied> [ti:t], feminine, plural _tyden_ <Tieden> ['ti:dn]).
You can usually tell from context what is meant.   German borrowed it in its
older form _tyde_ to become _Tiede_ in the sense of "tide," while German
_Zeit_ means 'time'.  Instead of the plural form _Tieden_ 'tides' you can
also use the German word _Gezeiten_.  (German borrowed from LS tons of words
that pertain to maritime and nautical matters.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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