LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.19 (06) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 19.AUG.2004 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Daniel Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.18 (04) [E]


John Feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

 >>I think I'd like to hear from other people on the subject of Old English,

>>Old Saxon and Low German. In particular

 >>a) do my definitions of OE and LG seem reasonable?

 Well in my opinion any Ingvaeonic model would have to include Old Saxon,
Old English and Old Frisian. The “Anglo-Frisian” unity that has been
supported for so long can only be assumed for a later period in which Old
Saxon has lost its Ingvaeonic features owing to strong inland linguistic
features encroaching upon it.

 >>b) is there a need for a term to cover OS and OE? My feeling is that if

>>we've got this far without one there probably isn't.

 There is a term and it will always have to include OF (Old Frisian) as
well. It is “North-Sea Germanic” or “Ingvaeonic”. A study of the chronology
of innovations in all three varieties shows that no two languages are closer
or further related at the time before the emigration to Britain. They
appeared to have been a dialect continuum with Frisian, Saxon, Anglian, and
Jutish dialects forming a continuum.

 >>Some key points which seem to me to emerge from all this are:

>>1. There are lots of different ways of comparing the similarity of

>>languages.

 I agree. But if you want to find a generically closely related language you
have to look into an earlier period of common development. Many similarities
between ModE and ModF dialects are owing to secondary developments.

 >>2. A conscientious person ought to take into account as many as possible

>>and not just the ones which support his/her views.

 I agree.

 >>3. It is important to define the degree of similarity where cognates are

>>concerned.

 Yes, especially their early forms and how long innovations were shared.

 >>4. The basis of frequency statistics should be defined - type of speech
or

>>text, whether one is counting a given word once or each time it appears,

>>etc.

 Yes.

 >>5. It is important to distinguish fundamental and superficial

>>characteristics of languages.

 Yes.

 >>In relation to this last point, English speakers find structures like
"The

>>on the mat sitting cat was purring" very "Germanic". But we have the

>>essentially same structure in "The cat sitting on the mat was purring".

>>This is actually a major point of similarity between the languages which

>>many others lack.

 Reinhard/Ron <sassisch at yahoo.com>

 >>Since you suspect that ancient language varieties of the Angles are

>>concerned, perhaps varieties are involved that in the meantime are

>>extinct. Maybe others can tell us more about this and correct me.  This is

>>what I understand to be the case.

 I believe the pre- emigration coastal Germanic (i.e. Invaeonic) dialects to
have formed a continuum, much like today’s continental lowland languages,
though the degree of mutual intelligibility was probably a lot higher than
it is today. But emigrants seemed to have left certain areas for whatever
reasons – failure of crops and subsequent famine, opportunity or a general
trend or fad. It has been stated that large portions of the continental
coastal regions were abandoned on the 5th to the 6th centuries, which would
fit exactly into the picture of a large scale emigration. There will have
been other areas where fewer emigrated.

 I believe the Old English dialects do go back to separate early settlements
each with a dialect levelling typical for colonial languages. But most of
the distinguishing features will have developed after emigration. I believe
it to be very implausible that a certain dialect was transplanted to the
colony unchanged.

 >>I would really love to find out what, if anything, is known of the older

>>language varieties of the Anglians of both the Continent and Britain.  Do

>>early Anglian texts give us any real clues.

 In the linguistic sense I don’t believe there was a ‘continental Anglian’,
but rather a group of dialects that levelled to form the colonial variety we
came to know as Anglian.

 >>Also, since Northumbrian is said to be mostly based on Anglian, can the

>>same be said of Scots, its neighbor and close relative?

 Scots is one of the languages that developed from Anglian or on an Anglian
base, whereas English is developed from a Saxon base with a very large
adstrate of Anglian.

 Dan

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From: GoodbyColumbus at aol.com <GoodbyColumbus at aol.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.19 (02) [E]

Sorry to perhaps go out of bounds on this, but thinking of this "weather"
and "time/tide" connection, I think of French, "le temps" , meaning both
weather and time.

Brad

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