LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.19 (09) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 19.AUG.2004 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.19 (06) [E]

 From: Daniel Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>Subject: LL-L "Language
varieties" 2004.08.18 (04) [E]  John Feather
<johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:  >>I think I'd like to hear
from other people on the subject of Old English,   Old Saxon and Low German.
In particular        >>a) do my definitions of OE and LG seem reasonable?
Well in my opinion any Ingvaeonic model would have to include Old Saxon,Old
English and Old Frisian. The “Anglo-Frisian” unity that has beensupported
for so long can only be assumed for a later period in which OldSaxon has
lost its Ingvaeonic features owing to strong inland linguisticfeatures
encroaching upon it.  >>b) is there a need for a term to cover OS and OE? My
feeling is that if   we've got this far without one there probably isn't.
There is a term and it will always have to include OF (Old Frisian) aswell.
It is “North-Sea Germanic” or “Ingvaeonic”. A study of the chronologyof
innovations in all three varieties shows that no two languages are closeror
further related at the time before the emigration to Britain. Theyappeared
to have been a dialect continuum with Frisian, Saxon, Anglian, andJutish
dialects forming a continuum.  >>Some key points which seem to me to emerge
from all this are:1. There are lots of different ways of comparing the
similarity of      languages.      I agree. But if you want to find a
generically closely related language youhave to look into an earlier period
of common development. Many similaritiesbetween ModE and ModF dialects are
owing to secondary developments.  >>2. A conscientious person ought to take
into account as many as possible and not just the ones which support his/her
views.      I agree.  >>3. It is important to define the degree of
similarity where cognates are concerned.      Yes, especially their early
forms and how long innovations were shared.  >>4. The basis of frequency
statistics should be defined - type of speechor text, whether one is
counting a given word once or each time it appears,       etc.        Yes.
>>5. It is important to distinguish fundamental and superficial
characteristics of languages.        Yes.  >>In relation to this last point,
English speakers find structures like"The on the mat sitting cat was
purring" very "Germanic". But we have the       essentially same structure
in "The cat sitting on the mat was purring".       This is actually a major
point of similarity between the languages which       many others lack.
Reinhard/Ron <sassisch at yahoo.com>  >>Since you suspect that ancient language
varieties of the Angles are concerned, perhaps varieties are involved that
in the meantime are       extinct. Maybe others can tell us more about this
and correct me.  This is       what I understand to be the case.        I
believe the pre- emigration coastal Germanic (i.e. Invaeonic) dialects
tohave formed a continuum, much like today’s continental lowland
languages,though the degree of mutual intelligibility was probably a lot
higher thanit is today. But emigrants seemed to have left certain areas for
whateverreasons – failure of crops and subsequent famine, opportunity or a
generaltrend or fad. It has been stated that large portions of the
continentalcoastal regions were abandoned on the 5th to the 6th centuries,
which wouldfit exactly into the picture of a large scale emigration. There
will havebeen other areas where fewer emigrated.  I believe the Old English
dialects do go back to separate early settlementseach with a dialect
levelling typical for colonial languages. But most ofthe distinguishing
features will have developed after emigration. I believeit to be very
implausible that a certain dialect was transplanted to thecolony unchanged.
>>I would really love to find out what, if anything, is known of the older
language varieties of the Anglians of both the Continent and Britain.  Do
early Anglian texts give us any real clues.        In the linguistic sense I
don’t believe there was a ‘continental Anglian’,but rather a group of
dialects that levelled to form the colonial variety wecame to know as
Anglian.  >>Also, since Northumbrian is said to be mostly based on Anglian,
can the same be said of Scots, its neighbor and close relative?        Scots
is one of the languages that developed from Anglian or on an Anglianbase,
whereas English is developed from a Saxon base with a very largeadstrate of
Anglian.  Dan I thought Modern English developed out of Mercian, which like
Northumbrian is a subdivision of Anglian

David Barrow



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