LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.20 (02) [A/E]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: ezinsser at icon.co.za <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.19 (07) [A/E]

Haai Laaglanders,

John s/vra:

> A few Afrikaans equivalents of the Flemish (which I learned in
> Linguistics 1 was Afrikaans' closest relative) terms above. The
> differences and contractions  are interesting, as are the phrases >
> which have, perhaps, disappeared from Afrikaans. Perhaps someone can
> enlighten me/correct my assumptions? (Linguistics 1 was 34 years
> ago)

@somtyds - occasionally
-> aktief
@destyds - at that time, [a while ago]
-> die eerste is aktief maar "a while ago" beteken nie heeltemal dieselfde
nie (dis langer
in die verlede).
@intussen[tyd] - meanwhile
-> aktief verkort na "intussen".
@altyd - always
-> aktief
@Watter tyd is dit OR  hoe laat is dit -  What's the time
-> die vorm "WAT is die tyd" word as 'n anglisisme beskou (leenvertaling)
terwyl die vorm
"hoe laat is dit" aktief is.
@'koerant'
-> newspaper
@'tydskrif' - periodical - "magazine"

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser

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From: Liza du Plooy <lizaduplooy at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.19 (07) [E]


John wrote:
"A few Afrikaans equivalents of the Flemish(which I learned in
Linguistics 1 was Afrikaans' closest relative) terms above. The
differences and contractions are interesting, as are the phrases which
have, perhaps, disappeared from Afrikaans. Perhaps someone can
enlighten me/correct my assumptions? (Linguistics 1 was 34 years ago)

somtyds - occasionally
destyds - at that time, a while ago
intussentyd - meanwhile
altyd - always
Watter tyd is dit OR hoe laat is dit - What's the time

--We also say 'koerant' - newspaper and 'tydskrif' - periodical"

John! Ek is geskok! Watter tyd is dit is 'n anglisisme! Tsk tsk.

Hier is nog 'n paar uitdrukkings wat met tyd te doen het:

oestyd = harvest time
betyds = ontime
net betyds = just in time
getye = ocean tides
goeie tydings = good tidings
etenstyd = time to eat
slaaptyd = bed time
in die ou tyd = in the olden days
tydig = ? Not sure about the exact meaning of this one, it's not a word I
use often. Help?

Liza du Plooy

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From: john feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology

I don't recall anyone considering how "tide" came to mean the regular rise
and fall of the sea. The word in this meaning could be a borrowing. German
"Tide" is from Middle Dutch via Low German (Duden). A lot of seafaring
vocabulary is Dutch and Frisian. It could have been borrowed into English,
helping to displace "tide" in the sense of "time", leaving only the
combining form "-tide" with this meaning.

Where did the MDu word come from? De Vries suggests ModDu "tij" (from older
"getijde" - he doesn't mention MDu "tide") originally had the meaning
"time", as in E "-tide", signifying a fixed time or a church festival.
Because tides occur at regular times, the word was also applied to them. But
there still seems to be something missing.

In Eng "-tide" was used for seasons - "springtide" - and times of day -
"eventide" - as well as festivals and, presumably, for the *ebbtide and
*floodtide, times when the ebb and flow occurred. In the general language
there was competition between "time" and "tide" in the sense "time", and
"tide" lost out, becoming more and more confined to the combining form.
Plausibly, this restriction of its syntactic scope paved the way
for a change of meaning and "*ebbtide" and "*floodtide" were reinterpreted
as meaning the phenomena themselves rather than the time at which they
happened, and reanalysed to give "tide" on its own a new meaning. This sort
of shift is not uncommon. We could therefore imagine that "tide" in its new
sense arose in English and was borrowed into Dutch.

It would _tidy_ things up if we knew which of these possibilities was
correct.

In the phrase "time and tide" does "tide" refer to the sea or is this just
the use of two words meaning "time" in a common English form of duplication
("hue and cry", "hum and haw")?

John Feather
johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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