LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.22 (01) [E]

Sun Aug 22 18:30:31 UTC 2004

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 22.AUG.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.21 (04) [E]

Dear John Feather

Subject: Language varieties

> I've just found out that at some point there was an orthographic revision
of
> the King James Bible. The most obvious change is the consistent use of "v"
> as a consonant and "u" as a vowel. The sample I have is from Luke 15, vv
> 35-32 (the return of the prodigal son) and some 1611 spellings are
> sonne/musicke & dauncing/ calfe/goe/Loe/yeeres/doe/mee/soone/meete/againe.
> Apart from u/v I don't think this version is much harder to read than the
> current one.

I'd purely love to have an old King James - a Tyndale too, for that matter,
but even in my dreams I know there is a limit to my ambitions. I would also
appreciate a Cranmer 'Book of Common Prayer,' his last version. My old
Authorised Version has content that escapes so many of the new translations,
from parallel study in Hebrew. Those old men were scholars indeed, & the
most recent translators slip occasionally. They were lazy.
None the less, to my mind, English in its finest form is manifest in the
book, 'The Cloud of Unknowing & the Book of Privy Councilling' edited by
Phyllis Hodgson for the Early English Text Society, By the Oxford University
Press. Now there is Language!

> The 'o'clock' thing gets more complicated. Chambers dates it only from
1720,
> from 'of the clock' (1647). If so, what did Shakespeare really write?

Julius Caeser, Act II SceneIV.
(the soothsayer enters)
PORTIA. Come hither, fellow: Which way hast thou been?
SOOTHSAYER. At mine own house, Good Lady.
PORTIA. What is't o'clock?
SOOTHSAYER. About the ninth hour, Lady.
(Bantam Books - New York)

Yrs Sincerely,
Mark

----------

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Language varieties" [E]

> From: simon <simon at putitinabin.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.20 (04) [E]
>
> I come from Southampton (not far from Portsmouth) where the local accent
> doesn't use the usual southern pronunciations: 'barth' for bath or
'glarss'
> instead of glass etc but something more like 'baath' and 'glaass' ie a

Not "baaf"? This th > f is the one very non-WestCountry accent feature I
always notice in Southampton.

> longer 'a'. It's always struck me that this was a little more like the
> American pronunciation of the letter 'a' than other English accents. Just
a
> thought.

I always say that the main characterictics of American English speech are
derived from the southwestern dialects of England (Somerset, Dorset,
Wiltshire, Gloucestershire, Hampshire and some of Oxfordshire) so it doesn't
surprise me.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: Stella en Henno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.18 (04) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Hi from the peanut gallery, John!
>
> Just for the sake of early correctness, the name of the North Frisian
> dialect in question is "Fering" (German often _Fehring_, older _Vehring_,
> also _Föhring_).  So it has a long "e" (['fe:riN]).  The island (_Föhr_ in
> German) is _Feer_ in Fering.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

I did a course in Fering Frisian (years ago) and I spoke some Fering on
"ynterfryske moetings" with native speakers. They do say [fErIng]
themselves, with rolling r and short [E]. Indeed the name of the island is
"Feer" with long e, but Frisian dialects tend to have a lot of shortening of
long vowels (and lengthening of short ones, too, which is confusing to
speakers of other varieties: like "beed" ynstead of bed in Fering, cf. West
Frisian "bêd" [bE:d]), and the name of the dialect has a shortened form. In
my impression, Fering is easier to learn for West Frisians than many other
North Frisian varieties, as it is phonologically closer (quite
conservative). It's a lovely language!

Regards

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: Stella en Henno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.19 (06) [E]

> From: Daniel Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.18 (04) [E]
>
> John Feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>  >>I think I'd like to hear from other people on the subject of Old
English,
>
> >>Old Saxon and Low German. In particular
>
>  >>a) do my definitions of OE and LG seem reasonable?
>
>  Well in my opinion any Ingvaeonic model would have to include Old Saxon,
> Old English and Old Frisian. The “Anglo-Frisian” unity that has been
> supported for so long can only be assumed for a later period in which Old
> Saxon has lost its Ingvaeonic features owing to strong inland linguistic
> features encroaching upon it.

I agree with this. Texts like the Heliand have many Ingvaeonic features that
later dialects have lost, although in some dialects there are still relics
of more extensive n-dropping before fricatives ("oes" for "ons" in Drente
dialects eg.).
There are also some morphological traits (collision of 3rd and 4th case,
some plurals, like a preference for -s plurals, participia without ge-) and
words (like "kaai/key" vs "sleutel"; Loefstedt has a long list of these),
which point to many contacts.
[knip]

>  >>I would really love to find out what, if anything, is known of the
older
>
> >>language varieties of the Anglians of both the Continent and Britain.
Do
>
> >>early Anglian texts give us any real clues.

>  In the linguistic sense I don’t believe there was a ‘continental Anglian’
,
> but rather a group of dialects that levelled to form the colonial variety
we
> came to know as Anglian.

I've read in a book by Joergensen on Island North Frisian, which has some
old differences with the mainland varieties, that he believed the islanders
to be a relic of the older Anglians that would have moved to the islands
around the 6th century. But this is speculation, I suppose.

Regards,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: language varieties

Dear Ron,

"The Lancashire dialect seems to share some features
with Northumbrian  and with (Borders) Scots, unless I
am deluding myself".

Your right! We're all part of the northern dialect
area. The Cumbrian dialect is also very similar to
Lancastrian. However, we're all on the ropes as the
language(s) is dying out fast.

On the issue of the origins of English and links with
old saxon etc, I've been doing research & it seems
clear that modern English (as some contributors have
said) is more closely related to Anglian than saxon,
although there are overlaps of course. The Angles
themselves came from what is now Denmark and the
border area of Germany. The Anglian tongue itself also
appears to have emerged from old scandanavian or is
strongly influenced by it. Of course late-old English
and middle English were also heavily influenced by
Dane and Norse. Just makes you wonder whether
English/Northumbrian etc is really part of the
lowlands region? Perhaps we should be examining links
with our scandanavian cousins a lot more than is the
case. Just thrown this into the melting pot.

Oh, the influence of Frisian also seems to be down
played.

Keep ahaad,
Glenn

----------

From: john feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Language varieties

John Duckworth's question about 'she' and cats:

I'm not sure within what bounds it was thought improper to refer to a woman
as 'she' but I believe the taboo applied throughout the country. It
therefore has nothing to do with the pronunciation of the word. I suspect
the long vowel represented quotation marks.

Mark mentioned forms of address in Afrikaans. It seems to me that we accept
too simply that the second person sing/pl is the form used for this purpose
(with 3 pl in German). There is also the medico-patronising "we": "And how
are we today?" And the grovelling third person: "Would Madam care to see a
different pair of shoes?" "As Your Lordship pleases." "Your Majesty." In
Swedish the hyper-polite form is used for professional people: "Would the
lawyer care for another boiled potato?" I assume there is a social skill in
deciding who is deserving of this form of address. How common are these and
similar forms in the Lowlands languages?

Grietje's point about Portsmouth:

Portsmouth was and is principally a naval dockyard, but Southampton is just
round the corner and the 'Mayflower' sailed from there in 1620. I think,
though, that Southampton only became a major port after the railway arrived
because until then it was in the middle of nowhere, as we say.

John Feather
johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

----------

From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Language Varieties

Concerning the two Lancashire dialect poems I presented to the list, David
asked:

"I'd be interested in how the 'eaw'  which appears in several words is
pronounced."

You would get a good approximation of this sound _eaw_ (as long as you are
not from Australia or New Zealand) if you make the _e_ of _bet_ and follow
it with _w_. It sounds to me like the Dutch _ui_ sound, by the way, as in
_Spui_.

The orthography in which the poems were written shows initial _h-_ ; this is
nothing more than a concession to the standard English spelling: _h-_ would
not have been pronounced at all.

The form of the language used is very interesting, because it would have
been old fashioned even when my grandmother was a girl. Especially
noteworthy is the form _they sen_ , 'they say', which I seem to remember
hearing once, but it is very rare.Also _they'n_ for 'they are'.  I am not
sure what to make of forms like _th'mon_ and _th'woife_ ; I have mentioned
that the dialect I was familiar with would have used _'mon_ and _'wife_, a
mere glottal stop. Either Samuel Layclock is recording an older form of the
dialect, or maybe he is unsure of how to represent the glottal stop. I
suspect that the answer is the former, since the use of the glottal stop
seems to have been spreading with the passage of time.

Here is a list of the more difficult words in the two poems:

_skoo_ : a school.
_hoo_ [u:] : she.
_nobbut_ : only.
_they sen_ : they say.
_owd_ : old.
_cross_ : angry, irritable.
_boxed_ : beat me.
_poo'd_ : boxed (my ears).
_an'on_ : as well. In Preston we would have said: _an aw_ (literally: 'and
all')
_clooas_ [klu:əz] : clothes.
_folk_ : people (of course), but pronounced _fowk_ [fəuk].
_cooarts_ [ku:ərts] : coarts, goes out with a girl.
_nowt_ : nought, nothing. He could equally have written it _ neawt_.
_reet_ : right.
_th'pump_ : he means a water pump standing on the street. People would not
have had a domestic water supply.
_Eccles-cakes_ : Eccles Cakes (now without the hyphen) are delicious buns
with currants in them. They presumably originate from Eccles near Liverpool.
_traycle beer_ : beer made from treacle. Black and thick but relatively easy
to make.
_pop_ : any gassy drink (named after the sound made when opening the
bottle). Still used in colloquial English, but I wonder how widespread the
word is.
_an o'_ : as well. Perhaps the _an 'on_ above was a mistake?
_he pows a bit_ : this I am not sure about; does it mean he does himself up?
_lawm_ : lame.
_childer_ : children (plural of _chilt_, with short _i_). We have discussed
this plural on Lowlands before.
_they'n_ : they are.
_ne'er_ : never.
_leet_ : light.
_brass_ L money. There is a famous north country saying: _Where there's muck
there's brass_ :'Where there's dirt there's money'!
_lodgin' brass_ : rent money.
_wark_ : work. This is the older form, later generations pronounce it
_wurrk_.
_speawt_ : spout.
_smo'_ : small.
_happen_ [apən] : perhaps, maybe.
_hoo's welly allus beawt_ : she is almost always without (i.e. money), she
is almost always penniless.
_sups_ : drinks. When I was a child this was perhaps the commonest word for
'drink' amongst native Prestonians.
_th'bum-baileys_ : the bailiffs.
_sowd_ : sold.
_Yawshur_ : Yorkshire.
_aw_ : all.
_foin' eawt_ : falling out, arguing.
_allus_ : always.
_chap_ : a man.
_shoon_ : shoes. Again we have discussed this plural on Lowlands.
_wake an' done_ : weak and sickly.
_he'll ha' to leeov us soon_ : he will have to leave us soon: i.e. he will
die.
_Bowton_ / _Bowton's Yard_ : _Bowton_ is _Bolton_< a town near Manchester.
_summat_ : something. I hear this word occasionally in the south of England
too.
_t'ate_ : to eat. In Preston the present tense of the vern to eat rhymed
with the numeral 'eight'. The past tense was _et_, rhyming with _bet_.
_co_ : call.
_An' allus mak's as big a noise as o i'th' place beside_ : and always makes
as much noise as anyone else (besides him) in the place.
_towd_ : told.
_fust_ : first. In Preston we said _fost_.
_ax_ : a common dialect form of ask.

_bonny_ : pretty, beautiful. A common word in the north of England and in
Scotland. It was very common when I was a child, and is still often used,
especially by women.
_brid_ : bird. Note the metathesis. Never really heard any more.
_th'art_ : thou art. Archaic Lancashire usage.
_ha'_ : have. Pronunciation would be schwa [ə ].
_pobbies_ : stale bread boiled in water or milk. In Preston we called this
_pobs_. My father used an expression _makin' a pobs of it_, to mean 'making
a mess of it'.
_did ta_ : did you?
_lad_ : boy was very rare in Lancashire dialect.
_yeard_ : heard.
_feyther_ : father. In Preston we said _father_ with a short back [a].
_trade wur slack_ : business was bad.
_pooin' thru_ : pulling through.
_aw munno fear thee_ : I shouldn't fear you. I shall make a comment on this
Modal Auxiliary elsewhere.
_awter_ : alter.
_beigh_ : buy.
_aw'm fain_ : I am happy.
_awhoam_ : at home.
_haupney_ : halfpenny. Preston had [eipni].
_owt_ : anything (<aught).
_sope_ : soup.
_tay_ : tea.
_skrike_ : cry, weep.
_howd_ : hold. _howd thi noise_ : 'keep quiet.'
_we've nobbut getten_ : we only have, we have only got.

John Duckworth
Preston, UK

================================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================