LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.27 (10) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.26 (07) [E]

> From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: Language Varieties
>
> As far as _moyderin'_ goes (meaning to pester, or 'bug' someone; to nag
> someone), it is hard not to interpret the word as a varaint pronunciation
> of
> the word _murdering_ , and in some Irish English dialects _murdering_
> would
> probably be pronounced just like that. What confuses the issue is the fact
> that other Lancashire dialects use the word _maytherin'_ , which is
> obviously the same word, but why is it phonetically so different? I wonder
> if the two words might not actually derive from some totally different
> source.

"Moyderin'" sounds to me like the stereotypical American gangster movie
pronunciation of "murdering", probably representative of New York/New
Jersey.

> Speaking of _murder_, this noun was, and is, often used in Lancashire in
> an
> almost adjectival manner, meaning something like 'troublesome',
> 'bothersome', 'difficult'; e.g. _it wer murder trying ter get through ter
> 'im._ (It was 'murder' [difficult] trying to get through to him / trying
> to
> get him to understand) ; _it wer murder in town today_ (it was crowded /
> tyring in the town centre today).

This is a fairly common usage in the US as well.

Kevin Caldwell

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.26 (07) [E]

Dear John Duckworth, Criostòir & All,

Subject: Language Varieties

My grandfather studied at Leicester University, long ago (that was during
the General Strike).
He brought back certain terms into family English, which we freely used,
supposing English people did. Among a few I recall such gems as 'mither'
(ma:ither) - 'pester', 'gormless' - 'simple-minded', 'pricklouse' -
'tailor'.
It set us back a bit, I remember, when we found English kids didn't use
these words.
Then one day we played host to an English schoolfriend, & in a grocery,
while my brother was pestering her, my mother spoke up, in English, not to
shut her out of the company, "Rory, stop mithering the girl!"
There was a British immigrant behind the counter, as we discovered, when she
upped & said, "Oh you make me feel so homesick!"
She was the first that understood us.

> "John Duckworth mentioned _moydering_ and _gansey_. Both these terms also
> appear(ed) in Hiberno-English, and may derive from there."

> What confuses the issue is the fact
> that other Lancashire dialects use the word _maytherin'_ , which is
> obviously the same word, but why is it phonetically so different? I wonder
> if the two words might not actually derive from some totally different
> source.

Here's my layman's input - has it nothing to do with 'mothering'? I know the
term 'mother' was once so broadly applied it could also mean 'womb' on one
end of the spectrum, & 'hysterical' (predictably) or 'mad' on the other.

Yrs,
Mark

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.26 (07) [E]


John Duckworth wrote:
"As far as _moyderin'_ goes (meaning to pester, or 'bug' someone; to nag
someone), it is hard not to interpret the word as a varaint pronunciation of
the word _murdering_ , and in some Irish English dialects _murdering_ would
probably be pronounced just like that."

Indeed. I should have mentioned that _moyderin_ had been frozen in the
phrase _moyderin my brains_ to mean "you are nagging me".

John also wrote:
"What confuses the issue is the fact that other Lancashire dialects use the
word _maytherin'_ , which is obviously the same word, but why is it
phonetically so different? I wonder if the two words might not actually
derive from some totally different source."

I have the same feeling. The word _mitherin_ for "nagging" is not
semantically connected to _murder_ which in Nottingham English is _modder_.

"Speaking of _murder_, this noun was, and is, often used in Lancashire in an
almost adjectival manner, meaning something like 'troublesome',
'bothersome', 'difficult'; e.g. _it wer murder trying ter get through ter
'im._ (It was 'murder' [difficult] trying to get through to him / trying to
get him to understand) ; _it wer murder in town today_ (it was crowded /
tyring in the town centre today)."

We have all these uses in Nottingham English too, and a strange one: _it wo
bloo modder_ "it was blue murder" meaning "it was intensely difficult,
intensely annoying". It's a phrase I haven't heard or used in some time, and
I think it can also be used to mean "scot-free" - _ies gorra weh wi bloo
modder, ie as_ "he's got away with blue murder, he has". There's also the
phrase _al bluddie modder you!_ "I'll bloody murder you!" which means "if I
get my hands on you...", often said to children in a playful way.

Yet in Nottingham English it's also common to say you'll _kill_ someone to
mean you want to fight them. I realise RP now has this whole degraded use of
_kill_ to mean annoyed with someone (i.e., "want to kill"), but in NE it is
still some of a truculent brag, i.e., _if a sie im al bluddie kill im, a
wil_ "if I see him I'll bloody kill him, I will" meaning that if you bump
into said person, you'll start a fist fight.

There are also terms fairly well attested in other northern variants, such
as _iding_ _tan is ide_ _belt_ and _batter_ ("hiding", "tan his hide" "belt"
and "batter") all to mean "chastise". These aren't idle threats. Although it
is frowned upon nowadays, it was quite common until very recently, and I
imagine in some places it still goes on, for children to be beaten with the
father's leather belt - the "tanned hide" of the threat. This, I think, is a
fairly general experience common to the entire Lowlands area as well as
Ireland.

Críostóir.

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From: Jan Strunk <strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.26 (07) [E]

Leive Lüe,

> > In
> > German literature of the 18th century one finds the 2nd person pl used
as
> > the polite form of address. Is this borrowed from French or just the
older
> > German convention?
>
> I am not sure, but I doubt it was due to French influence.  By the way,
this
> applied in LS of the time as well.
Not only in the LS of the time but also today. As far as I understand "Ji"
or "It" that
is the second person plural pronoun is used as a polite form in Westphalian
and
the northern Low Saxon habit of using "Sei" for this purpose is rather
uncommon.

Guedgaon!

Jan Strunk
strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de

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From: Jan Strunk <strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.26 (10) [E]

Hello,

> I can think of another non-Lowlandic example, also a Hebrew-derived one
that
> reached German via Yiddish and Rotwelsch (a now extinct "jargon" used by
> various socially marginal people):
Yesterday I saw a very interesting documentary on the history of traveling
on the Bavarian
TV channel. It also featured a report about modernday traveling craftsmen
(carpenters).
That still were special clothing called "Kluft" in German and still use
special rituals when they
offer their services to masters in the places they go (called "vorsprechen"
in German).
The report was very fascinating.

The most interesting thing was that it claimed that the traveling carpenters
wear the "Kluft" in order not
to be mistaken for other traveling people such as homeless vagabonds, and
undoubtedly robbers etc. in the past.
But the report also mentioned that those wandering craftsmen still speak
Rotwelsch today among each other in order
to have some kind of privacy and private language. I am not sure whether
this only involves a few vocabulary items
or the full fledged Rotwelsch system.

Donnerstag, 26. August 2004
      19:30 Faszination Wissen
      Spurensuche in Bayern
      Auf Schusters Rappen
      Reiselust und Reisefrust
      UT

Guedgaon!

Jan Strunk
strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de

----------

Folks,

Those of you who are interested in Rotwelsch (which is only very marginally
related to the Lowlands), please check out the following:

Rotwelsch-German dictionary:
http://www.petermangold.de/lexikon_rd.asp

Rotwelsch and Yenish (Jenisch, Yeniche) are closely related.  I have
mentioned both of them here before.  Yenish derives more from Sinti and
other Romany varieties.  It is a traverlers' language.  They rarely appeared
on the scene in the Lowlands, their region being in parts of Southern
Germany, France, Switzerland and Austria.  I believe that the Indo-Iranian
portion of their lexicon is mostly due to contacts with Sinti people.  In
Sinti, as I once mentioned, I noticed a few loans that might be Lowlands
Saxon (Low German) by origin, e.g., _sunthajt_ (LS _sundhait_ <Sundheit>
["sound-hood"], cf. German _Gesundheit_) 'health' (cf. native _sastipe_,
_sastibén_).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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