LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.29 (04) [E]

Sun Aug 29 17:09:09 UTC 2004

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L O W L A N D S - L * 29.AUG.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Dan Prohaska <danielprohaska at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Language varieties

>>From: john feather
>>The Venerable Bede's story of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes is over-simple.
>>The invaders came over a period of time and not necessarily directly from
>>their traditional homelands. I have read that the Saxons settled all round
>>the coast of the mainland from the Scheldt to the Loire. But if we start
>>assuming that large numbers came to Britain as traders and mercenaries and
>>basically took power by force of numbers when their populations had built
>>up, don't we have a problem with the lack of Latin and Celtic in OE apart
>>from place names? There are some Celtic terms for physical features of the
>>landscape but almost no Latin except words already borrowed on the
>>Continent. There may not have been any _need_ for more Latin but we know
>>from the later Viking/Danish invasions that even closely similar words can
>>exist side by side over long periods.

>>>Dan wrote:
>>>The Old English dialects called Anglian most likely developed their
>>>distinguishing features in Britain. So there is no one continental
>>>dialect which can be considered the parent dialect of Anglian, but it was
>>>rather a levelled colonial amalgam of several dialects. The situation is
>>>no different for the Saxon dialects of Old English.<

>>If this is the case, can anyone suggest any reason why much the same
>>mixture of source languages gave two distinct language groups in
>>"England"?

My guess is that the dialectal mix in the separate settlement areas was
different - this in isolation for two or three generations may have provoked
different forms of levelling. This may sound far fetched, but it is
reasonable if you compare the situation of American English where to this
day you see two very distinct dialect groups that originated in two separate
settlement areas. Though basically the same language was transplanted the
dialectal mix was a little different. Yet what emerged in the New World was
a new dialect different from every one found in the Old World.

Dan

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From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: language varieties

Dear all,

'Dan wrote:
The Old English dialects called Anglian most likely
developed their distinguishing features in Britain. So
there is no one continental dialect which can be
considered the parent dialect of Anglian, but it was
rather a levelled colonial amalgam of several
dialects. The situation is no different for the Saxon
dialects of Old English.

If this is the case, can anyone suggest any reason why
much the same mixture of source languages gave two
distinct language groups in "England"?'

I wouldn't disagree with the above but perhaps the
differences in dialect can also be attributed to the
fact that the Angles came mainly from area/islands
that are now Denmark (plus north Germany), i.e. in the
Scandinavian area. Could it not be that the Anglian
language was more influenced by (or even part
of)Scandinavian/North Germanic? The territory of the
Angles appears (stress on appears) to bridge the
boundary between North and West Germanic. These
factors may account for early differences in dialect
among English settlers. In addition, mixtures of
tribes and ethnic groups (e.g frisians and Jutes) that
settled in different locations in England may have
influenced local dialects.

Just some thoughts.

gan canny,
Glenn Simpson

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From: john feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Language varieties

Ron, you wrote:

>Folks, for those of you who don't understand ... it is a quote from Thomas
Mann's _Die Buddenbrooks_ (_The Buddenbrooks_), a novel about a well-to-do
19th century family in Lübeck, Germany.  (Buddenbrook is a Lowlands Saxon
surname.)<

Are you losing your German? The novel is "Buddenbrooks" - your "Die" looks
like an anglicism.

I'm very interested in the process of loss of mother tongue. I recently
collaborated on a translation from Swedish with a Scot now resident in
Sweden whose English included errors reflecting Swedish usages.

Professional translators are supposed to work only into their mother tongue
though I suspect that in some cases agencies use local translators backed up
by revisers who may themselves lose their linguistic edge over time. I've
just read in a glossy publication from DaimlerChrysler that "little
runabouts" produced by their subsidiary Global Electric Motorcars are
finding "a growing customer base .. in inner cities". The mind boggles.
Folks, for those of you who don't understand they probably mean "in city
centres". There were also references to "frigid temperatures". I would say
"freezing temperatures". Is "frigid" used in this sense in _real_ English?
Elsewhere "it has been only a decade since ..." In _real_ English we
illogically but conventionally put "only" earlier in the sentence - "it has
only been .." - but I think in this case we would actually say "it is only a
decade since". The original isn't _wrong_ but I would say it's sub-optimal.

John Feather
johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

John Feather (above):

> Are you losing your German? The novel is "Buddenbrooks" -
> your "Die" looks like an anglicism.

Not to me it don't.  Anyway, while it is true that anyone living outside his
or her original language community develops problems with that language or
at least (in fact, mostly) temporary problems with the "switching
mechanism," and while it may be true that _Die Buddenbrooks_ may have been
due to influences by _The Buddenbrooks_, I do not see this as an example of
failing language proficiency, leave alone of language loss.  In any case, to
me "language loss" sounds rather extreme.  I have so far come across only
three or four cases in which native languages were virtually lost, where
speakers could barely produce a grammatical sentence in their original
languages and would avoid situations in which they would have to use that
language.

_Die Buddenbrooks_ would be perfectly grammatical and fine German.  In fact,
in my variety it most certainly sounds more natural, certainly clearer than
does just _Buddenbrooks_, since it more clearly indicates that this is about
a specific family or clan.  The difference would be similar to choosing
between the English titles _Wilsons_ and _The Wilsons_.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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