LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.31 (05) [E]

Tue Aug 31 19:20:54 UTC 2004

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Grietje MENGER <grietje at menger.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.31 (04) [D/E]

> From: Pyt Berg <pytbergy at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Dutch into English
>
> am trying to ascertain the Dutch words that have come into English
>
> The ones I know about come from
> (a)navagation in 1600+
> (b) and via the Dutch settlement of New Netherland in the USA.
> (Read the book "The Island at the centre of the World")
> (c) Afrikaans.
>
> a. Starboard - Stuurboord,  Stranded (beached) -Strand, Yacht  -Jacht
> b.  Coleslaw - Kohl Sla,  boss - baas, Sinta Klaas - Santa Claus.
> c.  Trek, apartheid, boer??
>
> Can anybody ADD to this list??
>
> Pieter.........................

Too many to list (though I could make an effort), but my source is the
inimitable Nicoline van der Sijs "Geleend en uitgeleend" - Nederlandse
woorden in andere talen & andersom. ISBN90-254-2450-3. I think she planned
(after writing the Leenwoordenboek about words that Dutch had loaned from
other languages) to write a complete book about words other languages had
loaned from Dutch, but I haven't seen it yet.

- into French: _kaper_ and _vrijbuiter_ to _capre_ and _flibustier_
- into German: _stilleven_ to _Stilleben_
- Dutch _makelaar_ to French _maquerel_ back to Dutch _makreel_ and further
into Swedish, Danish and Russian
- _flamenco_ from _Vlaming_
- _baas_ , _brandewijn_ , _dopen_ and _kolf_ via English _boss_ , _brandy_ ,
_dope_ and _golf_ and back to Dutch again in that form
- _potas_ into _potash_ , _Pottasche_ , _potasse_ , _pottaska_ etc

I'd have to reread the book to give you more ;-)

Goeie, Pieter,

Grietje Menger
Scotland

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From: GoodbyColumbus at aol.com <GoodbyColumbus at aol.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.31 (04) [D/E]

In a message dated 8/31/04 11:07:34 AM Central Daylight Time,
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net writes:

  a. Starboard - Stuurboord,  Stranded (beached) -Strand, Yacht  -Jacht
  b.  Coleslaw - Kohl Sla,  boss - baas, Sinta Klaas - Santa Claus.
  c.  Trek, apartheid, boer??

  Can anybody ADD to this list??

  Pieter.........................

'Cookie'.

But I think starboard comes from an Anglo-Saxon word:
"...let him ealne weg þæt weste lande on þæt steorbord." from the Voyage of
Ohthere.

[Brad E. Conatser]

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Granted, Dutch loans in English are no doubt numerous.  But careful!  I have
to raise the Saxon flag here (whatever that may be) and interject that some
loans that tend to be assumed Dutch are or may be of Middle Saxon origin,
loaned in the course of Hanseatic trading and shipping with Britain.  This
would apply especially to rather early loans.

The "problem" is that Dutch (or Zeelandic and all the other varieties that
are lumped together under this label) are very closely related to Lowlands
Saxon (Low German), and that most of them share loads of identical word
forms.  I have a feeling that many etymologists automatically apply the
label "Dutch" because Dutch is a "bona fide" language in their eyes (because
it is a national language), and the traditional view is that "Low German" is
a German dialect group, is therefore less consequential in their eyes, apart
from the fact that there are fewer and poorer resources for it than for
Dutch.  Of course, if we assume that Zeelandic and (Western) Flemish are
separate, the same can be said about them.

A clearly Middle Saxon loan is "trade," from MidS _trade_ (~ _trâ_) '(to)
track' < Old Saxon _trada(n)_, thus related to English "tread."   This one
is really old, from the 13th or early 14th century.

Also "dollar" appears to be derived from Middle Saxon _daler_ (not from
German
_Thaler_ as some have claimed).

Cases in which we aren't so sure if a loan is "Dutch" or Lowlands Saxon
include 'luck' (MidD _gelukke_, MidS _(ge)lucke_ ~ _(ge)lücke_)

Old English already has _stéorbord_ for 'starboard', and Modern Lowlands
Saxon has _stüyrbourd_ (<Stüürboord>).

Also, it is not clear if "stove" is a "Dutch" or Saxon loan.  Both have
_stove_ in earlier varieties.

Similarly "to keek" in English and Scots dialects; cf. MidD and MidS
_kîken_,
_kieken _ 'to look' (> ModD _kijken_, ModS _kyken_ <kieken>).

English _aloof_ is said to come from MidD _(te) loef_ 'windward (side)', but
MidS and ModS also have _(to) luuv_ [lu:f] for the same.

English "freight" may have been derived from MidD or MidS _vrecht_ <
_vracht_.

English "offal" may have been derived from MidD or MidS  _afval_, _affal_
"things that fall off" = 'rubbish'.

English "morass" could have come either from MidD _morasch_ ~ _moeras_ or
from MidS _môras_ < Old French _marais_, _mares_, _maresc_.

English "to smuggle" could have come either from MidD _smuckle_ (>
_smokkelen_) or from MidS _smuckeln_.

English _dapper_ could come from Dutch or LS _dapper_ 'courageous'.

Apparently true "Dutch" loan I can add to the list:

wiseacre (< wysseggher)
boom (< boom)
buoy (< boeie)
cruise (< kruisen)
dock (< dok)
deck (< deck)
drill < dril, drille
ezel (< ezel)
gin (< genever)
roster (< rooster)
skates (< schaetse)
cookie < koekje (into American English, where Dutch is a prime suspect)

Another warning: many words some try to pass off as Dutch loans might just
as well be native to English.  Just because they are not found in earlier
English literature should not be taken as meaning that they did not exist
prior to their earliest written occurrence.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.31 (04) [D/E]

> From: Pyt Berg <pytbergy at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Dutch into English
>
> am trying to ascertain the Dutch words that have come into English
>
> The ones I know about come from
> (a)navagation in 1600+
> (b) and via the Dutch settlement of New Netherland in the USA.
> (Read the book "The Island at the centre of the World")
> (c) Afrikaans.
>
> a. Starboard - Stuurboord,  Stranded (beached) -Strand, Yacht  -Jacht
> b.  Coleslaw - Kohl Sla,  boss - baas, Sinta Klaas - Santa Claus.
> c.  Trek, apartheid, boer??
>
> Can anybody ADD to this list??
>
> Pieter.........................

For (c) there are several animal names from Afrikaans: aardvark, aardwolf,
reebok or rhebok, springbok, gemsbok, bontebok, wildebeest, duiker,
hartebeest, blesbok, klipspringer, steenbok.

As for "strand", I'm pretty sure that is a native English word.  American
Heritage Dictionary says it goes back to OE.  So does Merriam-Webster Online
Dictionary.

Kevin Caldwell

----------

From: Troy Sagrillo <meshwesh at bigfoot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.31 (04) [D/E]

on 31.08.2004 5.32 PM, Pyt Berg <pytbergy at yahoo.com> wrote:

> am trying to ascertain the Dutch words that have come into English
>
> The ones I know about come from
> (a)navagation in 1600+
> (b) and via the Dutch settlement of New Netherland in the USA.
> (Read the book "The Island at the centre of the World")
> (c) Afrikaans.
>
> a. Starboard - Stuurboord,  Stranded (beached) -Strand, Yacht  -Jacht
> b.  Coleslaw - Kohl Sla,  boss - baas, Sinta Klaas - Santa Claus.
> c.  Trek, apartheid, boer??

There is quite a large number of words of Dutch origin in English
(hundreds). Go to the AHD at http://www.bartleby.com/61/ and search for
"Dutch" and then "Flemish" with "etymology" selected in the dropdown list
(and you could try "Afrikaans" as well). Some of the more interesting or
surprising are scavenger, gas, yammer, funk, plug, gruff, slurp, freebooter,
and dingus.

Cheers,

Troy

----------

From: rick denkers <d.denkers at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.31 (04) [D/E]

Moin Pyt,

>I am trying to ascertain the Dutch words that have come into English
>
> The ones I know about come from
> (a)navagation in 1600+
> (b) and via the Dutch settlement of New Netherland in the USA.
> (Read the book "The Island at the centre of the World")
> (c) Afrikaans.
>
> a. Starboard - Stuurboord,  Stranded (beached) -Strand, Yacht  -Jacht
> b.  Coleslaw - Kohl Sla,  boss - baas, Sinta Klaas - Santa Claus.
> c.  Trek, apartheid, boer??

Landscape  ( Art)

Not really sure about this one: pancake.

groutn,

rick

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