LL-L "Phonology" 2004.12.03 (02) [E]

Fri Dec 3 17:38:56 UTC 2004

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Rikus Kiers <kiersbv at tiscali.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.12.02 (13) [E]

Hi Gary',

Your overvieuw of the R in the Netherlands is a little bit to easy.
In the netherlands almost every city,town or village has in a certain way
its own pronunciation of the language. Per region they look a lot the same
but there are exeptions. Groningen -city has a rolling R, Zwolle also but a
little bit different from Groningen.
De Randstad is based on Algemeen Beschaafd Nederlands, which is the official
language of theNetherlands. But...
Cities all have a different pronunciation and in many parts of the cities
they even speak a language, which resembles dialects. The Hague has a very
special r, looks a combination of r and  a soft dutch g.
In Utrecht they have a kind of singing pronunciation.
I am not a linguist, studied Socology and Management and used to live in
Groningen , Amsterdam and live now close to the Hague, as I told you before.
I was born and lived 18 years in Drenthe.I joined this list because I am
interested in Saxon language. As a management consultant I work in almost
every part of The Netherlands.A couple of times I made jokes with people
p.e. When I notice in one of the cities in the street a group of obvious
visiting people coming from Drenthe I try to guess which place they come
from. I join them and mix myself in their discussions or chat in Drents. I
had a couple of times that they noticed at first not that I was not a member
of their group.
They always appreciated my behavior very much.
I hope I could help you a little bit.

Rikus Kiers

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.12.02 (13) [E]

> From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Phonology
>
> Hi All
>
> Ok, I've done a bit of research, partly on my own,
> and partly from what
> everyone here's been saying and I've got rough
> pronunciations of r figured
> out, and whether it's vocalised or not, for the
> Lowland area. Note not
> necessarily for fun - it does tie in with my
> research, so purely selfish,
> but thought you might be interested. Please correct
> me if anything here's
> wrong.
>
> Netherlands/Belgium
>
> 1 Totally rhotic areas where r is pronounced in all
> positions as [r] (tongue
> tip r) inlude the middle
> swathe of the Dutch speaking area (including Brugge,
> Antwerp, Breda,
> Tilburg, Eindhoven, Helmond, Nijmegen, Arnhem). Also
> possibly Lelystad,
> Hoorn, Alkmaar, Den Helder - not so sure.
>
> 2 Areas where the r is throaty ([R]) and variably
> deleted or vocalised are
> the Randstad (see the earlier definitions) and
> isolated examples in area 1
> such as Bergen op Zoom
[...cut]
-------------------------

thank you, Gary, for clear representing.
I want to make a small note, which is not
contradicting, and -I think- superfluous; but which is
made just for the case of phonology, and maybe will
clarify a bit for our not dutch-speaking friends.

To clarify this I just take one exemple:
'schikken' and 'schrikken'.
In the last word a lot of dutchmen will not pronounce
the 'r', but they make a 'delay' on the r-position; so
the transition to the following 'i' is longer than in
'schikken'. And so, without a 'r', you have two
different words.

 vr.gr.
Theo Homan

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.12.02 (13) [E]

>>>>> Hi Gary.

What you said below about trilled r/tongue tip r is not correct for at least
Tilburg, Eindhoven, Helmond, Nijmegen and Arnhem, and probably
for Breda neither. All these towns have largynal [R], as I know from my own
experience. I lived in Eindhoven for over twelve years -and my wife
Barbara was born and raised there- in Helmond about one and a half year, and
know Tilburg (only about 30 km West of Eindhoven) too.
Since two years I live near and work in Arnhem, and I've been in Nijmegen
many times (only 20 km South of Arnhem), and I have some
relatives there. In all those towns - belonging to the South Central or
Brabantish dialect group- the 'natives' have a clear [R] - called gebrouwde
r
'brewed r' in Dutch. One of the important differences between Brabantish
pronunciations in the Netherlands and Belgium is that the latter generally
use [r] and the former [R].

But you should check the website of OnzeTaal (about the Dutch language and
all kind of varieties) too, there is an article about this subject,
I think it's called the R-files or so. By the way, I think Lelystad doesn't
have an accent of its ow, the town was founded only thirty years
or so ago in the reclaimed IJsselmeer/Zuiderzee. But since many people from
Amsterdam moved there, it is quite possible they kept their own [r]
like most (non-Jewish) inhabitants of that city.
  Ingmar

Gary Taylor wrote:

> Netherlands/Belgium
>
> 1 Totally rhotic areas where r is pronounced in all positions as [r]
(tongue
> tip r) inlude the middle swathe of the Dutch speaking area (including
Brugge, Antwerp, Breda,
> Tilburg, Eindhoven, Helmond, Nijmegen, Arnhem). Also possibly Lelystad,
> Hoorn, Alkmaar, Den Helder - not so sure.

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.12.02 (13) [E]

Gary schreev:
>
> Netherlands/Belgium
>
> 1 Totally rhotic areas where r is pronounced in all positions as [r]
> (tongue
> tip r) inlude the middle
> swathe of the Dutch speaking area (including Brugge, Antwerp, Breda,
> Tilburg, Eindhoven, Helmond, Nijmegen, Arnhem). Also possibly Lelystad,
> Hoorn, Alkmaar, Den Helder - not so sure.
>
> 2 Areas where the r is throaty ([R]) and variably deleted or vocalised are
> the Randstad (see the earlier definitions) and isolated examples in area 1
> such as Bergen op Zoom
>
I'd say that [R] and [r] appear pretty much mixed. For example, one of
my younger brothers pronounces his r's as [R] (maybe he chose to do so
on purpose, cause nobody else in my family does, but he does it, and
that counts I guess).

> 4 The Low Saxon/Limburgs areas as far North as Zwolle and Almelo and all
> largish towns not yet mentioned to the south of these tend to have a
> difference between the towns and the villages - towns usually with [R] and
> villages with [r].
 >
I haven't heard this distinction, and I used to live in the area until
1.5 years ago (I may move back there in just a couple months!). Some
people use [R] (like my aforementioned brother), but most use [r] I think.

> It's vocalised or dropped here before coronal consonants
> (t, d, s, n, l) and before other consonants it's either pronounced (so
> rhotic) or there's epenthesis - a vowel is inserted to separate the r and
> following consonant. Word finally it's also optionally dropped/vocalised.
>
Before z too, and it's dropped in words such as "sparen" too (but maybe
that counts as before n).

regards,
Henry

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From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.12.02 (13) [E]

Hi all

just an addendum to what I wrote before. The r in
Southeast England towns is often [P] (labio-dental
approximant) amongst 'younger' speakers. (Arising from
a speech defect that has become generally accepted?)
This I know from my own English, which you'll hear on
the Wren project, when we're all finally allowed to
hear the soundfiles... I've also heard it reported for
Norwich and wouldn't be surprised if it was used
elsewhere.

Gary

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