LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.12.10 (01) [A/E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 10.DEC.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: ezinsser at icon.co.za <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.12.09 (01) [E/F/LS]

Hi all!

Yevgeny Ustinovich, apparently the double negative was quite common in
Zeeus, and as I
understand, still exists in some Netherlandic dialect forms.

You might want to read up on the influence of Khoi languages as well as
Malay on
reinforcing the existing double negative in an emerging Afrikaans in the
late 16oo's.

I have (years ago) provided much information on Lowlands and the archives
should still
have the references and current research that's been conducted on this
issue.

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

>>The double negative in Afrikaans
>> (...nie...nie) -- could it come from the Middle Dutch or are there >>some
Netherlands
dialects that have this feature (or had it back in >>1700s)?

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.12.09 (01) [E/F/LS]

Beste Yevgeny

Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

> my name is Yevgeny and to the best of my knowledge, I am (unfortunately)
the
> only linguist in  Ukraine who studies Afrikaans. I would appreciate ALL
> kinds of  help/information.

Bly om u kennis te maak, Yevgeny!
Pleased to make your acquaintance!

> Here is something I am trying to find out. The double negative in
Afrikaans
> (...nie...nie) -- could it come from the Middle Dutch or are there some
> Netherlands dialects that have this feature (or had it back in 1700s)?
> Thanks!

    Die onderwerp is voorheens op L-Lowlands uitgelig, en so gesê kom daar
wel onder sekere dialekte soos Zeeus die slot-'nie' by geleentheid in
negatiewe sinne voor. Reinhard Hahn sal daar meer behulpsaam kan wees. Maar
in Afrikaans is dit sedert die laat 1600s gevestig. Sommiges beweer dit is
van die Franse Hugenote aangeleer, maar dis onwaarskynlik. Dit word nie in
toom met die Franse ne - pas of  - rian aangewend nie. Natuurlik is die
Afrikaner trots op sy Dietse afkoms, maar hy wil ook 'n bietjie oor die
Franse deelname in sy stamboek asook sy Taal en sy Eie ook kan bluf!
    Een wink vir die penkop (as ek mag). Die woord 'geen' voorskryf nie 'n
slot-'n' nie. Dit is 'n positiewe verklaring oor 'n negatiewe hoeveelheid,
en dra die selfde (positiewe) grammatikale waarde as 'min' en 'een'. Pasop
vir hiperkorreksie!
    By voorbeeld: 'Ek het nie 'n pen nie.' = 'I haven't a pen.'
                             'Ek het geen pen.' = 'I have no pen.'
                             'Ek het nie 'geen skryfding' nie; ek het wel 'n
pen!' =
                             'I do not have 'no writing instrument'; I
actually have a pen!'
    One hint for the novice (if I may). the word 'geen' = (none) does not
prescribe a closing 'n'. It is a positive statement about a negative
quantity, and carries the same (positive) grammatical value as 'min' = (few)
and 'een' = (one). Beware of hypercorrection.
    The subject has been raised before in L-Lowlands, and it is said that
the closing 'nie' in negative sentences does occasionally appear in some
dialects such as Zeelandic. Reinhard Hahn will be more help there. But in
Afrikaans it has been established since the late 1600s. Some assert it was
learned from the French Hugenots, but it's unlikely. It does not conform to
the French ne - pas or  - rian. Naturally, the Afrikaner is proud of his
Lowlands origins, but he also wants to brag a bit about the French
contribution to his family-tree as well as his Afrikaans and his Culture!

Die Uwe,
Mark

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