LL-L "Language politics" 2004.12.15 (02) [E]

Wed Dec 15 17:07:02 UTC 2004

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From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen <kenneth at gnu.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2004.12.14 (11) [E]

Through education. The guy I talked studied to become a sign language
teacher, and he told me that the new teachers were tought  to use new
general signs (standardized at meetings within the education system) and
disregard their own dialect.

Cheers,
Kenneth

>I'd like to know how they do that, considering that the language isn't even
>written down!
>
>How do you "remove dialect differences" from any language?
>
>Sandy
>http://scotstext.org/

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From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language Politics

Hi Everyone

There's been talk about Irish being actively
interpreted from other languages in meetings in the
EU.

I'm definitely for minority languages being recognised
and for all EU literature to be available in all the
languages spoken within the EU, including languages
which don't have the recognition in their home
countries they deserve, such as Low Saxon and Scots.

The problem I see is expense. Irish is a language
where there are no (or extremely few) monolingual
speakers. Any of the Irish MEPs will have a command of
both Irish and English, in the same way as Low Saxon
speakers who have become MEPs will be able to speak
High German, Scots speakers will be able to speak
English, and Frisian speakers will be able to speak
Dutch etc. For interpretations into these languages,
it's a nice idea, but incredibly expensive, and as far
as I can see it, not exactly necessary. I do think
that any papers produced by the European parliament
that are for general viewing by the public should be
available in any European Union language that the
readers feels comfortable with, which would include
Irish, Low Saxon, Scots and the various Frisian
languages.

Being a tax payer within the European Union, I feel
there are a lot more things of greater importance
within Europe that I'm willing to pay for.

I don't want people to think that I'm against minority
languages, because I'm not, but I don't think this is
the best way to promote them. It would be nice if at
some point in the future Irish became so popular again
so that there would be a lot more monolingual speakers
of the language, who don't feel the pressure to speak
English, but this is something that should be dealt
with locally, with more support through media and
education etc., and not in Brussels.

Just a few thoughts...

Gary

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2004.12.14 (09) [E]

Roger Thijs wrote:
"So I guess MPs in Dublin already have simultaneous translation into Irish
(and v.v.) in the Dublin parliament? If so, I change my mind and admit it is
fair we all fund that they get the same service on European level."

The situation is not so simple as an absolute Anglophone / Hibernophone
split. The language situation is one where a minority of the nation claim at
censuses to "know Irish" (around 40 per cent in the 2002 census). This is
self-reportage. But a further ten or fifteen per cent on top of that figure
have a passive, imperfect knowledge based on remembrances from Irish being a
compulsory school subject, so it would not be wrong to say that a majority
of people in the south of Ireland know Irish, even if only a small minority
actually uses it consistently as its main language. So what we have is mixed
language situation with no absolute usages of either Irish or English.

It is the case with Irish that, according census after census, the further
you progress in the official education system, the more likely you are to
know Irish. (Certain occupations, such as teachers and gardai - i.e.,
police - report 70-90 per cent Irish speakers.) Given that most members of
the Irish Parliament, itself called Dáil Éireann (Teachtai Dála or TDs) are
educated to university level or beyond, most would also know Irish, and a
substantial minority would be fluent, with smaller numbers being actual
native speakers. Because of these realities, Irish is not translated into
English when it is used in the Dáil (quite aside from it being the first
official language that all public representatives should know and use). It
is simply taken as a given that Irish will be understood. I cannot remember
any TD ever asking for a translation into English from Irish, and debates in
Irish are frequent enough.

There was minor controversy in the northern assembly when certain members
insisted (quite rightly) on using Irish, with the unionist members howling
them down and demanding they speak English. But even there translation was
never put into the debate: it was more a matter of unionist members not
wanting Irish used at all in the chamber on grounds of linguistic
chauvinism. Ulster Scots, when it is used, is not translated either.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

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From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2004.12.14 (02) [E]

British and Irish Sign language should be supported under diability
legislation... the fact that its not is a show of shame for our government.
Ill forward this email to my local TD's and see what response I get.

Tomas O' Carthaigh
www.teanganua.pro.ie

>From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
>Subject: "Language politics" [E]
>
> > From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
> > Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2004.12.13 (02) [E/German]
> >
> > About 50% of the Irish MEPs are fluent Gaelic speakers, so I expect that
> > they will tune in. Two out of Northern Ireland MEP's are staunch Gaelic
> > supporters, so I expect them to be favourable to this too.
> >
> > It is a good development, that small nations like Ireland cannot be
>ignored,
> > especially as we are not a bastard-nation (ie. a nation who evolved as a
> > result of a deposed colonial power), but a native one.
> >
> > This is one of the services I would be happy to pay for, as a taxpayer.
> >
> > It is a national right. Indeed many more languages should be included,
>amny
> > from the Germanic strain discussed on this listserve.
>
>I was at a conference on Deaf Advocacy in Cardiff yesterday and there was a
>woman there from the Irish Deaf Advocacy organisation.
>
>Of course she had her own relay interpreter with her so that for her the
>interpretation went from British Sign Language to English to Irish Sign
>Language and back.
>
>She said that traditionally there are said to be 4,000 deaf or HoH people
>in
>the Irish Republic altogether, but an investigation showed that there are
>more likely about 16,000, not including those developing a hearing loss
>over
>the age of 65.
>
>BSL and ISL are both officially recognised by the British government, since
>ISL is also spoken in Northern Ireland.
>
>ISL isn't recognised by the Irish government at all. Sinn Fein was the only
>party in the Irish Republic to promise support for ISL and the unexpected
>number of seats won was put down to the fact that deaf people were voting
>for them. However, a survey of deaf people in the Irish Republic revealed
>that deaf people didn't know Sinn Fein were in support of ISL, because
>information on the subject was only available in Irish and English, not in
>ISL.
>
>So we need even more taxation to sort out the languages of the Irish
>Republic!
>
>Sandy
>http://scotstext.org/

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From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen <kenneth at gnu.org>
Subject: Language politics

Spanish Foreign Minister Miguel Angel Moratinos on Monday (13 December)
presented proposals to make Galician, Basque and Catalan-Valencian
official EU languages.

Read full article at EUobserver.com at http://euobserver.com/?aid=17992&rk=1

Regards,
Kenneth

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