LL-L "Names" 2004.12.16 (05) [E]

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From: Carl Witzel <cwitzjr at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.12.05 (04) [E]


Ron wrote:

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Hi, Carl!

Careful with Latin names of North Europeans!  They are usually "faked up."
People with "learning" or those that wanted to appear learned used to
acquire Latin variants of their names because in medieval times Latin was
considered the only real or good language and Latin names were supposed to
give folks status.  A lot of approximation was involved, usually based on
the native name, with the aim of making it appear genuinely Latin.  So, if,
let's say, the guy's name was Witzelin  -- perhaps a diminuitive form of
Wi(n)tzel ~ We(n)tzel, either from Germanic Werner (which would make
Witzelin amount to a double diminutive form), or from Slavonic Ve(n)ceslav
(given that the usually German equivalents of this are Wenzel or Wetzel) --
then Latin Vicellinus would seem like a compromise choice: it seems
phonologically related, has a meaning (based on 'neighbor') and contains a
(Latin) diminutive as well.  My point is that Latin equivalents can be very
unreliable in researching native names.

Of course, the man was born in Hamlin, which is just about on the
westernmost edge of the older Germanic-Slavonic overlap region.  This may
make the possibility of him having been a Slav or of Slavonic descent
perhaps somewhat more remote, but you ought not exclude it altogether, given
also that he was given Slavonic areas as his missionary jurisdiction.  Bear
in mind that Slavonic communities of that region (and beyond) were rarely in
power positions and Slavs that were (such as aristocrats and clerics) tended
to be or become Germanicized (later followed by those they represented or
rules).  Slavonic origin in that region is not easily proven where important
figures tried to blend in with the power groups, took on Germanic versions
of their names and then Latinized these.

----------

Hi Ron,

As you know, we had been discussing the name Vicelin (c1090) and Wizelin
(c950).

My old English-German dictionary lists a word _Witzeln_: v.n. (aux _haben_)
'to affect wit, to make a false display of wit'.

Saint Vicelin is also referred to as Wizelin, as we have noted before.
Georg Witzel (1501-1573) is referred to, on at least one occasion, as Jorgen
Witzceln.

OK, I'm searching here, and I am not a linguist in any way.  Ron, I am
hoping that you can help me understand if there is any relationship between
a word form and a name.  Or are the two completely different etymologies?

Well, I keep it short.  Thanks so much.

Highest regards;

Carl


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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Hi, Carl!

The German verb _witzeln_ can also mean something like 'to quip' or 'to
wisecrack'.  In fact, I would say those are the most likely modern meanings.
The verb goes back to the noun _Witz_ 'joke', which goes back to Old German
_wizzi_ and is related to Old Saxon, Old Frisian and Old English _wit_ (also
Old English _gewit_), which pretty much have the meanings of Modern English
"wit."  In German, this older meaning is somewhat preserved in the adjective
_gewitzt_ 'clever', 'cunning', 'witty' (as opposed to _witzig_ 'funny').

The _-elin-_ in the name seems like a diminutive in Germanic (> Modern
German _-(e)lein_), also like a diminutive in Latin (hence my *_vicellinus_
'neighbor' dim.).

It's all still quite a mystery to me, just as to yourself.  I am fairly
confident that the name is not Lowlandic (on account of _tz_) but either
German (Witzel ~ Wetzel ~ Wissel ~ Wessel, which seems to be fairly
widespread especially among but apparently not exclusive to Jewish Germans)
or Slavonic (with _-in_ as a noun-from-noun derivative, as in _brlo_ 'swamp'
+ _-in_ = _brlin_ 'swampy place' = Berlin).  In regard to the latter, what
comes to mind are associations with Czech _včelín_ 'apiary', 'beehive', 'bee
house' from _včela_ 'bee' (> _včelař_ 'bee-keeper', 'apiarist').

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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