LL-L "Etymology" 2004.01.27 (03) [A/E]

Fri Feb 27 17:10:54 UTC 2004

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.02.23 (04) [E]

> Hi Peter and Ron,
>
>> From:The only word I can think of that
>> begins with Q is quatsch because I remember my father used to say it.
>> I am
>> not s
>
>> Possibly from German _Quatsch_ 'nonsense'.  It is related to the
>> Lowlands
>> Saxon adjective _dwatsch_ 'silly' and _kwaad'_ 'evil', 'bad'.
>
> It is a word strictly used  by people living near the German border.
> So it
> is typically "east-dutch" . Quatsch is used In Gelderland,Brabant and
> Limburg so you can even consider it as "south-eastern Dutch"
>
> It is used as a (very) strong Nonsense. Quatsch! And AFAIK it is
> "imported"
> from Germany.
>
> Regards,
>
> Rick [Denkers]
Hi,
  In my West-Flemish we also use the word "kwatch" in the same meaning.
But i do not find it in my Flemish dict., so i suppose it is a loan
from the German border.
We don't use the verb "kwatschen". Maybe it is related with our word
"kletsen" who has the same meaning.

Groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.01.26 (03) [D/E]

  Rick Denkers wrote under "Orthography":

    And not much later dutch words were used in the Russian Language. One of

  the

    prime examples of that is the russian word for hairdresser( or better
    barber) (in latin, phonetic): parjiekmacherskaja, or in dutch...
    pruikenmaker, wigmaker.

  While I certainly do not doubt the fact that many Dutch loans entered
  Russian at that time (as did some Lowlands Saxon ones), I doubt that
Russian
  ?????????????? _parikmaxerskaja_ 'barbershop' comes from Dutch. I am
  inclined to think that it comes from German (cf. Modern Standard German
  _Perückenmacher_ 'wigmaker'). Wouldn't that make more sense
phonologically?
  Had it come from Dutch, I would expect something like *????????????????
  *_prajkenmakerskaja_ or *???????????????? *_projkenmakerskaja_. Had it
come
  from Lowlands Saxon (Low German) I would expect something like
  *?(?)?????????????? *_p(e)rjukenmakerskaja_ (< _p(e)rüykenmaker_).

  Regards,
  Reinhard/Ron

Hi Ron, and Rick,
In West-Flemish we use "paruke/paru'e/pruke/pru'e" for the Dutch word
"pruik"
Groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at simpross.co.za>
Subject: LL-L Subject: search me!

Dag almal,

Heelemal onverwant, maar Frank Verhoft se vraag oor ganja het my
herinner aan die Kaap-Maleise woord ghantang soos vervat in I.D. du
Plessis se gediggie _Kaalvoet klonkie_ wat ek
hieronder pos:

Verflenterde kaalvoet klonkie
Wat groente verkoop in die reën,
Met jou lelike skurwe tone
En jou lendelam hoepelbeen,
Jy kom met jou venterliedjie
Deur die mistige Kaapse straat
En helder sing jy die woorde
Op jou eie koddige maat:

Lekka, lekka ywe,
Laat die ghantang nader skywe!
Tamaties en ywe vars van die Strand
En baie kiri slam by die hys se kant!

Jy kom uit 'n deel van Kanaldorp
Waar die dienders gewapend moet gaan
En die weerlig van 'n skeermeslem
In 'n donker hoek neer mag slaan.
Miskien kon jy "Bismillah" sê
Vanmôre, omdat in die kas
Wat dae lank so leeg moet bly,
Daar weer 'n broodjie was?
Of dink jy al aan Nuwejaar
As die troepe deur Waalstraat stroom
Van die Bo-Kaap na die Onder-Kaap
Langs die stomp van die Slaweboom?
Is dit wat jou so laat bokspring
En dans op jou hoepelbeen,
Verflenterde kaalvoet klonkie,
As jy groente verkoop in die reën?
Ek hou van die vrolike klanke
Waarmee jy die winter tart.
Sing jy hierdie ligte deuntjie
Bo 'n somberte in jou hart?
En as jy óp na die Boereplein
Met jou boepens-mandjie gaan,
Dan trek jou parmantige liedjie
Deur die strate agter jou aan:

Lekka, lekka ywe,
Laat die ghantang nader skywe!
Tamaties en ywe vars van die Strand
En baie kiri slam by die hys se kant!

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Etymology

Luc:

> We don't use the verb "kwatschen". Maybe it is related with our word
> "kletsen" who has the same meaning.

I think that's related to Lowlands Saxon (Low German) and German _klatschen_
'to gossip' (one of may words to use for this).  _Klatschen_ also denotes
'to clap', 'to smack', 'to slap'.  Related to the meaning 'to gossip' is
_klatschen_ for 'to tell on (someone)', 'to squeal', 'to sneak' (Brit.).

Elsie:

> Plessis se gediggie _Kaalvoet klonkie_

Dankie, Elsie.  En ook uit die _Namakwalandse Rympies_:

   Lui die klokke en kietel die snare
   maak musiek deur Namakwaland
   slaan die rooi blom se hart aan die brand
   ek is die vlaktes se ligvoet-ghantang
   ek is die klipbok van berg en rant
   slaan die ramkies en trosse kitare
   ek is mandoor van Namakwaland ...

En dis ook in 'n baie interessante stelling oor Afrikaans
(http://millennium.arts.kuleuven.ac.be/Afrikaans/les6.pdf) genoem:

<quote>

Maleise leenwoorde in Kaapse Afrikaans

Die volgende woorde word in die Kaapse Maleise gemeenskap gebruik, en het ‘n
Maleise oorsprong (baie van hulle hou verband met die Moesliemgeloof.):
batcha (om te resiteer), agama (geloof) en mandie (om te bad met die oog op
spirituele reiniging). Die woorde is ook gebruik deur Abubakr Effendi in
1869 in sy Bayanudin “... eerder as hulle Arabiese ekvivalente (Davids
(ongedateer:3)). Stone (1995:278) konstateer egter dat Arabies voorkeur
geniet het as die heilige taal, en Maleis “... in reference communal custom”
. In baie gevalle is Maleise woorde gebruik naas Arabiese woorde, en kon die
sprekers nie tussen die opsies kies of selfs onderskei nie (Davids (1992
(a):53)) Deesdae lyk dit asof Arabiese komponete die Maleise woorde in
Kaapse Afrikaans verdring het (Klopper (1983:135); Kotzé (1989:258)). Vgl.

agama (geloof), ai-ya (verse van / om te spel), Allahoe Ta-alla (God die
almagtige), apdas (die reinigingsritueel), barakat (‘n pakkie koek/koekies
as geskenk om huistoe te neem), bang (gee die oproep om te bid), barries
(Arabiese vokaalaanduiders), batcha (opsê/lees), biemiela (in die naam van
God), boeta-maaf (verskoon my), boeka (‘maak die mond oop’, om op te hou vas
(gedurende Ramadan)), bouwa (vokaalaanduider), dappan (vokaalaanduiderr),
dettis (vokaalaanduider), djalantoes (uit djala melang) (onordelik), djamang
(toilet), doekoen (verban), fard (van Malay fardzu?) (verplig), gadaab
(geselskap), galatie (meisie), garam (verbied om te eet), ghabaar (boodskap
of nuus), ghantang (soorte kos / vriendin), ghielap / gielap (uit kilat)
(weerlig), ghoentoem (uit guntur) (donder), gielap / ghielap (uit kilat)
(lightning), graana (eklips), hiempoe (om as een bymekaar te bring
(gemeentelike aanbidding)), ietjma (konsensus), Jahoed (Jode), Jawi
(Javanees), kafang (linnerol om die hoof), ka-nalla (asseblief), kalie
(rivier), kamar mandie (kom voor as mandie kamer) (badkamer), kaparring
(houtsandaal), karienkel (manier om te sing), kasm (eed sweer), katel (bed
om dooies op te vervoer), kiefai-jat (begrafnis), kitaabs (boeke), koeffa
(fez), kramat? (heilige graf), labarring (feesdag teen die einde van
Ramadan), lambar ((verloof om in die huwelik te tree), lang-ar
(gebedskamer), lanja (opsê), attjoe (slegte geluk), mannie (verpligte
rituele bad), manieng-al (gesterf), mienta-maaf (verskoon my), maskawi
(besitting), medoura (seremoniële doek om ‘n vrou se gesig te bedek), merang
(fees), mesang (grafsteen), mienta (hoop), moeli-at (oppas), nabis
(profete), nasars (Christene), oenang (om uit te nooi), pang (man of oom),
pasang (om aan te kondig), piejara (konferensie of byeenkoms), poedjie
(persoonlike gebed), poewasa (vas van Ramadaan), poewaasa/ powassa (vas),
Rassoelloellah (die Profeet van God), samba (om ‘n slegte gees te dra ‘evil
spirit’), sammejoa (alles is dieselfde), siesie (aanspreekvorm vir ‘n ou
dame), slamat (gelukwensinge), slamblieer (slag), soeboeg (oggendgebede),
soembai-ing (die lees van die gebed), soempa (om ‘n eed te neem), soppang
(waardig), souer (ontbyt voor die soeboeg), toellies (om te skryf), toering
(hoed met ‘n punt, vroeër deur Maleise mans gedra), tabeetjies (geskenke),
tabie-ien (eerste geslag Moesliems), tramakassie (uit tarima kasi) (dankie),
Davids (1987:50) (1990(a):4-5; 42) (1992(a):42; 47-50), Kotzé
(1983:229-239), (Ponelis (1993:99).)

</quote>

Wat voor soorte kos bedoel "ghantang"?  Kos met rys?

Folks, Elsie pointed to the Malay-derived word _ghantang_ in Afrikaans,
apparently in Cape Afrikaans, at least originally.  According to one source
it has two meanings: (1) a type of food/dish (which rice?), and (2)
'girlfriend' (slang?).

My etymological search seems to point in the direction of this _ghantang_
having been derived from _gantang_, a measure word, apparently originally
for rice, and this seems to be spread beyond Malay and Indonesian and their
Sundic sub-group sporadically all over the Western Malayo-Polinesian group
of
Austronesian:

GANTANG:
Malay and Indonesian:
   Brunei, Malaysia, Sabah, Sarawak: 1 imperial gallon (ca. 4.56 liters or
1.2 U.S. gallons)
      Prior to the 20th century numerous local measures
   Indonesia: 8.5766 liters
   Dutch East Indies (19th – early 20th centuries):
      (1) capacity: 8.38048 liters or 4.09 liters
      (2) weight: 6.15 kilograms
Hiligaynong/Ilonggo (Philippines): gantang ~ ganta: roughly 3 liters

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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