LL-L "Names" 2004.01.14 (07) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 14.JAN.2004 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: Holger Weigelt <platt at holger-weigelt.de>
Subject: "Names"

> From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.01.14 (03) [E]
>
>
> Ron,
>
> Further to our discussion of the origin of "Serb" and "Serbian/Servian",
we
> should remember that the English form of "Hrvat" ("Croat") has changed
also.
> Although I am not entirely sure, the word was first borrowed as "Cravat" -
> hence the neck tie term of that name, which was originally imported from
the
> Balkans. Unfortunately I cannot date this term, or when (indeed if)
"Cravat"
> was replaced by "Croat" in English.
>
> French has "Croate", German has "Kroat"... are these modern 'corrected'
> ethnonyms dating from the post-war era? If not, from which interceding
> language did English receive "Cravat"? Surely it should have been "Croat"
> all along if other European languages use that term as standard?
>
Hello all !
Just by the way: In Eastern Friesland Low Saxon we have only few names for
foreign countries or regions in an own pronounciation - mostly they are used
as heard from German speaking people or German media with little adaptation
to LS. But for the case of Hrvat  / Hrvatska for a long time we knew the
term _Krabatten_ [kr at batn] which can also denote persons from this country.
As a country's name it has to be used as a plural - for example: in d'
Krabatten (= "in the Croatians" meaning: in Croatia). This name - originated
in early contact with displaced or POW Croatian people before and during WW
I - however nowadays is mostly extinct and replaced by the adapted German
_Kroatien_ [kro'a.cI at n]. In the past there have been some place-namings like
_krabattenstē_ (Croatians place) which possibly went back to POW-camps or
similar but I don't know whether these are still in use - if they are,
actually the meaning and origin of the name will be lost for the people
there.
Kind greetings
Holger

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Wow, Holger!  Good one!  I had no idea _Krabatten_ came from _hrvat_
(Croatian for 'Croat') ... but now that you said so it makes sense.  However
... hmmm ...

In other Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects, too, you say _krabat(ter)_,
and it denotes a person, usually a child, that is hard to manage, is "wild."
The plural is _krabatten_ ~ _krabaters_.  I have always assumed that it was
a variant of _klabauter_, which also occurs as _krabauter_, with the same
meaning, except when it is (implied) _Klabauterman_ ~ _Krabauterman_ ~
_Krabaterman_, a mischieveous maritime goblin that sometimes heralds a
ship's doom.  (Aren't there related words in Dutch and Afrikaans?)

I am beginning to wonder if the _hrvati_ in Eastern Friesland where
originally given this as a nickname (assumedly with a touch of xenophobic
disdain) because _hrvat_ sounds a bit like the already existing word
_krabat_.

Interesting ...

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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