LL-L "Names" 2004.01.15 (04) [E]

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.01.15 (01) [A/E/German/Sorbian]

Ron wrote:

> What is also very interesting is that the name Krabat is that of a Sorbian
> (thus West Slavic) fictional character, a 14-year-old boy who ends up
> learning black magic without initially being aware of it.  I assume that
the
> name is linked with what we are talking about here.  The novel/play
_Krabat_
> is a fascinating story really, and it became rather well-known in German
> translation.

You forgot to mention that the author of this book is Otfried Preußler, who
wrote many well-known books for children, including the infamous "Räuber
Hotzenplotz" (who was played in several TV movies by Gerd Fröbe, a.k.a.
"Goldfinger" of James Bond fame). "Krabat", however, is a lot darker than
his other writings and a little too scary for younger children.

Gabriele Kahn

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.01.15 (01) [A/E/German/Sorbian]

Ron wrote:
"However, there is also a Sorbian (Lusatian) folk myth figure named Krabat
who is a magical gnome. His name, too, goes back to "Croat," and this makes
me wonder if this is not the origin of this whole thing."

If I read that correctly, Ron, you're saying that Croat. _Hrvat_ > Ger.
_Krabat_ > thence to all other western European languages including English,
Swedish and E F Low Saxon? Surely Magyar would have been the contact
language (because of the Austro-Hungarian Empire) for German and therefore
wouldn't we expect _*Chorvat_ or even _*Choravat_ or even _*Choravas_ in
German from Magyar _Horvát_?

Deriving _Krabat_ directly from _Hrvat_ seems unlikely unless German
speakers indulged in some determined hypercorrection on the [x] and [v], and
the Eng. retention of the original Croatian [v] in _Cravat_ suggests that it
was obtained via a third language.

Here's a long-haul conspiracy theory for you that may be utterly silly: Ger.
_Krabat_ (but not Eng. _Cravat_ or Swedish _Kravat_) derives from a
hypercorrected Sorbian term. _Sorb_ came from the ethnonym _Serb_ in the
days when the wider Lusatia-eastern Poland area was known as White Serbia
and White Croatia... as it is known that the Croats and Serbs migrated
seemingly everywhere in tandem from time immemorial, there must have been a
White Serbo-Croat (told you it was silly!) term for _Croat_ that fell
gradually into disuse when _Serb_ became _Sorb_... to the extent that it
later meant nothing more than a gnome or a bumbler and was borrowed into
German as such, _krabat_. Probably utterly stupid, but a hat in the ring
nonetheless...

We see a similar but reverse development with the pan-Balkan (Macedonian,
Serbo-Croat, Bulgarian and Turkish) terms _potur_ and _pomak_, if the
sources I have read are to be believed... both terms began as pejoratives
('villager', 'peasant' in Turkish, I believe... and something to do with
trousers!) but gradually became ethnonyms.

Please somebody tell me I'm not insane for actually writing the above
down...

Criostóir.

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Críostóir, you wrote above:

> Surely Magyar would have been the contact language (because of the
> Austro-Hungarian Empire) for German and therefore wouldn't we expect
> _*Chorvat_ or even _*Choravat_ or even _*Choravas_ in German from
> Magyar _Horvát_?

No.  Why would German (or LS for that matter) render Hungarian /h/ as /x/
(written <ch>) when /h/ is available in the native phoneme inventory and /x/
is word-initially foreign?  If German borrowed Hungarian _Horvát_ (which, by
the way, is a fairly common surname in the German-speaking world, often
spelled <Horwat>) I would expect it to be something like *_Horwat_ or
*_Horwaht_.  Also, remember that speakers of Croatian and German have a long
history of direct contacts, not necessarily with Hungarian intercession,
namely in Austria, specifically in Burgenland/Gradišce/Őrvidék (especially
in Neusiedl/Niuzalj/Langató, Eisenstadt/Zeljezno/Csém-Kismarton[?],
Mattersburg/Matrštof/Köhalom, Oberpullendorf/Gornja Pulja/Lipóc,
Oberwart/Borta/Locsmánd and Güssing/Novi Grad/Felsöpéterfa), which of course
has a Magyar (Hungarian) minority as well.  (The names above are shown
thusly: German/Croatian/Hungarian.)

> Deriving _Krabat_ directly from _Hrvat_ seems unlikely unless German
> speakers indulged in some determined hypercorrection on the [x] and [v],
> and the Eng. retention of the original Croatian [v] in _Cravat_ suggests
> that it was obtained via a third language.

No, Críostóir.  I was suggesting to consider the possibility (rather than
"saying") that this _Hrvat_ > _Krabat_ thing happened in Sorbian and then
entered German and/or Lowlands Saxon.  (Lower Sorbian has or had some
contacts with LS near Berlin.)

This would pan out phonologically, since what in Sorbian (for etymological
reasons) is written <ch> is word-initially pronounced [k] in modern
dialects.  This would make people pronounce <chr...> as though it were
written <kr...>.  I am not so sure about the _v_ > _b_ thing, but this is a
very, very common thing to switch, especially in LS.



By the way, German also has _Krawatte_ for 'necktie', assumedly borrowed
from French.  Lowlands Saxon tends to use _binder_ <Binner> (yes, literally
"binder" = 'tie'), or _halsbinder_ <Halsbinner> (lit. "neck binder" =
'necktie').

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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