LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.04 (01) [E/Breton/Portuguese]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: Carlos Eduardo Abbud <ceabbud at yahoo.com.br>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (03) [E/Gaelic]

Dear Sir,
As bretonnant and intersted in celtic cultures, I agree with you about the
need of emphazising to parents in order to make them see that a languages is
a mankind's heritage and it must be protected.
Maybe to force the Mass Media and Internet sites having editions totally in
dangered languages was a good path.
Sincerally yours
professor doctor Carlos Eduardo Le Fur Abbud

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Language use

Estimado prof. Abbud,

Digemer mad!

Obrigado para seua contribuição, e bem-vindo ao grupo dos Lowlanders
"ativos".

Kenavo! D'ur wech all!

Com saudações amigáveis,

Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

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From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (03) [E]


From: Fred van Brederode <f.vanbrederode at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (02) [D/E]


From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (04) [E]

I have had just this kind of experience in Brussels.  My spoken and
listening Dutch is awful, but my reading Dutch is quite good now.  My
French I learned in school, and have found adequate for making small
talk with colleagues from Francophone Africa, and central and eastern
Europe, but not used for research... I have no idea what the vocabulary
is for 'issue desk', 'restricted borrowing rights' or 'please ask a
librarian before photocopying this book'.  The librarians were all,
baffled by having to deal with someone who really did need to have it
said to them in Dutch!  But they coped, and invariably, with politeness.
I think they put it down to English eccentricity.

A fair number of Dutch people must visit Brussels - what do they do?  Do
most Dutch people speak French, or do both French Belgian and
Netherlander switch to English as an acceptable compromise? I have
found it very useful in France to switch to Italian rather than English.


I'm not sure Pat. Dutch people just love to show off. But not very many
Dutch people are able to speak French.
Pat and Fred,

But most Flemish, do speak French, because it is obligatory at school from
the age of 10 years.
French lessons are taken very seriously and important.
It is also obligatory in Wallonia, but it is mainly considered as boring and
unnecessary.
The awareness of Dutch being important in some more upperclass groups in
French spoken Belgium is though growing.


My experience is that using Dutch in Brussels usually works. But then, I am
not there in a dependant situation. I am sure I take advantage of the fact
that I am the consumer in a bar or in a shop.
Maybe reluctantly, but staff always managed to tell me what the price is in
Dutch.
The more expensive a shop is, the more bilingual staff will be. That doesnt
need any explantion of course.


I discussed the language problem with a Flemish friend a while ago. He told
me he was not on to forcing Brusselarians to speak Dutch.
That doesn't make any sense of course. You can't force people to switch
their basic language, but politically, one can organize an
institutionalisation of Dutch being equal in official matters. As it happens
theoretically right now.

He told me the

courtesy was to help each other.
But this courtesy between French spoken Belgians and Flemish generally turns
into one direction. The Dutch speaking person switches.

 My French is not too good, nor is your
Dutch, so how do we meet halfway?
Last summer in France I met a couple from Brussels. While we were doing the
small talk like 'where are you from', they told me they were from Brussels.
So I immediately changed to Dutch 'o maar dan spreekt u ook Nederlands' (I
know it is a teaser).They explained 'wij zijn Franstalig en wij kunnen dat
niet zo goed'
Let me put things clear. Only 14% of Brussels population is Dutch spoken.
Before the war, they were majority. A lot of people converted themselves to
French because of the collaboration of Flemish Nationalists with the Nazis.
A second reason of this conversion, was also the status of French being the
upperclass language (like it allways have been in a way from about the 16th
century onwards).
Flemish or Dutch was an inferior peasant-language, which wouldn't help you
to improve your social position.

 Though it was perfectly said, it really seemed like a hard job
for them. So then I remembered the wise words of my Flemish friend to just
help each other. We did.

It was years ago when we were on a business trip to Brussels. After some
hard work we were celebrating the end of the day on the marked place with
some good Belgian beers. When the beers were finished one of our group liked
to show his knowledge of French. He called the waiter: ‘Garçon, le même’.
The waiter came up to us and said in perfect Dutch: 'Uitstekend meneer, maar
in het vervolg moet u wel zeggen 'la même chose''.
What did we learn: stick to Dutch in Brussels, French is harder for us than
Dutch is for them.
Sometimes it is a lot easier to be Dutch than to be Flemish. Flemish people
are expected to speak an excellent French.
Things are though changing. Because of the big number of Arab (Maroccan)
immigration in Brussels, many French spoken parents send their children to
Dutch spoken schools because they have a much better reputation.
North-African an Turkish immigrants tend to send their children to French
spoken schools.
So those children have much more opportunity to know both languages. The
reason here is mainly not to double language knowledge, but more one of
avoiding a presumed deterioration of school environment.

And yes, when they don’t, I
noticed Belgian (and Dutch) people tend to jump to the modern lingua franca,
English, the harmless solution.
Of course we do not appose against the modern lingua franca (I am using it
right now....). The only problem is - as I repeatedly qouted - the stubborn
and highharted mentality of a group of French spoken immigrants in the
Flemish area who refuse to use a bit of 'courtoisie'. I think it is a
remnant of a language which is losing its power as a former lingua franca in
favour of Eglish.

Denis Dujardin
Flanders

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (02) [D/E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language use
> I do not know how representative this guy is for Flemish-background
residents of Brussels.  I can simply not understand how anyone can view his
own heritage with so much disdain.  (I have not even come across such an
extreme attitude of what almost seems like self-loathing among Israelis that
were born and raised in Germany.)

I cannot judge about individual cases, and visions of Belgians on issues
like this differ. Till the mid of last century, French continued to be
promoted as "the" national language by many. In schools this was often
inposed by different degrees of intimidation. Kids can be mutually cruel and
reinforce this kind of intimidation and even preserve someting of this
attitude, once they are grown up.
When reading political comments in walloon language usenetgroups, defendants
of the walloon language complain of similar intimidations, still strongly
persisting over there.
Prussians have thriven out the use of Dutch as school and church language in
the Kleve area (Niederrhein) in the beginning of the 19th century. They even
forced immigration from the Pfalz to this area (cf. the Pfälzer Dörfer South
of Kleve), breaking the cultural homogeneity.

It is my personal conviction, as regard to Dutch, attitudes are changing.
Since this switch, even when slow, is in our favour, I think it is better to
let it have its natural course, rather tan inverse the intimidation. I
believe one can only win in cultural battles, when one respects everybody's
freedom of choice in private life.
What I see, at meetings of the Chambre Franco-Belge in Lille (France), at
the dinners, generally at the end of the meetings, conversation language is
often switching from French into Dutch. I'm conviced Dutch is not suppressed
any more in business live. I'm also convinced this will work through slowly
through the social behaviour of new generations.
The francisation process in Brussels took several hundreds of years. It is
not realistic to suppose it can be fully reversed in a couple of years.

Further, I'm wundering whether or not these are the real social problems, we
Belgians have to focus on.
In the last two weeks we had a doazen of anti-semitic incidents in the
Antwerp area. One boy was stabbed with a knife in the back, by a group of
other kids, described as Arabic. Stones were thrown at a Jewish bow on a
bike a couple of days later etc. Jewish kids in Antwerp often belong to
Orthodox groups, are easely recognisable, and become easy targets.
We have a strong Arabic population in several towns. Arabic kids are
increasingly frustrated (because of lack of employment, because of
international events, because of ..?). Political parties in the North are
trying to cope with the growth of the "Vlaams Blok", a political party, who
clearly states they want to "encourage" the return of (muslim) foreigners to
their homelands. They got about 25 percent in regional elections.
So we have a quite large marginal third generation immigrants group, that is
rather further and further maginalized.
I'm very much afraid this is growing into a bomb, which will explode some
day.

So I'm less concerned with somme fossiled French-speaking people from
Brussels, who eventually continue to have an anti-Flemish attitude. Downtown
Brussels streets are linguistically predominantly Arabic-Berber by night
anyhow. So I'm much more concerned about the incapacity of our government to
deal with third generation North-African immigrants, than with some fossiled
reportedly anti-Flemish incidents. I personally think the Flemish movement
got almost all it wanted to get. So it's time to look around from time to
time and set priorities.

Regards,
Roger

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (02) [D/E]

Addendum to my comment to:

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language use
> I do not know how representative this guy is for Flemish-background
residents of Brussels.  I can simply not understand how anyone can view his
own heritage with so much disdain.  (I have not even come across such an
extreme attitude of what almost seems like self-loathing among Israelis that
were born and raised in Germany.)

This may be illustrated by the song "De Marollien" by Jef Elbers (dating
from the sixties or early seventies).
I leave it here for a couple of days:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/marol.wma

It dates from times when it was still difficult to motivate parents to send
their kids to Flemish (Dutch language) schools in Brussels.
It is a little ballad about a boy marrying a girl, who's family opts for the
French culture. Their son is sent to a French language school and is ashamed
about his father being Flemish. When the father becomes aware of this, it is
to late for a reversal.
Since Flemish ballads end with a moral: it is recommended to send one's kids
to a Flemish school.
It is in mixed language: Brabantish from Brussels and French.

Some vocabulary:
ket:     boy (in Brussels)
poepa:     father
maske:     girl
fuur:     fair (kermis)
peire:     father
een peer draaien op zijne smoel:    hit him on his face / on his mouth:

Enjoy.
Regards,
Roger

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (02) [D/E]

One more reflection to:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc." <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
To: <lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET>
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (02) [D/E]
> It dates from times when it was still difficult to motivate parents to
send
> their kids to Flemish (Dutch language) schools in Brussels.

Case:
A pupil with an extremely stong cockney accent in a London school.
What should the teacher do:

- Encourage him to learn standard English (with the motivation Cokney = bad
and English = good)?

- Encourage him to learn standard English (with the motivation Cokney = good
but our tricly world forces us to adjust our identity, play the game and use
an "English language mask")?

- Encourage him to use Cockney only, for the preservation of this language
variant, and rest in the reduction of his carreer opprtunities?

- Encourage him to become bilingual, Cockney for the friends and the
playground, and English for literature and contacts with snobs?

In the case of the Brussels song by Elbers,  "Brabantish from Brussels" and
"Dutch" are both called "Flemish" in opposition to French.
While the kid is switching from "Brabantish" to "French", the song presents
this as a betrayal of "Dutch".

So we can solve the enigma by stating that Flemish, Brabantish and
Limburgish are all just dialects of Dutch. In this political spirit the
Taaluniie advized negatively about the recognition of Limburgish in Belgium,
even after Limburgish was recognized for the Netherlands.

Regards,
Roger

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From: marco [evenhuiscommunicatie] <marco at evenhuiscommunicatie.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (03) [E]

> > A fair number of Dutch people must visit Brussels - what do they do?  Do
> > most Dutch people speak French, or do both French Belgian and
> > Netherlander switch to English as an acceptable compromise?  I have
> > found it very useful in France to switch to Italian rather than English.

Folks,

I think even after all these postings about Brussels, the situation as
decribed on this list is still oversimplified. There are francophones in
Brussels that can't speak Dutch, there are people who have their reasons to
avoid speaking Dutch as much as they can, there are people that are
bilingual who are most willingly to switch to Dutch if necessary, there are
bilinguals that clearly have their preferred language, some people form
Brussels speak Dutch with a strong French accent, some speak French with a
strong Brabatish accent, some mix their French with words from Brabantish
(germanic!) dialect of the city and there are even parts of Brussels where
this old Brabantish dialect is still the preferred language in cafés and at
home.
The most complicated situation I once found myself in in Brussels, was when
I met a guy in a café in the Marollen-district. The bar appeared to have a
bilingual name, but in fact the two names where both mixed Dutch/Flemish and
French: 'Bij den Binche' was the "Dutch" version of the name, 'Chez Binchke'
was the "French" version (if I remember correctly). The guy I spoke with,
was speaking the old Brabantish dialect of Brussels with his friends, adding
French words and curses every now and then. I said something to him in
Dutch, but I think he felt uncomfortable in Standard Dutch (probably only
having learned French in school; his dialect only being an unwritten
language with a very low prestige, differing enormously from the Standard
Dutch he heard on tv or radio). So he appoligized for switching to French
and then started to speak French with a very, very strong Brabantish accent
and adding loads of Dutch/Brabantish words. I'm sure he was convinced that
he could get away with this unique mixed language in Paris just as well as
in his own pub. But I'm sure only people that speak French ánd Dutch and
have a little knowledge of Brabantish could follow him.
French was close to him, but it wasn't his real mother tongue. Dutch was
further away from him, but he could well understand it, although he didn't
dare to speak it - afraid as he was to make mistakes. His real mother tongue
was the germanic Brabantish dialect of his city, but that dialect is rapidly
dying out and I bet that over 80% of the francophone people in Brussels
don't even know about the existence of it. (Strange enough, with the actual
dialect gradually disappearing, more and more roadsigns in the
Marollen-district are becoming trilingual French, Dutch and the Brabantish
Brussels dialect: Rue Haute - Hoogstraat - Huëgstroet).
Then I realized that I probably will never fully understand Brussels. I said
that to the man I met in the café and he just replied 'Nobody understands
Brussels. That's why we're here, drinking beer. Allez santé, alleman!'

regards,

Marco

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