LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (01) [E]

Mon Jul 19 16:11:19 UTC 2004

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 19.JUL.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.18 (03) [E]

Beste Luc Hellinckx

Subject: Etymology

> Films like "Shrek" and "Lord of the Rings" seem to have one important
> character in common, and that's the revival of "Orcus". Linguistically at
> least. "Orcus" is the Roman God of death and the underworld, and has come
to
> us in many shapes and forms, during the last two thousand years:

> "ogre" (E, 18th century) < "ogre" (French, early 14th century < *orc) ~
> "orco" (Italian, bogeyman) ~ "ör(re)k" (B) (harsh and callous person,
> tyrant, 16th century, but still in use today) ~ "orke" (Middle High
German)
> ~ "(n)org" (elfish creature in many (South?) German(ic) folk tales, the
> initial _n_ can result from the final n of the article preceding it) ~
"Orc"
> (Tolkien)

Well, in Afrikaans schoolboy slang, to call someone an 'urk' - [@rk] is to
denounce him as a graceless monstrosity. I have never found that word in a
dictionary, but my mother a & grandmother knew it, though they denied ever
using it! So use goes back to before 'The Hobbit' & 'The Lord of the Rings'.

That is not the only insinuation of S. African 'schoolboy language' into
Tolkien's books. Here is another, from the Hobbit, where Bilbo teases the
spiders in Mirkwood to a frenzy by singing a song calling them 'attercop',
Afrikaans 'etterkop' - (pus-head) . This word was identified to his
correspondants by Tolkien as from Old English 'Aetercop' - (poison head);
suitable for an adder or a spider, but sure'nuff in his childhood in
Bloemfontein, the use of that word would have reduced the entire school
playground to a shocked & echoing silence.

> There's another word that has puzzled me lately, "camelot" being the case.
> In Brabantish, "kammelot" is used for anything which is low-quality and
> inferior, "ersatz" we also say (< German occupation during WW2). "Camelot"
> used to be an expensive fabric from the Middle East however (made of camel
> hair...hence the name), but quite soon cheap imitation stuff started
> circulating and so it got a bad name. Now I wonder if there could be any
> relationship with king Arthur's Camelot...and if so, how???

Could the Arthurian 'Camelot' have something to with the Romano-British
'Camelodinum'?

Groete,
Mark

----------

From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.18 (03) [E]

Hello Luc,

You wrote "the initial _n_ can result from the final n of the article
preceding it". You seem to assume that Dutch words 'nurk, nurks', East
Brabant 'nörk' "grumbler, grumpy and unfriendly person" were derived from
the adjective 'ork', Kiliaan 'orck' next to 'norck', Middle Dutch 'norke'
"surly, grumpy". This view is not supported by Franck/Van Wijk's
Etymologisch Woordenboek, which states "Kil. norck  enz. is bezwaarlijk een
jongere, naast Kil. orck, als znw. Nog zuidndl. dial. [..], opgekomen vorm."
To me it is unclear which form was original and which secondary.

Best regards,

Roger Hondshoven

----------

From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology

Luc said:

"There's another word that has puzzled me lately, "camelot" being the
case."

Strangely, I don't think the name _Camelot_ appears in the earlier accounts
of King Arthur. It is difficult though not to see in it the Romano-British
place name (Colonia) Camulodunum, a city now known as Colchester in Essex.
Various attempts have been made to identify KIng Arthur's Camelot with
Cadbury Castle (the largest ancient hillfort in Somerset) and with the Welsh
town of Caerleon, but can there really be any doubt that Camelot <
Camelodunum.

Camelodunum incidentally comes from the name of a Celtic god of war Camulos,
and hence means 'Fort (dun) of Camulos'.

Regarding the cloth of which you speak, Grimms Deutsche Woerterbuch gives it
as: Kamelott, Kamelot or Camelott, and defines it as a material originally
made of camel wool, but which now usually refers to a half-woolen material.
The word also occurs as French camelot / chamelot; Spanish camelote; Italian
cambellotto, ciambelotto; and English camlet / camelot.

The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary gives Camlet, which at first referred
to a very fine, opulent cloth from the east, but was later used to refer to
a less expensive material. It gives the etymology as being from the Arabic
khamlah (  nap, the pile of velvet).(Nap < Middle Dutch = a hairy or downy
surface [on cloth]).

The two words are therefore not related.

John Duckworth
Preston, UK

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Roger (above):

> East Brabant 'nörk' "grumbler, grumpy and unfriendly person"

I wonder if this one is related to German _nörgeln_ 'to grumble', 'to
complain', 'to criticize' (which is attested only since the 17th century).

Luc Hellinckx wrote yesterday under "Names":

> Rivers
> that are called "Roer" (and the like) get their names because they are
> swift-flowing, cf. "roeren" (D), "rühren" (G), "to stir" (E), and "hrôr"
> (Old English), meaning "movement".

Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _röyren_ (<röhren> [rø:3`n] ~ [ry:3`n]) 'to
stir', 'to move'.

'Stir' applies in both senses: (1) transitive: to stir = to mix, (2)
intransitive: to stir = to move.

The _Herkunftsduden_ (which I do not entirely trust when it comes to
non-German items) gives Old English _hroe^ran_ (ligature oe with a macron).
Can anyone think of any Modern English and/or Scots derivation of this?

Furthermore, Old Saxon has _hro^r_ 'busy' (= 'diligent'), and Old Englsh has
_hro^r_ 'busy' (= 'diligent'), 'strong', 'courageous'.

Supposedly this goes back to Indo-European *_k^er(@)-_ 'to mix'.  I don't
understand how the extra /r/ got into the mix, though.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

================================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================