LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.21 (05) [E]

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L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology


Good Evening, Lowlanders!

Troy said: "but it does remain that "at(t)orcoppe" 'spider' does occur in
Old English. "at(t)or" = poison, venom" (realised as "adder", in
modern English); "coppe" = "head". I would tend to trust Tolkein on this
one."

I remember the word _attercop_ being used for 'spider' by some of the very
old people I knew in Lancashire in my youth.Old English was in fact
_a:torcoppe_, correctly enough from Old English  _a:tr_ / _a:t(o)r_ ; OLd
Saxon ettor ; Old High German _eitar_ (whence Modern German Eiter); Old
Norse eitr.

In Lancashire dialect the word was also used metaphorically to refer to an
evil person.

I think the connection Troy makes with _adder_ must be incorrect, since this
word originally had an initial n- : OLd English _nae:d(d)re_ ; Old Saxon
_na:dra_ ( Cf. Middle Dutch _nadre_, Modern Dutch _adder_); Old High German
_ na:tara_ (Modern German _Natter_ )> Old Norse had _nathr_ (with etha), and
Gothic _nadrs_. It probably is related to Latin _natrix_ (a water snake).
Cf. also: Welsh _neidr_ (snake, viper) and OLd Irish _nathir_.

John Duckworth
Preston, UK


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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.21 (02) [E]

Dear Troy,

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

> That may be the case, but it does remain that "at(t)orcoppe" 'spider' does
> occur in Old English. "at(t)or" = poison, venom" (realised as "adder", in
> modern English); "coppe" = "head". I would tend to trust Tolkein on this
> one.

Well, yes. My Sweet's 'The Student's Dictionary of ANGLO-SAXON' gives
'æt(t)ren, æt(t)ern - poisonous, poisoned.' but little direct reference to
the term 'cop' or something like it to 'head'. (They favoured 'heafod -
head'). The closest is 'copp - summit' (which as an Afrikaner i find
heartily satisfying).
This doesn't mean I believe there was no such usage. On the contrary, I
believe there was. & I believe Tolkien heard it first in Afrikaans &
recognised it again, when he found it again, in Old English. The languages
are so closely related, as Mr R Hahn has pointed out in respect of so many
Lowlands languages, that there are a host of common features, including
names.
I read he found himself powerfully moved by the dialect & ancient texts of
his mother's people in the Northwest Midlands of England. I believe his
early contact with Afrikaans gave him, as it were, a foot in the door to
that Learning.
Afrikaans, in comparison to Modern English, rates as extremely conservative
(only in some respects, of course - we decline to decline, & conjugation
should only apply to consenting married couples. As for gender ---: Ahem.)
Very much of what he read as a student of that dialect must have been
immediately clear to him from Afrikaans. I know that is the case with me.

Yrs,
Mark

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