LL-L "Identity" 2004.07.23 (10) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 23.JUL.2004 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Identity

Nice one Ron - on the Northumbrian definition. Is that
quote about Northumbrian's having a 'shibboleth of the
tongue' or something because no one can understand the
language? I have a 1930s US dictionary which says:

'Northumbrian - of or pertaining to the ancient
Anglian Kingdom of Northumbria...a native or
inhabitant of the ancient kingdom of Northumbria (or
modern county of Northumberland). The Anglo-Saxon
dialect spoken in ancient Northumbria (and modern
county).'

Tek id easy,
Glenn

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Identity

Thanks, Glenn.

I particularly like this one:

> "Þe Flemmynges þat woneþ in þe weste side of Wales haueþ ileft her
> straunge speche and spekeþ Saxonliche inow." [1387]

If I understand it correctly, it's "The Flemings that live in Western Wales
have abandoned their foreign speech and speak Saxon (= English) now."

This seems to tally nicely with reports that Flemings first settled in Wales
and later moved to Scotland, hence the surnames Fleming, Welsh and Walsh
given to Scots of Flemish background.  It also tells us that they had
adopted English rather than Welsh as their language.  This dates these
events somewhat earlier than I had assumed.

> "But ye Flemmyngis, yf ye be not wrothe, The grete substaunce of youre
> cloothe..ye make hit of oure Englissh wolle." [1450-1500]

> What hath thenne Flaundres, be Flemmynges leffe or lothe, But a lytell
> madere and Flemmyshe cloothe? [1450-1500]

If I understand it correctly, it's

"You Flemings, if you do not mind, most of your cloth (clothes?) you make of
English wool."

"What then does Flanders have -- Flemings ... like them or leave them --
than a bit of (madder =) dye and a bit of cloth?"

This sounds to me like there was a bit too much trade competition for our
dear Englishmen, a bit of jealousy about the fine, widely coveted fabrics
and clothes the Flemish Johnnie-come-lately's produced.  The tenor seems to
be, "All right, so they make better duds, but ... ugh!"  Fun!

This one gives a nice bit of info for the time:

> "Frisia [L Frisia, Frigia] is a lond vppon þe clyue of þe west occean, and
> bygynneþ in þe souþ side from þe Ryne, and endeþ at þe see of Denmark."
> [1387]

"Frisia [L Frisia, Frigia] is a land situated at the North Sea shore,
beginning south of the Rhine and ending at the Danish coast."

> "He..lete calle þe toune Berwik vp Twede, and þere þai duellede..þai went
> ouere þe see into Irland and brou3t with ham Wymmen..but þe men couþe
nou3t
> vnderstonde þe langage ne þe speche of þe wymmen, neyþer þe wymmen of þe
> men, and þerefore þai speken to-gederes as scottes [F sootz]." [1400]

"He had the town named Berwick upon Tweed, and there they lived ... They
went across the sea into Ireland and brought with them women ... but the men
could understand neither the language nor the speech of the women, neither
the women of the men, and they therefore communicated in Scottish."

> "Wee in Braban bye, Flaundres and Seland, more of marchaundy..then done
all
> other nacions..The marchaundry of Brabane and Selande Be madre and woade."
> [1450-1500]

"We in Brabant, Flanders and Zeeland buy more merchandise ... than do all
other nations ... The merchandise of Brabant and Zeeland being madder[1] and
woad[2]."

[1] madder: _Rubia tinctorum _, the roots of which yield reddish-purple dye
[2] woad: _Isatis tinctoria_, a plant from which blue dye was made prior to
the use of indigo

I love reading those original texts.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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