From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 1 01:28:20 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 17:28:20 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.02.29 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.FEB.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: niels winther [nwi at dfds.dk] Subject: Etymology Ron wrote: > I believe that at one time _pen_ and _pose_ could be used > for the same thing. Nowadays, many people use _pen_ > generically for "(any sort of)writing instrument," pretty > much the way English speakers use "pen." I think > _pose_ ~ _poos'_ is used specifically for (1) > "writing quill" and for (2) "(metal) nib of an ink pen or > fountain pen."........................................... > .... Now, I have no idea where this _pose_ comes from, > and I cannot find any cognate in related languages. > Does any of you have any idea? Hello Ron, In Danish _pennepose_ is the hollow end of the feather from which the quill is cut. Danish _pose_ in general is something swollen, something hollow, something puffed up, most often used nowadays for a small bag or sack. Also used as a verb. Cheers Niels ---------- From: jkrause Subject: Etymology Ron, The words I found in my Pluatdietsch dictionary was "tintfada"--literally "ink feather" or "stolfada" literally "steel feather." Both could be used, apparently to mean "pen." Jim ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Thanks, Niels and Jim, for the input above. Jim, the Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch) word _tintfada_ reminds me of a couple of things. First of all, let me state that I am pretty sure that _tintfada_ is a "semi-loan." The first component, _tint_, must be a loan from ("High") German _Tinte_ 'ink'. If it were an indigenous word I would expect _Dint_. In fact, that is the word in the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) of Germany: _Dinte_ or _Dint_. These are obviously related to English "tint," perhaps loaned from Italian _tinto_, and to the earlier English form _tinct_, going back to Latin _tīnctus_ 'color'. German has _Tinte_ and Yiddish טי� ט _tint_ for 'ink', feminine gender nouns derived from feminine forms: Old German _tincta_, from Medieval Latin _tīncta_ 'dyed liquid', related to the verb _tingere_ 'to dye', which is related to German _tunken_ and perhaps to its possible English cognate "to dunk" (originally *"to immerse in dyer's liquid"?). (By the way, Estonian, a Finnic language, made Lowlands Saxon _dint_ into _tint_ -- Germanic d > Finnic t -- and also has _tindipott_ 'ink-well' from Lowlands Saxon _dintpot_ 'ink-well', lit. "ink pot." Latvian, a Baltic language, has _tinte_ for 'ink', probably also from Lowlands Saxon, since Latvian has _d-_ only in more recent loanwords. I am basing my assumptions on the fact that these languages have more and earlier Lowlands Saxon influences than German ones.) As I said, Lowlands Saxon has _dint(e)_ for 'ink'. An alternative word is _blak_ (). Obviously, this is a cognate of English "black," which comes from Old English _blæc_, said to be of uncertain origin. I cannot think of any cognates in Dutch and German, though Old German has _blah_ (for 'ink'?). The word is alive and well as *the* word for 'ink' in North Germanic varieties: Danish _blæk_, Norwegian _blekk_, Swedish _bläck_, Icelandic _blek_ and Old Norse _blek_. I am wondering if we are dealing with true cognates or with some sort of loaning one way or another. I am wondering if English "black" and Scots _black_ originally meant something like "ink-colored," and if the original word from 'black' was "swart," which would be consistent with the words for 'black' in other Germanic languages: Dutch _zwart_, Afrikaans _swart_, W. Frisian _swart_, Lowlands Saxon _swart_ ~ _swat_, Old Saxon _swart_, Danish _sort_, Norwegian _svart_, Swedish _svart_, Icelandic _svört_, Old Norse _svartr_, German _schwarz_, Yiddish שװאַרץ _švarc_, Old German _swarz_ < Germanic *_swartaz_. This is consistent with the meanings the cognates in English: "swart" and "swarthy" (~ "swarty") (dark-hued) < Old English _sweart_. English "ink," Scots _ink_, Dutch _ink_, Afrikaans _ink_ and W. Frisian _inket_ apparently go back to Latin _encau(s)tum_ (from Greek εγκάυστων _egkáuston_), denoting a special type of purple ink used by Roman emperors in signatures. Middle English _inke_ ~ _enke_ are reportedly based on Old French _enque_. What about the Dutch, Afrikaans and W. Frisian words, though? Are they derived from French also? As for the donor words (1) _encau(s)tum_ and (2) _tīncta_ on which some Germanic words for "ink" are based, what is of primary relevance: (a) that (1) follows the route of known early French influences (on the Low Countries and Britain), or (b) that (1) is used in areas once under Roman occupation while the medieval loan (2) and native words (_blak_, etc.) are used in areas that defied or evaded Roman occupation? Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 1 01:42:37 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 17:42:37 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.02.29 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.FEB.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: am114802 at ohio.edu Subject: LL-L "Help Needed" [E]: Questions Concerning Language Schools Dear Lowlanders: I am in the process of planning a three-month trip to study Frisian, Scots, and Icelandic; that is study each language for one month. However, I am having trouble finding language schools for Frisian and Scots. If anyone knows about language schools or tutors that teach Frisian or Scots, could you please send me information via email. Any suggestions would also be greatly appreciated. Thank you kindly. Sincerely, Adam Moskey ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Help needed Hey, Adam! Lucky d..., uh, you! Boy, what a great opportunity! As for Westerlauwer Frisian (the varieties used in the Netherlands), please contact AFÛK, the Center for Frisian Adult Education in Ljouwert/Leeuwarden, Netherlands: http://www.language-learning.net/cgi-bin/show/US/orgs/orgSeite18.htm I have a couple of their course books. By the way, their site comes with a nifty course finder utility! Folks, please submit relevant information to the List, since such information would be welcomed by many of us. Best of luck, Adam! What an exciting summer ahead of you! Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 1 17:42:31 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:42:31 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.01 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Brooks, Mark Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.01.25 (03) [E] Frank wrote: "Any other examples of Hindi words in that area?" Several years ago I was reading something about Guyana, and much to my surprise I learned that they had a relatively large population (at least it seemed large to me) of Hindus. As I checked into it, I learned that much like they did elsewhere the British brought in many Indians to their far-flung colonies. Perhaps, there was some mutual contact in the region. Just a thought. Mark ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 1 17:53:37 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:53:37 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Customs" 2004.03.01 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Heinrich Becker Subject: LL-L "customs" >Dear all, > in my hometown - a Reformed enclave - in Western part of Catholic Muensterland close to the Dutch border, people keep still some of very, very old customs since fare more than 500 years. They call it FASTOABEND AND BUXENBEER. Habits are different from Catholic inspired Carneval Almost the young bachelors of the community are gathering in groups and collect eggs and homemade dry sausage for their evening party. By the way, the day is humid enough.Celebration is always held on a farm! The farmer invited his guests with the words: " Wieset so guot und kuomt'n annern Sunndag lück to mi up Fastoabend. Fuosel un Beer, Piepen und Tabak, un'n Stück van'n fett Schwien, alls, wat Küök un Keller vermag, sall de Biädden ( pleased ones) nich verwehrt sien. Un makt ju wat Lust un Pläseer und wieset so guot un kuomt'n Sunndag to de Wirtschaft no'n Branntwien." In English: Be so kind and appear the other Sunday for my Shrovetide party. There will be enough hooch ( rotgut) and beer, pipes and tobacco and a piece of fat pork, everything, what kitchen and cellar can offer. Have a lot of joy and pleasure. Next Sunday we'll meet at the pub for having a brandy. Neighbors of this farmer are supposed to decorate the barn and to prepare on both days the meal from the collected food. After the meal they get together again for dancing. On Sunday after Shrovetide they celebrate their BUXENBEER, initially only for young men ( buxe -= trousers, beer = party ) who were supposed to enjoy the rest of their formerly homemade beer from a wooden jar they called "Teite". Docile Catholics in neighborhood around formerly suspected those heathen habits. Most of them converted later - the price of secularisation. Nowadays it is one of the biggest party in county. In northern Parts of Lowland aerea ( Lower Saxony, Drenthe, Twente or Friesland nor in other parts) I did not find out any similar festivity except riflemen meetings, which you can find all over. Perhaps someone knows, where customs like that still are being held. Sincerely Heinrich Becker ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Customs Thanks a lot for that interesting description (above), Heinrich. Here are just a couple of explanatory notes for other Lowlanders. (1) Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _Fastelavend_ etc. refers to Shrovetide in Roman Catholic communities, while in many Protestant communities it refers to New Year's Eve. (2) Besides 'beer', _Beer_ means 'party' or 'celebration'. Once again, the preferred drink lends an occasion the name, as do "tea" in non-American English (referring to 'dinner' as well) and _Kaffee_ and _kaffe_ (literally "coffee") in Geman- and Scandinavian-speaking communities respectively. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 1 23:38:08 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:38:08 -0800 Subject: LL-L "History" 2004.03.01 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.01 (01) [E] At 09:42 AM 03/01/04 -0800, Brooks, Mark wrote: >Several years ago I was reading something about Guyana, and much to my >surprise I learned that they had a relatively large population (at least it >seemed large to me) of Hindus. As I checked into it, I learned that much >like they did elsewhere the British brought in many Indians to their >far-flung colonies. Perhaps, there was some mutual contact in the region. >Just a thought. Since major economic troubles that have arisen since independence, large numbers have left, including one of my very best friends, who is also my accountant. According to http://geocities.com/TheTropics/Shores/9253/History.html, East Indians came to Guyana as indentured workers beginning at the beginning of the 19th century. Probably locally many Dutch and French influences on the language, which is very hard to distinguish from Trinidadian and other Caribbean dialects. I should ask my friend. Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Canada ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 1 23:49:11 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:49:11 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.01 (04) [LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: Oostfreesk Moy, Ik heb net seyn dat dey websteed' van Plattdütsk bi d' Arbeid weer updated is. Dey neye websteed' is vööl beter dan dey olde; nou kinst du spölen spölen, na 't Oostvreys lüystern en vööl meer. Kyk mal rin! Kenneth ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Velen dank, Kenneth. > Kyk mal rin! Dat dey lüyd' dat ook douen köönt, schullen wy jüm ook dey net-adress geven: http://www.platt-in-action.de/ Ik wünsch Jou veel pleseyr daar mit. Gröytens! Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 2 05:05:02 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:05:02 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.01 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: "Etymology" > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Etymology > > Dear Lowlanders, > > Here's another Middle Saxon ("Middle Low German") loan in English > (apparently not in Scots), though the folks at the Oxford Dictionary aren't > quite sure about it and if it is from the "Middle" period: > > QUILL: > (1) large feather; (2) hollow stem of a feather > (a) (feather) pen (for > writing with ink), (b) (feather) plectrum, (c) (feather) toothpick; (3) > porcupine spine; (4) curled-up piece of cinnamon or cinchona bark. > > < (Middle) Saxon _quiele_ > > If this word survived in a Modern Lowlands Saxon ("Low German") dialect, I > would expect it to be *_kwyle_ (* ~ * *['kwi:le]) or *_kwyl_ > (* ~ * *['kwi:l]). However, I am not aware of any such word. > Is anyone else? I cannot find any such word in the language varieties of > our precious Saxonized neighbors to the north either, nor in Dutch and > Afrikaans, two of the Franconian cousins of Lowlands Saxon. In Dutch I > would expect *_kwijl_, but such a word does not seem to exist in this sense, > and "quill" is rendered as _pen_, _schacht_ or _stekel_. In Afrikaans I > would expect *_kwyl_, but again, this does not seem to be used in the sense > of "quill," and _skag_ (pl. _skagte_), _pen_ and _stekel_ are used, > depending upon context. W. Frisian has _pin_ ~ _pinne_ and _stikel_. Hello Ron ! In Eastern Friesland Low Saxon there is a noun "kwîl" and a corresponding verb "kwīlen" but these have nothing to do with feathers. The verb means "to slaver" and the noun denotes the spittle running out of somebody's mouth. > In Modern Lowlands Saxon, these correspond to _schacht_ ([Sax(t)]) ~ > _schecht_ ([SEx(t)]) 'thin stick', 'switch', 'crop', _pen_ ( [pE.n]) > 'writing instrument', 'pen', 'quill', and _stekel_ ( ~ > ['ste:kl] ~ [stE:kl]) 'spine', 'prick', 'quill'. Obviously, _pen_ is > related to English "pen" and to Scots _pen_, derived from Old French > _penne_, which goes back to Latin _penna_ 'feather'. Scandinavian, too, has > _pen_ for 'pen', Icelandic _penni_. The EFLS term for thin stick is "stik" and a pen is named "päen" Regards Holger ---------- From: Holger Weigelt Subject: "Etymology" > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Etymology > > Dear Lowlanders, > > Here's another Middle Saxon ("Middle Low German") loan in English > (apparently not in Scots), though the folks at the Oxford Dictionary aren't > quite sure about it and if it is from the "Middle" period: > > QUILL: > (1) large feather; (2) hollow stem of a feather > (a) (feather) pen (for > writing with ink), (b) (feather) plectrum, (c) (feather) toothpick; (3) > porcupine spine; (4) curled-up piece of cinnamon or cinchona bark. > > < (Middle) Saxon _quiele_ > > If this word survived in a Modern Lowlands Saxon ("Low German") dialect, I > would expect it to be *_kwyle_ (* ~ * *['kwi:le]) or *_kwyl_ > (* ~ * *['kwi:l]). However, I am not aware of any such word. > Is anyone else? I cannot find any such word in the language varieties of > our precious Saxonized neighbors to the north either, nor in Dutch and > Afrikaans, two of the Franconian cousins of Lowlands Saxon Hello Ron ! I just wrote about the EFLS words "kwîl" and "kwīlen" which have nothing to do with feathers but I forgot to write the following: Why don't You try it with German "Kiel" ? A "Federkiel" exactly means the lower part of a feather where it is attached to the bird's skin but the word also means the writing tool as a whole. You find the same word in LS. The word has "keel" as an other meaning, too. Greetings Holger ---------- From: Holger Weigelt Subject: "Etymology" > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Etymology > > Thanks, Niels and Jim, for the input above. > > Jim, the Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch) word _tintfada_ reminds me > of a couple of things. > > First of all, let me state that I am pretty sure that _tintfada_ is a > "semi-loan." The first component, _tint_, must be a loan from ("High") > German _Tinte_ 'ink'. If it were an indigenous word I would expect _Dint_. > In fact, that is the word in the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) of Germany: > _Dinte_ or _Dint_. These are obviously related to English "tint," Not everywhere in the LS area ! - EFLS only uses "enkert", "enkt" or "inkt" which is obviously related to English "ink". A word "tint" or "dint" isn't known anywhere in Eastern Friesland. The only possibility for this was if it was directly taken from German "Tinte" when it would be "tient" which I never heard. Holger ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Moyen, Holger! Thanks for the input (above). > A word "tint" or "dint" isn't known anywhere in Eastern Friesland. The only > possibility for this was if it was directly taken from German "Tinte" when > it would be "tient" which I never heard. I, too, am suspecting it to be a German loan. > Why don't You try it with German "Kiel" ? Indeed! Good one, Holger! German _(Feder-)Kiel_ and LS _(vedder-)keyl_ 'thick bottom part of a feather'. I think the reason why I didn't make the connection is that I was expecting something with /kw.../ (). By the way, the origin of German _(Feder-)Kiel_ and LS _(vedder-)keyl_ appears to be unknown. Lowlanders, I'm wondering if this goes back to a Romance variety. The only thing I can think of in French is _quille_ in the sense of 'pin (of ninepins/skittle)' (German _Kegel_, LS _kegel_) ... Hmmm ... _kegel_ and _quille_ may be related. _Kegel_ goes back to Germanic *_kagila_, originally probably meaning 'pin', 'stick', 'pole' 'wooden figure', diminutive of dialectal _kag_ 'stem'. _Kegel_ is related to Dutch _kegel_ 'icicle'. Incidentally, the other French word _quille_, like Spanish _quilla_ (> Basque _gila_?), Portuguese _quilha_, Italian _chiglia_ and Romanian _chilă_ appear to be Germanic loans, related to their English counterpart "keel" < Middle English _kele_ Old Norse _kjölr_ (cognate of Old English _cele_ 'bill of (ancient-type) ship'). (English > Manx _kewyl_, _kiouyl_?) Note also (Middle Saxon _kyl_ ~ _kil_ ~ _kel_ >) Lowlands Saxon _kyl_ ~ _keyl_ ( ~ > German _Kiel_, Estonian _kiil_, Latvian _ķīlis_, Lithuanian _kilis_, Polish _kil_?), Afrikaans _kiel_, Dutch _kiel_ (> Russian киль _kil'_?), W. Frisian _kyl_, Danish _køl_, Norwegian _kjøl_ (> Saami _gielas_?), Swedish _köl _ (> Finnish _köli_), Icelandic _kjölur_, German _Kiel_ and Yiddish קיל _kil_. Note also Slavonic varieties: Polish _kil_, Czech _kýl_, Slovak _kýl_, Serbo-Croatian _kilj_, Bulgarian кил _kil_, Ukrainian кіль _kil'_ and Russian киль _kil'_. Sorting through *this* loaning "mess" looks like a challenge, doesn't it? Kumpelmenten! Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 2 15:45:07 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 07:45:07 -0800 Subject: LL-L "History" 2004.03.02 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: From: "Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc." Subject: Cultural history These days Belgium gets the international press because of a court case against a Mr Dutroux & Co for kidnapping at least 6 girls and murdering at least 4. Dutroux didn't act alone, and it took quite some time to investigators to check all his connections and eventual networks. So this case is brought in court about 8 years after Dutroux is caught. This is even a long time for Belgian standards. It was preceded by a lot of scandals, including the withdrawal of the investigation from an examining magistrate (onderzoeksrechter; juge d' instruction) by the Belgian High Court (Hof van Cassatie, also Hof van Verbreking, Cour de Cassation), because he attended a spaghetti "souper" (evening dinner) organized by the friends a saved girl. This sentence is well known as the "spaghetti-arrest". Magistrates have to be impartial, but the population didn't understand, and participated largely at a massively attended protest march (called "witte mars" because of the white ribbons worn at the occasion) Since Dutroux was caught, shortly after the disappearance of a (saved) girl from Bertrix, in the Luxemburgian Ardennes, the "Assisenhof / Cour d'Assices" (jury court) of Arlon is competent. We use the opportunity for telling a few things about Arlon (Arel in Luxembourgish, Aarlen in Dutch) The town surrounds a fortification on a steep hill, at the crossing point of the old Roman road W-E from Reims to Trier with the Roman road N-S from Tongeren to Metz. The Roman name of the site was "Orolaunum vicus". The pagus of Arlon became a Carolingian County, later (around 1200) a marquisate. In 1214 it became part of the the County (later Duchy) of Luxembourg. Luxemburg became the "Dépt. des Forêts" under French occupation. At the Vienna Congress it was assigned to the king of the Netherlands, separately from the remainder of the Southern provinces, as a Grand-Duchy, as compensation for the territories the Nassau family lost in Germany. This also explains why it was subject to a separate hereditary regime, and went to another branch of the Nassau family at the end of the 19th century. But before, there had been the Belgian revolution. As a result of the peace treaty of London, the East of the province of Limburg as also the East of Luxembourg was left to the King of the Netherlands. Basically Luxembourg was split along the Romance - Germanic language borders. For strategic reasons though, the fortified city of Arlon in the South-East, and the surrounding villages, though linguistically Germanic, were granted to Belgium. Arlon became the capital of the Belgian West of Luxembourg. Since the large majority of the new province was Romance-speaking, French became rapidly the leading language in Arlon. Germanic dialects are still spoken by some people in the villages around Arlon. Some groups are promoting standardized Luxembourgish in the area, as a support for language survival. Regards, Roger ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 3 17:43:46 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 09:43:46 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Virus protection" 2004.03.03 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Virus protection Folks, Several nasty computer viruses are making the rounds again. Please make sure your computers are safe from them, Lowlanders. To help you with this, I am recycling a few pieces of information I have received about this. Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net http://www.lowlands-l.net P.S.: And welcome to all of you who joined or rejoined us recently! *** Here is a list list of things that you ***MUST*** remember about virtually all viruses these days: 1. They fake the sender (From:) address, meaning... If you receive a bounce saying that you sent a message, or that you sent a virus, you are probably not infected. AND If you receive an e-mail from someone in the school that has a virus, they probably aren't the ones that are infected. 2. If you get an *unusual* message from anyone--EVEN FROM SOMEONE YOU KNOW--with an attachment, do NOT open it. Please remember these important tips and you will minimize your risk of becoming infected, and maximize your sanity when you start getting virus related bounce messages. For more information about this generation of viruses, keep reading. Otherwise, have a good day! Computer viruses are becoming very sophisticated. They contain their own e-mail "servers", which allow them to send out forged e-mail, they scan your computer looking for e-mail addresses to use in the "From:" address of these forged e-mails, and they install backdoors on your computer so people can access your files remotely or use your PC to attack other PCs. Many providers do an excellent job at keeping you all protected from these viruses, but since the viruses spread faster than ever nowadays (covering the globe in mere hours), you can still be exposed before virus signature files can be created and updated on the university's central virus scanning servers. *** There is a new variant on a recent virus. Here are some of the subject lines you may receive: (Blank) Announcement ApprovedNews Attention automatic responder Bug Current Status EXPIRED ACCOUNT For your information hello hi, it's me hi IMPORTANT Information Warning Love is Love is... Please read Please reply Re: Approved Re: Thank You Re: Read it immediately read now! Read this Readme Recent news Recent news Something for you Undeliverable message Unknown You have 1 day left You use illegal File Sharing... Your IP was logged Your account is about to be expired Your credit card Your order is being processed Your order was registered Your request is being processed Your request was registered And here are some of the bodies it may have: Check the attached document. Details are in the attached document. You need Microsoft Office to open it. Greetings Here is the document. Here it is I have your password :) I wait for your reply. I wait for your reply. I'm waiting Okay I'm waiting Information about you Is that from you? Is that yours? Kill the writer of this document! OK Everything ok? Please see the attached file for details Please, reply Read the details. Reply See the attached file for details See you Here it is See you Something about you Take it The document was sent in compressed format. We have received this document from your e-mail. You are a bad writer You are bad And here are some of the attachment names: creditcard.bat creditcard.zip details.zip mail.zip notes.zip part1.zip paypal.zip photo.zip textfile.zip vpf.zip website.zip %random characters%.zip If you get a message that match these criteria. Delete it immediately. For more information on viruses, or to see if you just received a virus message go to: http://vil.mcafee.com This site will not only give you a rundown of the current virus threats, but will give you the option of searching for viruses based on keywords (e.g. the subject line of the suspicious e-mail). *** There is another virus making the rounds. This one comes with a .ZIP file that is password protected. The e-mail will tell you the password to open the .ZIP file. If you get this, please delete it. More and more viruses are using .ZIP files to propogate because these files are generally not blocked by e-mail servers. Rule of thumb: If you get a strange message with an attachment, just delete it. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 3 18:43:35 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 10:43:35 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.03 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Morphology Dear Lowlanders, I am fascinated by what seems to be morphemic change. This includes Lowlandic cases of seeming change of verb roots. (Note my use of "seeming". I am implying a question, or an invitation for you to explain.) Both in Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch) and in Afrikaans it looks as though the infinitive suffix /-(@)n/ has been incorporated into the roots of the verbs for 'to go', 'to stand' and 'to do'. (< > = conventional German-based orthographic representation) First "regular" cases ('go' 'stand' 'do'): Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German): Root: /gaa-/ /staa-/ /dou-/ Infinitive: gaan () staan () dou(e)n () 1st sg.: ik ga () ik sta () ik dou () 1st pl.: wy gaat ~ gaan () wy staat ~ staan () wy dout ~ doun () Standard Dutch: Root: /gaa-/ /staa-/ /duu-/ Infinitive: gaan staan doen 1st sg.: ik ga ik sta ik doe 1st pl.: wij gaan wij staan wij doen Now "irregular" ones: Standard Afrikaans (which has -0 suffixes throughout): Root: /gaan-/ /staan-/ /duun-/ Infinitive: gaan staan doen 1st sg.: ek gaan ek staan ek doen 1st pl.: wy gaan wy staan wy doen Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch): Root: /gaan-/ /staan-/ /doun-/ Infinitive: (/gaan- at n/) gane () (/staan- at n/) stane () (/doun- at n/) doune () 1st sg.: ek ga () ek sta () ik dou () 1st pl.: wi gane () wy stane () wy doune () (Please correct me if I am wrong anywhere.) Two questions: (1) Is it really absorption of infinitive /-n/ into the root? (If not, what is it?) (2) Are there other Lowlands or related language varieties that do this or something of this sort? Thanks in anticipation. Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 3 20:26:42 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:26:42 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.03 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Morphology Dear Lowlanders, OK, so I'm responding to my own request ... ;-) > Both in Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch) and in Afrikaans > it looks as though the infinitive suffix /-(@)n/ has been incorporated > into the roots of the verbs for 'to go', 'to stand' and 'to do'. I believe the verb "to see" falls into this category also: (< > = conventional German-based orthographic representation) Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German): Root: /zey-/ Infinitive: sey(e)n () 1st sg.: ik sey () 1st pl.: wy seyt ~ sey(e)n () Imperative: sey! Standard Dutch: Root: /zii-/ Infinitive: zien 1st sg.: ik zie 1st pl.: wij zien Imperative: zie! Standard Afrikaans (which has -0 suffixes throughout): Root: /sii-/ Infinitive: sien 1st sg.: ek sien 1st pl.: wy sien Imperative: sien! Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch): Root: /zeyn-/ Infinitive: seyne(n) ( ~ ) 1st sg.: ek sey ( ~ ) 1st pl.: wy seyne ( ~ ) Inperative: sey! () Note that Plautdietsch seems inconsistent in the cases of _doune(n)_ ('to do') and _seyne(n)_ ('to see'). This is what I suspect is going on here: Basically, Afrikaans and Plautdietsch do not permit, or do not "like," a verb root to end with a (long?) vowel or a diphthong. To overcome this "deficiency" in a few roots, they insert or incorporate an /-n-/, which may or may not be "inspired" by infinitive /-n/. In Plautdietsch, the seeming inconsistency in _doune(n)_ ('to do') and _seyne(n)_ ('to see') -- /-n-/ in the infinitive and the plural forms but not in the 1st person singular and in the imperative forms -- could be explained in the following way. Plautdietsch does not permit verb-root-final vowels or diphthongs only if the root takes on a suffix that begins with a vowel. This would explain permissible _ek ga_ (since this has a zero suffix) versus non-permissible *_wy gae(n)_ (*), correct _wy gane(n)_ (). While in the case of Plautdietsch there seem to be indications that the /-n-/ is truly epenthetic (i.e., conditionally inserted to solve an occasional morphophonological problem), Afrikaans seems to have actually incorporated the /-n-/ on the morphemic level (since there are no instances without it). Any alternative analyses, anyone? Regards< Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 3 22:21:55 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:21:55 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.03 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Morphology Oops! Corrections: > Standard Afrikaans (which has -0 suffixes throughout): > Root: /sii-/ > Infinitive: sien > 1st sg.: ek sien > 1st pl.: wy sien > Imperative: sien! This should have been: Root: (/sii-n-/ >) /siin-/ sien 'to see', sien! 'see!' As in the other cases: Root: (/gaa-n-/ >) /gaan-/ gaan 'to go', 'go!' Root: (/staa-n-/ >) /staan-/ staan 'to stand', 'stand!' Root: (/duu-n-/ >) /duun-/ doen 'to do', 'do!' Cf. Standard Dutch: Root: /zii- at n/ sien 'to see', /zii-0/ zie! 'see!' Root: /gaa- at n/ gaan 'to go', /gaa-0/ ga! 'go!' Root: /staa- at n/ staan 'to stand', /staa-0/ sta! 'stand!' Root: /duu- at n-/ doen 'to do', /duu-0/ doe! 'do!' What about Zeelandic (Zeeuws) and Western Flemish? Since Afrikaans has this trait, I wonder if the "seeds" for this were inherited from Zeelandic (Zeeuws). I further wonder if this can be corroborated by means of data from Dutch-, or rather Zeelandic-based creoles like Skepi/Essequibo/Rupununi (Guayana), Berbice (Guayana), Petjoh/Pecok (Java, Indonesia) and Virgin Islands Creole ("Negerhollands," "Negerzeeuws," U.S. Virgin Islands, formerly Danish West Indies). Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 4 01:19:04 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 17:19:04 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.03 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: "Etymology" > From: Holger Weigelt > Subject: "Etymology" > > > From: R. F. Hahn > > Subject: Etymology > > > > Dear Lowlanders, > > > > Here's another Middle Saxon ("Middle Low German") loan in English > > (apparently not in Scots), though the folks at the Oxford Dictionary > aren't > > quite sure about it and if it is from the "Middle" period: > > > > QUILL: > > (1) large feather; (2) hollow stem of a feather > (a) (feather) pen (for > > writing with ink), (b) (feather) plectrum, (c) (feather) toothpick; (3) > > porcupine spine; (4) curled-up piece of cinnamon or cinchona bark. > > > > < (Middle) Saxon _quiele_ > > > > If this word survived in a Modern Lowlands Saxon ("Low German") dialect, I > > would expect it to be *_kwyle_ (* ~ * *['kwi:le]) or > *_kwyl_ > > (* ~ * *['kwi:l]). However, I am not aware of any such > word. ... > Hello Ron ! > I just wrote about the EFLS words "kwîl" and "kwīlen" which have nothing to > do with feathers but I forgot to write the following: > Why don't You try it with German "Kiel" ? A "Federkiel" exactly means the > lower part of a feather where it is attached to the bird's skin but the word > also means the writing tool as a whole. > You find the same word in LS. The word has "keel" as an other meaning, too. > Greetings > Holger > ... > Moyen, Holger! > > Thanks for the input (above). > > > A word "tint" or "dint" isn't known anywhere in Eastern Friesland. The > only > > possibility for this was if it was directly taken from German "Tinte" when > > it would be "tient" which I never heard. > > I, too, am suspecting it to be a German loan. > > > Why don't You try it with German "Kiel" ? > > Indeed! Good one, Holger! German _(Feder-)Kiel_ and LS _(vedder-)keyl_ > 'thick bottom part of a feather'. I think the reason why I didn't make the > connection is that I was expecting something with /kw.../ (). By the > way, the origin of German _(Feder-)Kiel_ and LS _(vedder-)keyl_ appears to > be unknown. > Hello Ron ! The meaning of German "Kiel" in "Federkiel" as well as in the boat's "Kiel" directly correspondents with "Keil" (wedge, jack) which in LS is "kîl" (or German based orthography: "Kiel"). Possibly "Kiel" is a LS loan in German. Regards Holger ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 4 01:21:34 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 17:21:34 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.03 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.MAR.2004 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: "Morphology" > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Morphology > > Dear Lowlanders, > > I am fascinated by what seems to be morphemic change. This includes > Lowlandic cases of seeming change of verb roots. > > (Note my use of "seeming". I am implying a question, or an invitation for > you to explain.) > > Both in Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch) and in Afrikaans it looks as > though the infinitive suffix /-(@)n/ has been incorporated into the roots of > the verbs for 'to go', 'to stand' and 'to do'. > > (< > = conventional German-based orthographic representation) > > First "regular" cases ('go' 'stand' 'do'): > > Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German): > Root: /gaa-/ /staa-/ /dou-/ > Infinitive: gaan () staan () dou(e)n () > 1st sg.: ik ga () ik sta () ik dou () > 1st pl.: wy gaat ~ gaan () > wy staat ~ staan () > wy dout ~ doun () > > Standard Dutch: > Root: /gaa-/ /staa-/ /duu-/ > Infinitive: gaan staan doen > 1st sg.: ik ga ik sta ik doe > 1st pl.: wij gaan wij staan wij doen > > Now "irregular" ones: > > Standard Afrikaans (which has -0 suffixes throughout): > Root: /gaan-/ /staan-/ /duun-/ > Infinitive: gaan staan doen > 1st sg.: ek gaan ek staan ek doen > 1st pl.: wy gaan wy staan wy doen > > Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch): > Root: /gaan-/ /staan-/ /doun-/ > Infinitive: (/gaan- at n/) gane () > (/staan- at n/) stane () > (/doun- at n/) doune () > 1st sg.: ek ga () ek sta () ik dou () > 1st pl.: wi gane () > wy stane () > wy doune () > > (Please correct me if I am wrong anywhere.) > > Two questions: > > (1) Is it really absorption of infinitive /-n/ into the root? (If not, what > is it?) > > (2) Are there other Lowlands or related language varieties that do this or > something of this sort? > > Thanks in anticipation. > > Reinhard/Ron > Eastern Friesland Lowlands Saxon (Low German) has: Root: /gó-/ /stó-/ /dau-/ Infinitive: gón () stón () daun () 1st sg.: ik gó () ik stó () ik dau () wī stónt ~ stót () wī daunt ~ daut ~ dau* () *some speakers use such reduced forms by time but those aren't possible in all cases (_gó_ and _dau_ but _stónt_/_stót_). Regards Holger ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 4 15:24:24 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 07:24:24 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.03 (05) [E] My Modern Danish dictionary says that Low Saxon 'kiel' means the same as wyk (Danish 'vig', Dutch 'wijk'), and the is also the meaning used in the city name Kiel - originally 'tome Kiel' which in Danish would be 'i kilen' or 'i vigen' judging from my dictionary Cheers, Kenneth > Hello Ron ! > The meaning of German "Kiel" in "Federkiel" as well as in the boat's "Kiel" > directly correspondents with "Keil" (wedge, jack) which in LS is "kîl" (or > German based orthography: "Kiel"). Possibly "Kiel" is a LS loan in German. > Regards > Holger ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 4 15:29:48 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 07:29:48 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language minorities" 2004.03.04 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. Subject: Language minorities A couple of months ago, I remember, there was some reporting in this list about Flemish as language used in the UK. Earlier this week I found an article about the subject. Sorry in case it is the same source as people referred to some time ago. I must confess I'm rather sceptical about this kind of things. It is very well possible a scientist in the year 2200 will, after reading a travel journal of a Limburgian, who accidentally found a Limburgish speaking emigrated family while traveling in Patagonia, state that Limburgish was one of the Patagonian languages. The article I found is reproduced below (Annex 1) as well as the complete contents of the book it has been scanned from (Annex 2): Languages in Britain & Ireland, Edited by Glanville Price, 2000, Blackwell, ISBN 0-631-21581-6 (pbk), xi + 240 pp. (SEK 354 on sales, originally SEK 418, at Akademibokhandeln in the Nordstan mall in Göteborg) Flemish is dealt with at the same level as Scots. All Indian languages, so very much present in the UK, are just dealt with in chapter 19 "Community languages". Regards, Roger --- ANNEX 1 --- [p. 184] [Chapter] 15 Flemish in Wales Lauran Toorians ' [...] and I have also spoken with some who still spoke Flemish well, as they have learned it from their parents and from father to son.' Lucas de Heere (1534-84), a lesser known painter from Ghent, wrote these words, in Flemish and partly in the margin, in his manuscript 'A short description of England, Scotland and Ireland, gathered from the best authors by L.D.H.' ( Chotzen and Draak 1937, 48; Chotzen 1937, 102). As a Protestant, de Heere was formally banned from Flanders in 1568, by which time he was already in England where he remained in exile until early 1577. De Heere probably wrote his 'Short description' in the early 1570s and added the words quoted above to his brief account of how Flemings came to eastern England in 1106 and were transferred from there to West Wallia by the English king. As a source of this historical information he refers to Humphry Lhuyd. Apparently de Heere travelled a great deal and visited Pembrokeshire in person. His remark that some people there still spoke Flemish in his own time should be taken seriously. After all, Flemish was de Heere's own mother tongue. How did people from Flanders come to south-western Wales and how did they manage to keep their own cultural identity, including their language? Scarcity of historical sources makes these questions hard to answer in great detail, but an outline is possible. Tradition has it that a large group of people was forced out of Flanders by flooding, but this detail seems to rest mainly on folk-tradition. Though inundations were frequent in the Low Countries, in the period in question no such flooding was disastrous enough to force a substantial part of the population to emigrate. In fact, large numbers of Flemings had already come to England in the army of William the Conqueror. Later they were welcomed as merchants, as citizens for new boroughs or as colonists in new settlements. It seems true that Henry II found the influence which Flemings gained in his kingdom threatening and banished them to south-western Wales. The details, however, are not very clear. In reality these people seem to have left the Low Countries for various reasons. For the nobility this was a means of acquiring land and opportunities for their younger sons. Other adventurers, and especially farmers, escaped the over-populated and highly urbanized county of Flanders and found a new frontier in the Anglo-Norman kingdom in Britain. Merchants were welcomed with their expertise, which was unrivalled in north-western Europe. They could secure trade of, especially, wool and fleeces for the Flemish market. This way Flemings ended up not only in England and in Wales but also in Scotland and even in Ireland (Toorians 1996, 1998). -- Flemish in Wales [p.] 185 What makes Pembrokeshire special among the areas with Flemish settlers is the fact that it was only here (and perhaps, but surely on a lesser scale, in upper Clydesdale south of Glasgow) that they retained their identity as a group for several generations and even managed to cling on to their own language. Closer in time to their arrival than Lucas de Heere we have the important comment by the Welsh historian and geographer Giraldus Cambrensis or Gerald of Wales (c. 1146-1223) that his brother, Philip de Barri, was once addressed in Flemish by a local knight in Haverfordwest, and apparently was able to understand the language. Strictly in relation to the language, this is all the evidence we have. Neither the English nor the Welsh dialects of the area have preserved elements which could with any certainty be labelled Flemish. Only place-names reveal the presence of the sturdy settlers who once conquered and kept this area from the Welsh. In the course of time their language became English and the area became known as 'Little England beyond Wales'. Places with names like Flemingston or Flimston clearly recall the Flemings. Wiston is Wizo's town and can boast one of the best-preserved motte-and-balley castles in Britain. Because of its bloody history this is also the best-documented place in the written history of the Flemish settlement in Pembrokeshire (Chotzen 1933; Toorians 1990, 1998). Especially interesting is Walwyn's Castle, where early spellings of the place-name, like Walewynecastle from 1307, suggest a Dutch/Flemish pronunciation of the name. As I have argued earlier (Toorians 1995, 99-103) this may be the place where the Welsh personal name Gwalchmai was equated with the Continental name Wal(e)wain, thus laying the foundation for the Gawain of Arthurian romance. Since also a mysteriously lost book by the author of the Middle Dutch Reynard may have had a Welsh connection (all we know is the title Madoc, which is a Welsh personal name), the most lasting influence of the Flemish presence in Wales may well be of a literary kind. That, on the other hand, fighting remained an important occupation for the Flemings in Pembrokeshire explains how Irish annals can describe Strongbow's invasion army in 1169 as 'a fleet of Flemings'. Probably all the Flemings we find in twelfthand thirteenth-century Ireland will have come from (or through) south-western Wales. Wool from the area remained important for the Flemish cloth industry well into the fourteenth century and when in 1353 Carmarthen was made the sole staple town for the wool trade in Wales, Haverfordwest was recognized as an 'English town' and as such was exempt from this new regulation. Thus the Flemings created their own 'Little England beyond Wales'. References Chotzen, Th. 1933 1934. Willem van Brabant en Owain ap Cadwgan. Annales de la Société d'Émulation de Bruges, 76:65-82. - 1937. Some sidelights on Cambro-Dutch relations. Transactions of the Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion, 101-44. -and Draak, A. M. E. (eds) 1937. Beschrijving der Britsche Eilanden door Lucas de Heere. Een geïllustreerd geschrift uit zijn Engelsche ballingschap. Antwerp. Toorians, L. 1990. Wizo Flandrensis and the Flemish settlement in Pembrokeshire. Cambridge Medieval Celtic Studies, 20:99-118. -- [p. ] 186 Lauran Toorians -1995. Nogmaals 'Walewein van Melle' en de V1aarns-Keltische contacten. Queeste, 2:97-112. -1996. Flemish settlements in twelfth-century Scotland (with an Appendix: Handlist of Flemings in Scotland in the twelfth and thirteenth century). Revue belge de philologie et d'histoire, 74:659-93. - 1998. V1aarnse nederzettingen in Keltische gebieden. In Toorians, Lauran (ed.), Kelten en de Nederlanden van prehistorie tot heden, Louvain, 69-88. --- ANNEX 2 --- [p. v] Contents The Contributors vii List of Maps and Figures viii Preface ix Editor's Acknowledgements x Note on References xi Introduction 1 1 Prehistoric Britain 3 Glanville Price 2 Irish in Ireland 6 Cathair Ó Dochartaigh 3 Irish in Early Britain 37 Glanville Price 4 Scottish Gaelic 44 Kenneth MacKinnon 5 Manx 58 Robert L. Thomson 6 British 70 Glanville Price 7 Welsh 78 Janet Davies 8 Cornish 109 Philip Payton 9 Cumbric 120 Glanville Price 10 Pictish 127 Glanville Price 11 Latin 132 Glanville Price 12 English 141 Glanville Price -- [P. ] vi Contents 13 Scots 159 Jeremy J. Smith 14 Norse and Norn 171 Michael P Barnes 15 Flemish in Wales 184 Lauran Toorians 16 French in the Channel Islands 187 Glanville Price 17 Anglo-Norman 197 D. A. Trotter 18 Romani 207 Glanville Price 19 Community Languages 213 Viv Edwards Name Index 229 Subject Index 237 ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 4 17:05:30 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:05:30 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.04 (03) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Frédéric Baert Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.03 (04) [E] >From: R. F. Hahn >Subject: Morphology > >Oops! Corrections: > >> Standard Afrikaans (which has -0 suffixes throughout): >> Root: /sii-/ >> Infinitive: sien >> 1st sg.: ek sien >> 1st pl.: wy sien >> Imperative: sien! > >This should have been: > >Root: (/sii-n-/ >) /siin-/ sien 'to see', sien! 'see!' > >As in the other cases: > >Root: (/gaa-n-/ >) /gaan-/ gaan 'to go', 'go!' >Root: (/staa-n-/ >) /staan-/ staan 'to stand', 'stand!' >Root: (/duu-n-/ >) /duun-/ doen 'to do', 'do!' > >Cf. Standard Dutch: > >Root: /zii- at n/ sien 'to see', /zii-0/ zie! 'see!' >Root: /gaa- at n/ gaan 'to go', /gaa-0/ ga! 'go!' >Root: /staa- at n/ staan 'to stand', /staa-0/ sta! 'stand!' >Root: /duu- at n-/ doen 'to do', /duu-0/ doe! 'do!' > >What about Zeelandic (Zeeuws) and Western Flemish? > >Since Afrikaans has this trait, I wonder if the "seeds" for this were >inherited from Zeelandic (Zeeuws). I further wonder if this can be >corroborated by means of data from Dutch-, or rather Zeelandic-based creoles >like Skepi/Essequibo/Rupununi (Guayana), Berbice (Guayana), Petjoh/Pecok >(Java, Indonesia) and Virgin Islands Creole ("Negerhollands," "Negerzeeuws," >U.S. Virgin Islands, formerly Danish West Indies). > >Regards, >Reinhard/Ron > Hi Ron and everybody I can answer you for french western flemish and i apologize if you find me too long ! For the case of the verbs you mentionned, we have in french flemish: root : /gae-/ ; /stae-/ ; /duu-/ ; /zie-/ infinitive : gaen ; staen ; duun ; zien 1st sing. : 'k gaen ; 'k staen ; 'k duun ; 'k zien 2nd sing. : gy gae(t) ; gy stae(t) ; gy duu(t) ; gy zie(t) 1st pl. : me gaen ; me staen ; me duun ; me zien 2nd pl. : gydder gae(t) ; gydder stae(t) ; gydder duu(t) ; gydder zie(t) several notes : 1- To the present tense, the verb at the first person (singular or plural) has a plural form ending "-n" and the verb at the second person (singular or plural) has a singular form ending "-t". 2- I put the "-t" of the 2nd person into brackets because it is only pronounced when preceeding a vowel. 3- "me" replaced the oldest "wy" which is not known any more. 4- perhaps the most important here ; a vowel followed by a "n" is often nasalized in french flemish. So in gaen, staen, duun and zien, the "n" is pronounced only before a vowel but under its influence the vowel before it becomes a nasal one. This conducts me to talk about at least three other verbs: first : schlaen (dutch slaan i think, english slay, german schlagen i think). German forms "stehen" and "gehen" seem to prove that we observe in staen and gaen the disappearance of a "h" before the "-en" of the infinitive form. In contrast, German form "schlagen" seem to prove that we observe here the disappearance of a "g". This leads me to a very interesting verb in french flemish (i think): zeggen (dutch zeggen, english say, german sagen). In french flemish at least, its pronunciation is quite complex (especially for a french speaking, i had observed it !): because of the final "-n", the "-gen" group becomes sort of nasal group. This nasal group is able to induce the first "e" of zeggen to become a nasal "e". As a result in "zeggen", the "ggen" is reduced to kind of "nasal aspiration" and tends to disappear. Its influence in this case is to make the first "e" a long nasal vowel. This explains that with "zeggen" you can find at least in french french flemish dictionaries the same verb under the form : "zen". This phenomenon seems to have been in process in french flemish in all the verbs ending with "-gen". As an example the third verb i thought about was "klagen" whose pronounciation is controlled by the same rules as "zeggen". It must be noted that this phenomenon is not only relevant for verbs but also for substantives whose endings are "-gen" like the word "dag ; pl. dagen". To finish about "zeggen" here is its conjugation : Root : /zeg-/ infinitive : zeggen(sometimes zen) 1st sing : 'k zeggen (or sometimes 'k zen) 2nd sing : gy zegt 1st pl. : me zeggen (me zen) To end, i will be curious to know your opinion : i observe that the flemish and dutch "g" often transforms into a "y" in english : "dag" becomes "day" "zeggen" becomes "say" But if "staan" comes from an old "stahn", so i don't think it's related to english "stay". What do you think and know about this? I have another question. You mentionned for the verb "doen" in dutch a root "/duu-/". But in Dutch the verb has only forms "doen" or "doet" i think. In french flemish the forms are (for my language) "duun" and "duut". So i was interested and i asked myself why you used such "/duu-/" root for the dutch. I hope i have been clear ( I remain of course at disposal if not)and that all this was of interest for you. Cheers Frederic Baert ---------- From: Liza du Plooy Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.03 (02) [E] Ron, jy het geskryf: "Standard Afrikaans (which has -0 suffixes throughout): Root: /gaan-/ /staan-/ /duun-/ Infinitive: gaan staan doen 1st sg.: ek gaan ek staan ek doen 1st pl.: wy gaan wy staan wy doen" Ek kan ongelukkig nie jou vraag antwoord nie, maar wou jou net laar weet dat ons nie "wy" gebruik vir 1st pl in Afrikaans nie. Die woord is "ons", dus: ons gaan, ons staan, ons doen. Groete Liza du Plooy ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Morphology Hi, Lowlanders! Dankie, Liza. Ja, ja, dit was natuurlik my fout -- 'n "automatic pilot"-ding. "What a drongo!" sou ek in australies Engels oor myself sê. Verskoon my asseblief! My "breinskakelaar" tussen Nedersaksies, Nederlands en Afrikaans is dikwels defekt ... ;-) Ek stel vertrou in en waardeer die korreksies van my Afrikaanse vriende op die lys. Thanks for the very interesting data (above), Frédéric. You asked: > I have another question. You mentionned for the verb "doen" in dutch a > root "/duu-/". But in Dutch the verb has only forms "doen" or "doet" i > think. In french flemish the forms are (for my language) "duun" and "duut". > So i was interested and i asked myself why you used such "/duu-/" root for > the dutch. /duu-/ is the underlying (linguistically written) representation of _doe-_. The spelling for /uu/ [u:] and /u/ [u] is unique to the Low Franconian group of language varieties, and using for /üü/ is also specific to the Low Franconian group, borrowed from French. In linguistic analyses such language-specific orthographic devices are disregarded and the true values are written according to international conventions; thus: Spelled | Phonemic | Phonetic oe | /uu/ /u/ | [u:] [u] uu | /üü/ | [y:] Accordingly, what is spelled as _doen_ in Dutch is phonemically /duu-(@)n/ a nd phonetically [du:n]. Did I make myself clear? In other words, try to forget about Dutch spelling when we deal with phonology. > But if "staan" comes from an old "stahn", so i don't think it's related to > english "stay". What do you think and know about this? Hmmm ... Yes and no ... "To stay" is suspected of being a loan, derived from Old French _estayer_ (cf. Modern French _étayer_). All the "weirder" that Afrikaans and Plautdietsch (Mennonite Lowlands Saxon) have incorporated the /-n-/ into the root (_ek staan_, _ekj stohne_). Here are some extras: MODERN ENGLISH: to do | go | see | stand I do | go | see | stand (thou do(e)st | goest | seest | standest)* he does | goes | sees | stands we do | go | see | stand *(obsolete and replaced with plural "you" in most dialects) OLD ENGLISH: dōn | gān | sēon~sīon | standan ic dō(e) | gā(e) | sē(i)a | stande þū dō(e)st | gā(e)st | sē(i)ast | standest he dō(e)þ | gā(e)þ | sē(i)aþ | standeþ wē dōaþ | gāþ | sē(i)aþ | standaþ W. FRISIAN: dwaan* | gean | sjen | stean ik doch | gean (!) | ik sjoch | stiest do dochst | giest | sjochst | stiest hy docht | giet | sjocht | stiet wy dogge | geane (!) | sjogge | steane (!) *("broken" form, probably from */duaa-n/ < Old Frisian _dua(a)-n_) LOWLANDS SAXON (Low German, Northern, ANS): dou(e)n | gaan | sey(e)n | staan ik dou | ga | sey | sta du days(t) | gays(t) | süys(t) | stays(t)* hey dayt | gayt | süyt | stayt** wy dout~dou(e)n | gaat~gaan | seyt~sey(e)n | staat~staan *(< older /-est/, e.g. /gaa-est/ > gayst) ** (< older /-et/, e.g. /gaa-et/ > gayt) (s- = [z], st- = [st]) LOWLANDS SAXON (Low German, Mennonite, orthographic): doone | go(h)ne | seene~sehne | sto(h)ne ekj/etj do | go(h) | see~se(h) | sto(h) du/dü deist | gei(h)st | sitst | stei(h)st hee deit | gei(h)t | sitt | stei(h)t wie doone | go(h)ne | seene~sehne | sto(h)ne LOWLANDS SAXON (Low German, Mennonite, phonemic (ANS): doune | gane | seyne | stane ek dou | ga | sey | sta du/dü dayst | gayst | sitst | stayst* hey dayt | gayt | sitt | stayt** wy doune | gane | seyne | stane *(< older /-est/, e.g. /gaa-est/ > gayst) ** (< older /-et/, e.g. /gaa-et/ > gayt) (s- = [z], st- = [St]) DUTCH (orthographic): doen | gaan | zien | staan ik doe | ga | zie | sta (jij doet | gaat | ziet | staat)* hij doet | gaat | ziet | staat wij doen | gaan | zien | staan DUTCH (phonemic, ANS): duun | gaan | syn | staan ik du | ga | sy | sta (jey duut | gaat | syt | staat)* hey duut | gaat | syt | staat wey duun | gaan | syn | staan *(former plural replacing widely obsolete _doe /duu/ ...st_) AFRIKAANS (orthographic): doen | gaan | sien | staan ek doen | gaan | sien | staan (!) (jy doen | gaan | sien | staan (!))* hy doen | gaan | sien | staan (!) ons doen | gaan | sien | staan (!) AFRIKAANS (phonemic, ANS): duun | gaan | syn | staan ek duun | gaan | syn | staan (!) (jey duun | gaan | syn | staan (!))* hey duun | gaan | syn | staan (!) ons duun | gaan | syn | staan (!) *(former plural replacing obsolete _doe /duu/ ...(e)st_) MISSINGSCH (German on L. Saxon substrate, orthographic): tun | gehn | sehn | stehn* ich tu | geh | seh | steh* du tus(t) | gehs(t) | siehs(t) | stehs(t)* eä tut | geht | sieht | steht* wiä tun | gehn | sehn | stehn* MISSINGSCH (phonemic, ANS): tuun | geen | seen | steen* ich tu | ge | se | ste* du tuus(t) | gees(t) | sys(t) | stees(t)* er tuut | geet | syt | steet* wir tuun | geen | seen | steen* *(s- = [z], st- = [st]) STANDARD GERMAN (orthographic): tun | gehen | sehen | stehen* ich tue | gehe | sehe | stehe* du tust | gehst | siehst | stehst* er tut | geht | sieht | steht* wir tun | gehen | sehen | stehen* STANDARD GERMAN (phonemic, ANS): tuun | ge(h)en | se(h)en | ste(h)en* ich tue | ge(h)e | se(h)e | ste(h)e* du tuust | geest | syst | steest* er tuut | geet | syt | steet* wir tuun | ge(h)en | se(h)en | ste(h)en* *(s- = [z], st- = [St]) Note W. Frisian forms with "encroached" /-n/ marked by (!), also the Flemish forms for the 1st p. sg., and check them against the Mennonite LS forms. Considering that a high percentage of Mennonite ancestors went to Western Prussia from W. Friesland and from various Low Franconian areas, I suspect that they took /-n-/ with them eastward. I would suggest comparing their dialects with those (now moribund and extinct) non-Mennonite dialects of Western and Eastern Prussia. However, I am not sure if this would tell us anything, since also many non-Mennonites from the farwestern Lowlands emigrated to those regions, and Frisian and Low Franconian influences are likely to be fairly wide-spread. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 4 17:48:04 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:48:04 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.04 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: Vissevasse What does vysevaze mean here? Any relation with Danish "vissevasse"? (deu. Wisch(i)-Wasch(i)) ~ vrøvl, vås ~ rubbish! I read it in Reynke de Vos. Grymbart sprack vort: »nu klaget de haze Eyn mereken vnde eyne vysevaze. In Danish we say "vissevasse' for "rubbish", like "vissevasse, den hopper jeg skam ikke på! Sikke noget vås" Is 'eyn vysevaze' a person (here: animal) saying rubbish? or can it mean something else. Thanks in advance, Kenneth ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Help needed Hey, Kenneth! > Grymbart sprack vort: »nu klaget de haze > Eyn mereken vnde eyne vysevaze. This is how I understand it (in English of about the same period): Grimbeard spake forth "now lamenteth the Hare A Fayned Fable and a Twittle-Twattle-Thynge. And in Modern English: Grimbeard continued, "Now the hare complained, 'A fairy-tale and a bunch of hooey!' So, I understand _vysevaze_ to be a countable noun in Middle Saxon, "a bunch of garbage," "a made-up, nonsensical story," etc. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 4 18:55:02 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:55:02 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.04 (05) [E/F] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Stella en Henno Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.04 (03) [A/E] [Ron sei:] ----- > W. FRISIAN: > dwaan* | gean | sjen | stean > ik doch | gean (!) | ik sjoch | stiest > do dochst | giest | sjochst | stiest > hy docht | giet | sjocht | stiet > wy dogge | geane (!) | sjogge | steane (!) > > *("broken" form, probably from */duaa-n/ < Old Frisian _dua(a)-n_) Net alheel korrekt: "ik stean", ynstee fan "ik stiest". Dialektysk komt hjir ek "ston" foar, dat wierskynlik weromgiet op Aldfrysk "stonda", en dit stie ek oan 'e basis fan de measte Noard- en Eastfryske foarmen. It Aldfrysk hie twa stammen: sta:n en stonda dêr't de earste meast Westerlauwersk is. Allyksa mei "ga:n" en "gunga" yn it Aldfrysk. Dus "ik gean" komt fan 'e earste ôf, wylst dialektysk "ik gon" fan 'e twadde ôfkomt. Dêrby komt ek yn âldere teksten "ik sjen" en "ik dwaan" foar. It liket derop (mar ik kin mis wêze) dat dy foarmen frij âld binne en miskjin dat de foarmen "ik sjoch" en "ik doch" út de twadde en tredde persoan iental komme, troch analogy. At myn ûnthâld my net mist, kaam ek wol "wy dwane" esfh foar. Sokke foarmen binne yn it Stedsk (wij doene, wij gane, wy siene esfh) ek foar. Dialekten dy't "ik gon" sizze, hewwe ek "wy gonne" esfh. Mar "ik dwaan" is minder "gewoan" as "ik doch", en miskjin al útstoarn ? Mar faaks witte oaren op 'e list der mear fan; ik wenje net yn Fryslân, dat, sa faak hear ik gjin libben Frysk mear (útsein by femylje). Henno Brandsma ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Morphology Ik tank, beste Henno. > Net alheel korrekt: "ik stean", ynstee fan "ik stiest". Ja, dit was in "kopiearje-en-lymje"-fersin ... alweer it "automatic pilot"-syndrom. ;-) > Dus "ik gean" komt fan 'e earste ôf, wylst dialektysk "ik gon" fan 'e twadde > ôfkomt. > Dêrby komt ek yn âldere teksten "ik sjen" en "ik dwaan" foar. > Dêrby komt ek yn âldere teksten "ik sjen" en "ik dwaan" foar. > At myn ûnthâld my net mist, kaam ek wol "wy dwane" esfh foar. Sokke foarmen > binne yn it Stedsk (wij doene, wij gane, wy siene esfh) ek foar. > Dialekten dy't "ik gon" sizze, hewwe ek "wy gonne" esfh. Aha!!! :) Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 4 19:57:57 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 11:57:57 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.04 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAR.2004 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Floor en Lyanne van Lamoen Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.04 (03) [A/E] Dear Reinhard, > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Morphology > W. FRISIAN: > dwaan* | gean | sjen | stean > ik doch | gean (!) | ik sjoch | stiest > do dochst | giest | sjochst | stiest > hy docht | giet | sjocht | stiet > wy dogge | geane (!) | sjogge | steane (!) > > *("broken" form, probably from */duaa-n/ < Old Frisian _dua(a)-n_) For "stean" the 1st sg. should be "ik stean". For the record: there are not many verbs in Frysk of which the infinitive ends with an n. The only ones I quickly foung apart from the above (and similar to them, such as "bestean") are "jaan" - to give: ik jou, do joust, hy/er jout, wy jouwe) "slaan" - to hit: ik slaan(!)/slach, do slachst, hy/er slacht, wy slaan/slane(!)/slagge) Kind regards, Floor van Lamoen. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 4 20:42:27 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 12:42:27 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (07) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAR.2004 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Hugo Zweep Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.04 (04) [E] How about "wishy washy" meaning feeble or poor in constitution and described in the OED? Hugo Zweep ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Moyen, Hugo! > How about "wishy washy" meaning feeble or poor in constitution and > described in the OED? Yeah, but that's are or obsolete usage of the word. I believe the original meaning was something like "insipid," "bland" "diluted" or "sloppy." In North Saxon, _labberig_, _plörig_ and _plöörksig_ describe pretty much that idea, especially with regard to drink. (Don't you have similar words in your dialect?) So it's "weak" in *that* sense. The way I hear "wishy-washy" used nowadays sounds a bit more like "weak" in the sense of opinion or attitude, thus something like "ambiguous," "irresolute" or "vacillating," or, as some would put it, "spineless." In a word, I think it doesn't fit the meaning of _vysevaze_ in the Middle Saxon verse Kenneth presented: Grymbart sprack vort: »nu klaget de haze Eyn mereken vnde eyne vysevaze. I suggested: Middle English: Grimbeard spake forth "now lamenteth the Hare A Fayned Fable and a Twittle-Twattle-Thynge. Modern English: Grimbeard continued, "Now the hare complained, 'A fairy-tale and a bunch of hooey!' Modern Lowlands Saxon (Low German, North Saxon): Grimbaard seed' wyder: »Nu klaagt dey haas': Eyn meerken un eyn dwatschen snak. German-based spelling: Grimmbort sä wieder: »Nu klaagt de Haas: Eyn Märken un eyn dwatschen Snack. _Snak_ () is 'talk', 'chat' (both noun and verb) in the more easterly North Saxon dialects (probably corresponding to _proat_, _praot_, etc. farther west), and from there made its way into Scandinavian. (I believe that's the direction it took. Or did it come *from* Scandinavian?) LS _snak_ can also denote 'gossip' (e.g., _Dat is man bloots so 'n snak mang de lüyd'_ 'It's just some gossip making its rounds'). Incidentally, this (either from LS or "Dutch") appears to be the origin of English "snack," originally '(to) bite', '(to) gasp' > '(to) chatter'. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (01) [E] > From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.03 (05) [E] > > My Modern Danish dictionary says that Low Saxon 'kiel' means the same as > wyk (Danish 'vig', Dutch 'wijk'), and the is also the meaning used in > the city name Kiel - originally 'tome Kiel' which in Danish would be 'i > kilen' or 'i vigen' judging from my dictionary I remember the word Kiel was discussed in this list several years ago when an American subscriber asked for advice, since the people from the area he lived (somewhere in the state of New-York, I though it was) wanted to change a place name, because of the ugly word "kill" it contained. 1. South of Antwerp, between Antwerp and Hoboken, there was (till the French revolution) the seigniory of Kiel (1246 "vetera bona de Kyle" etc.). Momentarely "Kiel" is a suburb of Antwerp, South of the Ring, sqeezed between the ring Hoboken and Beerschot. Lords of the Kiel, before the revolution: 1246-1381: Family 'Nose" 1410-1540: The clergy order of the "Karthuizers" 1540-1796: A drossaard assigned by the town of Antwerp. The "drossaard van het Kiel". At least one history of Kiel has been written: Floris Prins, Geschiedenis van het Kiel Prims gives "river bend" as etymology for "the Kiel". 2. The father of the famous author of polyglottal dictionaries Corneel Kiliaan, was born in Kiel, hence the name Kiliaan, also written Kiel and Kilianus. Corneel was Born in Duffel (known from the Duffel-coat; Duffel is about 10 miles to the South East of the Kiel) in the winter of 1528-1529 and died in Antwerp on April 15 1607.He studied Latin, Greec and Hebrew at the Collegium Trilingue of Leuven University. For his biography, he got 10 cols. in the "Nationaal Biografisch Woordenboek", vol VI, 1974, Brussel, Paleis der Academiën, col 507-516. 3. Kyll is also the name of a river in the Eifel-Mosel area: - starts with the river Our (South-East of Sankt Vith in Belgium) - continues with the Kronenburger See - continues through the Eifler Queldreieck (town: Stadtkyll) - continues through the Gerolsteiner Land (cf. place Rockerkyll) - through the Kyllburger Waldeifel (places: Kyllburgweiler, Kyllburg) - through the Bitburg - Speicher area - joins the Mosel just North of Trier 4. The WNT (in Dutch) has 9 lemmas for "Kiel", I pasted them all in attachment. I also added the lemma for "Kielspit", since I think it may be relevant Regards, Roger KIEL (I), znw. m. Mnl. kidel (naast kedel), verg. mhd. kitel, kittel, kietel (nhd. kittel). Opmerkelijke vorm naast gelijkbet. (kedel) keel (mnl. kedel): zie KEEL (I). Van onbekenden oorsprong. 1) Los overkleed, van linnen of katoen, voor mannen en jongens. a) Als dracht van arbeiders en werklieden, sjouwers, voerlieden, veekoopers enz. || Hebt gy gheenen Fluwelen of bonten Rock, laet het syn een grove kiel, SPRANKHUISEN 1, 61 b. Alle tamboers en pypers montering sullen ... uyt de guarnisoens kamer verstrekt werden. ... Gebruykende voor 't overige hare linnen kielen, N.-I. Plakaatb. 6, 640 (aº. 1754). Zulk een Bovenjak (in de 17de eeuw) was niets anders, dan eene soort van een ruim, grof, zwart of bruin Linnen Kieltje; 't welk de Arbeiders over hunne Hemdrokken, en andere kleederen droegen: even als de Boerenlieden, en meestal de Schippersgasten en Smids, nog zulke Jakken of halve Kielen draagen, BERKHEY, N. H. 3, 570. Al de Franschen, die men ... in zag komen waren naakt, geen broek aan hun gat, barrevoets, sommigen een brok kiel of een brok deken om hun bast, Leiden i. d. Fr. Tijd 7. Hij had de mouwen van zijnen kiel opgestroopt en werkte en zwoegde met zichtbare haast en lust, CONSC. 4, 177 b. Een kiel, een paar beslagen holsblokken; en hij was voor twee jaren van top tot teen in de kleeren (t. w. de slaaf bij de Romeinen), BEETS, Sparsa 85. Een kerel (een voerman) ... met een schoone blauwe kiel aan, BEETS, C. O. 336. Een besteller in een witten kiel, TEN BRINK, Rom. 4, 4. Met den ... natten kiel op 't lijf geplakt, den rug gekromd onder het neerstortend water, ... met ééne hand de pet in den wind op het hoofd houdend, LOVELING, D. E. 105. In een blauw geruiten kiel Draaide hij (Michiel de Ruiter) aan 't groote wiel Den ganschen dag, DE ROP, in Ned. Volksliederenb. 40. Vleeschhouwerijen ..., de baas en zijn hakkende knechten in ... witte kielen en slooven met leergordels en messen in scheeden, BRUSSE, Boefje 74. Klompé (reed) ... weg ... in zijn blauwen grauwgesleten kiel zoo hij van 't werk kwam, DE MAN, Rijsh. 41. Vader Gijsbert kwam ook, in een nieuwen kiel, 259. — Halve kiel. Zie de aanhaling uit BERKHEY. b) Als jongensdracht. || Zijn strepen broeksken en zijn kieltje werden hem aangedaan, CONSC. 1, 51 b. De Hollandsche jongen draagt zijn das liefst als een touwtje ...; een blauw of schotschbont kieltje over zijn buis, BEETS, C. O. 2. Mijne krachten (van een schooljongen) hebben zich ontwikkeld, de broeken worden te kort, de mouwen te eng, de kielen zijn reeds tweemaal uitgelaten, BERGMANN, Staas 19. Zijn rood dasje ..., zijn uitstaand kieltje (van een knaapje op zijn Zondagsch), Jº. DE VRIES, Zonnebl. 167. Al die jongens waren ... in heeren-kleêren, lange broeken, jasjes, overhempjes. ... Willem liep er alleen tusschen met zijn kiel en zijn korte-broek, V. DEYSSEL, Verz. Opst. 4, 7. 't Was ... in zijn versch gewasschen blauwen kiel, voor z'n jaren wel een kloeke, vierkante jongen, BRUSSE, Boefje 10. Onder de mouw was de jongen z'n kiel gescheurd, HARTOG, Sjofelen 272. De kiel, die de jongen, los, zonder band om het lijf hing als een kort jakje, 276. c) Als boerendracht in Vlaamsch-België: de bekende blauwe, Brabantsche kiel. || De strik van eenen veelkleurigen halsdoek daalde zwierig tot op de borst van zijnen fijnen blauwen kiel, CONSC. 1, 63 b. (Jonge boeren) die, gedost in Brabantsche kielen ..., overendweder Jagen en jakken, op hun forsche en zwaar-trapplende paerden, V. BEERS 2, 83. Hij zette de muts weer op de borstelige haren, knoopte de linten van zijn blauwen kiel toe, STIJNS, In de Ton 61. 's Zondags in de kerk droeg hij den blauwen kiel, van de keurigste stof en het schoonste fatsoen, sierlijk gestreken, aan den halsband met de kostelijkste zijde gestikt, en met zwierige linten sluitend, SEGERS, Kemp. Wer. 66. Smouts had zijnen langen blauwen kiel over zijnen geribden veloeren frak geslagen, 166. De rijkere landbouwers ... met den glimmenden, blauwen kiel, versch gestreken, onder de kin losgestrikt, om het hagelwit hemd te laten zien, WATTEZ, Koningsk. 17. — Deze Brabantsche blauwe kiel was, tijdens den opstand der Belgen in 1830—1831, de uniformdracht der Belgische vrijkorpsen. Verg. kiel(e)man (straks hieronder, bij de samenst.) en blauwkiel (zie ald.). || Weg met dat kleed, ... Des oproers kiel en Brabants dracht, V. LENNEP, Poët. 8, 300 (zie ook 9, 51; 9, 67). Zooveel ... Als Aº. 30 de Belgen in kielen, Schoolm. 213. De blauwe kiel van '30 en '31 (praalde) ... met de grijze politiemuts, den 1 Juni 1885, op de lijkkist van Charles Rogier, BEETS, Na vijftig J. 17. Een haren muts ... waaruit een roodlaken, puntvormig zakje nederhangt; een blauwlinnen kiel. langs kraag en halsboord afgezet met roode lintjes; een overgroot geweer enz., POL DE MONT, Hendr. Conscience 1 (uitrusting van een Belgisch vrijwilliger in 1830). d) Als reiskleed voor heeren, in 't eerste gedeelte van de 19de eeuw. || De blauwe kiel, die mij (een voetreiziger) voor regen schut, V. LENNEP, Poët. 5, 144. Hoe vuil onze Brabantsche kielen, na eene reize van ettelijke weken, ook mochten geworden zijn ..., het was ons niet gelukt voor reizende kooplui of gelukzoekers door te gaan, BEETS, C. O. 335. 2) Als dracht van vrouwen. || Ik (een herderin) draag een linne kieltje: ... daar mee ben ik wel vernoegt, J. V. GYZEN, Verm. Haarlemmer Hout 42. Afl. Gekield (met samenst. als blauw-, witgekield): zie GEKIELD (I). Samenst. en koppel. (als eerste lid). Kielgoed (TEIRLINCK, Z. Oostvl. Idiot. 2, 132 a) en kielengoed, goed, stof voor kielen; -jurk, kielvormige kinderof meisjesjurk; -maken, -makere, -makerije (TEIRLINCK, t. a. pl.); -male, zak van een kiel (TEIRLINCK, t. a. pl.); kielman, kieleman: 1º. met een kiel gekleed man, b. v. een voerman („De huifkarren hadden plaats gemaakt voor rijtuigen op veeren. De kieleman met zijn ... zweep, het paard met zijn rinkelend ... tuig ... was verdwenen”, VITRINGA (JAN HOLLAND), Doris en Doortje 297); 2º. soldaat van de Belgische vrijscharen (Belgisch vrijwilliger) in 1830; 3º. bijnaam voor de Belgische opstandelingen (V. DALE); kielstoffe, kielengoed (TEIRLINCK), -zak, kielmale (ald.). — Als tweede lid. Arbeiders-, boeren-, jongens- (Dl. VII, kol. 379), letterzetters- (V. LOOY, Jaap 247), matrozen-, schilders-, slagers-, ververs-, voermans-, werkmanskiel (QUERIDO, Jord. 310). — Flodder- („Een boer ... met een dikke knuppel, in een flodderkiel”, V. LOOY, Jaapje 163); mors- (Dl. IX, kol. 1152); over- („Met zijn langen, witten overkiel aan, en zijn versleten stroohoed op”, SEGERS, Kemp. Wer. 66); slob-, morskiel (Heiloo); werkkiel. — In possesieve samenstellingen. Blauwkiel (ald. en daarbij „de blauwkielen” , V. LENNEP 9, 60); witkiel, stationssjouwer, stationsbesteller. KIEL (II), znw. m., wig, wigvormig voorwerp, wigvormige zaak. Nnd. kîl (DOORNK.-KOOLM.); friesch kyl. Gelijkbet. met keg en keil (nhd. keil, mhd. kîl), maar verwantschap met deze woorden is onzeker. Verg. KIEL (III), greppel. 1) Wig om hout te splijten, te klieven, te klooven, of om een kloof mede open te houden; (ijzeren) beitel, kliefbeitel. Verg. kyle of beytel, Teuthon. 142 a (en: beytel, kijle, pegge. Cuneus, a. w. 25 b). || Kiel. Sax. Sicamb. Fris. j. beytel. Cuneus, KIL. (verg. ald. beytel, klief-beytel, Cuneus). Kiel, wig, kig, beitel (Noord-Limb.), SCHUERM., Bijv. — Eenen kiel in het hout slaan, WEIL. Timmerman sluig n kiel in 't holt, TER LAAN 407 a. — Hy sagh eenen boom daer kielen of weggen in waren, die hy voorder meende te klieven: doch alsoo de kielen daer uyt vielen, worde hy van den boom soo benepen, dat hy met beide handen daer in blyven moste, PERS, in VONDEL, Gulden W. 60 b (ed. 1622). 2) Geer (schuine, wigvormige strook) in een kleedingstuk (TER LAAN 407 a). Verg. de afl. kielen. Afl. Kielen, ww. — 1º. Onz. Geeren („Dit stok laand kielt”, TER LAAN 407 a). 2º. Van een kiel voorzien worden („'t Hòlt moet kield worn,” (t. a. pl.). — In de samenst. Inkielen (naar nhd. einkeilen), met de afl. inkieling (nhd. einkeilung). || Inplanting, inkieling ... (van) de tanden in het kakenbeen, CUPERUS, Turnvakt. 28. — Kielsch, schuin toeloopend (TER LAAN). Samenst. Kielbeen (verg. nhd. keilbein), het wiggebeen in den schedel; -bles, wigvormige bles voor den kop van een paard (MOLEMA, TER LAAN); kielsgewijs (gron. -gewies: „'t Hòlt moet kielsgewies aanzett wòrn” TER LAAN), kielhouweel („Kielhouweelen, Kielhauen, Spitzhauen”, NEMNICH, Holl. Waaren-Lexicon), -houwer (verg. nhd. keilhaue, keilhacke), kielhouweel (MANSVELT), -stuk (voor nhd. keilstück), opsluitingswig (KUYPER, Technol. 1, 110). Met deze beteekenis vermoedelijk ook in Kielhoutje. Aan een viool enz. Opstaand randje, ruggetje aan 't begin van de toets, waarover de snaren naar de spanschroeven loopen. KIEL (III), znw. m. Greppel; bepaaldelijk: ondiepe wigvormige greppel (verg. kielspit, de bet. 1); derhalve 't zelfde woord(?) als KIEL (II), wig (zie ald.). 1) Grip, greppel in 't algemeen. || De rietwortels worden in een' gegraven kiel of kip gelegd, ter diepte van eene palm en ter lengte van eene el of minder .... Indien de wortel eenigzins dor of schraal schijnt, zal men meer van eenen goeden uitslag verzekerd zijn, wanneer men twee of drie wortels in een' kiel of kip legt. Deze kielen of kippen (keepen) worden eene el van elkander gegraven, VERSCHOOR V. SLEEUWIJK, Over het Riet, in De Vriend v. d. Landm. 14 (1850), 559. 2) Het diepere deel van een greppel waarheen het water moet afloopen (BOEKENOOGEN 424). — Kiel of kieltje steken; kiel spitten, greppels steken, uitgreppelen. || We moeten weer ers kieltje steken, BOEKENOOGEN. — Betaeldt aen Taems Willemsen 10 st. voor kiel spieten, Ald. (Wormer, aº. 1663). 3) In technischen zin. Een langs een richtsnoer ingespitte, ingestoken, één steek breede en diepe, wigvormige gleuf of vore, welke bij het traceeren van aardwerken tot afbakening, tijdelijke uitbakening dient. Alleen in verbinding (koppeling) met spitten en steken: zie KIELSPITTEN (met KIELSPIT), KIELSTEKEN (met KIELSTEEK) en verg. KIELSPONDE. Afl. Kielen, kiel spitten, greppel steken, uitgreppelen („Aen Taemsz Willemsz voor 11/2 dachwerck op 't lant te kiellen betaelt enz.”, bij BOEKENOOGEN 425 (Wormer, aº. 1662). Koppel. en samenst. Zie Kielspit, -spitten, -sponde, -sponning, -steek, -steken, -tuin, -zode. KIEL (IV), znw., thans vr.; in de oudste voorbeelden (EVERAERT) manl.; enkele malen (o. a. bij H. DE GROOT) onz. gebezigd. Niet — althans etymologisch niet — hetzelfde woord als mnl. kiel (os. kiol, ags. céol, ohd. chiol, onr. kjóll), manl.: vaartuig, groot schip, dat na de 15de eeuw niet meer voorkomt (de vermelding van KILIAAN: kiele. vet. Sax. j. galeye, zal men als bewijs mogen verwaarloozen), maar een in 't Nederlandsch gelijkluidende vorm, met de beteekenis: scheeps bodembalk, scheepskiel, welke in de 16de eeuw voor 't eerst is neergeschreven en die etymologisch beantwoordt aan mnd. kil, kiel, kel (duitsch keel, kehl — enkele malen keil — in de 16de en 17de eeuw), nnd. kîl, kêl (nhd. kiel, kehl), eng. keel (verg. ook ags. cele, scheepssneb?), onr. kjolr (zw. köl, deensch kjöl). Voor het Duitsch schijnt men een verwarring en verwisseling van de twee woorden kiel, schip, en: scheepskiel, beide manlijk, te moeten of te mogen aannemen (KLUGE; PAUL; WEIGAND-HIRT; FALK-TORP); aan invloed van deze verwisseling schrijft men ook de opkomst van de jongere beteekenis van kiel in 't Nederlandsch toe (verg. FRANCK-V. WIJK 305 b). I) Eigenlijk. Een deel van het schip. A) Afzonderlijk of op zich zelf beschouwd, t. w. als een (en wel het voornaamste, fundamenteele) van de constructieve deelen van het schip. 1) Eigenlijk, bij houten schepen. Het onderste langsscheepsche hout in een schip, de grondslag van het scheepsgeraamte; buiten 't schip gedeeltelijk — overlangs, middenonder het vlak — als een rib of rug uitstekende. || De Kiel, het Fondament en Beginsel van 't Schip, is een lang Hout, dat somtijds wel uit 2, 3, a 4 Stucken in de Langte, na Reden van Schips grootheid door lange Lassen is t'samen gezet: en met een Deel binnen, en twee Deelen buitenwaarts, in 't ondertste van 't Schip geplaatst werd: deelende het zelve aldaar, van vooren tot agteren, in twee gelyke Deelen, V. YK, Scheepsb. 54. — Kiel des schips. La carine ou fond de la navire, PLANT. — Teerste es den kiele Van den scepe als princepael fondament. Want al dat den scepe es omtrent Neimpt vasticheydt anden kiel als princepael stye, EVERAERT 330 (aº. 1530). Anden kiel moeten zyn twee steven, Ald. Anden kiel ligghen de zandtstreken, 331. Als men de Kiel zal maecken, zoo neemt men enz., WITSEN, Scheepsb. 149 a. De Kiel moet ter weder zyden, op de dikte vande Voor, en Agtersteven toegehakt werden, V. YK, Scheepsb. 54. Ter weder sijden werd de Kiel met een Keep, Sponde genaemt, driehoekig ingehakt, Ald. 16 Voeten Holheid, uit de Kiel, 70. De ... Wrangen of Leggers op de Kiel, 69. 't Lasch van Kiel en Steven, 76. Geen balken van buitengewone grootte, als voor raamhouten, kielen of masthouhouten, (mogen) van de kapplaatsen vervoerd worden, voordat men enz., N.-I. Plakaatb. 15, 136 (aº. 1808). De stukken Hout voor de tezamenstelling van eene Kiel, RIJK, Handb. Scheepsb. 14. Tegen den onderkant van de Kiel heeft men de Looze Kiel, 18. De uiteinden van de kiel (zijn) geneigd om te zakken en aan haar eenen zoogenaamden kattenrug te veroorzaken, MOSSEL, Het Schip 49. Het raam van kiel en stevens, met de slemphouten enz., die gezamende langscheepsche gedaante daarstellen, ... de spanten of inhouten, die, dwars over den kiel heenstaande, de dwarsscheepsche gedaante van het schip bepalen, 145. De eigenlijke kiel .... Onder tegen dezelve ligt de buitenkiel en daaronder de looze kiel, 163. — De kiel leggen (Dl. VIII, kol. 1425) of toeleggen, stapelen, het eerste begin maken met den bouw van het schip. 1º. Eigenlijk. || Die kiel toeleggen, opsetten, staapelen, AUBIN, Dict. de Mar. 191. — Aldus de Kiel bereid sijnde, is sy bequaam om plaats, op de Stapelblocken, en Stootwiggen, te nemen, V. YK, Scheepsb. 55. De Kiel op stapels geleid, en Stevens daar opgerigt hebbende, 67. Boven op de stapelblokken wordt de kiel K gelegd, en voorts het schip afgebouwd, MOSSEL, Het Schip 143. 2º. Figuurlijk of bij vergelijking. Een begin met iets maken; den grond van iets leggen. || Dan willen wij ... een glaasje drinken op den goeden afloop van het scheepje, waar wij van avond de kiel van leggen, V. LIMB. BROUWER 1, 18 b. — Looze kiel, zie Dl. VIII, kol. 2906. — Vaste kiel, de eigenlijke scheepskiel; alleen bij tegenstelling met de looze kiel. || De ... duiker ... bevondt dat alleen de looze kiel, en de voering van den vasten kiel was afgestooten, BRANDT, De Ruiter 135. — Band of lap (Dl. VIII, kol. 1088) op de kiel, binnenkiel, tegenkiel, zaadhout. || Kolsem, Kolswijn, Saad-hout, Tegen-kiel, Bandt op de kiel, AUBIN, Dict. de Mar. 175 (Carlingue). De binnenkiel, ook wel lap op de kiel genaamd, TIDEMAN, Woordenb. v. Scheepsb. 162. — Kiel van Lang; Lang's kiel, omstreeks 1840 in gebruik gekomen (MODERA). || De kiel, naar het systema van den Engelschen Ingenieur O. Lang, uit twee deelen in de dikte gemaakt, namelijk eene binnen- en eene buitenkiel, en dan nog eene looze kiel, MOSSEL, Het Schip 148. Verg. verder (beneden) de samenst. binnen-, boven-, buiten-, onder-, tegenkiel. 2) Overdrachtelijk. Balkhout voor een kiel, om kielen van te maken. || Bij de Ned. Marine b. v. werden vanouds met den naam van balken aangeduid de eiken kielen, die in lengten van 12 tot 14 M. en in zwaarten van 24 bij 30 tot 40 bij 50 cM. worden aanbesteed enz., V. D. KLOES, Bouwm. 4, 170. 3) Bij de hedendaagsche ijzeren en stalen schepen, oneigenlijk. De naam voor het samenstel van ijzeren (stalen) platen, dat de kiel (in de bet. 1) als grondslag van het schip vervangt: plaatkiel (eng. plate keel); platte kiel, horizontale kielplaat (OOSTHOEK, Geïll. Encyclop. 7, 349 b). — Vertikale kiel, de vertikale plaat, ter versterking op de platte kiel aangebracht (OOSTHOEK, Geïll. Encyclop. 7, 349 b). B) Beschouwd, gedacht of genoemd als deel (het onderste, laagste) van —, als één met een volbouwd schip, een schip in de vaart. || Dat ... voortaen hem nyemant en sal vervorderen met eenige scepen ter zee te vaeren die minder zullen wesen dan 16 voeten kyels, in Versl. Vereen. O. Vad. Recht 5, 379 (aº. 1527). Dat alzulke sceepen daer zy mede vaeren willen, zullen hebben ten minsten zestien roedevoeten kyels, 5, 381 (aº. 1531). Dat onse voorseyde ondersaeten hem ... zauden vervoordert hebben ... ter Zee te varen ... met diversche schepen groot ende cleene: qualicken bewaert van kiele: oude, versleten ende lack, Vl. Placcaertb. 1, 360 (aº. 1549). Het Jacht beviel op de klippen, also dat het water hem gheheel ontliep, en datmen met het laeghste water droogh-voets onder de kiel neffens de groote mast mocht doorloopen: de kiel stont meer als een vadem uyt het water, O. e. W.-I. Spiegh. 155. Het schip ende koopmans goed (is) den schipper ende sijne schip-ghezellen verbonden voor de vracht, ende werd verstaen het schip overig te wezen zoo langh het kiel is in wezen, DE GROOT, Inl. II, 48, § 19. Alzo de vaartuigen onder, en in 't midden, vlak, en met een effen kiel, zyn, bij VALENTIJN, O.-I. I, 2, 67 a. Indien men zelf een Schip tot de Vleet koopt, laat men 't vervolgens wel verdubbelen, en zulks tot aan de achtersteven toe, als ook onder 't Vlak tot aan de Kiel, ZORGDRAGER, Groenl. Vissch. 330. Verbrijzeld werd alles, en van kiel en van mast Keerde niets, dan wat spaanderen weer, LULOFS, Ged. 109. Op de omgekeerde kiel eener boot lagen matrozen te slapen, BUSKEN HUET, Rub. 210. Iets donkers als 'n groote torpedo, kwam nader (t. w. een haai), verdween weer onder de kiel van het oorlogsschip, verscheen toen weer, PIM PERNEL, Zilte Verh. 57. — Kiel-uit. || De grootste helling, die men (bij 't kielen van een schip) noodig kan hebben, is de kiel boven water, men noemt dit kiel-uit, TIDEMAN, Woordenb. v. Scheepsb. 166. — Iemand onder de kiel (door) — ook onde door de kiel — halen of trekken, bij wijze van straf: hem kielhalen; onder de kiel door moeten, gekielhaald moeten worden. || Die zyn provande ofte een anders provande over bort worpe jegens zynen wille dien sal men onder den kiele deurtrecken, bij DE JONGE, Zeew. 1, 735 (aº. 1521?) Op peyne van driemael onder den kiele deurgetoghen te worden, Ald. Op pene van driemael onder de Kiel getrocken te worden, Gr. Placaatb. 2, 194 (aº. 1636). Laet sulcks niet meer geschien, Of ick sweer u by mijn eere, Ghy sult onder al door de Kiel, bij SCHEURLEER, Van varen en vechten 3, 119. Men loopt hem (den straffeling) ..., eerst langzaam, om hem onder de kiel door te halen, en naderhand, wanneer men berekenen kan dat hij er onder henen is, gezwind naar boven, C. DE JONG, Derde reize n. d. Middell. Zee 1, 78. — Bodem en kiel, top en kiel, enz. || Die duerck droech ende die kiel nat, De kaert vander zee (aº. 1532), 2. (Een schip) wel voorzien, ghestoffeert ende toe-gherust, ... vast ende ghetrauwe van bodeme ende kiele, Vl. Placcaertb. 1, 363 (aº. 1549). Dat Top ende Kijl duer zijn ghena, Ende door zijn goetheyt gheen quaet en besta, Leeskaartb. v. Wisbuy (aº. 1566) 178. — Mast en kiel, in de spreekw. Zooveel als of (Al) wat mast en kiel houden of lijden kan (mag): Dl. IX, kol. 288. || Zoo veel als mast en kiel lijden kan, autant qu'il est possible, HALMA. — Bodemerij op de kiel van 't schip; op de kiel scheeps, bodemerij (Dl. III, kol. 44), geldleening onder verband van 's scheeps kiel; enz. || Waer door sy hen dickwils ontgaen hebben in 't stuck van de Bodemerye of op de KielScheeps iet t'ontfangen ofte koopen, Handv. v. Amst. 541 a (aº. 1527). Dat voortaen geen Schip-Heer aen dese sijde der Zee iet sal mogen kopen oft ontfangen op de Kiel van den Schepe, ende alsoo Bodemerye plegen, dan enz., 541 b (aº. 1527). De zommighe van dien hem betrauwende op de goede aventure van winde ende wedere. ... Eenighe andere op de bomerie ofte wissel, op den kiele ofte baete van den schepe, takelijnghe ende toerustijnghe van dien: bedraghende also vele ofte meer, dan tvoorseyde schip ... weert was, Vl. Placcaertb. 1, 361 (aº. 1549). Gheldt op schips bodem (dat men ghemeenelicken bomerie ofte wissel opt hol ofte kiele van den Schepen namende es), 1, 368 (aº. 1549). Een yeghelick die sal willen asseureren het kiel ofte hol van zynen Schepe ... de zelve sal ghehouden syn t'selve ... te doen estimeren, by lieden hemlieden dies verstaende, 2, 331 (aº. 1563). Verg. DE GROOT, Inl. III, 20, § 47, aangehaald Dl. III, kol. 45. II) Overdrachtelijk. Het deel voor 't geheel genomen: Een vaartuig; een schip. 1) In overgangsgevallen, waar men in twijfel is of niet metterdaad de eigenlijke beteekenis wordt bedoeld. || 'k Vloeck ... de kiel Die twee Fredericken deylde, Soon en vader overseylde, VONDEL 2, 766 (Over 't verongelucken van den Ionghen Keurvorst). De nutte Zeebouw is 't, die rykelyck all' 't geen, Dat ieder eigen heeft, aen allen maeckt gemeen; De kiel is 't, die den ploeg en landbouw doet beklyven, En hem zyn zweet vergoed met macht van goude schyven, DE DECKER 1, 114. Zoo klieve kiel bij kiel de baren, NIEUWLAND, Nag. Ged. 56. 2) Met algeheele overdracht; vaak zeker in dichterlijke navolging van lat. carina — bij de classieke poëeten — voor 't geheele schip, maar ook onafhankelijk daarvan en als technische term in scheeps- en zeemanstaal. Verg. de overdr. toepassing van bodem (Dl. III, kol. 38), steven, en zeil (zie die woorden). || Tot dat ick hem in deez' Stadt Op snelle kielen bracht, COSTER 568. Sy die op zee met kielen, Ter sneller vaert gebouwt, Sich geven, CAMPHUYZEN, Ps. 107, 12. Sesostris, ... Die door 't Arabisch meir een vlote kielen sleept, VONDEL 1, 134. t'Oneyndelyck ghetal van dees gevlerckte Kielen, 1, 136. Ten steeckt den Grajen niet op tien of twalef kielen, 2, 421. Men klaeght, indien de kiele strand, Maer niet, wanneerse, rijck gelaên ..., In een behoude haven land, 3, 182. De Koopman ... kalfatert zijne lecke kiel, 6, 392. Haaren Vorst te waater in zijn kielen, te lande op zijnen klepper ... gevolght te hebben, G. BRANDT, in HOOFT, Br. 4, 451. Dat vier ... stak den kiel van Wassenaar in brandt, G. BRANDT, Poëzy 2, 37. Het bootsvolk ... klom op het boort der kielen, DROSTE, Overbl. 30. Haare magtige vlooten, en zoo rykgeladene kielen, VALENTIJN, O.-I. I, 1, 298 b. Dat ... niemand ... aan boord van eenige Comps schepen ..., met speceryen geladen, ... mag komen of met een vaartuyg aan of agter zoo een kiel gaan leggen, dan na dat ze ... gevisiteerd zullen zyn, N.-I. Plakaatb. 8, 119 (aº. 1766). Die 't eerst zijn kiel den golven wagen, Zich-zelv' der kiel betrouwen dorst, BILD. 8, 180. Uw ranke kiel, 13, 32. Tharsis voert met rijke kielen, Geschenken naar zijn hof, Psalmber. 72, 5. Daar komt de kiel, met goud belaân, Ze brengt ons d'eersten haring aan, SPANDAW 4, 134. Honderde kielen liggen daar ten anker, POTGIETER 3, 58. Duizend kielen Verheffen in het dok haar statig mastgeboomt! LEDEGANCK 23. Handel schijnt te bloeien; schepen varen ... naar en van alle havens; er is gekrioel van kielen en wielen, QUACK, Soc. 4, 53. De Witte Zee ... zag thans meer Engelsche kielen dan Hollandsche matrozen, DE BEAUFORT, Geschiedk. Opst. 2, 9. — Kielen, Wielen, Rand om 't Land! Tafeldronk op 't welzijn van Zeevaart, Akkerbouw en Dijkwezen (V. LENNEP, Zeem.-Wdb. 101). || De Kielen en de Wielen en de Rand van 't Land. Vaderlandsche Feestdronk, BEETS 42, 44 (titel). III) Bij vergelijking. — 1) In de plantenkunde; wetenschappel.-lat. carina. Benaming voor een deel van de bloemkroon der Vlinderbloemigen, t. w. voor de twee onderste kroonbladeren die in den vorm van een schuitje zijn samengegroeid: nhd. kiel, eng. keel, fra. carène en quille. || Carina; Kiel: dus word het benedenste kielformige of uitgeholde blad aan de vlinder-bloemen (flores papilionacei) genaamt, dat de helmstijltjes en 't stampertje bevat, CHOMEL, Verv. 348 b. Van deze blaadjes (t. w. die der vlindervormige bloemkroon) wordt het bovenste ... vlag, de twee zijdelingsche vleugels en de twee onderste te zamen kiel geheeten, omdat zij, langs een hunner randen aan elkander sluitend, eene soort van schuitje vormen, OUDEMANS, Flora2 1, 121. 2) Mogelijk berust ook kiel, kruis van de broek (Zaanstreek) op vergelijking van het bodemstuk van dit kleedingstuk met de kiel van een schip. (Wellicht heeft KILIAAN die beteekenis gekend, en heeft deze hem op de gedachte gebracht om (het met een Romaanschen uitgang van broek afgeleide) broeckilie (zie het art. BROEKILLE), elders in zijn Etymologicum, als een samenstelling uit broek en kiel voor te stellen; verg. zijn art.: kiele. Sax. Sicamb. Fris. j. broeckkiele). || Ik zel 'en nuwe kiel in je broek zetten, BOEKENOOGEN 423. Afl. Kielen (1ste art.), kieler, kielschip („Een kieler, by alle Saxische stammen in gebruik, en welks naam — een van een kiel voorzien vaartuig beteekenend — vroeger ongetwijfeld een meer algemeene, thands slechts een soortelyke beteekenis heeft”, HOFDIJK, Voorgesl. 2, 243); gekield, zie Dl. IV, kol. 956 en de volgende plaats („Schuytkens, boetkens off ander cleyne gekielde sceepkens om te visschen”, in Versl. Vereen. O. Vad. Recht 5, 381 (aº. 1531). Samenst. samenst. afl. en koppel. A) Als eerste lid. Kielboot, -gang, -halen, -jacht, -schip, -sponde en -sponning (2de art.), -vlak, -water, -zog (zie die woorden). En verder onder meer in In de bet. I, A, 1). — Kielbom, bom (4de art.) met een kiel. || Een geladen kielbom heeft ... 2,40 M. ... diepgang, in De Nieuwe Cour. v. 8 Dec. 1903. — Kielboog: „Boog in den vorm van een scheepskiel”, ZWIERS, Bouwk. Wdb. 1, 622 b. — Kielgeld, zekere heffing. || Loots-, tonnen-, kiel-, anker-, dok- en havengelden, bij V. HOUTEN, Kooph. 310. — Kielhak: „Uitstekend achtereind van de kiel, waarop het ondereind van 't roer steun vindt”, BLY, Zeilvischsl. 211. — Kielhout, bij TOLLENS voor: kiel. || Het zware zaagblad ..., ... bogtig loopt het op Van uit het kielhout heen tot naar den steventop, 6, 26 (Verov. v. Damiate). Het zaagblad, en het kielhout, en de steven, En heel de bodem (schiet) door de keten, 6, 37. — Kielklos. || Kiel-klots. Massif de cale. — Dead wood, TWENT, Zeem.-Wdb. — Kielkram, koperen kram, met platte uiteinden, waarin gaten (spijkergaten), dienende tot bevestiging van de looze kiel aan de kiel. || De looze Kiel (wordt) aan de Kiel bevestigd met koperen Kielkrammen, RIJK, Handl. Scheepsb. 18. — Kiellasch, liggende haaklasch tot verbinding van de kielstukken; Vlaamsche lasch. || Kiel-las. Flamant. — Keel scarf, TWENT, Zeem.-Wdb. — Hoe de Kiels-laszen gehouden werden, WITSEN, Scheepsb. 149 a. — Kiellinie. — 1º. De door de scheepskiel gevormde lijn. || Een schip buyten t'middelront en middachront so seylende, dat de booch getrocken vande kiellini totten aspunt (van de aarde), altijt op de kiellini een selven houck maeckt, S. STEVIN, Gedacht. 2, 88. 2º. Vlootformatie waarbij de kielen der schepen in één lijn liggen. || De in kiellinie liggende vaartuigen. Van divisie-kiellinie uitloopen in eskaderkiellinie. — Kielmossel, soort van weekdier: Carinaria (KUIPERS). — Kielplaat, plaatkiel. || Plaatkiel, ook wel ... horizontale Kielplaat genoemd, OOSTHOEK, Geïll. Encyclop. 7, 349 b. — Kielplank, bij de Blankenbergsche vischschuit. Een dikke plank overlangs in het midden onder het schip, van steven tot steven (BLY, Zeilvischsl.2 142; 211). || Voor- en Achtervis, ... zware houten knieën, ... het lijf dient tot verlenging der kielplank, ... de tak tot steunpunt van voor- en achtersteven, BLY, a. w. 142. — Kielpootig, een kielvormige poot (voet) hebbende: van eene afdeeling der Buikpootigen (de slakken), t. w. de kiel- of vinvoetslakken (Heteropoda). Bij V. DALE. — Kielpunt. || De verhouding van het kielpunt tot het zeilpunt als verklaring hoe het komt dat een zeilvaartuig op enkele streken na tegen den wind in zeilt, PHILIPPONA, Zeilen 294. — Kielschieters, mv., spotnaam voor de Rotterdammers, omdat zij geschoten zouden hebben op een onderste-boven in de Maas drijvende schuit, die zij voor een walvisch aanzagen (SCHRIJNEN, Volksk. 2, 78). — Kielstrop. || Behalve de reeds genoemde bouten en spijkers, komt er nog een koperen strop, kielstrop geheeten, om de onderste stuik van de lasch, van welke strop de veeren eindigen onder de sponning, MOSSEL, Schip 149. — Kielstuk. — 1º. Zwaar stuk hout, geschikt om een deel van een kiel uit te zagen. — 2º. Een der samenstellende deelen van een kiel. || Een (Rijnschen Sommer) ... om tot een Kielstuk te dienen, lang 49, en dik 2 Voeten vierkant, kon men niet minder als voor 190 Guldens koopen, V. YK, Scheepsb. 37. Nadat de kielstukken gereed gemaakt en op de breedte en dikte bezaagd zijn, TIDEMAN, Wdb. v. Scheepsb. 163. — Kielverscherving, het onderling verspringen van de samenstellende deelen eener kiel (V. LENNEP, Zeem.-Wdb.). — Kielvoet, in de samenst. kielvoetslak, slak met kielvormigen voet; verg. hierboven Kielpootig. || De Kielvoetslakken (Heteropoda). ... Zeer eigenaardig is de vorm van den voet, die van voren den vorm heeft van eene vin enz., BURGERSDIJK, Dieren 3, 650. — Kielvoetig, kielpootig (zie ald.). || De Kielvoetigen (Heteropoda). ... Het voorste en middenste gedeelte van den voet is in eene bladvormige vin ... herschapen, WINKLER PRINS, Geïll. Encyclop.1 13, 186 (Slakken). — Kielvormig. || Carinatus. Kielformig, of uitgeholt, als de kiel of holte van een schip, CHOMEL, Verv. 348 b. In de bet. II, 2). — Kielkruisen, met zijn kiel kruisen. || Gelijck de Zee-man leit En kiel-kruyst voor den mond van hooger waller haven, HUYGENS 1, 495. — Kielmorselend, de schepen verbrijzelend. || Die met my, in buldrende onweêrslagen, 't Kielmorslend nat bekruist, DE MARRE, Bespieg. 3. — Kielverdelgend. || Het Lenteblaezend West, Het kielverdelgend Noort en zijn verwoede buien, ANTONIDES 1, 14. — Als tweede lid. Kimkiel (zie ald.). Voorts: In de bet. I, A, 1). — Achterkiel: „het agterste gedeelte van de Kiel, synde die balck, daer het Roer aangehangen werd”, WINSCHOOTEN, Seem. 7. — Ballastkiel. || Het aanbrengen van den ballast zoo laag mogelijk, heeft het grootste effect: vandaar dat een ballastkiel het beste is, PHILIPPONA, Zeilen 237. — Binnenkiel, tegenkiel (Dl. II, kol. 2720). — Bovenkiel (TIDEMAN, Woordenb. v. Scheepsb. 163; 164). — Buitenkiel (zie Dl. III, kol. 1815). — Dokkiel, bij ijzeren en stalen schepen). || Tegen beschadiging en tevens voor versterking wordt soms onder tegen de kielplaat een platte ijzeren staaf de z. g. dokkiel, verbonden, OOSTHOEK, Geïll. Encyclop. 7, 349 b. — Dropkiel, eng. drop-keel: „a projecting keel, as distinquished from a plate-keel” (N. E. D). || Dropkielen en waterkielen ..., waardoor de zeewaardigheid (van zekere reddingsbooten) wordt verhoogd en ... het beter loefhouden en gemakkelijke sturen wordt bevorderd, in N. Rott. Cour. v. 16 Apr. 1893, II B. — Onderkiel. || Van een flotille vaartuig, dat geen losse onderkiel had, was de kiel dik 0,28, breed 0,30 el, TIDEMAN, Wdb. van Scheepsb. 165. — Plaatkiel, eng. plate-keel, de platte, uit een horizontale kielplaat bestaande kiel der groote ijzeren (en stalen) schepen. — Scheepskiel (Dl. XIV, kol. 712). — Schipskiel (V. YK, Scheepsb. 17). — Tegenkiel. — Bij WINSCHOOTEN, Seem. 105 als synoniem van buitenkiel; bij AUBIN, Dict. de Mar. 175 gelijkbet. met binnenkiel (kolsem; zaadhout). — Waterkiel. Zie de aanhaling bij Dropkiel. In de bet. II, 2) Rooverkiel (Dl. XIII, kol. 1375); overkielen (Dl. XI, kol. 1784). KIEL (V) — KIL en KEEL —, znw. vr. Gelijkbet. met nhd. kehle (dach-, einkehle). Term in de bouwkunde. De inspringende hoek die door twee hellende dakvlakken gevormd wordt. || Kiel. Noue. Kehle, Einkehle, PIJTAK. Kiel, keel, dakkeel, V. HOUCKE, Loodg. 373. Kieltje, ... kleine kiel, daar waar de zijwang van een staand dakvenster het dak raakt, 375. Kiel, of Kil. Waar twee hellende dakvlakken een inspringenden hoek met elkaar maken, krijgt men een kiel, ZWIERS, Bouwk. Wdb. 1, 622 b. — Bij aaneengeschakelde bomvrije lokalen had men vroeger de gewoonte, de kielen of inspringende hoeken, gevormd tusschen de aanraseringen, ter breedte van 30 � 40 duim plat bij te metselen, onder een kleine afhelling naar de buitenzijde van het gebouw, ten einde zoodoende een goot te vormen, STORM V. 'S-GRAV., Bouwk. 1, 378. De kielen belegt men ... met lood, Ald. Bij killen worden de leien evenwijdig aan den kilkeper schuin afgesnoten en laat men het killood eenvoudig 7 tot 10 cM. onder de leien schieten, V. D. KLOES, Bouwm. 1, 245. Samenst. — Als eerste lid. Kielkeper (zie ald.). Verder in — Kielbedekking. || Soms soldeert men de verschillende deelen der kielbedekking, V. HOUCKE, Loodg. 374. — Kielberd, kielbord. — Kielbord. || Kielberd, kielbord ... De plank of de planken die de kiel vormen, V. HOUCKE, Loodg. 375. Kielbord, of kielkeperplank, ZWIERS, Bouwk. Wdb. 1, 622 b (zie aanstonds Kielgoot). — Kielgoot. || Kielbord, of kielkeperplank. Plank, welke ter weerszijden van een kielkeper ... over de gordingen der kap wordt gespijkerd, tot vorming van een kielgoot, ZWIERS, Bouwk. Wdb. 1, 622 b. In het volgende voorbeeld moet van de looden bedekking of bekleeding van zulk een goot sprake zijn. || Ontvreemd ... onder Spijkenisse ... 1 zware looden kielgoot, lang 5 en breed 1 Nederl. el, zwaar naar gissing 150. Nederl. ponden, Algem. Politiebl. 1856, bl. 34. — Kiellood (V. HOUCKE, Loodg. 375), killood (V. D. KLOES, Bouwmat. 1, 145), het lood tot het bedekken of bekleeden van kielen. — Kielpan, holle dakpan, welke in de kielgoot kan worden bevestigd, en waarin de behakte stukken der dakpannen langs de kiel komen te rusten (ZWIERS, Bouwk. Wdb. 1, 622 b); keel (5de art.). — Kielrib, rib welke soms in de lengte op de kielkeper wordt gespijkerd (ZWIERS, Bouwk. Wdb. 1, 623 a). — Als tweede lid. Binnenkeel (STAMMETZ-LA BORDUS, Wisk. Wdb. 414); dakkeel (Dl. III, kol. 2249). KIEL (VI), znw. (vr. ?), hetzelfde als KEEL (II), de bet. II, 9). Trechtervormig binnennet in een fuik; ink; inkel; inkeling. In de Zaanstreek. || In een fuik brengt men verscheidene kielen aan, om de visch naar de verschillende kamers ... der fuik te leiden, BOEKENOOGEN 424. KIEL (VII) — KIL —, znw. vr. (ook manl.). Mnl. kiel. Zie ook bij KIL (I). 1) Eigenlijk. Diep, bocht, boezem, baai. || Kille, kiele. Statio, locus in littore sinuosus, sinus, KIL. (verg. ald.: kiel, kille. Statio, palus littorea, en: kille. j. diepte). — Wy roeyden met den eenen boot dicht bijt lant in een Kielleken, want het over al seer steenich is, O.-I. e. W.-I. Voyag. 10, 46 b. 2) In de uitdrukking mnl. die helsche kiel als omschrijvende benaming voor: de hel — verg. die helsche pit — (VERDAM 3, 1414) en vervolgens, oneigenlijk, in: 's werelds kiel, voor: de wereld, gelijkbet. met 's werelds plein. || By dien moet ghy wel kennen dan Dat hu Elckerlyc binnen sweerels kielen vliet, EVERAERT 290. 3) Hoe weinig men zich waarschijnlijk bij deze uitdrukkingen nog iets werkelijks voorstelde; hoe zij tot formules geworden waren; blijkt nader wel uit een verbinding als de kiel der hooger bergen. || De tweeste pissijne als een fonteyne staet Binnen Jherusalem, waer jn dat viel Tsemels water, maer duer den kiel Der hoogher berghen wiertse oock vervult, EVERAERT 372. KIEL (VII) — KIL —, znw. vr. (ook manl.). Mnl. kiel. Zie ook bij KIL (I). 1) Eigenlijk. Diep, bocht, boezem, baai. || Kille, kiele. Statio, locus in littore sinuosus, sinus, KIL. (verg. ald.: kiel, kille. Statio, palus littorea, en: kille. j. diepte). — Wy roeyden met den eenen boot dicht bijt lant in een Kielleken, want het over al seer steenich is, O.-I. e. W.-I. Voyag. 10, 46 b. 2) In de uitdrukking mnl. die helsche kiel als omschrijvende benaming voor: de hel — verg. die helsche pit — (VERDAM 3, 1414) en vervolgens, oneigenlijk, in: 's werelds kiel, voor: de wereld, gelijkbet. met 's werelds plein. || By dien moet ghy wel kennen dan Dat hu Elckerlyc binnen sweerels kielen vliet, EVERAERT 290. 3) Hoe weinig men zich waarschijnlijk bij deze uitdrukkingen nog iets werkelijks voorstelde; hoe zij tot formules geworden waren; blijkt nader wel uit een verbinding als de kiel der hooger bergen. || De tweeste pissijne als een fonteyne staet Binnen Jherusalem, waer jn dat viel Tsemels water, maer duer den kiel Der hoogher berghen wiertse oock vervult, EVERAERT 372. KIEL (IX), bnw., met de bet.: Onverschillig; zorgeloos(?) || Cr. s'En is (t. w. sprekers vrouw) van de Sorgeloose niet, die daer geduerich sitten hucken Over hunnen Lolle pot. ... N. Foey wat dat ghy seght. ... Cr. Het is de waerheydt, ... Daer syn van die Sleur-beulingen, die Sleyplendens soo kiel, Al waert dat haer jets nootsaeckelijckx ontviel Die daerom niet 'en souwen van hun Stoelen op rysen, OGIER, Seven Hoofts. 283. KIELSPIT, znw. onz. Friesch kylspit. Wigvormig ingespitte aardgeul, grep, greppel, vore; hetzelfde als KIELSTEEK. Verg. KIELSPITTEN. Verg. voor de beteekenis ook kielsponde, kielsponning (zie die woorden; de eerste artikelen), alsmede fri. kylgreppel, kylgroppe, wigvormige ontwateringsgreppel in den berm terzijde van den weg. 1) In 't algemeen. || Kîlspit, o. spitstoeloopend gat met de spade in den grond gemaakt; scheidsgrep in het land, GALLÉE 20 b. 2) In technischen zin. Bij het af- of uitsteken (traceeren) van een aard-, een grondwerk, enz. Een langs een richtsnoer ingespitte, wigvormige, één steek breede gleuf of vore, tot afbakening, tijdelijke uitbakening, aangeving of bepaling van het uit te voeren werk. (Gelijkbet. nhd. keilspitz, term in den vestingbouw, moet naar 't Nederlandsche woord zijn gevormd). || Een Ingenieur ..., by hem ... hebbende 50 of 60 Pioniers, die de kielspitten steken langs gespannen lonten, te weten twee rechte linien 6 voeten van malkander voor breede des grachts, STEVIN, Legermeting 39. De voorschreven kielspitten alzoo ghesteken zijnde, daer rest rekening te maken hoe veel voeten grachts elc regiment zal uytgraven, 40. Alle d'aennemers van dese voorseijde bestedinge sullen gehouden zijn elck voor zijn werck aen 't kielspit, datter tegenwoordelijcken leijt, op te scieten ende te maecken eenen sloot boven wijt 8 voeten, 4 voeten diepe ende 4 voeten breet, in den bodem blijvende int hoochste ende leechste naer advenant, ende tvoorseijde kielspit sal blijven den uuytercant van de voorseijde sloot, bij VIERLINGH, Tract. v. Dyck. 125. Alvorens den aanleg van den dijk te beginnen, wordt de rigting en het profil naauwkeurig uitgebaakt en op het terrein de juiste grenzen van het binnen- en buitenbeloop met een kielspit aangewezen, STORM BUYSING, Waterb. 1, 362. Binnen deze kielspitten worden de zoden afgeroofd, Ald. Nadat men ... b. v. om de 10—12 M. een teeken aangebracht heeft, kan men voor een „nette” uitvoering van het werk dan nog tusschen deze in ... een kielspit ... maken, COOL, Leerb. d. Pionierk. 1, 20. 3) Bij verwisseling. De uit een gespitte groef, gleuf of vore opgespitte grond (tot waterkeering). Dan gelijkbet. met friesch kylseadden, wig vormige zoden, die dicht aaneengesloten op een rij op de kruin van een polderdijk worden gelegd, als het buitenwater tot die hoogte is opgestuwd (Friesch Wdb. 2, 53 a). || Een tijdlang (kan) het water met noodmiddelen (kielspitten, dammen van aarde enz.) ... worden gekeerd, Versl. Landb. 1917, 1, 36 (over den Frieschen boezem). Omdat men in tijden van hoogen boezemwaterstand de lage plaatsen tijdelijk vrij afdoende weet te verhoogen met kielspitten, uit de zode gestoken, 1, 42. Somtijds worden zelfs twee kielspitten (met een derde tot steun er achter) op elkaar gezet, Ald. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 4 23:56:12 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 15:56:12 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAR.2004 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (07) [D/E] > _Snak_ () is 'talk', 'chat' (both noun and verb) in the more easterly > North Saxon dialects (probably corresponding to _proat_, _praot_, etc. > farther west), and from there made its way into Scandinavian. (I believe > that's the direction it took. Or did it come *from* Scandinavian?) LS > _snak_ can also denote 'gossip' (e.g., _Dat is man bloots so 'n snak mang de > lüyd'_ 'It's just some gossip making its rounds'). My etymological dictionary says that "snak/snack" is Low Saxon and originally meant "vrøvl, vås" ie. the same as "vysevaze". I also know that in the older generations "at snakke" is considered a bad form of conversation and they prefer the verb "at tale". Today they can be used almost in place of each other, but you still see that "tale" is of a higher prestige. I heard that 'tale' is barely used in Norwegian today. ex. "Tal pænt!" ~ speak properly "Det kan der ikke være tale om" "Du må ikke tale med munden fuld" "Peter taler som et vandfald" (idiom - so different) vs. "Peter snakker hele tiden" ~ Peter speaks the whole time "Folk snakker i krogene" ~ /People talk in the corners/ Snakker seems a bit more informal still...so it probably meant the same as "vyzevase" which apparently had the same meaning then as Danish "vissevasse" today. Cheers, Kenneth ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Hey, Kenneth, Lowlanders! > My etymological dictionary says that "snak/snack" is Low Saxon and > originally meant "vrøvl, vås" ie. the same as "vysevaze". This is consistent with North Saxon _snak_ (noun) and _snakken_ (verb) in a negative sense. > I also know that in the older generations "at snakke" is considered a > bad form of conversation and they prefer the verb "at tale". Today they > can be used almost in place of each other, but you still see that "tale" > is of a higher prestige. I heard that 'tale' is barely used in Norwegian > today. I remember that, when I was in Denmark, people would use _tale_ in polite and formal situations and _snakke_ in casual talk. I also remember once being corrected (in a well-meaning way) by a middle-aged lady when I (a mere teen) once used _snakke_ in a conversation with her. (At that time, people found it very unusual for a foreigner to choose to learn Danish, and the nice ones among them really made a fuss and tried to help me.) Furthermore, I don't remember ever hearing _tale_ used in conversations while I was in Norway, only on the radio and TV (and in writing). It was always _snakke_ where I hung out (with a _shn..._ pronunciation, which I found rather "disturbing" as a North German having approached Norwegian via Danish). The Danish case is similar to that of Missingsch (German dialects on LS substrate): _sprechen_ and _reden_ are more formal, "better," for 'to talk', while _snacken_ or _schnacken_ is informal. The latter is also semantically very flexible in that it can denote 'to speak', 'to talk', 'to converse', 'to chat', 'to gossip', 'to babble', 'to mouth off', 'to tell off', etc. It depends on the context and tone. The Norwegian case is similar to that of North Saxon dialects. _Snakken_ () is *the* word, and _spreken_ or _reden_ are highly unusual and super-formal. They sound _geel_ ("yellow"), i.e., "High"-German(-influenced). (Cf. German _sprechen_ and _reden_) Incidentally, a derivation from _snakken_ and _snak_ is _snakvat_ ( "babble barrel," "yak vat," etc.), denoting either a talkative person or a person who likes to talk behind people's backs. _Spreken_ and _reden_ are more common, if not normal, in the eastern dialects, also in the Eastphalian ones, I believe. In the far northwest (including Eastern Friesland and in the northern part of the Saxon-speaking region of the Netherlands) it is _praten_ (and variations thereof). In the southwestern dialects (Westphalia, Munster Region, and Twente, I believe) it is _köyren_ (, , etc.). Might this _köyren_ 'to chat' (> 'to talk', 'to speak') be related to Dutch _kuieren_ 'to (go for a) stroll', 'to saunter', 'to lounge (around)'? If so, I assume that the common semantic base would be *"to while away the time." > originally meant "vrøvl, vås" ie. the same as "vysevaze". _Vrøvl_ must be related to (derived from?) LS _vrevel_ ~ _vrövel_ ~ _vrewel_ ~ _vröwel_ 'heinous deed', 'crime', 'evil-doing', 'wantonness', 'sin(fulness)' (cf. German _Frevel_, Dutch _vrevel_?). I feel it's a very old-fashioned, biblical-sounding word. I wonder if _vås_ is related to (i.e. the /-l-/ iterative verb form of) Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _vaseln_ () 'to tarry' > 'to talk idly', 'to drivel' etc. (also German _faseln_). I guess there must have been a noun *_vaas_ (*) at one time, but I can't think of one being used nowadays. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 5 00:19:11 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 16:19:11 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language minorities" 2004.03.04 (09) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAR.2004 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Subject: LL-L "Language minorities" 2004.03.04 (02) [E] on 5/3/04 1:29, Lowlands-L at lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net wrote: > How did people from Flanders come to south-western Wales and how did they > manage to keep their own cultural identity, including their language? It seems that there were settlements of Flemish merchants in Wales. Story goes that Scotland's King Alexander wanted to establish strong settled Burghs in his domains and imported weavers from Flanders and nerchants from Wales to get things moving. Hence the Scots surnames Welch, Willis, and Wallace. Seems our National Hero came from Flemish stock as did other noble Scots families including The Douglasses.. Regards Tom Tom Mc Rae PSOC Brisbane Australia "The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude, To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang, And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang." >>From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess' ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language minorities G'day, Tom! > Seems our National Hero came from Flemish stock as did other noble > Scots families including The Douglasses.. An dinna forgit oor ain byous, lief Goth-Scot: Sawnie Fleimin (a.k.a. Sandy Fleming)! Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 5 01:20:44 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 17:20:44 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAR.2004 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (08) [E] My books says that vås might be related to Low Saxon backwaschen (bagvaske). Vissevasse/visvas (vyzevase I suppose) from older hvishvas, where hvas is an older form of vås. The only info about vrøvl is: vrøvle (ældre nydansk vrævle, at sno noget sammen, svensk dialekt vrövla) I think this is supposed to mean that it is a loan from Swedish. > > originally meant "vrøvl, vås" ie. the same as "vysevaze". > > _Vrøvl_ must be related to (derived from?) LS _vrevel_ ~ _vrövel_ ~ _vrewel_ > ~ _vröwel_ 'heinous deed', 'crime', 'evil-doing', 'wantonness', > 'sin(fulness)' (cf. German _Frevel_, Dutch _vrevel_?). I feel it's a very > old-fashioned, biblical-sounding word. > > I wonder if _vås_ is related to (i.e. the /-l-/ iterative verb form of) > Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _vaseln_ () 'to tarry' > 'to talk idly', > 'to drivel' etc. (also German _faseln_). I guess there must have been a > noun *_vaas_ (*) at one time, but I can't think of one being used > nowadays. > > Regards, > Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: Kevin Caldwell Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (08) [E] > From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (07) [D/E] > > Snakker seems a bit more informal still...so it probably meant the same > as "vyzevase" which apparently had the same meaning then as Danish > "vissevasse" today. > > Cheers, Kenneth It just occurred to me that this "vyzevase" sounds like whispering, so could it have the connotation of "idle rumor", that is, something that is whispered. I would also suggest "pish-posh" as an English equivalent. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 5 01:22:11 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 17:22:11 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language minorities" 2004.03.04 (11) [S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAR.2004 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Subject: LL-L "Language minorities" 2004.03.04 (09) [E/S] on 5/3/04 10:19, Lowlands-L at lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net wrote: > An dinna forgit oor ain byous, lief Goth-Scot: Sawnie Fleimin (a.k.a. Sandy > Fleming)! Whae cuid ivver furget Ooor Sandie ? Regards Tom Tom Mc Rae PSOC Brisbane Australia "The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude, To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang, And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang." >>From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess' ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 5 05:35:29 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 21:35:29 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (12) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAR.2004 (12) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Fowk, OK, here’s the deal (or part thereof) with Danish _vrøvle_, Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _vrevel_ ~ _vrövel_, etc. At least I think so. First of all, the Danish form and probably also the other Scandinavian forms denote 'to gossip', 'to talk behind someone's back'. While they are undoubtedly related to the LS and German words, they seem to have gone into a specific semantic direction other than those of their LS and German counterparts. According to etymological sources, the origin of the word group does not seem to be completely clear, although old forms are known. Middle Saxon has the adjective/adverb _vrevel_, which developed from Old Saxon _fraƀol_, while German has the adjective/adverb _frevel_ (becoming obsolete in favor of _frevelhaft_), derived from Middle ("High") German _vrevel_ and ultimately from Old German _fravali_. These have the meanings '(overly) daring', 'foolhardy', 'hotheaded', 'imprudent', '(too) clever (for one's own good)', 'defiant', 'contrary', 'flouting', etc. From this, nouns (_vrevel_ ~ _vrövel_, _Frevel_) and verbs (_vreveln_ ~ _vröveln_, _freveln_) were derived, denoting pretty much the expected actions and deeds. Furthermore, at some point in time a semantic extension to 'transgression', 'wrongdoing', 'sin', etc., occurred I have a feeling that the underlying semantic theme is *"wrongdoing," "aggression," "aggressive," "unseemly," etc., considering the above-mentioned meanings and the frequent use of Middle German _vrevelen_ in the sense of 'to commit an aggressive act', 'to commit rape'. However, this may not be the original meaning. I somehow doubt that it is. Old English has the cognate _frævel_ 'clever', 'mischievous', 'cheeky', 'silly'. Can anyone come up with Modern English and/or Scots derivations? I can't. However, I wonder if there is a relationship -- genealogical or loan-wise -- between these words and English "frivolous" and its now rare or obsolete derivation "fribble" ('trifling', 'fickle', 'not serious', 'silly', 'irresponsible'), Scots _frevoll_ ~ _frivole_ ~ _fruel_ ('trifling', 'fickle', 'unreliable', 'irresponsible'), and German _frivol_ ('trifling', 'suggestive', 'risqué', 'irresponsible'). These are supposed to be derived from French _frivole_ ('frivolous', 'shallow', 'flighty') and Latin _frīvolus_ ('trifling', 'silly'). Germanic _vrevel_, _fraƀol_, _fravali_, _frævel_, etc., with semantic ranges related to those of Romance _frivole_ and _frīvolus_ ... Coincident? So what is the etymology of Latin _frīvolus_? _Frīvol-_ 'trifling', 'silly'. This doesn't seem to get us much farther now, does it? I would expect us to be able to dissected this root further. So, might there be an ancient, perhaps Indo-European, connection? Or are we dealing with loaning? If loaning, then which way? Is it an early, poorly explained Latin loan, or could it be a Germanic (or other) loan in Latin even, which then made its way back into Germanic? What do you think, folks? Am I barking up the wrong tree, pushing the envelop, going over the edge? (It wouldn't be the first time, to be sure.) I didn't see anything about it in any of the etymological sources I consulted. To push the envelop even a tad farther, let me ask you if you think that "free" (Germanic *_frijaz_, Icelandic _frjáls_) and "reign" (Old English _wealdan_ < Germanic *_wald-_ < I-E *_ŭal-dh­­­-_), or perhaps a word akin to "will," might be lurking behind the backdrop. Thanks for thinking about it. Regards, Reinhard/Ron P.S.: By the way, when I was a child (which seems like eons ago) grown-ups would use German _frei_ or LS _vrey_ 'free' to mean 'risqué', 'adults-only', etc. For example, a certain movie or TV show was considered "too free" for us kids to watch (which meant that we had to go to bed); i.e., it was not PG13 (which at that time was just about 75% of movie and TV offerings). I haven't come across this usage lately. Was this one of my uptight clan's idiosyncrasies, or are some of you familiar with it too? ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 5 15:24:53 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 07:24:53 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.05 (01) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.04 (04) [E] > From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen > Subject: Vissevasse > What does vysevaze mean here? Any relation with Danish "vissevasse"? > (deu. Wisch(i)-Wasch(i)) ~ vrøvl, vås ~ rubbish! > I read it in Reynke de Vos. > Grymbart sprack vort: »nu klaget de haze > Eyn mereken vnde eyne vysevaze. > In Danish we say "vissevasse' for "rubbish", like I tried to find the corresponding text in the Flemish version. The Flemish version is geographically positioned in the area of the "Land van Waas", the "Vier Ambachten" and the "Oudburg" (Ghent) areas. Nowadays the North-East of the Belgian province of East-Flanders and the East of "Zeeuws-Vlaanderen" in the Netherlands. I quote from when the story about the hare Cuwaert has just being being told (I presume this is the corresponding event referred to above). Some versions: 1. p. 86-87 in: Van den vos Reynaerde, hertaald door Karel Jonckheere, Met een inleiding van [..] Gysseling. 1979, Brussel & Amsterdam, Manteau, ISBN 90-223-0656-9, 313 pp. Bilingual: Old-Dutch - Dutch 1.a 173 Doe spranc op grimbert die das 174 Die reynaerds brueder sone was 175 Mit ere verbolgentliker tale 176 Her ysengrin en weti wale 177 Ende ets een out blispel 178 Viants mont seit selden wel 1b Toen sprong op Grimbert de das, die de zoon van Reinaerts broeder was, en sprak met een verbolgen blik: - "Heer Isemgrim, gij weet als ik, dat een oud spreekwoord leren doet: uit 's vijands mond klinkt zelden goed. 2. p. 18-19 in: Reinaert de vos, naar de oudste berijming uit de twaalfde eeuw, en opnieuw in 1834 berijmd door Jan Frans Willems, ingeleid door [..] Hellinga, 1964, Den Haag, Bert Bakker / Daamen N.V. derde druk (eerste druk: 1958) No ISBN, 229 pp. Bilingual: Old Dutch - 19th century Dutch 2a Doe spranc up Grimbeert die das, die Reinaerts broeder sone was, met ere verbolghentlike tale 'Here Isengrijn, men weet dat wale ende hets en out blijspel 'viants mont seit selden wel.' 2b. Hier sprong Grimbaert op, de das, Die een neef van Reinaert was, (Broeders kind), en riep verwoed: "Zo, Heer Isengrim! dat's goed! Maar wij weten 't daar en boven: Vijands mond zal zelden loven. 3. Van den Vos Reynaerde, Het Comburgs handschrift, 1991, Leuven Davidsfonds ISBN 90-6152-750-3, 248pp large size, Contains a reproduction in color of the manuscript, a diplomatic transcription and comments. We quote only from the transcription: 177 Doe spranc up Grinbert die das, 178 Die Reynaerts broed(er) sone was, 179 Met e(er)e v(er)bolghenlike tale: 180 'He(er)e Ysengrijn, me(n) weet dat wale 181 En(de) hets een hout blijspel: 182 Viants mont seit selde(n) wel. 4 Reynaert den Vos oft Der Dieren Oordeel Facsimile van het rond 1700 in de drukkerij van Hieronymus Verdussen vervaardigde volksboek. [.. Vanzandvoort ... Wackers ... Geeraedts...] 1988, Antwerpen & Apeldoorn, Bergmans ISBN 90-70959-16-X, 39 pp introduction 64 pp facsimile of an old printed version (not dated) in gothic character setting. Some characters are only partly printed, and this makes it difficult to read from a facsimile. Doen seyde Grimbaert den Das (Die Reynaers Neve was) met eenen grammen moet: Heer Ise- grim / dat is seer qualijck ghesproken/ men seydt ghemeyneijck s'vyan(?)d'(?)s verwijt / is haet ende nijt: [...] I annex the lemma "Wissewasje" from the WNT CD-ROM. Regards, Roger Annex: WISSEWASJE — WISJE WASJE, WISJEWASJE —, znw. onz., mv. -s. Redupliceerend klankwoord (vgl. viezevazen) met onduidelijke herkomst. Nfri. wissewasse, eng. wish-wash, wishy-washy; hd. wischiwaschi, wischwasch. Voor eenige oudere etymologische beschouwingen zie STOETT3 nº 2463 [1916]. In den vorm wissewasje met assimilatie van den inlaut uit wisjewasje. In het mv. van dezen laatsten vorm in de 17de e. soms met een s-suffix aan zoowel eerste als tweede lid. I) Als znw. 1) In toep. op onstoff. zaken: zaak van geringe waarde of belang, beuzeling, bagatel. Veelal in het mv. a) In het alg. || SEWEL [1691]. V. DALE [1872 ®]. — Men moet al dobbelen kruys om kruys, en 't eene so wat tegens 't andere stellen. Dan moeten wy, en dan sy altemet eens deur den hekel passeren, 't sal wel gaen, Treckje selven sulke wisjes wasjes niet eens aen, Kl. v.d. Pasquilm. 9 [1674]. Vergelijk eens onze Dichters met de Fransche in hun onderwerpen, 't zijn altemael wissewasjes daer de Fransche van zingen; alles is deftig daer de onze van handelen, oorlogen, veldslagen ... of Historiestukken, Br. a. R.M. v. Goens 1, 192 [1766]. Hij maakt dus ieder een wijs dat het niet om het lijf heeft, dat het is een wisje wasje, een bagatel, GALES, Twee Redev. 38 [1795]. Moest het niet ... de patiënt zijn, die zich beklaagde dat zijn arts hem voor alle wissewasjes een visite aanschreef? Hoe het zij, Dr. Deluw maakte zich gereed om naar dit wissewasje van mevrouw van Alpijn te gaan zien, BEETS, C.O. 115 [1839]. Dat de burgers van Jeruzalem nu eens elkaar moesten verstaan en ophouden met al die harrewarrerij om wisjewasjes, VERMEYLEN, Wand. J. 25 [1906]. De geachte afgevaardigde uit Assen heeft, sprekende over de simulatie, het voorgesteld, alsof ik zou willen, dat de arbeider voor elk „wissewasje” naar den dokter zou moeten loopen en zich ziek melden, Hand. St.-Gener. 1910-'11, Tw. K., 2437 a. b) Uitlating of woorden met weinig inhoud, waarde of belang; kletspraatje. Ook in toep. op sterk vormelijk of complimenteus taalgebruik met pejoratieve beteekenisnuances als ‘gekunsteld’, ‘niet oprecht gemeend’ e.d. en dan zooveel als: fraaiigheidje, mooi praatje; gekheidje. || MARIN [1701]. — Dat men dan alle lange klause schout ..., Men kan, mit al die wisjes wasjes, niet an 't end, van de zaak, komen; Op veul zins en weinig woorden word altijd goe acht enomen, Daar dat lang teemen de Auditores (bij een tooneelstuk) maar verdrietig maakt, GRAMSBERGEN, Hart. v. P. B 1 rº [1650]. Dat de ziele, dat edelste deel der menschen, daer mede (t.w. met „een stil bederf”) bezet en besmet is, dat en zijn geen wisse-wasjes; gheen praetjes, van over end' te slapen, DE BRUNE, Bank. 2, 8 [1658]. Wil je Fransch spreeken, spreek Fransch, maar met volk dat in die Taal is bedreeven. Maar als je Hollandsch spreekt, laat die wisjes wasjes dan weg, BERNAGIE, Belach. Jonker 26 [1684]. Ik vermaan je, laat je niet door wisje wasjes, en schoone beloften blinden, BERNAGIE, Debauchant 10 [1686]. „Gy denkt zeker dat ik dry jaren lang op een fransch pensionnaet ben geweest om onbeleefd en bot te blyven? Die jonge heer is eene kennis van my ....” „Wel, wel, Siska! Zyt gy niet beschaemd om zoo veel wisje-wasjes te maken met den zoon van uw vaders baerdkrabber?” CONSC., Siska v. R. 83 [1844]. — In een toep. waarbij wsch. door verkorting slechts het eerste lid werd aangewend. || Gisteren seyde mij Mary, dat hij veel wisjes met haer elcke reys maeckte, en haer geseght had: Wil you go along with me? I have a great deale of money, C. HUYGENS Jr., Journ. 2, 471 [1695]. c) Twist, oneenigheid van veelal geringe beteekenis; geharrewar. Vaak in de verb. wissewasjes maken, twist verwekken, twisten. || V. DALE [1872 ®]. — Gij, Pieter, moet uwe Driften beteugelen, en om verder geen wisjewasjes te hebben als wij aan Boord zijn, zult gij uw Beminde het Mans kleed, dat voor Lodewijk was geschikt ter hand stellen, N. Alm. v. Louw en Krelis [1774]. De baljuw (was) door P. F. „getergdt en gesegd zoo door W. d. L. als door W. V. ... neem het er nog eens af, en die beyde ook geraden waren geene wissewasjes meer te maken, bedreygde het er te zullen laten afhalen”, SMIT, Regentendagb. 538 [aangeh. woorden 1785]. Om alle wissewasje voor te koomen, heb ik Dominé afgeraaden aan Professor te schryven, WOLFF en DEKEN, Leev. 5, 269 [1785]. Hij zoekt altijd wisjewasjes te maken, il cherche toujours � susciter des querelles, KRAMERS, Ned.-Fr. Wdb. [1862]. d) In de verb. (een) wissewasje(s) bakken bij, met (zekere vrouw), een liefdesverhouding of avontuurtje met haar hebben. Sinds lang veroud. || Ik (zeyd Helena) bid ook aen u mijn gast! Gewaardigt u, dat gy na dese sluyer tast! Ik hebse self gemaekt; en droeg die als een dasje, Doe juyst, als Paris, by my, 't eerste wisjewasje Quam backen; en ik droegse naderhant niet weer, V. RUSTING 1, 628 [1693]. Een darde soorte van den uwen, Heeft sich bemoeyt, om, voor sijn lijf, Een schone jonge vrou te huuwen; En dan verhuurde hy hymlijk, 't wijf, Om wisjewasjes mee te bakken; En sy, sy is'er mee vergult: So wort het horenbeest sijn sakken, En haar het onderlijf gevult, 2, 3, 173 [1698]. 2) In toep. op stoff. zaken: zaak van geringe waarde, kleinigheid. Specifieker ook: klein geschenk, snuisterij. Veelal in het mv. || De Konstapel ... zag aan de overzyde van de rivier een' oude vrouw, die op eene allerjammerlykste wyze weende .... Ten langen lesten werd zy een weinig bedaarder, bood hem haar hand aan en beval dat hem de twee varkens zouden gegeven worden: tot erkentenis wilde hy haar de waarde dubbel daar voor wedergeven, maar zy wilde zelfs het geringste wisjewasje niet aannemen, HAWKESWORTH, Reizen 87 [1774]. Dewijl het Betje's jaardag is, heb ik haar zo wat wisjewasjes van kanten, en linten, naar de mode gekocht, WOLFF en DEKEN, Wildsch. 3, 85 [1793]. De mensch is overal zoo gemaakt, dat hij zich zoekt te verheffen, de een boven den ander. Dit bragt de Koningen en Vorsten op den inval van dit huismiddel; ten einde de gunstelingen of verdienstvolle mannen te betaalen met linten en wisjewasjes, V. WOENSEL, Rusl. 296 [1804]. Verzoek haar, die breuk tusschen haar gemaal en u weêr te heelen, en ik zet al wat ik bezit tegen een wisjewasjen, zoo zy niet u nog meer in gunst brengt dan te voren, V. LENNEP, Poët. 11, 251 [1854]. Het verblijf hier is vrij eentonig en toch zou ik de plaats met weemoed verlaten. Men raakt gehecht aan zijn huis, honden (4), apen (3), kippen (nooit geteld) en andere wissewasjes die de kern van het leven blijken te zijn, V.D. TUUK, Pen in Gal 138 [1871]. 3) In toep. op pers. Veroud. maar nog gewest. a) Iem. met weinig benul; dom, stom persoon; sukkel. || Zoo dra als die nette diertjes door haar strikken, krullen, lonken, en quikken, den een of den anderen in haar net ... gevangen, en een kind twee of drie om de ooren hebben, zyn het de oolykste slooven, vuilste wisjewasjes, regte sleeplendens, en de onnutste taddens, die men met geen tang aan zoude tasten, V. SPAAN, Louwtje v. Z. 15 [1700]. Kees. Dag Waaltje, met jou Kermiskasje. Rarekiek. Dag dromm', brui heen, jou wissewasje, V. HOVEN, H. Kermis 31 [1715]. E. Och, moeder lief, 'k ben immers zoet. R. Is 't myn schuld, dat ik kakken moet? C. Die dorst heeft, mag die niet eens drinken? Cristyn (moeder van E., R., en C.). ... Ik raak voorwaar myn zinnen kwyt, Met deze kleuters en pistasjes, Een trits bescheeten wisjewasjes, ALEWIJN, J. Los 12 [1721]. Wat, djanter! wat is het dan? .... wissewasjen als ik ben! ik die geloofde zoo wel in het menschelyk hart te konnen lezen; ik, die zoo veel zag en ondervond toen ik acht jaren en zeven maenden als dragonder in oostenrykschen dienst was — ik zou my hier misgist hebben? WILLEMS, Nal. 208 [1811]. b) (Antw. en Brab.) Pers. met een onstandvastig karakter; veranderlijk, lichtzinnig, onbezonnen mensch. || Wiezewaasje, ... lichtzinnig, veranderlijk, onbezonnen mensch, SCHUERM. [1870]. CORN.-VERVL. [1903]. II) Als tusschenw. 4) Als uitroep ter uitdrukking dat men het oneens is met wat iem. doet of zegt of dit wil relativeeren. Veroud. || Wat redenen ick sprack, ick hoorde niet uyt Jasje Als tut, tut, wisje wasje: In 't ende wierd' ick gramm, en stiet hem in een plasje; Doe seide ick op mijn' beurt, gaet henen, wiss je wass je, HUYGENS 2, 243 [1655]. Daer was bij dit schip noch een lootsschuyt, die mede ordonneerde aenstonts van boort aff te steecken, waer op dito makelaer Rietvelt tegens den lootz sey, „wissie wassie blijff jey hier maer bij ons, daer is niet een bruy aen gelegen”, Verbaal Amb. Wassenaar-Duiv. e.a. 96 [1685]. Wisje wasje, al lang genoeg gespeeld, Laat ons wat ander vermaak neemen, BERNAGIE, Debauchant 32 [1686]. D. Myn vertrek van daag, dat had zy niet verwagt. R. Is het dan niet van daag, zo laat het zyn te nagt. Kom, wisje, wasje, 'k zal die boodschap wel bestellen, En in haar droefheid vaak een uurtje gaan verzellen, V. HALMAEL 3, 3, 29 [1711]. Wisjewasje! ik zou 'er eens meê lachen, Nonsence! I would laugh at it, SEWEL [1766]. Samenst. Wissewasjepraatje, beuzelpraatje. || De laatstgenoemde (kroeggasten) (begonden) zoo wat baggatellen, knapuilen, en wisjewasjespraatjes voor den dag te brengen, alleenlyk om met eerstgenoemde Kinkels aan den Wartel of questie te geraken, V. SPAAN, Louwtje v. Z. 140 [1702]. Ik lach wat met je wisje wasje praatjes, V. EFFEN, Spect. 2, 222 [1732]. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 5 16:41:58 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 08:41:58 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.05 (02) [A/E/German] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: denis dujardin Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (08) [E] As I might have mentioned before, "Snakkn en Bitn" is a Westflemish expression, which describes a person who talks in a very agressive way and who allways looks angry. So "snakkn" in westflemish, only remains in a very pejorative connotation. "Afsnakkn" f.e. meaning answering in a very impolite way, denis dujardin kortrijk westflanders ---------- From: ezinsser at tiscali.co.za Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (10) [E] Hi all, I'm intrigued that the Afrikaans form _bakvissie_ for an immature giggly young girl seems so similar to the Low Saxon _backwaschen_ (bagvaske). Any connection? Regards, Elsie Zinsser ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Here's to another day of etymological frivolities. :) Denis (above): > "Afsnakkn" f.e. meaning answering in a very impolite way, In Lowlands German (where _snakken_ now just means 'to talk' without an inherent negative tone), _af-snakken_ () occurs with the reflexive pronoun _sik_ and in this combination means something like 'to confer with each other', 'to plan together', 'to come to an agreement'. And there is the verb _mit-snakken_ (). (_Mit_ 'with'). It has two meanings. It can denote 'to participate in a dialogue', 'to attend a meeting and participate in the proceedings or discussions'. The other meaning is 'to chat up', 'to coax (by means of words)', 'to talk someone into following', usually with sexual intentions, especially in the context of sexual preditors, (potential) child abusers. We use the verb _mits(ch)nacken_ and the noun _Mits(ch)nacker_ in Missingsch and in other North German dialects as well. When we were children we would be constantly told to beware of _Mits(ch)nacker(s)_. We weren't told what they would do to us, just sensed that we would disappear if we went with them. So to us a _Mits(ch)nacker_ was a sort of bogeyman specializing in daytime abductions (as opposed to the _Bu(h)mann_ or _Butzemann_, the nocturnal counterpart). Later I was told that there was the occasional _Mits(ch)nackerin_, a female version, that a certain neighbor was one of them, and that I should not run any errands for her if she asked. This may have been simply silly _snak_ to ostracize her (which wasn't uncommon regarding "older" unmarried women), but she did use to "hang out the window" in her underwear, and the older boys would exchange knowing grins with each other when they saw her or whispered about her ... Her "official" neighborhood name was "Tippeltante" ("Auntie Patter", mostly because she always wore stiletto-heel shoes, and partly inspired by LS _tippeln_ 'to roam' and _tippelbrouder_ 'bum', 'hobo', 'tramp'). I am sure other North Germans on the list know these words (_mits(ch)nacken_ and _Mits(ch)nacker_) from their childhoods. Elsie (above): > I'm intrigued that the Afrikaans form _bakvissie_ for an immature giggly > young girl seems so similar to the Low Saxon _backwaschen_ (bagvaske). I don't think there is a connection. However, I'm pretty sure that Afrikaans _bakvissie_ (which must sound like "(little) baked/baking fish") is related to German _Backfisch_ (sounding like "baked/baking fish"), denoting 'female teenager'. I used to wonder about the derivation of this word. Now it seems that it is a Lowlands Saxon (Low German) loan. One of the sources I consulted (http://www.libri.de/shop/content/leseproben/leseproben/leseprobe_5872707.ht ml) had this to say: "Ein Backfisch ist ein Fisch, der, weil zu klein und mager, ins Wasser zurückgeworfen wird (back = zurück). Schon vor der modernen Englischwelle wurden junge Mädchen, die noch nicht im heiratsfähigen Alter waren, häufig »Backfische« genannt. Heute ist diese Bezeichnung nur noch gelegentlich gebräuchlich. Unter »Backfisch« verstehen viele das, was der Backfisch auch schon immer war: ein panierter Fisch, der in der Pfanne gebraten (gebacken) wird." In other words, a _Backfisch_ (in this particular context, not as a dish) is an undersized (and under-aged) fish that would be thrown back into the water. _Bak_ () in the sense of 'back' (and also 'against the wind') is apparently specific to the dialects of Hamburg. Hamburg dialects are known for their large number of (older) English loanwords that entered the language mostly by way of seafarer and merchant jargons. So, my guess is that German got it from Hamburg LS (most likely from the dialect of the fishing community Finkwarder/Finkenwerder), and the German word entered Afrikaans in the form of a calque (i.e., loan translation) with the "obligatory" Afrikaans diminutive thrown in for good measure. Alternatively, LS, German and Afrikaans independently got the respective words from English, because some sources mention English "backfish" as the source. I am not aware of such a word, though it is possible that it is or was used in certain English dialects. But it is also possible that German etymologists did what they often do: skip a step or two when an English word or component came from or via LS. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (12) [E] Ron wrote: > P.S.: By the way, when I was a child (which seems like eons ago) grown-ups > would use German _frei_ or LS _vrey_ 'free' to mean 'risqué', 'adults-only', > etc. For example, a certain movie or TV show was considered "too free" for > us kids to watch (which meant that we had to go to bed); i.e., it was not > PG13 (which at that time was just about 75% of movie and TV offerings). I > haven't come across this usage lately. Was this one of my uptight clan's > idiosyncrasies, or are some of you familiar with it too? The word that is commonly used these days (and as long as I can remember) is "freizügig". Maybe your folks used "frei" as an abbreviation because they considered "freizügig" itself a bad word... this is roughly the same use of "frei" as in the phrase "ich bin so frei...", meaning, "I shall take the liberty of...". Speaking of uptight clans... when i was little, I was taught by my equally prudish family that the products that emerge in the bathroom are called "en gros" and "en detail". I fell over laughing when I was around seven years old and saw a merchant advertise selling "en gros and en detail"... [Gabriele Kahn] ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 5 21:45:14 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:45:14 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.05 (04) [D/E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. Subject: Morphology It may be a stupid question to linguists on the list, but as a non-linguist I'm wondering if the "weak" genitive on "-en", or similar, is occurring in other Lowland languages. e.g. in (old-fashioned) Dutch (both singular): - In de naam des HerEN - In de naam des VaderS In both cases the noun is masculine, but the flexion is different. cf. also the names of two adjacent municipalities (in South Limburg): 's-HerENelderen and GenoelSelderen. Below a text about name-giving scanned from: "Gedenkboek Nicolas en Jan Vrancken, Berg-Tongeren", 1967, 136 pp. Thanks ahead for all comments. Regards, Roger -- Annex [p. 107] De Familienaam Vrancken door A.STEVENS Licentiaat Germaanse Filologie De familienaam Vranken is typisch Limburgs in zijn uitgang. De uitgang -en van de genitief van de zogezegd "zwak" verbogen zelfstandige naamwoorden, vinden wij terug in een hele groep Limburgse familienamen, die zoals Vranken, zijn afgeleid van een vroeger of nu nog gebruikte voornaam (1). Vranken, evenals de in spelling, maar niet in betekenis afwijkende vormen Vrancken, Francken, Franken, betekent dus : (die) van Vrank, of, zo men wil, de zoon van Vrank. Vrank of Frank is een voornaam die afgeleid is uit de volksnaam "Frank". Deze voornaam komt reeds vroeg voor, nl. reeds in de 6de eeuw als de naam van een bisschop van Aix in Frankrijk. De naam wordt [p. 108] nu trouwens nog gebruikt onder invloed van de Engelse en Duitse naamgeving. Frank is weer een geliefde voornaam geworden. Wat de oorsprong en de betekenis van de stamnaam "Frank" betreft, kunnen we enkel vaststellen dat de zin en afkomst, van deze naam niet met zekerheid is bekend : er bestaan een drietal interpretaties, die we hier opgeven voor wat ze waard zijn. Eerste uitleg: Francos - hoc est feros (= de wilden, ongetemden). Tweede uitleg: stam verwant niet Oudnoors frakkr = promtus (= vlug, slagvaardig, vastberaden). Derde uitleg : stam verwant met Oudnoors frakka. Angelsaksische franca = werpspeer. (1). De familienaam Vranken betekent dus van Vrank (Frank), hij is ontstaan in combinatie als "Vranken Jan", met de betekenis Jan van Vrank = Jan, zoon van Vrank(2). ----- [p. 107] (1) De genitief van de zwak verbogen zelfstandige naamwoorden ging in het Nederlands vroeger uit op -en : zo zei men : In de naam des Heren (= In de naam van de Heer) ; 's-Herenelderen (= het Elderen van de heer (Willem) ; genitief van het "zwak" verbogen substantief "heer". De genitief (bezitsvorm) van de zgn. "sterk" verbogen zelfstandige naamwoorden kreeg de uitgang -(e)s : bv. : In de naam des Vaders en des Zoons en des Heiligen Geestes. Vooral in Limburg treft men een hele reeks familienamen aan met de "zwakke" uitgang "-en", familienamen die in westelijke streken (Brabant, Antwerpen), de "sterke" uitgang "-s" hebben. Wij denken hierbij aan familienamen als Daenen (v. Daan = Daniel), Rutten (v. Rut = Rutger), Daerden (v. Medaard), Coonen (v. Koen, Koonraad), Gielen (v. Giel = Michiel?), Gijsen (v. Gijs, Gijsbrecht), Merken (v. Merk, Mark, Marcus), Roebben (v. Roeb, Robrecht) en vele andere meer. In Brabant gaan vele namen van deze reeks op -s uit: Daens, Gils, Merckx, en ook Vranckx, Vranks. [p. 108] (1 ) Vrank, frank (en net Duitse "frank") als bijvoeglijk naamwoord in de betekenis van "vrij" schijnt aan het Franse franc" te zijn ontleend : in deze laatste taal zou het woord oorspronkelijk "Frankische Edelman" hebben betekend in de Merovingische periode met zijn vele "onvrije". (2) De mening als zou de "-s" in familienamen als Brabantse "Vranks" en in alle andere Nederlandse familienamen op -s (Peters, Jans, enz.) teruggaan op het woordje "zoon" is absoluut verkeerd en wordt door geen enkele naamkundige nog aanvaard. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Morphology Roger, In Lowlands Saxon of Germany, the old genitive construction you are talking about is obsolete, can only be found in a few archaic sayings, sounding very "biblical" ("in den naam des Heren"). The two native ways of indicating possession are "A syn/er B" ("God syn naam") and "de/dat B vun/von/van A" (de naam vun God"), though (possibly under German and/or Scandinavian influence) the alternative "As B" ("Gods naam") is occasionally used nowadays. Below are a few examples from Middle Saxon that show the construction you are talking about. (Ryghe = Riga, Revele = Reval/Tallin, Lubeke = Lübeck) *** "do dyt de borghere vornemen inder stat, se quemen tho der brucghen unde wolden des mesters knapen thohouwen." [Albrecht van Bardowiks, 1298] "dat wi des macht hebben, dat wy se velighen moghen vor juch unde de juwe, dat moghe wy bewysen myt des mesters openen breven." [Albrecht van Bardowiks, 1298] "'gy heren, denket dar an, dat wy hebbet des mesters openen breyf, unde dat wi sint ghesant tho ju unde tho en dor eyndrachdicheyt an beyden sciden." [Albrecht van Bardowiks, 1298] "Hyr na thohant besamnede sych des byschopes voghet van Leale, her Helmolt Lode, eyn wert ryddere, van Revele myt des byschopes mannen unde myt den Oseleren." [Albrecht van Bardowiks, 1298] "In deme anderen somere hir bevoren [1297] buweden de borghere van der Ryghe eyne brucghen over dat water, ..." [Albrecht van Bardowiks, 1298] "hyr van huf sich grot cummer unde jamer tuschen den broderen van deme Dudisghen hus unde der stat van der Ryghe, tho Liflande unde over al de lant." [Albrecht van Bardowiks, 1298] "hyr under untsegheden de brodere der stat tho Ryghe." [Albrecht van Bardowiks, 1298] "Indheme namen der hileghen dreuoldigheit. van ghodes bort ouer dusent. vnde twe hundert. vnde vere vnde neghenttich iaar leet dhit buch scriuen har Albrecht. van Bardewich to dher stades behuf. Bi desen tiden was Borghere mester der stades to Lubeke her. Hinrich Steneke. vnde her Bernart van Kusuelde. In dessen siluen tiden waren kemere der stades to Lubeke her Iohan de Olde her Brun van Warendorp." [Stadsrecht van Lübek, 1294] "it si van des sones haluen ofte uan der dochter ..." [Stadsrecht van Lubeke, 1294] "dat schal bliuen bi des mannes eruen." [Stadsrecht van Lubeke, 1294] *** As for names ("Vranken Jan," etc.), this used to be found in Middle Saxon also and probably remained in a few dialects till recently. I know that something like this is still common in Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch) to this day (I think something like "Thiesses Fraunz" for "Franz Thiessen"). Perhaps our more knowledgeable members could correct/explain this. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sun Mar 7 20:30:25 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 12:30:25 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Terminology" 2004.03.04 (01) [E/French] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. Subject: LL-L "Terminology" 2004.01.25 (05) [E] > From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. > Subject: Language mixtures > Some quotations from a case sentenced on Wednesday: Thanks for all replies. What's wondering me in this, is that quite some Latin expressions used in Anglo-Saxon law, are not shared with continental Roman law or it's heritage. I'm just wondering whether or not they are stardard Latin or rather Anglo-Saxon constructions in medieval Latin. I repeat at first my examples, folowed by their UK definition in Osborn's Concise Law Dictionary, sevent edition by Roger Bird, 1986, London, Sweet & Maxwell, ISBN 0-421-29680-1, 390 pp. > If a State deprives a citizen of trial by jury or passes an __ex post > facto__ law, [..] not in Osborn, but common language, not dealt with below. > Brief __amici curiae__ of Anti-Defamation League, et al. filed. > Brief __amicus curiae__ of National Education Association filed. Osborn: amicus curiae. [A friend of the court.] One who calls the attention of the court to some point of law or fact which would appear to have been overlooked; usually a member of the Bar. On occasion the law officers are requested or permitted to argue a case in which they are not instructed to appear. > __CERTIORARI__ --SUMMARY DISPOSITION Osborn: certiorari. A writ directed to an inferior court of record, commanding it to "certify" to the Queen in the High Court of Justice some matter of a judicial character. It was used to remove civil causes or indictments from inferior courts of record into the High Court, that they may be better tried, or if there has been abuse or error, re-tried. It has been replaced by Judicial Review (q. v.). > __MANDAMUS__ DENIED > The petitions for writs of __mandamus__ are denied. Osborn: mandamus. [We command.] A high prerogative writ which issued in the King's name from the High Court of Justice on application to the Kings Bench Division to some person or body to compel the performance of a public duty. It was replaced by an order of Mandamus which is now comprised in the procedure known as Judicial Review. Applications for judicial review are made to the Divisional Court. See JUDICIAL REVIEW. I'm not sure these UK definitions have a somehow similar content in the US. For finding eventual use on the continent I checked several sources. (for "mandamus" I obviously also checked for the verb "mandare"; I'm not listing though occurances of variants of the noun "mandate") Dutch (B + Nl) Constant De Koninck: Glossarium van Latijnse en Romeinse rechtstermen, 1993, Antwerpen & Apeldoorn, Maklu, ISBN 90-6215-378-X, xi + 449 pp. amicus curiae: not listed certiorari: not listed mandamus: not listed Dutch (B) E. Dirix e.a., De Valks Juridisch Woordenboek, 2001, Antwerpen Intersentia, ISBN 90-9095-148-1, 431 pp. amicus curiae: not listed certiorari: not listed mandamus: not listed Dutch (Nl) N.E. Algra e.a., Verwijzend en verklarend Juridisch woordenboek, 12e druk, 2001, Groningen, Martinus Nijhoff, ISBN 90-6890-525-2, xi + 548 pp. amicus curiae: not listed certiorari: not listed mandamus: not listed French (France) G. Cornu, Vocabulaire juridique, 4e édition, 2003, Paris, Presses universitaires de France, ISBN 2-13-053703-0, xxi + 951 pp. amicus curiae: listed as Anglo-Saxon, quote: Amicus curiae Expression latine signifiant littéralement "ami de la Cour" empruntée au droit anglais pour désigner la qualité de consultant extraordinaire et d'informateur bénévole en laquelle la juridiction saisie invite une personnalité � venir � l'audience afin de fournir, en présence de tous les intéressés, "toutes les observations propres � éclairer" le juge (Paris, 6 juillet 1988 ; comp. Ncpc, a. 232), l'opinion de Famicus convié ne liant pas le juge, � l'instar de l'avis de l'*expert ou du *consultant (NCPC, a. 246), mais pouvant, � la différence de cet avis (a. 238), porter sur des questions de droit (extension prétorienne de la *consultation ordinaire, laquelle peut porter sur toute question technique, a. 256, cette mission hors série peut s'appliquer � des pratiques et interprétations professionnelles, � des règles déontologiques, etc.) ; parfois nommé au Canada « intervenant bénévole » ou « désintéressé », ou encore « allié du tribunal ». certiorari: not listed mandamus: not listed Roland & Boyer, Locutions latines du droit français, 4e édition,¨1998, Paris, Litec, ISBN 2-7111-2913-6, xvii + 566 pp. amicus curiae: listed as Anglo-Saxon, quote: AMICUS CURIAE / Ami de la Cour Personnalité invitée par la Cour, en dehors de tout texte l'y habilitant, en vue de fournir toutes observations propres � l'éclairer dans sa recherche d'une solution. Cette mesure d'instruction innomée et inédite, en vigueur dans les pays anglo-saxons et devant la Cour européenne de justice, a été inaugurée par la cour de Paris en 1988 � propos de l'établissement de l'annuaire d'un barreau devant mentionner les activités dominantes de ses membres ; elle a reçu la consécration de la Cour suprême qui a souhaité, avant de se prononcer sur la licéité de la maternité de substitution, entendre une communication du président du Comité national d'éthique pour les sciences de la vie et de la santé. L'amicus curiae n'est ni un témoin, ni un expert, car il ne vient pas s'expliquer sur des faits ; il n'est pas davantage un conciliateur ou un médiateur, puisque son rôle n'est pas de rapprocher les points de vue antagonistes ; il n'est pas, non plus, un consultant au sens de l'article 256 du Nouveau Code de procédure civile, n'ayant pas � conduire d'investigations sur une question purement technique. Il s'agit d'une autorité appelée, par suite de son expérience incontestée et de sa haute valeur morale, � enrichir les débats et � offrir une vue prospective sur une question qui dépasse de loin le cas d'espèce. certiorari: not listed mandamus (just in the context of the execution of given sentences, and actually rather in a "French" form) MANDAMUS / Ordonnons La formule traduit le pouvoir d'injonction inhérent � la fonction juridictionnelle. Relève de l'imperium, non de la jurisdictio. Tout jugement se termine par la formule exécutoire : « La République française mande et ordonne � tous huissiers de justice sur ce requis, de mettre ledit jugement (ou arrêt) � exécution, aux procureurs généraux et aux procureurs de la République près les tribunaux de grande instance, d'y tenir la main, � tous commandants et officiers de prêter main-forte lorsqu'ils en seront légalement requis ». Nombreux sont les autres cas en matière civile où se retrouve le mandamus sous la forme de l'injonction: injonction de produire une pièce, injonction de payer, injonction de faire... En procédure pénale, le mandamus se rencontre, francisé, dans les ordres délivrés par le juge d'instruction � l'encontre de telle personne : mandat d'amener, mandat d'arrêt, mandat de dépôt. En comptabilité publique, le mandatement, dit aussi ordonnancement, se définit comme l'acte administratif par lequel l'autorité qualifiée donne au comptable public, conformément aux résultats de la liquidation (vérification de la réalité de la dette et fixation du montant de la dépense). l'ordre de payer la dette de l'organisme public (D. 29 déc. 1962, art. 3 1 ). Swedish S. Bergström e.a., Juridikens termer, Nionde upplagan, 2002, Stockholm, Almqvist & Wiksell, ISBN 91-47-05122-1, 212 pp. amicus curiae: not listed certiorari: not listed mandamus: not listed S. Martinger, Norstedts Juridiska Ordbok, Juridik från A till Ö, Uplaga 5:1, 203, Stockholm, Norstedts Juridik AB, ISBN 91-39-00927-0, 198 pp. amicus curiae: not listed certiorari: not listed mandamus: not listed S. Melin, Juridikens begrepp, andra upplagan, 2002, Uppsala, Iustus Förlag, ISBN 91-7678-517-3, 431 pp. amicus curiae: not listed certiorari: not listed mandamus: not listed This does not mean that the Swedish have nothing in Latin. I list a couple of expressions from Melin: Majus includit minus: Det större omsluter det mindre [...] Mala fides: ond tro Mala fides superveniens: Tillkommande ond tro Malefactor: Missdådare The few words I selected last week, randomly from sites related to the US Supreme Court, show, I think, the Anglo-Saxon environment got it's own Latin developped, and this eventually included the creation of new vocabulary and expressions. Am I right? Regards, Roger ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sun Mar 7 20:46:36 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 12:46:36 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.04 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.05 (04) [D/E/LS] > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Morphology > > In Lowlands Saxon of Germany, the old genitive construction you are talking > about is obsolete Hi Ron, Thanks for your reply. What I had really in mind was that I have the impression the "weak" form (cf. German des MenschEN) became earlier obsolete in lowlands varieties than the "strong" form (cf. German: des MannES). A selection of examples in old Dutch, choosen from the lists published in A. van Loey, Middelnederlandse Spraakkunst, I. Vormleer, 1973, Groningen, Tjeenk Willink Strong flexion (-s) / masculine (samples): arm avont baert berch biskop... Strong flexion (-s) / neuter (samples): aer (korenaar) been berd (plank) blat broot... Weak flexion (-en) / masculine (samples): ape are (arend) bake (ham) balke bere... Weak flexion (-en) / neuter (samples): aensichte antwoorde armoede bedde beelde... So, am I right that the weak forms became obsolete first, or is this a false impression of mine? Regards, Roger ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Morphology Hi, Roger! Perhaps I am now catching on, slowly. > What I had really in mind was that I have the impression the "weak" form > (cf. German des MenschEN) > became earlier obsolete in lowlands varieties than the "strong" form > (cf. German: des MannES). I have a feeling that that doesn't hold tru in the case of (Lowlands) Saxon ("Low German"). "Strong"-form constructions with which Middle Saxon abounds (e.g., _de dans des dodes_ "dance of death," 'dance macabre') do not seem to survive in todays dialects, while some of those using "weak" forms do survive in certain registers. Nowadays this would be something like _dey danss vun d'n dood_ or _d'n dood syn danss_, besides compounded _dey dodendanss_. On the other hand, Middle Saxon would have something like _it/dat leven des menschen_, etc., while _dat leven vun d'n minschen_ or _d'n minschen syn leven_ are nowadays still possible, though _it/dat leven vun d'n minsch_ or _d'n minsch syn leven_, besides compounded _it/dat minschenleven_, are normal-register expressions. Am I now on track with you? Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 8 04:53:29 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 20:53:29 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.04 (03) [E/S/Latin] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Brian Holton Subject: Help needed Hi I've been asked to translate some Latin into "17th century Scots": the text as I have it is this - Salvatore Mundi Salvanos,qui per crucem et sanguinem redem est inos. I think the second line may be corrupted, or there may be some late Latin I don't recognise. My best crack (1st draft) would be: O Warld's Salvator sauf us aa, wha throu bluid an corse redeemit us. 17th century spelling (?): O Warldis Salvatour sauf us all, quha throuch bluid an corse redeimit us. any ides? (sorry about the typographical guddle) brian ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 8 17:50:22 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 09:50:22 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.08 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Philip Ernest Barber Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.04 (03) [E/S/Latin] This is the famous medieval prayer: [O] salvator mundi, qui per crucem tuum et sanguinem pretiosum tuum nos redemptisti, salva nos... There are many musical setting of it as well. In the Anglican Book of Common Prayer(1662, tho the translation dates to 1549) (and presumably in Laud' s Liturgy for Scotland in 1637) it reads: "O Saviour of the world, who by thy Cross and precious Blood hast redeemed us, Save us, and help us, we humbly beseech thee, O Lord." ---------- From: Sandy Fleming Subject: "Help needed" [E] > From: Brian Holton > Subject: Help needed > > I've been asked to translate some Latin into "17th century Scots": the text > as I have it is this - > Salvatore Mundi Salvanos,qui per crucem et sanguinem redem est inos. Salvator mundi salva nos, qui per crucem et sanguinem redemisti nos. "O saviour of the world save us, who by thy cross and blood hast redeemed us". Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ---------- From: Heiko Evermann Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.04 (03) [E/S/Latin] Hi Brian, >I've been asked to translate some Latin into "17th century Scots": the text >as I have it is this - >Salvatore Mundi Salvanos,qui per crucem et sanguinem redem est inos. > I think the second line may be corrupted, or there may be some late Latin I >don't recognise. > A google search for "qui per crucem et sanguinem" (qutation marks included) leads to a number of sites with similar phrases: Salvator mundi, salva nos, *qui* *per* *Crucem* *et* *Sanguinem* tuum redemisti nos. So the line you gave us has *"salva nos" tun together * left out "tuum" * split redemisti and mixed up an i for an e (which did happen quite frequently as the pronunciation of short e and short i was similar). Regards, Heiko ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 8 20:16:16 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:16:16 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.08 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Fred van Brederode Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.05 (02) [A/E/German] From: ezinsser at tiscali.co.za Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (10) [E] Hi all, I'm intrigued that the Afrikaans form _bakvissie_ for an immature giggly young girl seems so similar to the Low Saxon _backwaschen_ (bagvaske). Any connection? Regards, Elsie Zinsser ---------- ........_Bak_ () in the sense of 'back' (and also 'against the wind') is apparently specific to the dialects of Hamburg. Hamburg dialects are known for their large number of (older) English loanwords that entered the language mostly by way of seafarer and merchant jargons. So, my guess is that German got it from Hamburg LS (most likely from the dialect of the fishing community Finkwarder/Finkenwerder), and the German word entered Afrikaans in the form of a calque (i.e., loan translation) with the "obligatory" Afrikaans diminutive thrown in for good measure. Regards, Reinhard/Ron Why not look for the obvious? Most words in Afrikaans have a direct link with Dutch words. Simple chance would make me look there first. Elsies Bakvissie is more than close to the Dutch word "Bakvis", meaning the same thing. The diminutive of which becomes "bakvissie" in many colloquial pronunciations. This still does not exclude the possibility the words origin to be in Northern Germany, but wouldn't it have travelled through Dutch to Afrikaans? Groetjes, Fred ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Thanks, Fred. Great point. I wasn't aware of _bakvis_ in Dutch. If it is a Lowlands Saxon (Low German) loan (directly or via German _Backfisch_), a direct English loan, or not a loan at all, yes, it would be one of the top contenders. However, (Standard) Dutch was only one of the main European sources for Afrikaans, mostly through official, bureaucratic and ecclesiastic use until Afrikaans officially gained autonomy and respect. On the spoken level, it was, at least in the early days, Zeelandic (Zeeuws) on which it seems to have been primarily based. Besides that there are of course English (because of English rule and domination), French (brought in by large Huguenot refugee groups) and German (due to large German-speaking immigrant groups that came to be absorbed largely into the Afrikaans-speaking population). And, beginning with the early days of European settlement in Southern Africa, among the "Dutch"- and "German"-speaking populations there were undoubtedly many Lowlands Saxon speakers, among which the ones from Germany (and its colonies) must have found that their native "dialect" came in handy when dealing with the "Dutch" of Southern Africa. So, yes, _bakvissie_ may well have entered Afrikaans from Dutch, but not necessarily so. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 8 23:48:52 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 15:48:52 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.08 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: "Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc." Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.04 (02) [E] > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Morphology > Hi, Roger! > Perhaps I am now catching on, slowly. > > What I had really in mind was that I have the impression the "weak" form > > (cf. German des MenschEN) > > became earlier obsolete in lowlands varieties than the "strong" form > > (cf. German: des MannES). > I have a feeling that that doesn't hold tru in the case of (Lowlands) Saxon > ("Low German"). > "Strong"-form constructions with which Middle Saxon abounds (e.g., _de dans > des dodes_ "dance of death," 'dance macabre') do not seem to survive in > todays dialects, while some of those using "weak" forms do survive in > certain registers. Nowadays this would be something like _dey danss vun d'n > dood_ or _d'n dood syn danss_,[...] > Am I now on track with you? Hi Ron, Thanks for replying. I didn't have the syntax in mind but just the suffix used for the flexion of the noun. For the use of "strong" and "weak", these words are used here similarely as the Germans qualify for the flexion of nouns. Strong: der Tag, der Kamm, das Jahr Weak: der Mensch, der Hase The weak "-en" suffix was apparently more often used in namegiving in the East, where the West (of Belgium) one rather used the strong flexion on "-s"; In Limburg a name could rather be: Jan Daenen In Brabant or in the Flanders the name would rather have been: Jan Daens. Jan van Daen or Jan Daenszoon could also also be technically correct, but one used rather and more frequently the flected genitive form for namegiving. The "van something" name forms generally refer to a placename rather than to an ancestor. Since DaenEN was maintained in Limburg, and since Limburg (due to closiness with Aachen-Köln) was a bit slower in giving up grammatical complexity, I was just wondering whether the "-en" suffix generally disappeared earlier than the "-s" suffix for flected nouns in Low German varieties for the flected genitive form (and eventually was replaced with "-s" for as long as the genitive flexion of the noun survived). Regards, Roger PS. In popular namegiving in Vliermaal (Belgian Limburg), in the fifties, the "popular" family name rather preceded the Christian name: (the "real" familyname was something legally frozen, generally hardly known) e.g. Cloesen Lemmeke: Little Lambert, sun of Klaas [Neven] e.g. Nolles Gus: August, sun of Arnold [Thijssen] This reversal was not applied for other forms of namegiving: e.g. Gra vande Velthin: Gerard from the Velthin farm. e.g. Dzjang vande Nögebonder: Jan from a specific nine "bunder" sized area. "Van" for ancestors occured when the ancestor was not born in the municipality. My grandfather was born in Hoeselt, so my fathers name became: Dzjef van Piër Tais, and mine: Rozjé van Dzjef van Piër Tais. My grandfather still lived in our house when I was born, so I guess this explains his continued presence in my namegiving. My family name Thijs is generally pronounced: Teis in Dutch Tais in local Limburgish Tüüs in German Tiess in French. In English they generally are so kind to ask how it is pronounced, but then the "Teis", as I give, is rather pronounced "Tais" anyway. So I don't care, since this is Limburgish after all. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 9 04:37:42 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:37:42 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.08 (04) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Brian Holton Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.08 (01) [E] thanks for all your help. I think there might be a wee problem here, as the 17thC was when Scots began to write in English - the example of Laud's prayer book is good one. Still an on, it wadna be richt ti say at written Scots wis deid, for it wisna: formal prose an court poetry mebbes went inti English first, but the'r a guid whein o things - letters, diaries, Burgh Court Books an siclike texts - at steys in Scots weill up ti the back -en o the 1600s. But the request comes from a theatre company in Glasgow, so presumably they want something with a Scots flavour - I'll send the modern spelling. aye brian ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 9 04:41:45 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:41:45 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.08 (05) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Jan Strunk Subject: Syntax Dear Low Saxon speakers, I am currently trying to write a paper on the possessive construction in Low Saxon. I would really appreciate if all Low Saxon speakers out there (no matter what dialect) could take some time to translate the following phrases for me. You can either send them to me jstrunk at stanford.edu directly and I will post a summary later or directly to the list. Leive Lüe, ek wöör ju groten dank weten wan ji een paor saken för mi översetten kunnen. Egaol wat för'n dialekt van't neddersassische ji ouk snackt... op de nedderlandsche of düütsche sied van de grens of ouk plautdietsch.... Ji könt er direkt nao mien adres hen stüern: jstrunk at stanford.edu of nao de list. Velen Dank! Here come the sentences: 1. My brother's horse is green. 2. I see her brother's horse. 3. His brother's horses are black. 4. I see their brother's horses. 5. This is his brother. This is his. 6. This is the man whose house we have seen. 7. These are their houses. These are theirs. 8. This is their country. This is theirs. 9. Do you know whose horse this is? 10. Whose horse this is is very important. 11. These men's horses are black. 12. The woman who I saw yesterday's horse is dead. 13. This is my dog's house. This one's is over there. Some of the sentences may sound a little odd. But I don't want to win a poetic contest. I need them as data for a linguistics paper. So, thank you very much again. Jan Strunk jstrunk at stanford.edu strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de ---------- From: Jan Strunk Subject: Syntax Hi, this is a follow-up to my last email. For those Low Saxon speakers among you who consider answering my query in the last email, please only read on after you have answered it. Because otherwise the questions in this mail might influence you and the data I get. Damn linguists, always have to make everything so complicated! If you take the time to answer, I would be very grateful. And you can get famous by appearing in my thank you note ;-) Please write to: jstrunk at stanford.edu Leive Lüe, dat is de twede fraog över possessivkonstruktschionen in't neddersassische. Wenn ji noch nich op miene eerste mail antert hebt un dat villicht noch daon wult, denn antert bitte eerst un lest denn düsse mail wieder... De fraogen in düsse mail hier kunnen ju villicht unseker maken... De verdorrigten spraokwetenschaplers mott alls ümmer sou komplezeert maken! Dat wöör bannig nett van ju wenn ji mi antern dään. Schrieft eenfach an: jstrunk at stanford.edu. Please don't let yourselves be disturbed by my orthography. So I am asking about "ehr" (eng. her) and in your dialect it is "iähr" or "har" please just substitute your own variant! Stört ju nich an mien schriefwies! Sett ju eegne utspraok in, tem bispill "har" anstatt van "ehr", un so wieder... Un hier sünd de fraogen: Please translate: 1. This is Peter's book. Peter's is bigger than Anna's. 2. This is Peter and Anna's book. Peter and Anna's is bigger than this girl's. 3. Where is Peter's son? I only see Hinnerk's. Please try to answer the following questions: 1. Can you say things like: "den sien book" (meaning "the book of this person"). 2. If you can say: "de ehr book", does this mean "the book of this woman" or "the book of these people" or both? 3. Can you say: "he sien book" meaning "his book"? or maybe "em sien book"? 4. Can you say "se ehr book"? What does it mean? (Is it only the polite form, i.e. German "Sie"?) 5. Can you say things like "mien sien book"? If so, only for joking or in serious conversation? 6. Can you say "Peter sien un Hinnerk sien Hus sünd schön"? If so, how many houses are there? 7. Can you say "Peter sien Hus un Hinnerk sien is schön?" 8. If you use "jümehr" for eng. "their" in your dialect, can you say: "de Lüüd jümehr hüüs sünd schöön."? Velen Dank! Beste gröten ut'n sonnigen Kalifornien! Jan Strunk jstrunk at stanford.edu strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 9 17:00:12 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:00:12 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.09 (01) [E/Danish] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Help needed [E/Danish] Goedemiddag, Yesterday I received the following question from someone from Danmark. Does anyone know the etymology of the Danish word 'kovirke' and is it possible that this word has Saxon, Frisian or maybe even Dutch roots? Regards, Mathieu -------------------------------- Jeg er cand mag i dansk og historie og er meget interesseret i forhold mellem trafik og bysamfund. Jeg har netop set i "The Railway Magazine" at man i år har 400 års jubilæum for "rail traffic", dateret efter en ansøgning om lov til anlæg af minebane i Durham County. Danmarks geografi er som skabt til sejlads og det kan vel ikke udelukkes at der de steder, hvor ordet drag indgår i stednavnet, har været et slæbested over land. Der har været en sejlrute mellem Ribe og Kolding og arkæologiske udgravninger har påvist en sejlrute via Treene til Hedeby. Spørgsmålet er om ikke såvel Danevirke som Kovirke har været fæstningsværker, der skulle beskytte denne trafik. Navnet Kovirke har altid været et mysterium, men da jeg læste det sidste ummer af Fregatten Jyllands tidsskrift studsede jeg over navnet kobrygge. Mange sømandsudstryk er frisiske, så jeg slog op i en nederlandsk-engelsk ordbog under kobrygge og fandt: KOEBRUG - LOOPPLANK, GANGPLANK. Desuden KOEBRUGDEK. Altså dæ! ksplanker, i det konkrete tilfælde mellem formast og stormast. Kovirke kan derfor være afledt af KOE WERK, altså et palidsadeværk. Er er ord som koe i denne forbindelse frisisk? Venlig hilsen Erland Egefors -------------------------------- ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 9 18:20:28 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:20:28 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.09 (02) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Helge Tietz Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.08 (05) [E/LS] Leve Jan, Dat is min version in de neddersassische dialekt vun Wiste (Hohenwestedt), Rendsborg-Eggernfoer: > 1. My brother's horse is green. Min brodhers peerd is groen. > 2. I see her brother's horse. Ik see eer brodhers peerd. > 3. His brother's horses are black. Sin brodhers peer suend swatt. > 4. I see their brother's horses. Ik see eer brodhers peer. > 5. This is his brother. This is his. Duet is sin brodhers. Duet is sin. > 6. This is the man whose house we have seen. Duet is de man vun dee wi dat hus seen hebb > 7. These are their houses. These are theirs. Duet suend eer hues. Duet suend (hoert) eer (to). > 8. This is their country. This is theirs. Duet is eer land. Duet is eers. > 9. Do you know whose horse this is? Weets du woelkeen dat peerd tohoert? > 10. Whose horse this is is very important. Woelkeen dat peerd tohoert is heelsch wichti! > 11. These men's horses are black. Duesse mansluets peer suend swatt. > 12. The woman who I saw yesterday's horse is dead. Perhaps: Dat peerd vun de fru dee ik guestern seen hebb is doot bleven. > 13. This is my dog's house. This one's is over > there. Duet is min hunds hus. Duessen is dar droeven. > Vlich hoelp di dat een beten. Groeten Helge ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Syntax Moyen, Jan! Ünnen vindst myn översetten. Ja, ik müss Dyn un Helge syn schryven in dey uutgaven in-geven, man Du hest myn eyrenwourd, dat ik my bit hertou dey inkelten saken nich an-keken hev. Beste wünschen un kumpelmenten! Reinhard/Ron *** A = Hamburg dialect, German-based spelling B = generalized (überregional) North Saxon, German-based spelling C = generalized (überregional) North Saxon, ANS spelling 1. My brother's horse is green. A: Mien Broder sien Pierd is greun. B: Mien Broder sien Peerd is gröön. C: Myn brouder syn peyrd is gröyn. or A: Mien Broders Pierd is greun. or A: Dat Pierd von mien Broder is greun. B: Dat Peerd vun/von/van mien Broder is gröön. C: Dat peyrd vun/von/van myn brouder is gröyn. 2. I see her brother's horse. A: Ik seh ehr Broder sien Pierd. B: Ik seh ähr Broder sien Peerd. C: Ik sey eer brouder syn peyrd. or A: Ik seh ehr Broders Pierd. or A: Ik seh dat Pierd von ehr Broder. B: Ik seh dat Peerd vun/von/van ähr Broder. C: Ik sey dat peyrd vun/von/van eer brouder. 3. His brother's horses are black. A: De Pier von sien Broder sün swatt. B: De Peer(d(')) vun/von/van sien Broder sünd swart. C: Dey peyrd' vun/von/van syn brouder sünd swart. or A: Sien Broders Pier sün swatt. 4. I see their brother's horses. A: Ik seh de Pier von (jüm)ehr Breuder(s). B: Ik seh de Peer(d(')) vun/von/van jüm ähr Bröder(s). C: Ik sey dey peyrd' vun/von/van jüm eer bröyder(s). or A: Ik seh (jüm)ehr Breuders Pier. 5. This is his brother. This is his. A: Dit is sien Broder. Dit is sien (~ (dat) von em). B: Düt/Dit is sien Broder. Düt/Dit is sien (~ (dat) vun/von/van em). C: Düt/Dit is syn brouder. Düt/Dit is sien (~ (dat) vun/von/van em). 6. This is the man whose house we have seen. A: Dit is de Mann, den sien Huus wi sehn hebbt. B: Düt/Dit is de Mann, den sien Huus wi sehn hebbt. C: Düt/Dit is dey man, den syn huus wy seyn hebt. or A: Dit is de Mann, von den wi dat Huus sehn hebbt. B: Düt/Dit is de Mann, vun/von/van den wi dat Huus sehn hebbt. C: Düt/Dit is dey man, vun/von/van den wy dat huus seyn hebt. 7. These are their houses. These are theirs. A: Dit sün (jüm)ehr (~ de ehr) Hüüs. Dit/Disse sün (jüm)ehr (~ de ehr). B: Düt/Dit sünd jüm ähr (~ de ähr) Hüüs('). Düt/Dit (~ Düsse/Disse) sünd jüm ähr (~ de ähr). C: Düt/Dit sünd jüm eer (~ dey eer) hüys'. Düt/Dit (~ Düsse/Disse) sünd jüm eer (~ dey eer). 8. This is their country. This is theirs. A: Dit is (jüm)ehr (~ de ehr) Land. Dit is (jüm)ehr (~ de ehr). B: Düt/Dit is jüm ähr (~ de ähr) Land. Düt/Dit is jüm ähr (~ de ähr). C: Düt/Dit is jüm eer (~ dey eer) land. Düt/Dit is jüm eer (~ dey eer). 9. Do you know whose horse this is? A: Weest du, wen sien Pierd dit is? B: Weetst du, (wo)keen sien Peerd düt/dit is? C: Weetst du, (wou)keyn syn peyrd düt/dit is? or A: Weest du, wen dit Pierd (to)hüürt? B: Weetst du, (wo)keen düt/dit Peerd (to)höört? C: Weetst du, (wou)keyn düt/dit peyrd (tou-)höyrt? 10. Whose horse this is is very important. A: Wen sien Pierd dit/dat is, (dat) is ganz wichtig (~ hett veel to bedüden). B: (Wo)keen sien Peerd düt/dit/dat is, (dat) is heel wichtig (~ hett vääl to bedüden). C: (Wou)keyn syn peyrd düt/dit/dat is, (dat) is heyl wichtig (~ het veel tou bedüyden). or A: Wen dit Pierd (to)hüürt, (dat) is ganz wichtig (~ hett veel to bedüden). B: (Wo)keen düt/dit Peerd (to)höört, (dat) is heel wichtig (~ hett vääl to bedüden). C: (Wou)keyn düt/dit peyrd (tou-)höyrt, (dat) is heyl wichtig (~ het veel tou bedüyden). 11. These men's horses are black. A: Disse Mannslüüd ehr Pier sün swatt. B: Düsse/Disse Mannslüüd(') ähr Peer(d(')) sünd swart. C: Düsse/Disse manslüyd' eer peyrd' sünd swart. or A: De Pier von disse Mannslüüd sün swatt. B: De Peer(d(')) vun/von/van düsse/disse Mannslüüd(') sünd swart. C: Dey peyrd' vun/von/van düsse/disse manslüyd' sünd swart. 12. The woman who I saw yesterday's horse is dead. A: Dey Fro, dey/wat ik gestern sehn hebb, de ehr Pierd is doot(bleben). B: De Fro/Fru, de ik gestern/gistern sehn hebb/heff, de ähr Peerd is doot (bläven). C: Dey vrou/vru, dey ik gestern/gistern seyn heb/hev, dey eer peyrd is dood (bleven). or A: Dat Pierd von dey Fro, dey/wat ik gestern sehn hebb, (dat) is doot(bleben). B: Dat Peerd vun/von/van de Fro/Fru, de ik gestern/gistern sehn hebb/heff, (dat) is doot (bläven). C: Dat peyrd vun/von/van dey vrou/vru, dey ik gestern/gistern seyn heb/hev, (dat) is dood )bleven). 13. This is my dog's house. This one's is over there. A: Dit is de mien Hund sien Hütt (~ Huus). Dissen sien is dor. B: Düt/Dit is mien Hund sien Hütt (~ Huus). Düssen/Dissen sien is daar. C: Düt/Dit is myn hund sien hüt (~ huus). Düssen/dissen syn is daar. or A: Dit is de Hütt (~ dat Huus) von/för mien Hund. De von/för dissen (, de (~ dat)) is dor. B: Düt/Dit is de Hütt (~ dat Huus) vun/von/van/för mien Hund. De vun/von/van/för düssen/dissen(, de (~ dat)) is daar. C: Düt/Dit is dey hüt (~ dat huus) vun/von/van/vör myn hund. Dey vun/von/van/vör düssen/dissen(, dey (~ dat)) is daar. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 9 21:16:01 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 13:16:01 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.09 (03) [E/Swedish] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.09 (01) [E/Danish] > From: Mathieu. van Woerkom > Subject: Help needed [E/Danish] > Yesterday I received the following question from someone from Danmark. Does > anyone know the etymology of the Danish word 'kovirke' Just a guess: maybe there is a relation with the Swedish dialect verb "kovla" as in Kovland. -- quote: Kovland tätort, Sättna sn, Medelpad. (i) Koffle 1479 avskr. - Tätorten har vuxit upp kring den år 1901 öppnade poststationen, som fick sitt namn från en by. Namnet har från början sannolikt åsyftat Sättnaån. Det har sammanställts med det dialektala verbet kovla 'vackla, slingra', ett namn som passar väl in på åns lopp mellan Kovland och Sättna kyrka. Namnet har i sen tid omtolkats som en sammansättning med - land. -- end quote quoted from: M. Wahlberg, Svenkst ortnamnslexikon, 2003, Uppsala, Språk- och folkminnesinstitutes, ISBN 91-7229-020-X, 422 pp. Regards, Roger ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 9 21:18:49 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 13:18:49 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.09 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: stellahenno Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.09 (02) [E/LS] Foar it Westerlauwerk soe ik it sa sizze: > 1. My brother's horse is green. Myn broer syn hynder is grien. > 2. I see her brother's horse. Ik sjuch har broer syn hynder. > 3. His brother's horses are black. Syn broer syn hynders binne swart. > 4. I see their brother's horses. Ik sjuch har(ren) broer syn hynder. > 5. This is his brother. This is his. Dit is syn broer sines. Dit is sines. > 6. This is the man whose house we have seen. Dit is de man dêr't ik it hûs fan sjoen haw. OR Dit is de man dy syn hûs ik sjoen haw. > 7. These are their houses. These are theirs. Dit binne har(ren) huzen. Dizze binne harres. > 8. This is their country. This is theirs. Dit is har(ren) lân. Dit is harres. > 9. Do you know whose horse this is? Wistso wa syn hynder dit is? OR Witsto waans hynder dit is ? > 10. Whose horse this is is very important. Fan wa't dit hynder is, is o sa wichtich. OR wa syn hynder dit is,is o sa wichtich OR waans hynder dit is, is o sa wichtich. > 11. These men's horses are black. Dizze manlju har hynders binne swart. > 12. The woman who I saw yesterday's horse is dead. It hynder fan de frou dy't ik juster seach, is dea. OR de frou dy't ik juster seach har hynder, is dea. (frjemder,mar it kin âl,tinkt my) > 13. This is my dog's house. This one's is over > there. Dit is myn hûn syn hûs. Dy fan dizze (OR dizze sines) stiet dêrjinsen (OR dêre). Henno Brandsma ---------- From: Tom Maguire Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.08 (05) [E/LS] Lowlands-L wrote: ... > Here come the sentences: > 12. The woman who I saw yesterday's horse is dead. > Some of the sentences may sound a little odd. But I don't want to win a > poetic contest. I need them as data for a linguistics paper. > Jan Strunk Hello Jan, Since this is for a linguistics paper it may be worth considering whether the above sentence shouldn't read: "The woman WHOM I saw...", or not. Regards, Tom -- Carpe Diem. -Visit Nlp in Education http://www.xtec.es/~jmaguire -Join Nlp-Education mailto:nlp-education-subscribe at yahoogroups.com -Join Seal-Spain mailto:seal-spain-subscribe at yahoogroups.com ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 9 22:07:45 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:07:45 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.09 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Addresses: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org, lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Luc Hellinckx Subject: Etymology Beste Mathieu, Erland en anderen, I might be able to help you a little regarding the Danish word "kovirke". I have researched all my Dutch dictionaries and didn't find the word "koewerk" in any of them, but I did find the word "koebrug" (D), which has basically two meanings. First of all, it designated a "gangway, a plank that is used to board a cow on a wagon or a ship", secondly it's a naval term for "orlop deck". Now this second meaning has nothing to do with cows whatsoever, because it is actually a corrupt form of older Dutch "cooy brugghe", litterally "cage bridge". This confusion comes as no surprise as you might know that "koe" is pronounced like "koei" in many (older) Dutch dialects. You will now probably wonder what the relation is between a "koebrug" and the Danish "kovirke". I cannot say for sure, but I had a close look at the profile of the "kovirke" and they actually seem to consist of three parts, a moat, a palisade and a dais. It is the latter, the raised platform that I tend to associate with a "koebrug', as it served to make the Danish warriors rise above their enemies. It has the shape and function of a "koebrug" (D). By the way, we did have similar constructions in the Middle Ages that we called a "bolwerk" in Dutch because they were made of what we call "bolen aat" in Brabantish, "beams" in English. When they were no longer used for their original military purpose, all over the world they became known as "boulevard" (via French). Hope to have been of some help... Kind greetings, Luc Hellinckx ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 10 15:23:09 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:23:09 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.10 (01) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Addresses: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org, lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Steven Hanson Subject: Syntax I wouldn't worry about this. Linguists these days seem to tend towards descriptivism rather than prescriptivism. They're more interested in studying the way people really do say things, rather than dictating how they think people should say them. Hello Jan, Since this is for a linguistics paper it may be worth considering whether the above sentence shouldn't read: "The woman WHOM I saw...", or not. Regards, Tom -- Carpe Diem. -Visit Nlp in Education http://www.xtec.es/~jmaguire -Join Nlp-Education mailto:nlp-education-subscribe at yahoogroups.com -Join Seal-Spain mailto:seal-spain-subscribe at yahoogroups.com ---------- From: Jan Strunk Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.09 (04) [E] Leive Lüe, ek frei mi dat all sovüel van Ink mi een översetten schickt hiett. Dat sall aover nich heten dat ek nich nog miär bruken kunn. So, keep the good things coming...! I'll wait probably until the weekend and then post a summary here. Maybe, I'll even have my paper finished by then. By the way, it's also good to get translations from other Lowlands languages to get a comparison. Tom wrote: > Since this is for a linguistics paper it may be worth considering > whether the above sentence shouldn't read: "The woman WHOM I saw...", or > not. Ok, I might change that, although I (the German guy) seem to be pretty much the only one around here (i.e. California) who uses WHOM in such contexts at all (at least in the spoken language). Thanks for all your work! Jan Strunk jstrunk at stanford.edu strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 10 15:34:31 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:34:31 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.10 (02) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org, lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Help needed Beste Lowlanders, Weet iemand om welk dialect het in de onderstaande zin gaat? --------------------------------------------------------------- Too zea God: 'Der mot lecht wean!' En kiek, doar ha-j 't lecht! --------------------------------------------------------------- Ik vind het erg lastig om het te plaatsen, omdat er bepaalde Saksische elementen in zitten ('zea' for 'zei' en 'wean' voor 'wezen/zijn', 'doar' voor 'daar'), maar dat 'lecht' voor 'licht' vind ik erg apart. Iemand een idee? Bij voorbaat dank, Mathieu ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Help needed Beste Mathieu, Het schijnt een Nedersaksisch dialect van Twente te zijn. Maar misschien weet je dat al, en je wil de juiste plaats binnen deze groep weten? Groeten, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 10 15:47:43 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:47:43 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.10 (03) [E/Danish] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org, lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Helge Tietz Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.09 (01) [E/Danish] Moin, Mathieu, moin Erlend, Jeg tror ikke at Kovirke har forbindelser med Laag Saksisk eller Frisisk, orden "virke" er Skandinavsk men ogsaa Laag Saksisk, i Rendsborg Amt er udsprog "wirken". Ex: "Waa wirks du?" "Hvor virker du?". Denne hele Dannevirke var bygd af Dansker som forsvar mod Frankiske Riget langt foerre Frisiske, Hollaendske eller Hanseatiske koebmaende komte til Jylland. Jeg kan mer taenke at maaske Oksevejen som krysser Dannevirken speler en rol med navn "Kovirke". Forklaring af Luc Hendrickx om "Kobrygge" kan vaere rigti, navn "Bryggen" kan komer til skandinavske sproger fraa Nederlandsk/Laag Saksisk, jeg taenker ogsaa om "Bryggen" i Bergen, Norge, som hadde altid stor forbindelser med Hansen. I don't think that Kovirke has any connections to Low Saxon or Frisian, the word "virke" exists both in the Scandinavian languages as it does in Low Saxon and Dutch, the pronunciation in the Rendsborg District is "wirken" as, for example "Waa wirks du?" "where do you work?". The Dannevirke was build by the Danes as a defence wall against the Frankish Empire long before Frisian, Dutch or Hanseatic traders came to Jutland. I could rather see a connection between the Ox-Road (Okse-vejen) and the Dannevirke because the Okse-vejen crosses the Dannevirke at one point. Luc Hendricks' explaination about the word Kobrygge sounds reasonable, the word "brygge" seems to have Frisian, Dutch or Low saxon connections, I also think about the name "Bryggen" in Bergen, Norway. Bergen had always strong links to the Netherlands and the Hanse which might explain the name. Regards Helge ---------- From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Etymology > You will now probably wonder what the relation is between a "koebrug" > and the Danish "kovirke". I cannot say for sure, but I had a close look > at the profile of the "kovirke" and they actually seem to consist of > three parts, a moat, a palisade and a dais. It is the latter, the > raised > platform that I tend to associate with a "koebrug', as it served to > make > the Danish warriors rise above their enemies. It has the shape and > function of a "koebrug" (D). I'd like to thank Michel Coumanne, Roger Thijs and Luc Hellinckx for their kind help regarding my question about 'kovirke'. I have passed it on to Erland, and it is very useful for him. I assume the Dutch word 'koebrug' can be found in Danmark under the name 'kobrygge'? regards, Mathieu ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Using "bridge" (LS _brüg(ge)_, German _Brücke_) in the sense of "landing stage," "(landing) pier" or "jetty" was very common in coastal Germany, and this is frozen in names, such as the _Landungsbrücken_ in Hamburg. I've always assumed that this was derived from old-time temporary loading bridges consisting of planks between quay and vessel. I have never heard about a *_koubrüg(ge)_ ("cow bridge"), but I would not be surprised if such a word used to exist. Groeten, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 10 17:22:53 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:22:53 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.10 (04) [D/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org, lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Help needed Ik schreef: > Weet iemand om welk dialect het in de onderstaande zin gaat? > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Too zea God: 'Der mot lecht wean!' En kiek, doar ha-j 't lecht! > --------------------------------------------------------------- En Reinhard antwoordde: > Het schijnt een Nedersaksisch dialect van Twente te zijn. Maar > misschien > weet je dat al, en je wil de juiste plaats binnen deze groep weten? Ik dacht inderdaad meteen aan Twente, maar sommige dingen vond ik wat vreemd; Daarom deed ik navraag. Kunnen we dan concluderen dat het Twents is? groeten en bedankt, Mathieu _____________________ www.streektaal.net ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Help needed Hoi, Mathieu! Je schreef (hierboven): > Ik dacht inderdaad meteen aan Twente, maar sommige dingen vond > ik wat vreemd; > Daarom deed ik navraag. Als je weet ben ik geen expert van Twentse dialecten, maar het uittreksel dat je citeerde schijnt in in een dialect van die groep (inclusief het Sallandse) te zijn. Vergelijk het alstublieft met de voorbeelden van Twentse dialecten hieronder: (1) "Oawerzat oet 't Hebreeuws deur Dr. Anne van der Meiden met hölp van ne begeleidingsgroep. Veur dree joar is der beslötten 'n anvang te maken met 't oawerzetten van 't Oale Testament en dan benaamd eerst de bekende verhalen en wat kleanere, bekende beuke te nemmen. Zodöanig lig der now ne gapse teksten dee, zo blik ok oet internationaal oonderzeuk, beheurt tot de levelingsliteratuur van völle biebelleazers." (2) "In t leste van juli van dat joar lag de roow biej oons zoowat heelmoal um. In t veald, n trad of veerhoonderd van de boerderieje, hadn ze met twee man de viefteen scheppel noa een-en-nen-haalvn dag hoast kaant ofzicht. De vrouwleu warn in de tusntied drok gangs met t beendn van de gaarvn. En wiej, de twee jongs van zes en acht, mochn koffie met brugn noar t veald brengn. In ne karbies har grootmoo twee greune kann doan, met n vuske kraantnpapier in de tute teegn t oetloopn. Ok de gemaljeerde köpkes warn in-epakt in papier, want koffie met stoeveriej, dat ko'j leu dee an t öazn warn nich andoon. De plakn stoet met brood en nen snie spek der tusn zatn biej mekaar in nen blauwgebloktn schötteldook. De leu leekn nich al te völ honger te hebn, zee keekn met bezwete köppe noar de wiedte woar t al wat duuster leek te wördn. En dat um dree uur in n noamiddag. Dan kö'j wa noagaon. Heb wiej alle gaarvn op n ean, veur t schoer hier is? stön der in de oogn te leazn. Mer wiej keender warn nog analfabeet." (3) "No joa, hee hef mooi verdan doan, met t dichtn. Deur de bemeuienis van Goaitsen van der Vliet lig der noe n kaant beuksken. En dee Tweantse schriefwieze: loat den hilndal mer oaver an den oetgeaver. As der n regionaal diktee veur t plat komn zol, dan zol hee t wisse winn. En as der nen pries veur eignwiezigheid zol wean, dan gung den ok noar Goaitsen van der Vliet, da's zoo vaste as Meunster. 'Heurt s eavn, doar bin'k t nich met eens!' zol e dan wierum doon, en mét zol kloar wordn, hee is den rechtn prieswinner." (4) "Wieders he'j n roondgaank van t leavn. Recht veraandert der zich nich wat: der wordt aaltied zeaid, meaid en inhaald." (5) "t Tweede part van dee tentoonstelling wördn vriejdaagns den 12n september in Eanske lösdoan met ne muzikale biejdreage van Fay Lovsky (dee't doomoals oonder n naam Fay Lovesick ere eerste plaat Sound on sound hef loatn maakn deur 1000 idioten, t eign plaatnlabel van de Enschedese School) en ne geestige leazing van nen teks in t plat deur Gerrit Klaassen." (6) "Wiej hebt n keer biej nen boer oavernacht in t heui, bang veur breui, en wiej sleupn slecht en wiej waarn zoo bliej met t eerste lecht." (7) "A'j eer eern weelt doo'j dat deur dee sproake te gebroekn." (8) "Dan ha'j ne goeie buurt maakt." (9) "Heb iej ne stie op t net in of oaver Neersassies plat? Of neum iej doar van zonne sproake? As dat zoo is, dan kö'j oe ansloetn biej Plat(t) Online." Dit is waarschijnlijk genoeg om dit te tonen: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Too zea God: 'Der mot lecht wean!' En kiek, doar ha-j 't lecht! > --------------------------------------------------------------- "zea" en "wean": der wordt aaltied zeaid Tweants geestige leazing "doar": dat joar oaver oawerzetten doan noar "lecht": met t eerste lecht "ha-j": A'j eer eern weelt doo'j dat deur dee sproake te gebroekn Dan ha'j ne goeie buurt maakt. dan kö'j oe ansloetn Vallende tweeklanken (ea, oa, enz., die van lange eenklanken afgeleid zijn) zijn typische kenmerken van deze dialecten en van de verwante Westfaals-Saksische (inclusief Münsterlandse) dialecten op de Duitse zijde van de grens. Groeten, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 10 18:08:25 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:08:25 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2004.03.10 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org, lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativia Dear Lowlanders, Since my last administrative message on February 20 we have been joined by several "New Lowlanders." Welcome to all of them! Below (on the bottom) please find a list of their places of residence. Please, everyone, "new" and "old," make sure you read and understand the rules and guidelines (http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules). If you wish to be temporarily absent, please let me know the dates, and I will be happy to suspend mailings to you. A few of our subscribers have occasional trouble getting their posting submissions to arrive via the listserver. Apparently this is caused by a combination of the “reply-to” message setup of the listserver and individual subscribers’ email program setups. So far we have not been able to identify the exact cause and thus find out why problems occur apparently randomly. However, our setup has been tweaked to lessen the frequency rate of such problems. If you do not see your submissions displayed or have not heard from me after about two days, please contact me. Alternatively, please resend the submissions to (instead of the usual ). If you turn out to be among the minority with this recurring problem, please use from then on. Please do not send the same submissions simultaneously to both addresses, since sorting out duplicates would be too labor-intensive for me. Once in a while people find themselves unsubscribed without notice. Some of them immediately suspect the worst: that I have "booted them out" for some infraction or other. And I know this for sure only about those that contact me. Please do not jump to this conclusion unless you have received prior reprimands and warnings (which has occurred very rarely, not at all for well over one year). If you find yourself disconnected from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the automated server has unsubscribed your address because of repeated "bouncing," i.e., because your mail servers keep informing the listserver that you cannot be reached. Most of the time this is due to temporary disconnection. Sometimes the reason is that a subscriber’s junk mail filter (or "spam" filter) has not been "told" to exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why our mailings do not arrive in your inboxes. So, if Lowlands-L mail stops coming, please first check your "spam" filters and adjust them if necessary, and only contact me about the problem if all of the above fails. Should you indeed be disconnected, please write to me or resubmit an application (http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=subscription). I’ll be more than happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold. Thanks for participating in and supporting Lowlands-L! Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net http://www.lowlands-l.net Places of Residence of New Lowlanders since February 20, 2004: Germany: Hamborg/Hamburg: Hamborg/Hamburg [1] Lower Saxony: Töst/Tostedt [1] North Rhine – Westphalia: Cologne (Köln) [1] Lebanon: Beirut: Dekwanee [1] Norway: Buskerud: Drammen [1] South Africa: North-West Province: Rustenburg [1] Turkey: Ankara: Esat [1] United Kingdom: Scotland: Fife: St. Andrews [1] Ukraine: Ternopil: Ternopil [1] United States of America: Alaska: Kenai [1] North Carolina: Pinehurst [1] Pennsylvania: Indiana [1] Tennessee: Gallatin [1] Texas: Forney [1] Utah: Riverton [1] Virginia: Harrisonburg [1] Richmond [1] ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 10 20:00:23 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:00:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Competitions" 2004.03.10 (06) [S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.MAR.2004 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org, lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Competitions Fowk, Ablo is a wee sumhin for aw the Scots owthors on oor leet. Guid luck! Reinhard/Ron *** Frae http://www.lallans.co.uk/lallans/comp.htm Lallans Annual Leeteratur Competeetion Scots in Schuils Entries is invitit. Prizes is offered for writin in Scots or in onie o the byleids o Scots. The'r twa clesses o entry: (a) Primary Schuils (b) Secondary Schuils Prizes in siller o £40, £30 an £20 will be awairdit tae winnin pupils in ilka entry cless. Forby, the big an wee schuils juidged tae hae pitten in the bestest oweraw staundart o entries will win £100 for thair schuil funds. Entries can be: (a) Poems (b) Short stories (c) Short drama scripts (d) Radio/TV programme scripts or swatches o sic scripts (e) Writin pitten ower intae Scots fae ither leids or onie ither kin o writin in Scots that micht be thocht on bi schuils. The abuin maun be in Scots oot-throu Entry is free. Entries shoud be merkit "Annual Competeetion", alang wi the schuil name, teacher contact, an be pitten in afore the deid-line o Juin 30t 2004. NB: SLS is talkin wi ithers aboot a major naitional prize tae kiver aw schuil's wark in Scots, seein a fair feck o competeetions is hauden the braid o Scotland. The bestest wark pitten in for wir ain competeetion will be pitten forrit tae onie naitional competeetion that micht be the affcome o sic talks. Adult Competeetion In the adult competeetion the Hugh MacDiarmid Tassie Will be awairdit for the bestest poem, an the Robert McLellan Tassie (an £100) will be awairdit for the bestest cutty story. Thae tassies, hauden bi the winner for a year, haes been presentit bi SCOTSOUN. Nae ither cash prises is awairdit, but commendations is gien in ilka category at the juidges' discretion. Warks pitten ower in tae Scots fae ither leids winna be conseedered. Poems shoud be nae mair nor 60 lines, stories shoud be nae mair nor 3000 wirds. Entries shoud be merkit "Annual Competeetion", wi name an address, an be pitten in, alang wi the entry fee o £4 per eetem, afore the deid-line o Juin 30t 2004. General Pynts Entries maun be oreeginal an niver afore publisht. Winners will be intimate an prizes awairdit at the Scots Leid associe Collogue at the hint end o 2004. Winners will be be latten ken no lang afore. Gin teachers or paurents is wantin tae come alng wi thair winnin entrants for tae hear thaim read thair wark at the collogue, thay're mair nor walcome. For ordinar entries isna sent back, sae schuils shoud haud copies gin thay're nott. At the eeditors discretion, entries can be setten furth in _Lallans_, or uised on this wabsteid. Copyricht bides wi the authors. Entries til: The Eeditor, Lallans, Blackfuird Ludge, Blackfuird, Perthshire PH4 1QP ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 10 21:09:45 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:09:45 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.10 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.MAR.2004 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Tom Maguire Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.10 (01) [E/LS] > From: Steven Hanson > Subject: Syntax > > I wouldn't worry about this. Linguists these days seem to tend towards > descriptivism rather than prescriptivism. They're more interested in > studying the way people really do say things, rather than dictating how they > think people should say them. Hello All, I agree that descriptive grammar is more scientifically linguistic and I abhor the Language Academy approach prevalent in Spain and France. However descriptivism may also dictate unless it is well documented in "the way people really do and say things". The University of Birmingham has an ongoing database of current language use in written and broadcast English, constantly updated through computer scanning of mass media language usage. But I wonder if even this really corresponds to "the way people... etc..." Regards, Tom --- -Visit Nlp in Education http://www.xtec.es/~jmaguire -Join Nlp-Education mailto:nlp-education-subscribe at yahoogroups.com -Join Seal-Spain mailto:seal-spain-subscribe at yahoogroups.com ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 11 00:44:23 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:44:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.10 (08) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.MAR.2004 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: "Help needed" > From: Mathieu. van Woerkom > Subject: Help needed > > Beste Lowlanders, > > Weet iemand om welk dialect het in de onderstaande zin gaat? > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Too zea God: 'Der mot lecht wean!' En kiek, doar ha-j 't lecht! > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ik vind het erg lastig om het te plaatsen, omdat er bepaalde Saksische > elementen in zitten ('zea' for 'zei' en 'wean' voor 'wezen/zijn', 'doar' > voor 'daar'), maar dat 'lecht' voor 'licht' vind ik erg apart. > > Iemand een idee? > > Bij voorbaat dank, > Mathieu > Hello, Mathieu ! I don't know which dialect that is but the sentence is very easy for me to understand compared with Eastern Frisian Low Saxon. There it would be: Dō sē God: 'Dor maut lücht wēsen (or: worden)!' Un kīk (better: süü), dor hâr jī 't läecht! You see: we also use "lecht" (läecht [lE:@Xt]. Greetings Holger ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Help needed Holger, Mathieu, Lowlanders, It's similar in other versions of Lowlands Saxon (Low German), even if you translate it word for word: Twente: Too zea God: 'Der mot lecht wean!' En kiek, doar ha-j 't lecht! EFLS: Dō sē God: 'Dor maut lücht wēsen (or: worden)!' Un kīk (better: süü), dor hâr jī 't läecht! General North Saxon: Do se(ed') God: "Daar mut licht ween (~ wesen)!" Un kyk: daar harst (~ harren jy) 't licht! By the way, for those who need to know, this is Genesis 1: Hebrew: וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, יְהִי אוֹר; וַיְהִי-אוֹר. Latin: dixitque Deus fiat lux et facta est lux English: And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. Dutch Toen zei God: "Laat er licht zijn." En toen was er licht. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 11 15:59:28 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 07:59:28 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.11 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.MAR.2004 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: language varieties Holger wrote: > I don't know which dialect that is but the sentence is very easy for me > to understand compared with Eastern Frisian Low Saxon. > There it would be: > Dō sē God: 'Dor maut lcht wēsen (or: worden)!' Un kīk (better: s ), dor > h r jī 't lecht! You see: we also use "lecht" (l echt [lE:@Xt]. And Ron anwered: > It's similar in other versions of Lowlands Saxon (Low German), even if > you translate it word for word: This indeed shows that there is one Low Saxon language (with dialectical variation of course), instead of just Dutch and German dialects on both sides of the border! regards, Mathieu ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Mathieu: > This indeed shows that there is one Low Saxon language (with dialectical > variation of course), instead of just Dutch and German dialects on both sides > of the border! Thanks for saying that, Mathieu! You've made my day. :-) Differences are really not that great between the dialects, certainly not on the spoken level. If people spoke relatively slowly they should be able to understand each other even if their dialects belonged to the geographic extremes -- say, to Overijssel (Netherlands) and to Western Pomerania (Germany, on the border with Poland). Many of the differences are lexical, due to Frisian substrates (Fryslân, Emsland, Oldenburg, Eastern Friesland, Westcoast Schleswig-Holstein) and Slavonic substrates (anywhere east of Hamburg), plus Dutch versus German influences due to power language pressures. The rest is mostly orthographic, i.e., not on the spoken level. Using Dutch-based versus German-based spelling systems has driven a wedge between the dialects on the Netherlands side versus the German side of the border. This is exacerbated by the facts that spelling guidelines are followed haphazardly and most people "out there" are orthographically not as adaptable as most of us on this list are. This has led to in my opinion unnecessary and unfortunate segregation and fragmentation. People's false notions that there are vast differences between the dialects and that orthographic standardization would be tantamount to eradicating dialects constitute one of the great obstacles on the way toward restoring language cohesion. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 11 17:25:35 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:25:35 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.11 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.04 (03) [A/E] > From: Frédéric Baert > Hi Ron and everybody > > I can answer you for french western flemish and i apologize if you > find me > too long ! > > For the case of the verbs you mentionned, we have in french flemish: > > root : /gae-/ ; /stae-/ ; /duu-/ ; /zie-/ > infinitive : gaen ; staen ; duun ; zien > 1st sing. : 'k gaen ; 'k staen ; 'k duun ; 'k zien > 2nd sing. : gy gae(t) ; gy stae(t) ; gy duu(t) ; gy zie(t) > 1st pl. : me gaen ; me staen ; me duun ; me zien > 2nd pl. : gydder gae(t) ; gydder stae(t) ; gydder duu(t) ; gydder > zie(t) Hello Ron, Frédéric, and all the others, I Have to find the time to look every day into my mailbox ! I Think once again the West-Flemish area is a transition-zone. These are the used verbs in our region: root: /gae-/ /stae-/ /duu-/ /zie-/ infinitive: gaen staen doen zien 1st sing.: ik ('k) gae /gaen ;ik ('k) stae:staen ; ik ('k) doe/doen ; ik ('k) zie/zien 2nd sing.: gy/je gaet ; gy/je staet ; gy/je doet ; gy/je ziet 1st pl.: we/me gaen ; we/me staen ; we/me doen ; we/me zien 2nd pl.: gydder/gulder gaet; gydder/gulder staet ; gydder/gulder doet ; gydder/gulder ziet Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 11 17:27:35 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:27:35 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.11 (03) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.04 (04) [E] > From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen > Subject: Vissevasse > > What does vysevaze mean here? Any relation with Danish "vissevasse"? > (deu. Wisch(i)-Wasch(i)) ~ vrøvl, vås ~ rubbish! > > I read it in Reynke de Vos. > > Grymbart sprack vort: »nu klaget de haze > Eyn mereken vnde eyne vysevaze. > > In Danish we say "vissevasse' for "rubbish", like > > "vissevasse, den hopper jeg skam ikke på! Sikke noget vås" > > Is 'eyn vysevaze' a person (here: animal) saying rubbish? or can it > mean > something else. > > Thanks in advance, > Kenneth > > ---------- > > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Help needed > > Hey, Kenneth! > >> Grymbart sprack vort: »nu klaget de haze >> Eyn mereken vnde eyne vysevaze. > > This is how I understand it (in English of about the same period): > > Grimbeard spake forth "now lamenteth the Hare > A Fayned Fable and a Twittle-Twattle-Thynge. > > And in Modern English: > > Grimbeard continued, "Now the hare complained, > 'A fairy-tale and a bunch of hooey!' > > So, I understand _vysevaze_ to be a countable noun in Middle Saxon, "a > bunch > of garbage," "a made-up, nonsensical story," etc. > > Regards, > Reinhard/Ron Hi Kennth and Ron, Here is the Flemish meaning of the word: From De Bo dict.: viezevaze/viezeveze: hersenschim, droombeeld, dwaas gedacht, visioen, gril,... (E:chimera, vision, foolish thaught, caprice,...) Zijn hoofd zit vol viezevezen. De systemen van de goddeloze filosofen zijn viezevezen. Latijn: visum, spectrum: phantasma,phantasia. Viezevezen, viezeveesde, heb geviezeveesd: Zich met dwaze inbeeldingen bezighouden, grillige gedachten voeden, dromen, visioenen. Groetjes luc vanbrabant oekene ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 11 22:20:04 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:20:04 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language minorities" 2004.03.11 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Language minorities" 2004.03.04 (09) [E/S] > From: Thomas > Subject: LL-L "Language minorities" 2004.03.04 (02) [E] > > on 5/3/04 1:29, Lowlands-L at lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net wrote: > >> How did people from Flanders come to south-western Wales and how did >> they >> manage to keep their own cultural identity, including their language? > It seems that there were settlements of Flemish merchants in Wales. > Story goes that Scotland's King Alexander wanted to establish strong > settled > Burghs in his domains and imported weavers from Flanders and nerchants > from > Wales to get things moving. Hence the Scots surnames Welch, Willis, > and > Wallace. Seems our National Hero came from Flemish stock as did other > noble > Scots families including The Douglasses.. > > Regards > Tom > Tom Mc Rae PSOC > Brisbane Australia > "The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude, > To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang, > And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang." >> From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess' Hello Thomas, I wrote an article about the Flemish origine of lots of the Scottish nobility some years ago. So just have a look into the archives. Groetjes luc vanbrabant oekene ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 11 22:22:26 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:22:26 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.11 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (07) [D/E] > om: Hugo Zweep > Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.04 (04) [E] > > How about "wishy washy" meaning feeble or poor in constitution and > described > in the OED? > > Hugo Zweep Hi Hugo, I think it has to do with the Flemish word "weerse/werse" pronounced like [wIs@] Sometimes it is written "wisse": Een siroopachtig afkooksel, het suikersap dat men uit het mout kookt als men het bier brouwt, ook bierwerse of moutwerse genaamd (E: a sugary syrup, a decoction that comes from the malt when one brews beer) Wisse/wesse = afkooksel van graan of zaad (E: decoction of grain or seed) This is something different than viezevaze! > Incidentally, this (either from LS or "Dutch") appears to be the > origin of > English "snack," originally '(to) bite', '(to) gasp' > '(to) chatter'. Flemish: ne snak= a litle something to eat snakken= een haastige beweging maken om iets te grijpen. E: a hasty movement to grap something snakken= snauwen E: to snarl, to snap at, to gasp for... > > Regards, > Reinhard/Ron Groetjes luc vanbrabant oekene ---------- From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (08) [E] > _Vrøvl_ must be related to (derived from?) LS _vrevel_ ~ _vrövel_ ~ > _vrewel_ > ~ _vröwel_ 'heinous deed', 'crime', 'evil-doing', 'wantonness', > 'sin(fulness)' (cf. German _Frevel_, Dutch _vrevel_?) Dutch: wrevel( the w is pronounced like a v) > . I feel it's a very > old-fashioned, biblical-sounding word. > > I wonder if _vås_ is related to (i.e. the /-l-/ iterative verb form of) > Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _vaseln_ () 'to tarry' > 'to talk > idly', > 'to drivel' etc. (also German _faseln_). I guess there must have been > a > noun *_vaas_ (*) at one time, but I can't think of one being used > nowadays. Flemish: fezelen (to talk very silently so that nobody can hear the secret) > > Regards, > Reinhard/Ron Groetjes luc vanbrabant oekene ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 12 15:18:30 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:18:30 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.12 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 12.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: d.denkers at home.nl Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.11 (05) [E] Dear Low landers, > > Incidentally, this (either from LS or "Dutch") appears to be the > > origin of > > English "snack," originally '(to) bite', '(to) gasp' > '(to) chatter'. > Flemish: > ne snak= a litle something to eat > snakken= een haastige beweging maken om iets te grijpen. > E: a hasty movement to grap something > snakken= snauwen > E: to snarl, to snap at, to gasp for... An expression which is used in dutch as well: Ik snak naar het einde. translated it should be something like: "I yearn for the end " With kind regards, Rick ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sat Mar 13 21:34:56 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 13:34:56 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.11 (01) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Jan Strunk Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.09 (02) [E/LS] Leive Leiglänners, vör en paor weken, heff ek op Lowlands-L een prototyp van een söökmaschien fört Neddersassische (alle dialekten) vörstellt. Nu is se nao http://www2.linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/LowSaxon/ ümtrocken un me kann ehr nu to alle tieden (dag un nacht) benütten. Nu gifft dat auk en engelschet un en neddersassischet interface un een beetken gauer is se nu woll auk. Dat kann aover ümmers nog so bit 20 sekunden duern. Apatt wenn wecke van ink nao varianten un bruukwiesen in verscheidene dialekten söken wollt, denn is dat nog ümmers en heel deel fixer as alls wat me süß sau daon kunn. Een regulären utdruck dei de socke resultaote ruutsmitt schrifft'me nich es even... Ik wöör mi bannig freien en beetken wat an kommentaore un vörschläg te kriegen, wenn dat denn 'n paor lüe mank ink gifft, de dat dings maol utprobeiert of villicht sogaor faker eens bruken. Hello folks, I while ago I announced a prototype search engine for Low Saxon. It has now moved to http://www2.linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/LowSaxon/ and is permanently avaible, has a English and a Low Saxon interface and is also a little bit faster. It can still take up to 20 seconds sometimes. But if any of you want to search for variants or the usage of some word in different dialects, it still is the easiest and fastest there is. There is no way you can write a regular expression that gives you the same accuracy in 20 seconds.... If some of you try it out or maybe even start to use it more regularly, I would really love to get any kind of feedback (bug reports, suggestions, etc.). Beste gröten! Jan Strunk jstrunk at stanford.edu ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sat Mar 13 21:46:28 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 13:46:28 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.11 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: jkrause Subject: Etymology Rick & Lowlanders, A bumper sticker once reported to me declared in Mennonite Plautdietsch "Ekj snak Plaut. Du OK?" Jim Krause ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Hi, Jim and other Lowlanders! > "Ekj snak Plaut. Du OK?" Looks like someone didn't do his or her homework properly with that one, unless _snak_ is really used in Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch), in which case I would expect *_snauk_, since short /a/ changes to _au_ in these dialects. This seems to be a direct (faulty) translation of North Saxon dialect _Ik snack Platt. Do ok?_ (_Ik snak Plat. Du ook?_ 'I speak "Plat(t)." Do you?') that appeared on bumper stickers and on buttons in Northern Germany (mostly to identify speakers to each other and to signal to the public that that's all right and should increase). Shouldn't it be something like this? * "Ekj räde Plautdietsch. Du uck?" or * "Ekj räde Plautdietsch. Dü uck?" Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sun Mar 14 17:13:30 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 09:13:30 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.14 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Gary Taylor Subject: Phonetics Dear all Sorry bit linguisticky - Most of the Germanic languages have aspiration after the voiceless plosives, however Dutch doesn't. What came first aspiration or no aspiration? And if aspiration came first, any ideas why Dutch lost it's aspiration? And also, are there any Low Saxon or Frisian dialects in the Netherlands (or elsewhere) which share this feature of non-aspiration? Cheers for any feedback Gary ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 15 02:56:23 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 18:56:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.14 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Jan Strunk Subject: Links Hello everybody, I found an interesting website at the university of Essen. It is essentially a multimedia overview over the German language. (so not strictly a Lowlands subject), but it also includes a big chapter about Ruhrdeutsch which is a "regionale Umgangssprache" in the Ruhr valley. It's grammar and a sizable part of its lexicon is based on the local Westphalian dialects of Low Saxon, so it might be interesting for some of you and also an inspiration for people who want to build up such informative websites themselves. http://miless.uni-essen.de/servlets/DerivateServlet/Derivate-10178/64k/index.html The next link is a historical overview over the Ruhr German in German. Although, I haven't read it completely and disagree with some of the seeming main points, it is still a very interesting text: http://www.linse.uni-essen.de/linse/esel/arbeiten/ruhrgebietsdeutsch.html A very interesting collection of recordings of lectures on linguistic sociology: http://www.linguistik-online.uni-kiel.de/soz.html It contains several interesting chapters on Low Saxon. And while I am at it, here are some more interesting links: A modern "dialect" map of Germany. http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/didact/karten/germ/deutdim.htm The history of English phonemes: http://alpha.furman.edu/~wrogers/phonemes/ Kumpelmente! Jan Strunk strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de jstrunk at stanford.edu ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 15 16:43:54 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 08:43:54 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.15 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Helge Tietz Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.14 (02) [E] I have checked the linguistic map given by Frankfurt University and it includes a diviation if not an enormous error since it places the Lower Franconian dialects outside the Low German dialects. Frings, Gossens etc. clearly include them and Kleverlandsch has certainly a lot more in common with Low Saxon and, of course, Limburgsch, Vlaams and Brabants than with any other Middle-German dialect. Theodor Frings made once a very careful investigation to draw the divide line between Dutch and German in the Lower Rhine area in which he set standart Dutch and standart German as the extremes. Places with 50 % and more Dutch characteristics included cities such as Nuys/Neuss, Dusseldorp/Duesseldorf, Glabbeek/Moenchengladbach and where therefore north of the Benrath line, and attached to the Low German dialects (though Cologne and Aachen are clearly south of it) . Why is the University of Frankfurt diviating from it ? Helge ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 15 17:01:02 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 09:01:02 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.15 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: jkrause Subject: Phonology Excuse me, Gary. Back up here for a moment. What are voiceless plosives, and aspirations? Jim Krause ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology Gary, Jim, Lowlanders, Thanks for the questions regarding aspiration in Lowlands Saxon (Low German). I can only provide a fairly general answer regarding dialectal distribution. Jim, "voiceless plosives" in our language are /p/, /t/ and /k/ (versus voiced /b/, /d/ and /g/ respectively). In most LS dialects, as in the vast majority of English dialects, these voiceless plosives pronounced directly before a vowel (e.g., /pa/, /ti/, /ko/) are uttered with more or less simultaneously emitted breath, a puff of air, referred to as "aspiration." (In some English dialects of Southern England and also in some Danish dialects, aspiration is so strong that it leads to affricate pronunciation, such as [tsu:] for English _too_, which is probably how German went through the consonant shift.) In Dutch (as in all Romance languages, for example) this aspiration does not occur. Probably, this can be said of all Low Franconian and Rhenish dialects. Gary, according to my observations, lack of aspiration can be found in the westernmost and easternmost dialects of LS. The former are transitional to or influenced by Low Franconian. I believe that this includes most of those of the Westphalian group (but please correct me if I'm wrong, folks). Most of those of the extreme east are now moribund or extinct. They all have Slavonic and/or Baltic substrates or influences. Undoubtedly, aspiration is old in LS (probably carried over into English), but German influence should not be discounted as a more recent contributing or reinforcing factor in some of those closer to the geographic peripheries. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 15 22:18:28 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 14:18:28 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.15 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Stella en Henno Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.14 (01) [E] > From: Gary Taylor > Subject: Phonetics > > Dear all > > Sorry bit linguisticky - Most of the Germanic languages have aspiration > after the voiceless plosives, however Dutch doesn't. What came first > aspiration or no aspiration? And if aspiration came first, any ideas why > Dutch lost it's aspiration? And also, are there any Low Saxon or Frisian > dialects in the Netherlands (or elsewhere) which share this feature of > non-aspiration? > > Cheers for any feedback > > Gary > Hi Gary, Westerlauwer Frisian does not know it, although the neighbouring Low Saxon dialects of Groningen do know it (and are "mocked" for their pronouncation, which is quite marked from the point of view (or should I say hearing?) of Dutch or Frisian speakers. I have heard this aspiration in Saterfrisian and with some North-Frisian speakers myself, but whether this is German influence or autochtonous, I do not know. Others on the list (among which native speakers of said varieties) can be better judges of that... Regards Henno Brandsma ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology Thanks for letting us know about W. Frisian and Groningen Lowlands Saxon, Henno. This is important, considering that these dialects, like those of Eastern Friesland, Emsland and parts of the Oldenburg area, have Frisian substrates. (In other words, these dialects are spoken by people whose ancestors were Frisian speakers.) How about Stellingwerven Lowlands Saxon (_Stellingwarfs_), which is spoken in Fryslân (i.e., Netherlands Friesland)? I assume it too has Frisian substrates. So we can say for now that in the northwestern region aspiration reaches as far as Fryslân. Please note that in Modern North Saxon dialects, aspiration applies only to the beginning of a stressed syllable (i.e., syllable with primary stress, in compounds also to those with secondary stress). This is similar to mainstream American and Australian English. In contrast, it applies in *any* syllable in English dialects of Southern England and in Standard German. The North Saxon aspiration rule applies in Missingsch (German dialects on Lowlands Saxon substrates) and in distinctly Northern German dialects as well, is one of those features that make German dialects sound "northern," though few people are intellectually aware of this detail. Henno, please consider also the possibility that W. Frisian *lost* aspiration under Dutch influence. Perhaps looking at it this way rather than focussing only on acquisition (probably under Saxon influence) should not be dismissed either. However, I am not saying that I necessarily subscribe to this hypothesis. I am currently leaning mostly toward the hypothesis of aspiration spread from Saxon (rather than from "German") in the case of Frisian varieties also. For one thing, aspiration is rare in the far west, and many Dutch dialects have Frisian substrates. Another thing is that aspiration is a common feature in North Saxon, including the dialects of the original Saxon region (today's Holstein, Dithmarschen and parts of Schleswig), and also in Southern Jutish and in Danish. Thus, aspiration may have spread in a fan-shape fashion southward with the spread of Saxon, and this feature did not survive in most of the varieties at the geographic extremes. Also, aspiration is strong in Southern England, the areas of original Saxon colonization in Britain, based on immigration primarily from what are now Holstein and Schleswig. It may have been introduced via Old Saxon and perhaps Old Anglish (originally used north of Saxon). Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 16 00:54:45 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 16:54:45 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.15 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.15 (01) [E] where therefore north of the Benrath line Hello, Helge, what is the Benrath line? Where is it? I know that it has to do with what makes a High German dialect and a Low German dialect, but which side is which? Ben ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 16 16:21:54 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 08:21:54 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.16 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Gaidheal Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.15 (02) [E] Feasgar math, a Lowlanders; Ron said: "In Dutch (as in all Romance languages, for example) this aspiration does not occur." My question for you, if you can help me out here, is how does an American learn to stop aspirating? I'm ever looking for ways to improve my pronunciation (though I recognize this is not something that will bar me from being understood in French or any other Romance language). And there's also the problem of recognizing aspiration: I've never been able to when I listen to Indic languages, nor have I been able to accurately pronounce aspirated and unaspirated consonants. Mòran taing, Uilleam Òg mhic Sheumais ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology Feasgar math, a Uilleam! Hopefully, other Lowlanders will have to say something to say about this too. In the meantime, here's my farthing's worth of suggestions. For me it was quite hard to learn not to aspirate. I understand that many people have a much harder time with it than I did. One advantage I had was that my maternal grandmother spoke a non-aspirating German dialect (of an area that used to be a part of Greater Lusatia, now smack on the German-Polish border), which she called "Lower Silesian" (hers being a German dialect with a Sorbian substrate). So I was at least exposed to this feature as a child already. However, my family did not quite understand, believing that she was saying /b/ for /p/, /d/ for /t/ and /g/ for /k/, so they immitated her by saying e.g. _Dasche_ for _Tasche_ 'bag', 'pocket'. I soon figured out that this wasn't really how she pronounced it, because I perceived a difference between, say, her ['de:n@] 'to widen', 'to stretch' versus her ['te:n@] 'to sound' (corresponding to Standard German _dehnen_ ['de:n at n] and _tönen_ ['t_hø:n at n] respectively). Later, when I became phonologically more aware, read about these things and found out what aspiration was, I practised not to aspirate at the beginning of a word in order to imitate her and other people's dialects. (All right! All right! So I *was* weird as a child already.) I followed instructions I read somewhere. Below is my extended version of that, extended on the basis of my own experience: "Gently place one hand on your throat, and hold the other hand very close in front of your mouth. First, very slowly, say words that begin with /b/, /d/ and /g/; you should feel slight vibration in your throat when those consonants are sounded, and you should feel no breath hitting the hand in front of your mouth. This vibration is "voicing." Now, very slowly, say words beginning with /p/, /t/ and /k/ (avoiding those that begin with /pl/, /pr/, /ps/, /tr/, /kl/ and /kr/); you should feel no vibration in your throat but a puff of air coming from your mouth when those consonants are sounded. This puff of air is "aspiration." Now keep practising these words beginning with /p/, /t/ and /k/ without feeling neither the puff of air and nor vibration in your throat. When you have achieved this you have pronounced plosives without aspiration. Keep practising. Then make this a habit whenever you pronounce the language for which you need this. After a period of consciously avoiding this aspiration, it should happen automatically whenever you speak that language." (In the case of Romance languages, there is the extra challenge of learning to pronounce /d/, /t/, /s/ and /z/ with the tip of your tongue closer to your front teeth than when you speak West Germanic languages -- but that's a different, non-Lowlandic matter.) I hope this will help you, Uilleam. Le meas! Mar sin leibh an dr� sda. Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 16 17:18:59 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 09:18:59 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.16 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Subject: Lexicon Query Our ABC Classical station features a Word of the Day each morning. Yesterday the word was 'clarting' which the expert said the OED explained as 'smearing with dirt' among other things. It also claimed the word was obsolete and probably of Scots origin. It may be obsolete in English but it was still widely used in Midlothian in my day. As a noun ''e wiz a richt clart' (He was very dirty) and as an adjective "Wee Wullie fell in the poand an goat clarty". This caused me to recall another Scots word "manky" which describes even fouler people and things. Can anyone tell me if those words are of Flemish or other non Scots origin ? Regards Tom Tom Mc Rae PSOC Brisbane Australia "The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude, To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang, And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang." >>From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess' ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology Hi, Thomas! I wonder if _clart_ and _clarty_ are related to two Lowlands Saxon (Low German) words: (1) _klarren_ (/klar-/) 'to dig or wallow in dirt', 'to perform dirty work' (Notes: (1) LS /t/ and /d/ frequently alternate, especially following a consonsonant; (2) the sequence /rd/ is likely to change to , (3) intervocalic /-d-/ often changes to or ; (4) there is another _klarren_ meaning 'to scrape', but I assume it is a separate lexeme) (2) _klat_ ) ~ _klatte_ ( ~ ) 'spot (of dirt)', 'blob (of a smeery, sticky substance) (Notes: (1) /rd/ and /rt/ frequently change to
or ; e.g. _swart_ > _swat_ 'black'; (2) there is another _klad_ meaning 'shred', 'scrap', 'rough draft', assumedly a separate word, _Kladde_ in the sense of 'rough draft' having entered German) (3) _klatterig_ ( ~ ) 'sticky', 'matted', 'wet throughout', 'dirty (all over)' (see Note 2.1 above) Final note on this: Since LS does not aspirate non-initial plosives, /-t-/ has in many dialects changed to /-d-/. So, what I am suggesting is that the above are derived from *_klart-_. Lowlanders, I have a couple of etymological questions of my own. In Scots there are the words _tae loup_ (~ _tae lowp_) 'to run' and _tae coup_ (~ _tae cowp_) to buy'. Of course, approaching these from a Lowlands angle, Dutch /loop-/ _lopen_ 'to run' and /koop-/ _kopen_ 'to buy' spring to mind (as do their variants, e.g. LS _loupen_ ~ _löypen_ and _koupen_ ~ _köypen_). "To loup" also exists in English, though apparently falling into obsolescence in many dialects. _To coup_ was also known in Middle English, apparently also later in some northern dialects. English and Scots dictionaries connect these with Old Norse _hlaupa_ and _kaupa_ respectively, although they do not actually seem to say that these English and Scots words are Viking loans. Could these perhaps be "Flemish" loans? ("Flemish" was used more liberally in early times, may have included most of what is now officially "Dutch.") I am particularly wondering in the case of _tae coup_, since it seems to turn up relatively late, namely in Middle English and Old Scots. Furthermore, these words have their own native cognates: English 'to leap' and Scots _tae leap_ from Old English _hléapan_ (cf. Old Frisian _(h)lâpa_ ~ _hliapa_, Old Saxon _(a-)hlôpan_, Middle Dutch _lôpen_), and English _cheap_ and Scots _cheap_, cf. Old English _céapian_ 'to bargain', 'to barter', 'to buy', _cíepan_ ~ _cípan_ ~ _cýpan_ 'to sell' (cf. Old Saxon _côpôn_, _côpian_, Middle Dutch _côpen_). Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 16 17:54:05 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 09:54:05 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.16 (03) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Beste Laaglanders, Ik heb gisteren een bericht ontvangen dat radioprogramma's in Nederlandse streektaal aankondigt. U vindt het hieronder. Ik heb op het web een schakel naar een alternatief-pagina gevonden: http://www.rtvlosser.nl/index2.asp (onder "Programma's"). Jammer genoeg schijnt geen van de streaming-audio-verbindingen met ACCENT FM te functioneren (rtsp://dumbella.duckstad.zx.nl/live/rolive.rm, http://www.accentfm.nl/rolive.rpm). Dit is betreurenswaardig voor ons die ver vanaf Nederland wonen. Groeten, Reinhard/Ron *** From: Bennijkamp at cs.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 12:13:12 EST Subject: Streektaal Accent FM To: sassisch at yahoo.com Hallo, Ik heb elke maandagavond tussen 20.00 en 22.00 uur bij ACCENT FM een radioprogramma over het dialect en streektalen uit heel Nederland. Het programma heet STREEKTAAL. In dit programma draaien we muziek en cabaret in het dialect of streektaal uit heel Nederland. We besteden ook aandacht aan boeken, gedichten, bijbelverhalen, uitvoeringen, optredens, lezingen, enz. in het dialect. Ook hebben we regelmatig artiesten, bands, schrijvers, enz. in de studio. Accent FM is de Lokale omroep voor Losser en Oldenzaal in Twente. Ook te ontvangen op Internet via www.accentfm.nl en dan rechtsboven klikken op livestream. Hiervoor zijn we steeds op zoek naar muziek (Cd's), cabaret, artiesten, schrijvers, uitgeverijen, platen / cdmaatschappijen en alles wat verder te maken heeft met dialect en streektalen. We zouden deze dan ook eens willen uitnodigen om in de studio te komen of via de telefoon wat te vertellen. Weet u iets dat ons verder kan helpen, wilt u dan zo vriendelijk zijn om dat door te geven aan Bennijkamp at cs.com of 06-12678253. Alvast hartelijke dank voor uw medewerking, Ben Nijkamp Het Egbertink 108 7582 DH Losser 06-12678253 ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 16 18:23:38 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:23:38 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.16 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Gary Taylor Subject: Phonology Hi Ron and All Thanks for your feedback evedryone who's answered. Ron you wrote: "Please note that in Modern North Saxon dialects, aspiration applies only to the beginning of a stressed syllable (i.e., syllable with primary stress, in compounds also to those with secondary stress). This is similar to mainstream American and Australian English. In contrast, it applies in *any* syllable in English dialects of Southern England and in Standard German. The North Saxon aspiration rule applies in Missingsch (German dialects on Lowlands Saxon substrates) and in distinctly Northern German dialects as well, is one of those features that make German dialects sound "northern," though few people are intellectually aware of this detail." On the (very) few occassions that I've been mistaken for a native German speaker - admittededly this usually only happens after I've just said a few words or the other person's drunk or due to some other debilitating factor - people here in Berlin have sometimes mistaken me for a South German or Austrian. This has always perplexed me, and I've always put it down to the way I often pronounce initial s - as [s] and not [z] - which is also more Southern. Maybe it has something to do with my plosives in unstressed syllables. I'm also often however mistaken for Dutch - I usually put this down to vowel quality rather than anything else - and also probably that people can't believe that there's a Brit that speaks another language ;) Cheers Gary ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 16 19:31:30 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 11:31:30 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.16 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Folks, The following are some interesting introductory web presentations about language varieties. Wikipedia Series: English (oddly, missing Welsh and Scottish English as well as Northumbrian): General: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language Old English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_language Middle English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English American English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_English Australian English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_English British English (actually England): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_English Canadian English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_English Carribean English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean_English Indian English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_English Jamaican English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaican_English Liberian English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberian_English Malaysian English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysian_English New Zealand English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_English Singapore English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_English South African English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_English Afrikaans: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaans_language Dutch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_language Frisian: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisian_language Low German: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_German Low Saxon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Saxon_dialect Plautdietsch (Mennonite Low Saxon): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plautdietsch Scots: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language Ullans (Ulster Scots): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Scots_language Tok Pisin (Neo-Melanesian): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tok_Pisin_language The series can also be read in various languages (though not identical in all languages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page Those of you who need some help with linguistic concepts and terminology (without being overwhelmed), here is a start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistics Enjoy! Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 16 23:06:09 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:06:09 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.16 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.MAR.2004 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.16 (01) [E] My question for you, if you can help me out here, is how does an American > learn to stop aspirating? I'm ever looking for ways to improve my > pronunciation (though I recognize this is not something that will bar me > from being understood in French or any other Romance language). And there's > also the problem of recognizing aspiration: I've never been able to when I > listen to Indic languages, nor have I been able to accurately pronounce > aspirated and unaspirated consonants. > > Mòran taing, > Uilleam Òg mhic Sheumais Uilleam, I can help you with this. Think of English and Gaelic words that have more than one consonant in a word. For example, stink, scan, screw, etc. You don't say "sKHrew, s-tink, sKHan," right? I tried my best using only Latin letters to do aspiration. Even the p in the word aspiration is not aspirated, as an s is before it. Try to take a word like screw and remove the initial s. Say "ckrew, sCan." Ben ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 17 15:45:15 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 07:45:15 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.17 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Gaidheal Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.16 (06) [E] Feasgar math, a Lowlanders; Thanks, Ben and Ron. I think I've got the hang of unaspirated /t/ and /k/, though practice is still required. /p/ is a major difficulty though. I'll have to keep working hard at it! Beannachdan, Uilleam Òg mhic Sheumais ---------- From: Theo Homan Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.16 (01) [E] > From: Gaidheal > Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.15 (02) [E] > > Feasgar math, a Lowlanders; > > Ron said: > "In Dutch (as in all Romance languages, for example) > this aspiration does > not occur." > > My question for you, if you can help me out here, is > how does an American > learn to stop aspirating? I'm ever looking for ways > to improve my > pronunciation (though I recognize this is not > something that will bar me > from being understood in French or any other Romance > language). And there's > also the problem of recognizing aspiration: I've > never been able to when I > listen to Indic languages, nor have I been able to > accurately pronounce > aspirated and unaspirated consonants. > > Mòran taing, > Uilleam Ã'g mhic Sheumais Hello, Here is my penny: Talking in physics: Aspiration is a proces of over-pressure [is this still called 'effective pressure' in english?] that you let out. In fact the same process as the 'normal' p/t/k, but you let out more air, or: in a shorter time. When the Norwegians made a orthography for Lappish [samek] they didn't write initial p/t/k as p/t/k , but as b/d/g, to avoid that the norwegians would pronounce it with 'strong' aspiration and that would be very non-lappish. So they would not write 'Theo' but 'Deo', just to get the pronunciation a bit right. So maybe it helps for you to change in mind the initial consonants p/t/k in b/d/g; and to pronounce 'Theo' [and so on...], you think 'Deo'. Thank you. vr.gr. Theo Homan ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology It's interesting to find out how different people regard and describe aspiration. Good to know that we got you well on your way to non-aspiration land, Uilleam. Now please go off into your corner and practise, somewhere out of earshot, because I don't want you to get confused by what I'll say now. Theo: > So maybe it helps for you to change in mind the > initial consonants p/t/k in b/d/g; and to pronounce > 'Theo' [and so on...], you think 'Deo'. I'm not so sure if this is so advisable, because we wouldn't *really* want Uilleam and other people with his "problem" to lose their sense of voiceless and voiced plosives being distinctly different, given also that the languages we are talking about require you to observe this difference. > Talking in physics: Aspiration is a proces of > over-pressure [is this still called 'effective > pressure' in english?] that you let out. In fact the > same process as the 'normal' p/t/k, but you let out > more air, or: in a shorter time. This is an interesting explanation. It may be useful when we talk about Germanic languages only. Language-universally, however, I am not so sure if it holds water. There are languages, especially in Southern Asia, in which not only voiceless plosives can be aspirated but voiced ones as well. This is the case in most Indo-Aryan languages (which belong to the Indo-European family as well). Thus, you can get series like m-b-bh-p-ph, n-d-dh-t-th, and ng-g-gh-k-kh. Surely we can't speak about "over-pressure" in the case of voiced plosives. Or can we? Or do you think this is a different phenomenon? Also, consider that in the Min-Chinese language ("Hokkien" or "Fukienese") you have the series m-b-p-ph (where ph is an aspirated /p/). Let me ask speakers of Low Franconian language varieties and of other language varieties that do not use aspiration. How was or is it for you to learn English, German, Scandinavian and other Germanic languages in which aspiration is (usually) required. Is it difficult for you to use aspiration? Do you even bother to learn and use it (given the fact that you can usually be understood without using it)? Regards, Reinhard/Ronh ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 17 22:47:09 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:47:09 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.17 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.17 (01) [E] > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Phonology > > It's interesting to find out how different people regard and describe > aspiration. > > Good to know that we got you well on your way to non-aspiration land, > Uilleam. Now please go off into your corner and practise, somewhere out of > earshot, because I don't want you to get confused by what I'll say now. > > Theo: > > > So maybe it helps for you to change in mind the > > initial consonants p/t/k in b/d/g; and to pronounce > > 'Theo' [and so on...], you think 'Deo'. > > I'm not so sure if this is so advisable, because we wouldn't *really* want > Uilleam and other people with his "problem" to lose their sense of voiceless > and voiced plosives being distinctly different, given also that the > languages we are talking about require you to observe this difference. > > > Talking in physics: Aspiration is a proces of > > over-pressure [is this still called 'effective > > pressure' in english?] that you let out. In fact the > > same process as the 'normal' p/t/k, but you let out > > more air, or: in a shorter time. > > This is an interesting explanation. It may be useful when we talk about > Germanic languages only. Language-universally, however, I am not so sure if > it holds water. There are languages, especially in Southern Asia, in which > not only voiceless plosives can be aspirated but voiced ones as well. This > is the case in most Indo-Aryan languages (which belong to the Indo-European > family as well). Thus, you can get series like m-b-bh-p-ph, n-d-dh-t-th, > and ng-g-gh-k-kh. Surely we can't speak about "over-pressure" in the case > of voiced plosives. Or can we? Or do you think this is a different > phenomenon? Also, consider that in the Min-Chinese language ("Hokkien" or > "Fukienese") you have the series m-b-p-ph (where ph is an aspirated /p/). > > Let me ask speakers of Low Franconian language varieties and of other > language varieties that do not use aspiration. How was or is it for you to > learn English, German, Scandinavian and other Germanic languages in which > aspiration is (usually) required. Is it difficult for you to use > aspiration? Do you even bother to learn and use it (given the fact that you > can usually be understood without using it)? > > Regards, > Reinhard/Ronh I really didn't have this problem, as my ear for languages allowed me to take flight extremely early, but I have sat through enough Spanish and French classes wherein people said words like "petit peu" and it sounded like "pooTeePoo" with oo being pronounced as in book and tee as English pronounces it. It maddened me, as I really had no trouble with the elimination of aspiration from English to the other languages. When one is accustomed to spitting air, it's difficult to be /p/recise! ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 18 01:29:13 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 17:29:13 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.17 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Hondshoven Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.17 (02) [E] In my experience as as a speaker of Dutch (and a Flemish dialect) aspiration does not come automatic even after years of using English. It takes constant awareness so as not to forget the puff of air afet p, t, k. Roger ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology Hi, Roger! Welcome to the vocal minority! I'm delighted to see that you have decided to join us. (It wasn't really that hard now, was it? I wish others would realize that, too.) Roger, I think it would be fair to say that your statement above applies both ways. Aspirating or withholding aspiration feels unnatural, at least in the beginning, if you come from "the other type." I, too, have to careful not lapse into aspiration mode when I pronounce non-aspiration languages. However, once the switch has been made, I usually stay in that mode. The only problem is that this is hard to pull off when you need to switch back and forth between an aspirating language and a non-aspirating language. Also, I find that, when switching from Lowlands Saxon (Low German) to German, I tend to stay with LS aspiration pattern (word-initial only), which gives my German a distinct Missingsch (and thus non-standard) sound, at least for a bit right after the switch. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 18 16:02:39 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:02:39 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.18 (01) [LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: Okee, ik heb ein paar vragen vöör de minsken üüt Grünnen en Oostvreisland, mor anner minsken kinnen seker ook helpen. Kin iemand de grootste verschillen tussen t Grünnigs en t Oostvreis vöör mie uutleggen? Ik bedoul in leksikon, uutspraak, woordvolgorde ens. Waarom binnen der so vööl Nederlandse woorden in t Oostvreis? Hebben (j)ie bievöörbeelden/biespölen? Welke subdialekten binnen der in t Oostvreis? en mit welke verschillen? Hebben minsken in Grünnen vrouger "un" in plaats van "en" brüükt? Binnen woorden as "nich", "un(d)", "gaar" net as Nedersaksisch as Hoogdüüts? Binnen der olde teksten (van de middel-eiw) uut Grünnen en Oostvreisland? Waar kin k dei vinden? Van is t verhaal achter de woord "neit" (seker n leenwoord üüt t Nederlands ~ niet) Groutnis/Gröütens, Kenneth ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Moyen, Kenneth! Ik wil höypen annere lüyd' up dey list geevt Dy dey antern dey Du söyken dayst. Lykers is hyr man bloots gau eyn reaktschoon vun my. > Hebben minsken in Grünnen vrouger "un" in plaats van "en" brüükt? Dat glöyv' ik nich. Du schulst ny nich vergeten, dat de Neddersassischen (Nedderdüytschen) dialekten vun Oostvreysland, Emsland, Ollenborg, Grünnen un dey Stellingwarven Vreyssche substraten hebt. In d'n val vun Oostvreysland kanst mayst seggen, dat kultuur un identiteyt ook toumeyrst Vreyssch sünd, tominst meyr Vreyssch as "Düytsch" or "Sassisch". 'n Annere saak schulst ook ny nich vergeten: Düytschland is relatyw jung as 'n natschoon, un dat starke "in-düytschen" vun dey rebeyden Oostvreysland un Emsland is gaar nich so old. Touvör, un deylwys' ook nu noch, keyken dey Oostvreysen un Emslanders mit eyn oog' na 't west, na jüm eer navers güntsyds dey grenss. Daarwegen vindst mang jüm neyere "Hollandsche" leenwöyrd', vun dey sey dey meyrsten sachs uut Grünnen kregen hebt, t.b. "vyts" (annerwegens "(vaar-)rad"). Kan wesen dat Oostvreyssch _neyt_ un _en_ Vreyssche substraten touhöyrt. Westerlauwersch Vreyssch het _net_ un _en_. Saterlandsch het _nit_ un _on_, man my dücht, _on_ is Sassisch. Vör "nich" het Oldvreyssch _nout_ un _nouwet_, Oldnedderlandsch _niewiht_, Oldsassisch _neowiht_, _niowiht_, _nieht_ u.s.w. Daarwegen kanst seggen, dat "neyt" un "nich" nich partu as vrömd an-keken warden schullen. Villicht is dat 'n saak vun "regional features". Oldvreyssch har al _anda_, _ande_, _and_, _an_, _end_ un _en_. Oldsassisch har _ant_. Dat bedüydt, dat _en_ ook simplemang Sassisch wesen kan. Ney-Neddersassisch _un_ (< Middelsassisch _unde_, _und_, _unt_ un _un_) kümt na myn verscheyl vun Middel-("Hoog")Düytsch _unde_, _und_ un _unt_. Gröytens un kumpelmenten, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 18 16:19:31 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:19:31 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.18 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: rick denkers Subject: Sidde Dear Low landers, Where i live (South east Drenthe in the netherlands) Grunnegs is widely spoken. There is one expression which really intrigues me and that is: "Most du ein siddel an der topmast hebb'n ?" Its the word "siddel" which i cannot place. In Dutch there is no word which comes close to this. Can anyone tell me something about its origin? With Kind Regards, Rick Denkers ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Hoi, Rick! What does that saying mean? To me it sounds like "Do you *have* to have a seat at the topmast?" Might it mean something like "Do you *have* to be in control?" _Siddel_ reminds me of _sittels_ ~ _siddels_ 'place to seat' (also 'peripheral or occasional room in an old-time farm house', so perhaps originally "sitting room") in other Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects. Probably, this word is derived from /sit-/ _sitten_ 'to sit'. I wonder if it is related to German _Sessel_ 'armchair', 'easy chair'. Curious, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 18 16:23:02 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:23:02 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.18 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Philip Ernest Barber Subject: unaspirated--phonology I have to report that as a native of Houston, Texas, I can attest that it is not only Dutch and certain speakers of L-S who use unaspirated final plosives. I remember being exhorted in elementary school (some sixty years ago)that we had to make "little puffs of air" after final p's, t's, and k's. That's pretty good evidence that the local English variant (which was Upland or Appalachian South rather than Tidewater South) had no final aspirants. Having spent most of the rest of my life in the NE US I now speak fairly standard American, but I find that whenever I visit Texas again, I revert (at least in non-"elevated" contexts) to my native habits. I do periodically amaze (and disgust!) my Romanian-native speaker Minnesotan wife and my New England-raised children by using that native Houstonian and not aspirating final plosives. They can't imagine how I do that, tho I usually point out that it is a matter of my omitting something rather than adding something. And, yes, "Houston" is pronounced, certainly by people of my generation, "Hyooston" (tho the palatizing is rather weak) so that it almost sounds as if the intial sound is an "ich-Laut." The final t is not a d, however, and the final vowel is a short i rather than a schwa. Texans probably differ on that, but they also differ in how they pronounce "Texas," whether "Tex-iz" or "Tex-uhz." ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 18 16:30:08 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:30:08 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.18 (04) [LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.18 (01) [LS] Bedankt Reinhard, > > Hebben minsken in Grünnen vrouger "un" in plaats van "en" brüükt? > > Dat glöyv' ik nich. Tja, k weit neit. Ik har "und" in ein Grünniger tekst üüt rundt 1250 sein - daarom he'k de vraag steld. > Oldvreyssch har al _anda_, _ande_, _and_, _an_, _end_ un _en_. Oldsassisch > har _ant_. Dat bedüydt, dat _en_ ook simplemang Sassisch wesen kan. ant as in "ant zeventig => tseventig => seventig; ant achtig => tachtig"? k Heb "ende" in Heliant sein. > Ney-Neddersassisch _un_ (< Middelsassisch _unde_, _und_, _unt_ un _un_) kümt > na myn verscheyl vun Middel-("Hoog")Düytsch _unde_, _und_ un _unt_. Kenneth ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 18 20:15:32 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:15:32 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.18 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Brooks, Mark Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.18 (03) [E] Philip wrote: "And, yes, "Houston" is pronounced, certainly by people of my generation, "Hyooston" (tho the palatizing is rather weak) so that it almost sounds as if the intial sound is an "ich-Laut." The final t is not a d, however, and the final vowel is a short i rather than a schwa." I'm a Texin (misspelling intended) who grew up in Dallas and have lived in Austin for 25 years. My wife, who grew up in Dallas too, has a sister and brother-in-law who live in Houston. It never fails that I always notice when a native Yoostonian pronounces their city. Nowadays, there's no /h/ sound at all on the beginning of the word. Yes, the /t/ is pronounce with some without voicing, and the final vowel is a short i. Now, as for the rest of us Texins, we call the Bayou City "Hyoostin". We definitely have aspiration at the beginning, in fact, that's what makes the native Yoostonian so noticeable when it's missing. A little side note: Whenever I have been traveling in Mexico and tell someone that I'm from Austin, they always think I'm saying Houston. The "au" from Austin and the "oo" from Houston do not sound different to Mexicans. Now, if I pronounce Austin Spanish-like, i.e., rhymes with "house", they always understand which city I mean. Mark ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 18 20:46:04 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:46:04 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.03.18 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.MAR.2004 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.18 (02) [E] Regarding "Moust (du) ein siddel an der topmast hebben" Tja, It is quite normal to make inlaut t's to d's in Grünnigs, so Reinhard might be right: beedje ~ beetje tanne ~ tande ~ tante Groutnis, Kenneth ---------- From: rick denkers Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.18 (02) [E] Moin, >To me it sounds like "Do you *have* to have a seat at the topmast?" Might >it mean something like "Do you *have* to be in control?" >_Siddel_ reminds me of _sittels_ ~ _siddels_ 'place to seat' (also >'peripheral or occasional room in an old-time farm house', so perhaps >originally "sitting room") in other Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects. >Probably, this word is derived from /sit-/ _sitten_ 'to sit'. I wonder if >it is related to German _Sessel_ 'armchair', 'easy chair'. It is used as in dutch : "Moet je een draai om je oren?" The whole expression is intriguing. The word topmast gives me the idea that the expression is nautical in its origin. But what on earth is a siddel then? And, if it is a nautical expression, then it is by itself a rarity since veenkoloniaal grunnegs does not have much nautical terms or expressions AFAIK. Haije, Rick Denkers ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Moyen! Rick wrote about Groningen Lowlands Saxon: > "Most du ein siddel an der topmast hebb'n ?" And I suggested that _siddel_ may be related to _sittels_ in Lowlands Saxon of Germany, meaning 'place to sit' (not "place to seat" as I had mistakenly written). Rick then explained: > It is used as in dutch : "Moet je een draai om je oren?" So, this would be "Do you need of a box on the ear?" (old-fashioned British), or "Do you need a clip around the ear?" or even "Do you want to get smacked around?" Rick wonders: > The whole expression is intriguing. The word topmast gives me the idea > that the expression is nautical in its origin. But what on earth is a siddel > then? > > And, if it is a nautical expression, then it is by itself a rarity since > veenkoloniaal grunnegs does not have much nautical terms or expressions AFAIK. Well, Rick, idiomatic expressions, like vocabulary, tend to be passed from variety to variety. Oftentimes they go very far afield, and a recipient variety may preserve an expression while the original donor variety loses it. That in itself is not terribly mysterious to me. An expression may have made a lot of sense in its place of origin (here assumedly a nautical sociolect), but, having been frozen as just an idiomatic expression, most people don't think about its origin (unless they are subscribed to Lowlands-L). Here are my theories: (1) Being seated or placed at the topmast used to be some sort of corporal punishment on sailing vessels. (Does anyone know about such?) (2) Being perched up on the topmast (which would be very high up) you get whipped by the wind, or "get clips around the ears" from the wind. (This happens to you just standing on a dike in Northern Friesland on a normal day ...) Therefore, when working with sails, the topmast position may have been the least favored, and being smacked around the face came to be rendered as "having a topmast position." It could even be a combination of both of the above. OK, OK, so what if I have a vivid imagination? But doesn't this sound at least halfway plausible? Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 18 22:14:08 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:14:08 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.18 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.MAR.2004 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Philip Ernest Barber Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.18 (05) [E] Dear Mark, If the pronounciation of Houston has lost its initial aspiration since I grew up and graduated from college there,this degeneration is entirely due to the influx of a million or two outlanders, many from (shudder) north of the Mason-Dixon line. Television may be also responsible, as nowadays all teenaged girls, even in Houston, talk like someone from "Buffy the Vampire Slayer." This is not progress. I'm afraid that I am both a prescriptivist and a nativist. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 18 22:17:38 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:17:38 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.18 (08) [LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.MAR.2004 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Jan Strunk Subject: Syntax Leive Lüe, auk in't Westföösche bruuk de lüe in Süden "nit" un nich "nich". Ek glaif all in'n Süden fan Baukum (Bochum) hiett se fröger "nit" seggt. Beste gröten! Jan Strunk jstrunk at stanford.edu ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Jan, Lüyd', In 'n barg Süyd-Düytsche dialekten segt sey ook "nit" un "net". Dat het amend gaar niks tou beseggen. Gröytens, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 18 22:20:01 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:20:01 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.03.18 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.MAR.2004 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Jan Strunk Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.18 (02) [E] Leive Lüe, Rick schreev: > "Most du ein siddel an der topmast hebb'n ?" Its the word "siddel" which i > cannot > place. In Dutch there is no word which comes close to this. Can anyone > tell me something about its origin? Or kunn dat villicht dat wuord "seddel" (westföölsch siäddel) siin. Dat wärd woll en leenwuord ut't haugdüütsche siin: Zettel (small piece of paper). Ek wiet nich af dat möglik es. Ek verstaoh aover auk nich wat dat küersel bedüden sall. Kumpelmente! Jan Strunk jstrunk at stanford.edu ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.03.18 (06) [E] Ron wrote the following to explain the expression "Most du ein siddel an der topmast hebb'n ?": > Here are my theories: > > (1) Being seated or placed at the topmast used to be some sort of corporal > punishment on sailing vessels. (Does anyone know about such?) > > (2) Being perched up on the topmast (which would be very high up) you get > whipped by the wind, or "get clips around the ears" from the wind. (This > happens to you just standing on a dike in Northern Friesland on a normal day > ...) Therefore, when working with sails, the topmast position may have been > the least favored, and being smacked around the face came to be rendered as > "having a topmast position." > > It could even be a combination of both of the above. I beg to disagree; I think there's a much easier explanation. The "topmast" is probably your head or the top thereof. And a "siddel" must be something related to what I know, unfortunately, as a "Backs" in Lower Saxon (as in "Willste'n Backs?", which is also an inquiry as to whether the person asked would like to have his face come into painful contact with the asker's hand). Gabriele Kahn ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 18 22:43:25 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:43:25 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.18 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.MAR.2004 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language survival Below is a newspaper article that may be of interest to many of you. While I agree with what is being said about Siberian and North American languages, it needs to be stressed that this occurs *everywhere*, and not only with "exotic" languages but also with European and European-based languages that happened to end up considered second- or third-rate, relegated to what almost amounts the underground. In other words, it applies to Lowlands varieties also. Regards, Reinhard/Ron *** The Seattle Times, Thursday, March 18, 2004, p. A6: LINGUISTS IN RACE TO SAVE LANGUAGES THEIR TASK is to record and document endangered tongues and to develop written forms to help preserve them. by earl lane Newsday WASHINGTON — In half a dozen fishing villages in a remote part of central Siberia, the Middle Chulym people are losing their language, one of hundreds of tongues likely to vanish around the world during the next half century. Among the Middle Chulym, who survive by ancestral ways of hunting, gathering and fishing, only about 40 of 426 people continue to speak the native language, according to K. David Harrison, a linguist at Swarthmore College who traveled to the region last year to document two Turkic languages in imminent danger. He found that no one younger than 52 can speak Middle Chulym fluently, and the rest speak only Russian. "Each language that vanishes without being documented leaves an enormous gap in our understanding of some of the many complex structures the human mind is capable of producing," Harrison said. Number systems, grammatical structures and classification systems can be lost, along with knowledge about medicinal plants, animal behavior, weather signs and hunting techniques. Siberian language in peril Another Siberian language called Tofa also is threatened, with 35 of 600 in the community able to speak it. When such native languages die, Harrison said recently at a meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, villagers lose an oral history as well as detailed knowledge of the local environment. The Tofa people are reindeer herders, Harrison said, and their language has special ways of describing reindeer by sex, age, fertility, color and ease of riding. Such descriptions do not translate easily into Russian, he said. Human languages are vanishing as we speak,” said Harrison, who argues that the rate of loss is every bit as disturbing as the extinction of animal species. Stephen Anderson, a Yale University linguist, estimates that "probably 40 percent or more of the world's languages will cease to be spoken within the next 50 to 100 years." Ethnologue, a database maintained by SIL International of Dallas, lists 6,809 languages worldwide. That number is subject to debate, say Anderson and others. Laurence Horn, a Yale linguist, said the number of languages sometimes is influenced by politics as much as linguistics. Cantonese and Mandarin are distinct languages, he said, but the Chinese government prefers to consider them dialects. Horn cited the oft-quoted comment, attributed to Yiddish linguist Max Weinreich, that a language is "a dialect with an army and a navy." Harrison said languages begin to decline when native speakers view them as less prestigious or not accepted as widely as the dominant language in a region. That has been the case with Middle Chulym, Harrison said. Native languages Of the indigenous languages of North America, Anderson said, only eight have as many as 10,000 speakers. Navajo is the largest, with about 160,000 speakers, he said. But many young Navajos no longer are learning the language as their first tongue, he said. "Once young children don't learn it as a first language," Anderson said, "then it has only as many years to go as the life expectancy of its current native speakers." Language-maintenance efforts are under way in American Indian communities, he said, but studying the language for a few hours a week in school is not sufficient to rescue a threatened language. Some elementaries, including one on the Mohawk reservation in northern New York, teach the traditional tongue as a first language in immersion programs aimed at preserving language and culture. The loss of languages is not inevitable, Anderson said. Linguists such as Harrison have been trying to record and document endangered languages, help foster interest in them among local populations and develop written forms to help preserve them. Whenever a language dies, Anderson said, "it's a human tragedy and one of the few tragedies that linguists can do something about." ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 19 01:19:33 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:19:33 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.18 (11) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.MAR.2004 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Jan Strunk Subject: 15.918, Books: Translation: Findlay (Ed.) Hello, I thought this might be interesting for some of you. Its a book announcement from the Linguist List ----- Original Message ----- From: "LINGUIST List" > 1) > Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:54:45 -0500 (EST) > From: marketing at multilingual-matters.com > Subject: Frae Ither Tongues: Findlay (Ed.) > > -------------------------------- Message 1 ------------------------------- > > Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:54:45 -0500 (EST) > From: marketing at multilingual-matters.com > Subject: Frae Ither Tongues: Findlay (Ed.) > > Title: Frae Ither Tongues > Subtitle: Essays on Modern Translation into Scots > Series Title: Topics in Translation > > Publication Year: 2004 > Publisher: Multilingual Matters > http://www.multilingual-matters.com/ > > Book URL: http://www.multilingual-matters.com/multi/display.asp?isb=1853597007 > > Editor: Bill Findlay, Queen Margaret University College, Edinburgh > > Hardback: ISBN: 1853597007, Pages: 272, Price: U.S. $ 79.95 > > Abstract: > > Not only has the period of the past seventy years been the richest for > literary translation into Scots since the sixteenth century, but it > can claim to be the richest in terms of the quantity of work and the > range of languages and genres translated. This collection of essays, > by translators and critics, represents the first extended analysis of > the nature and practice of modern translation into Scots. > > Lingfield(s): Translation > > Written In: English (Language Code: ENG) > > See this book announcement on our website: > http://linguistlist.org/get-book.html?BookID=9454. Best regards, Jan Strunk jstrunk at stanford.edu ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Thanks a million, Jan! Ay, that leuks like a braw beuk. It's needit an aw. An oor ane Brian Holton is a pairt o the project! We need a book like this for Lowlands Saxon (Low German) as well, folks. Bit 39.96 UK poond or 63.96 US dollar ... *discoont* ... Fegs! Gey an dear! Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 19 01:22:49 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:22:49 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.18 (12) [LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.MAR.2004 (12) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Jan Strunk Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.18 (08) [LS] Hallo, Ron schreev: > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Etymology > > Jan, Lüyd', > > In 'n barg Süyd-Düytsche dialekten segt sey ook "nit" un "net". Dat het > amend gaar niks tou beseggen. Dat stimmt. Ek wull blots seggen dat dat een heelen biärg neddersassische dialekten gifft, wo me "nit" of "neit" seggt. Dat kömp man bloots in't Rundfunk-Platt wat jä op dat nordneddersassische opbugget nich rut. Et is aower auk klaor, dat me bi'n spraokwannel heel eenfak fan "niwiht", usw. nao "nit" or auk "nich(t)" hen komen kann. Dat wöör maol interessant te wieten wu dat fröger in't middelneddersassische was. Ek main in wecke rebeiten se "nicht" bruken un in wecke "neet". Apatt nu es dat jä auk sau dat de spraoke ut Lübbeck tau de tied en grautet vörbild was un jä nich sau schriewen worrn es wu de lüe küerden. Beste gröten! Jan Strunk jstrunk at stanford.edu ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 19 15:19:39 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:19:39 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.18 (01) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Brian Holton Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.18 (11) [E/S] > From: Jan Strunk > Subject: 15.918, Books: Translation: Findlay (Ed.) > > Hello, > > I thought this might be interesting for some of you. Its a book announcement > from the Linguist List > > Title: Frae Ither Tongues > > Subtitle: Essays on Modern Translation into Scots > > Series Title: Topics in Translation > > Publication Year: 2004 > > Publisher: Multilingual Matters > > http://www.multilingual-matters.com/ > > > > Book URL: > http://www.multilingual-matters.com/multi/display.asp?isb=1853597007 > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Resources > > Thanks a million, Jan! > > Ay, that leuks like a braw beuk. It's needit an aw. An oor ane Brian > Holton is a pairt o the project! > > We need a book like this for Lowlands Saxon (Low German) as well, folks. > > Bit 39.96 UK poond or 63.96 US dollar ... *discoont* ... Fegs! Gey an > dear! > > Reinhard/Ron ay, ye're no wrang, Ron, it's a gey dear wee buikie: A'm black affrontit at the cost o't. still an on, A'm pleased ti see it oot at alang an last. yours aye brian ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 19 15:22:12 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:22:12 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.18 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mike Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.18 (10) [E] Moin Lowlanders, Ron wrote: > Below is a newspaper article that may be of interest to many of you. > While I agree with what is being said about Siberian and North American > languages, it needs to be stressed that this occurs *everywhere*, and not >... > The Seattle Times, Thursday, March 18, 2004, p. A6: > > LINGUISTS IN RACE TO SAVE LANGUAGES I 100% agree with you, Ron. For me, the key sentence in this article is: > them dialects. Horn cited the oft-quoted comment, attributed to Yiddish > linguist Max Weinreich, that a language is "a dialect with an army and a > navy." And then the quote continues: > Harrison said languages begin to decline when native speakers view them as > less prestigious or not accepted as widely as the dominant language in a Why would speakers do that? To me clearly, because there is no army and navy, literally or figuratively (status), to back up the OFFICIAL status of a language. Wouldn´t you agree, Ron, Lowlanders, that no language that doesn´t have EQUAL official status, PRIMARY status in at least some important area of public life (such as primary education and/or the judicial system and/or mass media...you name it), has NO long-term chance of survival. Look at history, look at the world of today... If that is a valid conclusion, then it seems to me that any person not only interested in studying language-related topics (99.9% of Lowlanders I presume) but pretending to be engaged in activities of language survival (?%), must involve her/himself in a struggle to obtain THAT status for the language. If one excludes the option of military struggle, then this means political struggle. Who challenges me on that? Greetings to all, Mike Wintzer ---------- From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.18 (10) [E] Ron, What needs to be pointed out is that languages don't 'die' in the same way people do, but they fall dormant. It is relatively easy to 'resurrect' a language, particularly if there is an unbroken line of second language speakers (e.g., Hebrew, Cornish, Manx). There are a great many people, including (apparently) the author of the article you cite, who take a Social Darwinist, survival-of-the-fittest, doomed-to-die-because-they-can't-fit-the-modern-world attitude. Every language that is spoken is part of the 'modern world'. These people, and I dare say a majority of the wider populace, believe that some languages, such as those of Siberia or Native America (not to mention Australian Aboriginal languages or many in Europe) are 'on their way out' and all we can do is 'smooth their deathbed pillow'. Ultimately, if a language does drop out of everyday use and become dormant, it can be raised up anew at any time, providing has been recorded sufficiently. Criostóir. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 19 16:05:16 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 08:05:16 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymologyl" 2004.03.18 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Peter Snepvangers Subject: Etymology Rick Denkers wrote: "Most du ein siddel an der topmast hebb'n ?" Its the word "siddel" which i cannot place. In Dutch there is no word which comes close to this. Can anyone tell me something about its origin? Ron Hahn wrote: To me it sounds like "Do you *have* to have a seat at the topmast?" Might it mean something like "Do you *have* to be in control?" Hello Ron and Rick, could the word siddel somehow refer to the crows nest on the top mast of sailing ships? The following link explains meaning of crows nest. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/c_traveller/define.htm scroll down to crows nest. Cheers Peter Snepvangers snepvangers at optushome.com.au ---------- From: Peter Snepvangers Subject: Etymology Rick Denkers wrote: "Most du ein siddel an der topmast hebb'n ?" Its the word "siddel" which i cannot place. In Dutch there is no word which comes close to this. Can anyone tell me something about its origin? Hello Rick and Lowlanders, I came across a Dutch word "sidderrog" meaning torpedo, electric ray. This is the only nautical term I have found with any similarity to siddel. The following is a link to the site I used: http://lookwayup.com/free/dict.htm Cheers Peter Snepvangers snepvangers at optushome.com.au ---------- From: rick denkers Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.03.18 (09) [E] Ls, After a pleasant evening trying to discover the origin of this expression i can draw the following preliminary conclusions: - The word topmast appears not to be dutch. This was quite suprising to me since it sounds as dutch as dutch can be. It turned out to be a nautical word. And its seems to be widely used in English and American english. Definition: \Top"mast\, n. (Naut.) The second mast, or that which is next above the lower mast, and below the topgallant mast. The dutch word for topmast is steng. - The word "siddel" is not known in dutch either. It does exist in old English however. It means: "from the wide valley". Therefore i cannot see the link between this word and "topmast". Therefore i think that the conclusion drawn by Reinhard and Kenneth Rohde Christiansen might be right. Quoting Reinhard: "And I suggested that _siddel_ may be related to _sittels_ in Lowlands Saxon of Germany, meaning 'place to sit' (not "place to seat" as I had mistakenly written)." Quoting Kenneth: "Tja, It is quite normal to make inlaut t's to d's in Grunnigs, so Reinhard might be right: beedje ~ beetje tanne ~ tande ~ tante" So i think that it was used as:" Shall i give you the most dangerous/unpleasant job on board this ship ?" Gabriele Kahn: >I beg to disagree; I think there's a much easier explanation. The "topmast" >is probably your head or the top thereof. Yes, that was my first idea too. The problem is that in every other sentence they use the word "kobbe". So this would be the only expression where "topmast" is used as "kobbe". The people here are very "functional" in their language. So it didnt sound logical to me. >And a "siddel" must be something >related to what I know, unfortunately, as a "Backs" in Lower Saxon (as in >"Willste'n Backs?" Where i come from we say : Za'k je es veur de keub boeksen? In Grunnegs they use: Most klapp'n hebb'n?, or "Most du ein siddel an der topmast hebb'n? " It may sound confusing that i use "they". It is simple to explain. I come from a other part of the (east) netherlands, but i live in S-E Drenthe. And fascinated by that beautiful language which is spoken here. Regards, Rick Denkers ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Peter, Rich, Folks, English "topmast" is _topmast_ () or _marssteng_ ( < _marstenge_ ) in Lowlands Saxon (Low German) of coastal Germany. Like most nautical terms, they have been imported into German: _Toppmast_ and _Marstenge_ respectively. I am not sure if _topmast_ is an English loan or a native word, or if English borrowed it from Middle Saxon. It might be native given that both components can be native words: _top_ () '(mountain ..., tree ..., etc.) top', and _mast_ () 'mast'. Incidentally, Lowlands Saxon (Low German) also has _topsayl_ () ~ _topsegel_ () 'topsail'. _Steng_ (< _stenge_, feminine gender) must be related to (diminutive) _stengel_ 'stalk' (of a plant). Specifically, _steng_ denotes the upper part of any mast (cf. Dutch _steng_, English _stæng_ > "stang," German _Stange_). _Mars_, about whose etymology I know nothing, denotes the said "crows nest." (This one was not imported into Standard German, where it is _Mastkorb_, literally "mast basket," though you sometimes find it in stories told in coastal North German dialects.) So a _marssteng_ (one of the words for 'topmast') is the top of a mast (_steng_) on which the crows nest (_mars_) is located. I still know nothing about _siddel_ but strongly suspect it to be related to LS _sittels_ 'place to sit', though it could also be a variant of _(t)settel_ ~ _(t)seddel_ ~ _(t)sittel_ ~ _(t)siddel_ ( ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ) 'piece of paper', 'note', 'notice', 'bill', in reference to a work assignment order perhaps. So, yes, I tend to go along with you, Rick, in assuming that it refers to a punitive work assignmen: a position at or on top of the topmast. However, as far as I am concerned, the jury is still out as to whether this was because the job was dangerous or if it was because it was the highest position in which your face gets whipped by the wind, the latter of which would explain its use in connection with 'slap in the face'. Well, it could really be a combination of both, couldn't it? Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 19 17:48:07 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:48:07 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2004.03.18 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Holidays Folks, Sorry I forgot to wish you a good St. Patrick's Day this week. To our Persian, Bahá’í and Zoroastrian friends نو روز مبارك (Happy New Year) on Sunday, March 21! For the same day, Vernal Equinox in the Northern Hemisphere and Autumn Equinox in the Southern Hemisphere, Happy Alban Eiler, Eostre or Ostara, and Happy Alban Elued or Mabon to all that celebrate these. Furthermore, again for this important day, Happy Syunbun no Hi (春分� 日) to our Shinto friends, and Happy Hola Mohalla (ਹੋਲੀ ਮੁਹਾਲਯ) to our Sikh friends! Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 19 17:52:35 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:52:35 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.18 (05) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Etymologyl" 2004.03.18 (03) [E] The whole discussion about the "siddel van de topmast" sooo reminds me of the first book I ever read in Dutch: "De scheepsjongens van Bontekoe" (Bontekoe's Cabin Boys) by Willem Ysbrantsz. One of my favourite parts is where the boy who accidentally stayed on the ship when it set sail because he had fallen asleep, but would much rather be a brewer's apprentice, gets violently seasick and the old hands on deck tell him that he has to find "het zeeziekvrije plekkie", i.e. the one seasick-free spot that they say exists on a ship. Then somebody explains to him that all the horrible bouncing up and down and swaying to and fro obviously comes from the waves - so the spot he's looking for must be as far as possible from those nasty waves - and that would be the crow's nest at the very top of the mast! Let it suffice to say that the boy is very gullible and the result isn't pretty. :-) ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Etymologyl" 2004.03.18 (03) [E] Oops, sorry, forgot my name: [Gabriele Kahn] ---------- From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: LL-L "Etymologyl" 2004.03.18 (03) [E] > It turned out to be a nautical word. And its seems to be widely used in > English and American english. > > Definition: \Top"mast\, n. (Naut.) > The second mast, or that which is next above the lower mast, > and below the topgallant mast. It is used in Danish as well. We also have the word "saddel" which is found in other languages as well. It is the chair you use on a horse. > Where i come from we say : Za'k je es veur de keub boeksen? > In Grunnegs they use: Most klapp'n hebb'n?, or "Most du ein siddel an der > topmast hebb'n? " > > It may sound confusing that i use "they". It is simple to explain. I come > from a other part of the (east) netherlands, but i live in S-E Drenthe. > And fascinated by that beautiful language which is spoken here. Ik hold ook stim van dei Noordnedersaksische dialekt van Grünnen, Noordenveld en Oostvreisland. Groutnis, Kenneth ---------- From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: LL-L "Etymologyl" 2004.03.18 (03) [E] There is a book with called something like Grunneger spreekwoorden, which might be of some help. I seem to recall that it is written by Jan J. Boer - but I might be wrong. Cheers, Kenneth ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 19 19:58:59 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:58:59 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.18 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.MAR.2004 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Gary Taylor Subject: Etymology Hi all sorry - I haven't really been following the 'siddel/topmast' discussion, but I just looked in my Gronings/Nederlands dictionary and found 'siddeltop' which means Dutch 'tol', so English 'toll' - sorry if I'm repeating what's already been said - don't know if this bears any relevance to anything... Gary ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 19 23:55:44 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:55:44 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.18 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.MAR.2004 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mike Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.18 (11) [E/S] Ron wrote: > We need a book like this for Lowlands Saxon (Low German) as well, folks. Agreed!!! Better yet, for all languages we pretend to defend, we need a multi-volume encyclopedia. All languages that have army and navy, also have this (Encyclopædia Britannica, Larousse, Brockhaus...) Tschüß, Mike Wintzer ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sat Mar 20 01:21:16 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:21:16 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.18 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.MAR.2004 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mike Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.18 (02) [E] Criostóir wrote: > > Ultimately, if a language does drop out of everyday use and become dormant, > it can be raised up anew at any time, providing has been recorded > sufficiently. > With all respect, Criostóir, I suspect that this is wishful thinking. In the best of cases what you can reconstruct is the skeleton of a language because that is what you can record, but the gist, the flavor, the perfume of a language will be gone forever with its last speaker. What you resurrect is something else. It shares vocabulary and grammar with its ancester, but not the soul. Tschüß, Mike Wintzer ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Hi, Críostóir, Mike, Lowlanders! I'll chime in here, if you don't mind, perhaps in a moderating or mitigating capicity (or so I'd like to think). Perhaps neither of you is totally right or wrong, if there *is* a right and a wrong here. Or, better to say, both of you make valid points. Críostóir, you wisely added the phrases "particularly if there is an unbroken line of second language speakers (e.g., Hebrew, Cornish, Manx)" and "providing has been recorded sufficiently." Unfortunately, both of these things are easier said than done, given that even second-language proficiency has been discouraged traditionally (at least by way of withholding support), and given also that most of the recording activities, or at least those that are of use to the average person, relied mostly on private initiatives and private funding, many a project fizzling out on a publisher's desk. However, this is a different matter, not to distract from your point. Mike, in my opinion, you too made a valid point in saying that resurrected languages are not the same as the originals on which they are supposed to be based. Even though you did not say so with so many words, I add to this that a resurrected language may be a fairly far cry from the original even if there *is* a lot of recording. Let me play the devil's advocate and ask, "So what?" Assuming that, for whatever reason, a given population embraces the idea of resurrecting and reviving its ancestral language, should it really be so important that the exact "flavor" of the "original" is there? Would the absence of this "flavor" or the presence of a new "flavor" make this revived language worthless or less worthy? Probably only if reviving the very same "flavor" were the main purpose of the exercise. I can envisage no scenario in the real world in which this would be the case. Usually the main purpose of reviving languages is to create links with one's ancestral heritage, both symbolically and practically (e.g., to preserve and continue a literary tradition and to assure easier access to ancestral literature). I would like to go even one step farther by saying that putting enormous effort into reviving what some people consider to be the ancestral "flavor" would be likely to lead to overly artificial creations. Surely the purpose of the exercise should not be to go back in time but to reclaim a part of one's heritage and make it fit today's and tomorrow's needs. Inevitably, the history of suppression, oppression, decline and demise will have left their traces in this supposedly resuscitated "construct." And well they should, as far as I am concerned. Why *would* you want to try to pretend that nothing happened between then and now? Suppression, oppression, decline and demise are parts of that history, as are "foreign" domination and influences. German and Dutch domination on Lowlands Saxon (Low German) are a fact and can and should not be magically washed away, nor should French and Standard Dutch influences on Flemish and Zeelandic, English influences on Scots, etc. They are parts of those histories. Take the case of Hebrew, which Críostóir mentioned. In many ways, Modern Hebrew is a far cry from biblical and liturgical Hebrew, even from scholar-specific conversational Hebrew used occasionally in international settings in pre-modern times. So what? Does it make it worthless and useless? I don't think so, and I dare say neither do millions of speakers (including many native speakers) in Israel and around the world. Modern Hebrew is perfectly well adapted to and suited for all spheres of life here and now. At the same time there is a strong, albeit it not perfect, link between it and the ancestral versions. What more would you want? Today's Israelis and other Hebrew speakers are aware and justly proud of their ancient heritage. But I hardly think that it worries a lot among them that their version does not have the same "flavor" as biblical and liturgical Hebrew. Centuries of diaspora all over the world have left their marks on Modern Hebrew, or, better to say, are imported flavors, which should come as a surprise to no one. After all, the act of resurrection was relatively brief. The processes of reviving and reinvigorating that followed resurrection were left in large part to the actual users of the language and thus took place in a fairly "organic" sort of way, planned neologisms often being abandoned in favor of "organically grown" ones. Hence, there is a multitude of influences from the languages of the world. That's the reality and the history of its speakers and their ancestors. Why should it *not* be there to add new flavors and perfumes? (Sure, for various reasons I personally would have liked Modern Hebrew to have been influenced more by Arabic, its Semitic sister language, than by North European languages. However, predominance of Eurocentrist and "anti-Orientalist" sentiments and powers are a reality, besides the fact that millions of European immigrants simply would have had a very hard time acquiring the true Semitic pronunciation that Ancient Hebrew had. However, this is my personal feelings and should not be seen as subtracting from my argument.) Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sat Mar 20 01:23:44 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:23:44 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.18 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.MAR.2004 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Jan Strunk Subject: Syntax Dear Lowlands, two weeks ago I asked for some Low Saxon data. Thanks for all the responses: Henno Brandsma, Reupen Epp, Reinhard Hahn, Friedrich W. Neumann, Helge Tietz, Rudi Vari. I've now completed the term paper I was writing on the Low Saxon prenominal possessive construction which involves a possessive pronoun between the possessor and the possessum, e.g. "Helge sien Huus" (Helge's house). And incorporated some of the data from the responses. I invite everyone who is interest to take a look at the paper at: http://www.linguistics.rub.de/~strunk/TheMissingLink.pdf or http://www.stanford.edu/~jstrunk/TheMissingLink.pdf The first part gives an overview of the relevant data in Low Saxon. The second part is a formal syntactic analysis of the construction in the framework of Lexical Functional Grammar (LFG), see http://www.essex.ac.uk/linguistics/LFG/ I'll probably even write my master's thesis about possessive constructions in Low Saxon. So don't be surprised if I come back with some more requests for data... I hope I don't annoy anyone... By the way, I've put a thank you note into my paper and I give my informants' names. If anyone of those that contributed data does not want his name to be in my paper on the internet and maybe later in my MA thesis or other publications, please tell me.... For those of you who don't have the time or the energy to read the paper but who are interested in the data, I'll give a short summary below. But please also see www.stanford.edu/~jstrunk/lowlands_data.txt for a summary of all the data I got. Summary: As far as I can tell all Low Saxon dialects have the "X sien Y" construction, and so have German, Dutch, Frisian, Afrikaans, and even Norwegian. I analyze the Low Saxon construction as a prenominal possessive construction with a possessive linking element occurring between the possessor and the possessum. In Low Saxon, this linker generally has the same form as the possessive construction. "Jan sien Huus" (Jan's house) vs. "sien Huus" (his house). The linker exhibits pronominal agreement with the possessor in gender and number and concord with the possessum in gender, number, and case. The possessor mostly occurs in the dative in those dialects that preserve it like Plautdietsch: "Ekj seeh äahrem Brooda siene Pead." (I see her brother's horses.) However, there seems to be something else going on in Plautdietsch, too, because the possessor is not always dative marked: "Mien Brooda sien Peat es jreen." (My brother's horse is green.) (Still have to look into this.) In dialects that have lost a dative vs. accusative distinction the possessor appears in the object case (which I'll call accusative). Often this cannot easily be seen, because case distinctions are often lost. But even pronouns can be used as possessors if they are stressed: "em sien book" (HIS book) The "X sien Y" is very general and versatile construction. It works with all kinds of possessors: nouns, question words, relative pronouns, personal pronouns, and demonstratives: "Min Brauder sin Peer is greun." (My brother's horse is green.) "well sien Hart" (whose heart) "Dit is de Mann, den sien Huus wi sehn hebbt." (This is the man whose house we have seen.) "em sien Huus" (HIS house), "Se ehr Huus" (your house - polite form) "de ehr Dackel" (those people's dachshund) Besides the "symmetric" construction with an overt possessor, the linker, and an overt possessum. You leave out either the possessor to get the older possessive pronoun construction "sien Huus" (his house) or the possessum to get a pronominal interpretation for the possessum: "mien Brauder sien" (my brother's) or even both: "Dat is sien." (That's his.) There seems to be some variation in the dialects as to whether the construction without an overt possessum has to feature a special form of the possessive pronoun/linker (as English "theirs", etc.). Friedrich W. Neumann: Dit is Peiter siin Bauk. Peiter siin is grötter as Anna ehr’t/ehr’n. (This is Peter's book. Peter's is bigger than Anna's.) Reinhard Hahn: Dit is (jüm)ehr (~ de ehr) Land. Dit is (jüm)ehr (~ de ehr). (This is their country. This is theirs.) Helge Tietz: Duet is eer land. Duet is eers. (This is their country. This is theirs.) Reuben Epp: Dit es äah Laund. Dit es äaht. (This is their country. This is theirs.) In this context, it is interesting to look at the most grammaticalized variant of this construction which seems to occur in Afrikaans. In Afrikaans, the possessive linker (a) doesn't show any agreement, neither with the possessor nor with the possessum anymore. Moreover, it has a different form that both the normal possessive pronoun (b) and the "independent" possessive pronoun that is used without an overt possessum. Even the linker when used with a possessor but without a possessum seems to have its own peculiar form (d). (a): Haar broer se perde is swart. (Her brother's horses are black.) (b): Hierdie is sy broer. (This is his brother.) (c): Hierdie is syne. (This is his.) (d): Dit is hulle s'n. (This is theirs.) Some Low Saxon dialects might be at the beginning of such a development: If Friedrich W. Neumanns sentence: "Peiter siin is grötter as Anna ehr’n." can be used for a neuter singular referent as e.g. for "book", this would be interesting.... For more infos please follow the links above. Last but not least, some interesting facts and questions... In an book about Low Saxon I have come across the following example: Anna ehr wegen ("because of Anna"). What do you think about this example? Would it work in your dialect? An interesting book for all people interested in possessive constructions in Germanic (like me...): Norde, M. (1997): The history of the genitive in Swedish. A case study in degrammaticalization. Dissertation. Vakgroep Skandinavische taal- en letterkunde. University of Amsterdam. The book gives a good overview over the different constructions in Germanic. It states that the "X sien Y" possessive construction in Dutch is only used with animate (or even human) referents: That is "Jan z'n huis" would be fine, but not "dit huis z'n raam". Do you Dutch speakers out there argee? What about Low Saxon, Afrikaans, etc.? Ok, if you have any questions, complains or corrections, or new data (!), keep it comming.... Thank you all again! Jan Strunk jstrunk at stanford.edu strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de http://www.stanford.edu/~jstrunk/ http://www.linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/~strunk/ ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sat Mar 20 16:59:44 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 08:59:44 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.20 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 20.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.18 (09) [E] > From: Jan Strunk > Subject: Syntax Hi Jan, Here are my Flemish variants: > > Dear Lowlands, > Summary: > As far as I can tell all Low Saxon dialects have the "X sien Y" > construction, and so have German, Dutch, Frisian, Afrikaans, and even > Norwegian. I analyze the Low Saxon construction as a prenominal > possessive > construction with a possessive linking element occurring > between the possessor and the possessum. In Low Saxon, this linker > generally > has the same form as the possessive construction. > "Jan sien Huus" (Jan's house) vs. "sien Huus" (his house). Jan zin uus / jans uus > The linker > exhibits pronominal agreement with the possessor in gender and number > and concord with the possessum in gender, number, and case. The > possessor > mostly occurs in the dative in those dialects that preserve it like > Plautdietsch: "Ekj seeh äahrem Brooda siene Pead." (I see her brother's > horses.) 'k Zie eur broers peird / 'k Zie eur broers ulder peird > However, there seems to be something else going on in Plautdietsch, > too, > because the possessor is not always dative marked: > "Mien Brooda sien Peat es jreen." (My brother's horse is green.) Min broere zin peird is groene / Min broeres peird is groene. > (Still have to look into this.) > In dialects that have lost a dative vs. accusative distinction the > possessor > appears in the object case (which I'll call accusative). Often this > cannot easily be seen, because case distinctions are often lost. > But even pronouns can be used as possessors if they are stressed: "em > sien > book" (HIS book) Zin boek/ Hie zin boek(sounds natural, but i don't know if it is used) > > The "X sien Y" is very general and versatile construction. It works > with all > kinds of possessors: nouns, question words, relative pronouns, > personal pronouns, and demonstratives: > "Min Brauder sin Peer is greun." (My brother's horse is green.) > "well sien Hart" (whose heart) Wiens herte / Wie(ne) zin herte > "Dit is de Mann, den sien Huus wi sehn hebbt." (This is the man whose > house > we have seen.) Da's de vint zin uus da me gezien hèn / > "em sien Huus" (HIS house) zin uus (E: his house) / eur uus (E: her house) > , "Se ehr Huus" (your house - polite form) joen uus > "de ehr Dackel" (those people's dachshund) ulder nen hond > > Besides the "symmetric" construction with an overt possessor, the > linker, > and an overt possessum. You leave out either the > possessor to get the older possessive pronoun construction "sien Huus" > (his > house) or the possessum to get a pronominal > interpretation for the possessum: "mien Brauder sien" (my brother's) > or even > both: "Dat is sien." (That's his.) Dad'is 't ziene. > There seems to be some variation in the dialects as to whether the > construction without an overt possessum has to feature > a special form of the possessive pronoun/linker (as English "theirs", > etc.). > > Friedrich W. Neumann: Dit is Peiter siin Bauk. Peiter siin is grötter > as > Anna ehr’t/ehr’n. (This is Peter's book. Peter's is bigger than > Anna's.) Dad' is Pieter zin boek/ Dad'is Pieters boek. Pieters is groôter dan Anna's > Reinhard Hahn: Dit is (jüm)ehr (~ de ehr) Land. Dit is (jüm)ehr (~ de > ehr). > (This is their country. This is theirs.) Dad' is ulder land. Dad' is ulders (E: theirs) Dad'is julder land. Dad'is julders (E: yours) > Helge Tietz: Duet is eer land. Duet is eers. (This is their country. > This is > theirs.) > Reuben Epp: Dit es äah Laund. Dit es äaht. (This is their country. > This is > theirs.) > > In this context, it is interesting to look at the most grammaticalized > variant of this construction which seems to occur in Afrikaans. > In Afrikaans, the possessive linker (a) doesn't show any agreement, > neither > with the possessor nor with the possessum anymore. > Moreover, it has a different form that both the normal possessive > pronoun > (b) and the "independent" possessive pronoun that is used without > an overt possessum. Even the linker when used with a possessor but > without a > possessum seems to have its own peculiar form (d). > > (a): Haar broer se perde is swart. (Her brother's horses are black.) Eur broere zin peirden zin zwart./ Eur broeres peirden zin zwart > (b): Hierdie is sy broer. (This is his brother.) 'ndien ier is zin broere. > (c): Hierdie is syne. (This is his.) Dad'ier is zin... > (d): Dit is hulle s'n. (This is theirs.) Dad'is tunder/tulder > > Some Low Saxon dialects might be at the beginning of such a > development: > If Friedrich W. Neumanns sentence: "Peiter siin is grötter as Anna > ehr’n." > can be used for a neuter singular referent as e.g. for "book", > this would be interesting.... > > For more infos please follow the links above. Last but not least, some > interesting facts and questions... > In an book about Low Saxon I have come across the following example: > > Anna ehr wegen ("because of Anna"). What do you think about this > example? > Would it work in your dialect? Anna's ierentwegen... > > An interesting book for all people interested in possessive > constructions in > Germanic (like me...): > > Norde, M. (1997): The history of the genitive in Swedish. A case study > in > degrammaticalization. Dissertation. Vakgroep Skandinavische taal- en > letterkunde. University of Amsterdam. > > The book gives a good overview over the different constructions in > Germanic. > It states that the "X sien Y" possessive construction > in Dutch is only used with animate (or even human) referents: That is > "Jan > z'n huis" would be fine, but not "dit huis z'n raam". Just the same in Flemish. Jan zin uus / 't raom van dad'uus. > Do you Dutch speakers out there argee? What about Low Saxon, Afrikaans, > etc.? > Ok, if you have any questions, complains or corrections, or new data > (!), > keep it comming.... > Thank you all again! > Jan Strunk Groetjes luc Vanbrabant oekene ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sat Mar 20 17:07:36 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 09:07:36 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.20 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 20.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Frédéric Baert Subject: morphology Hi to everybody I have a question in mind : I know about the first germanic sound shift and about the high german sound shift. But I can't understand something : to the english word "seven", dutch/flemish "zeven" correpond german "sieben", french "sept", griek "hepta" or something like that. So lowlands languages seem to have a "v" in place of a "b" in high german and a "p" in other european languages. Kind of sound shift in lowlands languages. I think also about english/dutch/flemish "half" german "halb" (I think). English "self", flemish "zelve" and "zelvst" but german "selbst". Perhaps english "answer" but dutch/flemish "antooren/antworen". I'm sorry for eventual orthograph mistakes. I did never read about this phenomenon. Can you give me informations about it ? Thank you Frédéric Baert ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology Hi, Frédéric! Lowlands Saxon (Low German) has either /v/ or /b/ in such instances, depending on the dialect. (It is /b/ in the Lower Elbe region, for instance.) In Old Saxon, such instances are written with a barred "b" (<ƀ>), which may mean that it was pronounced as a bilabial fricative, much like Modern Spanish and . Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sat Mar 20 17:10:01 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 09:10:01 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.20 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 20.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Helge Tietz Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.15 (04) [E] Hi Ben, Finally I came around replying to your mail about the Benrath Line. On encyclopedia.org I have found the following: A. THE LOW GERMAN DIALECTS The Low German dialects, as we have seen, stand nearest to the English and Frisian languages, owing to the total absence of the consonantal shifting which characterizes High German, as well as to other peculiarities of sounds and inflections, e.g. the loss of the nasals m and n before the spirants f, s and p. Cf. Old Saxon fif (five), us (us), kup (cf. uncouth). The boundary-line between Low and High German, the so-called Benrather Linie, may roughly be indicated by the following place-names, on the understanding, however, that the Ripuarian dialect (see below) is to be classed with High German: east of Eupen, north of Aachen, north of Benrath, south of Duesseldorf, north of Siegen, north of Cassel, north of Heiligenstadt, Harzgerode, to the Elbe south of Magdeburg; this river forms the boundary as far as Wittenberg, whence the line passes to Lubben on the Spree, Furstenwald on the Oder and Birnbaum near the river Warthe. Beyond this point the Low Germans have Slavs as their neighbors. Compared with the conditions in the 13th century, it appears that Low German has lost ground; down to the 14th and 15th centuries several towns, such as Mansfeld, Eisleben, Merseburg, Halle, Dessau and Wittenberg, spoke Low German. Addition: Such towns as Nuys/Neuss, Glabbeek/Moenchengladbach, Krieveld/Krefeld, Solingen and Duesseldoerp/Duesseldorf are north of this line and elderly people in particular speak the old Low Franconian dialects of this places. Example: In Dueseldoerp people still say "Lott jonn" in compare "Loss jonn" in Cologne. Low German falls into two divisions, a western division, namely. Low Franconian, the parent, as we have already said, of Flemish and Dutch, and an eastern division, Low Saxon (Plattdeutsch, or, as it is often simply called, Low German). The chief characteristic of the division is to be sought in the ending of the first and third person plural of the present indicative of verbs, this being in the former case -en, in the latter -et. Inasmuch as the south-eastern part of Low Franconianinclusive of Gelderland and Clevesshifts final k to ch (e.g. ich, mich, auch, -lick), it must obviously be separated from the rest, and in this respect be grotiped with High German. Low Saxon is usually divided into Westphalian (to the west of the Weser) and Low Saxon proper, between Weser and Elbe. The southeastern part of the latter has the verbal ending -en and further shows the peculiarity that the personal pronoun has the same form in the dative and accusative (mile, dick), whereas the renjainder, as well as the Westphalian, has ml, di in the dative, and ml, di or mik, dik in the accusative. To these Low German dialects must also be added those spoken east of the Elbe on what was originally Slavonic territory; they have the ending -en in the first and third person plural of verbs.5 Helge ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sat Mar 20 17:12:10 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 09:12:10 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.20 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 20.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Frédéric Baert Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.17 (01) [E] Ron wrote : >Let me ask speakers of Low Franconian language varieties and of other >language varieties that do not use aspiration. How was or is it for you to >learn English, German, Scandinavian and other Germanic languages in which >aspiration is (usually) required. Is it difficult for you to use >aspiration? Do you even bother to learn and use it (given the fact that you >can usually be understood without using it)? > >Regards, >Reinhard/Ronh > Hi Sorry to reply to this so late. I'm a french fleming so I speak french and partially french flemish. I know I have a little flemish accent (my french friends say that because I can't hear it !). I don't think it has been difficult for me to learn to use aspiration in english but I can't say if it's the case for all french people and if I use aspiration correctly. But there is another point. I think I use sometimes a little aspiration (not as strong as in english) after the initial occlusives (especially p and t) in french. In most of cases, I use it to accentuate the word. i.e. "c'est terrible". The t of "terrible" can have a little aspiration if I place a stress on the first syllab. I can't say if it's particular to me, to french flanders or if it exists in other regions of France. cheers Frederic Baert ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sat Mar 20 17:33:23 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 09:33:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.20 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 20.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.18 (08) [E] Mike Wintzer wrote: "I suspect that this is wishful thinking. In the best of cases what you can reconstruct is the skeleton of a language because that is what you can record, but the gist, the flavor, the perfume of a language will be gone forever with its last speaker. What you resurrect is something else. It shares vocabulary and grammar with its ancestor, but not the soul." It all rather depends on how one goes about reviving a language. My background is Cornish and Irish - two languages that have seen strong and successful revival movements over the last fifty years and the last twenty years especially. There are now more people with capabilities in Cornish and Irish, and more native speakers (all brought to pass through the revival movement) than a hundred years ago. I would rather language revival was attempted - no matter how imperfect - than denigrated. All language planning is, to some extent, "wishful thinking". Wishes are what provide the motivation to speak ancestral languages once again. Mike implies that revived languages are necessarily inauthentic, lacking the "the gist, the flavour, the perfume". This is unfair and untrue: it depends on how you set about reviving a language. Cornish is a good example of the two extremes in doing this. There are, in fact (as I suspect is well known here) three (actually, four) variants of Cornish. One (which I consider is the best), Modern Cornish, tries to pick up where the last native speakers left off - simple as that. It places a strong emphasis of the phonological descent of the modern accents of West Cornwall in describing the sound system of the last speakers. Unfortunately, it uses an English-based orthography, so that the common Celtic word for 'land' (W. tir, Ir. tir) comes out as 'teere'. The word 'head' is 'pedn'; the word for 'country' is 'gollaz'. The word for the language itself is variously 'Curnoack', 'Cornoack' or 'Kernuack'. Internationalisms (telephone, television) are used. This is the Paternoster in Modern Cornish: Agon Taze nye, eze en Neve, Benegas bo tha Hanow. Tha Gwlaskath gwrenz doaz; Tha Voth bo gwreze, En Noer pecarra en Neve. Ro tha nye an journama gon bara pub death, Ha gave tha nye gon pehasow Pecarra tel era nye gava angye Neb eze peha war agon bidn. Ha na raze gon lewa en antall, Buz gweeth nye thurt droeg. Rag an Gwlaskath Che a beaw, Han Nearth, han Worrians, Rag nevra venitha. The second variant underpinned the language revival movement almost from its inception in the nineteenth century: Unified Cornish. As its named suggested, Unified took a syncretic approach, synthesising a Cornish language from the miracle play manuscripts of the late Middle Ages and Tudor times. It borrowed heavily from Breton and Welsh to find Celtic cognates that had not been recorded in the manuscripts. It is still the most popular variant, but ironically produced a further variant, Unified Cornish Revised, when a noted Cornish scholar sought to update it. The word for 'head' in this variant is 'pen', the word for 'land' is 'tyr', the word for 'country' is 'gwlas' (cf: W. gwlad). Neologisms replace 'television' (pellwollek) and telephone (pellgowser). The word for the language itself is 'Kernewek' or 'Kernowek'. The Paternoster in Unified: AGAN Tas ny ues y'n nef, benegys re bo dha hanow; re dheffa dha wlascor; re bo gwres dha volunjeth, y'n nor kepar hag y'n nef. Ro dhyn hedhyw agan bara pub dedh oll; ha gaf dhyn agan camweyth kepar del eson nyny ow cava dhe¹n re na usy ow camwul war agan pyn ny. Ha na wra agan ledya yn antel mes delyrf ny dheworth drog. Rag dhyso jy yw an wlascor ha'n power ha'n gordhyans, bys vyken ha benary. The last, and by far most controversial, variant enjoyed a short period of ascendancy in the 1980s and 1990s. Called 'Kernewek Kemmyn' (Common Cornish), it was the the project of one Dr Ken George, who spent a summer at the University of Rennes devising a computer programme that would 'predict' the sounds of Cornish as it had been spoken in the tenth century when the language covered the whole of the country and had not been, as Dr George saw it, 'corrupted' by English. He was, to use Mike's terms, determined to capture "the gist, the flavour, the perfume" of the language in the halycon days before its retreat. Unfortunately, what he came out with was appeared to most language enthusiasts to be a bastardised, computer-aided Breton, not Cornish. By delving so far back into an imaginary phonology, Dr George had constructed a language which he called 'Cornish' but which most Cornish speakers and enthusiasts felt decidedly uncomfortable toward. Afte! r a brief flurry over excitement, Kemmyn's flaws were well documented and the variant is now in decline. The rifts it produced in the revival movement were the last thing the movement needed. Thus, Mike, one should be careful how far one wants to take a unnecessary dogmatic attachment to "the gist, the flavour, the perfume" of a language. Languages change, develop, progress. Looking backward should not be a substitute for looking forward - particularly when to do so blots out the very ideal of reviving a language in the first place. Criostóir. ---------- From: Thomas byro Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.18 (08) [E] Ron I wasn't aware of the influence of European languages on Modern Hebrew. Rather, I had thought that the major influence was the pronounciation favored by the Sephardim, who are mostly from the Arabic speaking countries. Most of the Orthodox in New York favor the Askenazic pronounciation. Outside of New York Modern Hebrew seems to be preferred and hearing Shabbat rather thab Shabbes sounds bizzarre to me. Tom Byro > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Etymology > > Hi, Críostóir, Mike, Lowlanders! > > I'll chime in here, if you don't mind, perhaps in a moderating or mitigating > capicity (or so I'd like to think). > > Perhaps neither of you is totally right or wrong, if there *is* a right and > a wrong here. Or, better to say, both of you make valid points. > > Críostóir, you wisely added the phrases "particularly if there is an > unbroken line of second language speakers (e.g., Hebrew, Cornish, Manx)" and > "providing has been recorded sufficiently." Unfortunately, both of these > things are easier said than done, given that even second-language > proficiency has been discouraged traditionally (at least by way of > withholding support), and given also that most of the recording activities, > or at least those that are of use to the average person, relied mostly on > private initiatives and private funding, many a project fizzling out on a > publisher's desk. However, this is a different matter, not to distract from > your point. > > Mike, in my opinion, you too made a valid point in saying that resurrected > languages are not the same as the originals on which they are supposed to be > based. Even though you did not say so with so many words, I add to this > that a resurrected language may be a fairly far cry from the original even > if there *is* a lot of recording. Let me play the devil's advocate and ask, > "So what?" > > Assuming that, for whatever reason, a given population embraces the idea of > resurrecting and reviving its ancestral language, should it really be so > important that the exact "flavor" of the "original" is there? Would the > absence of this "flavor" or the presence of a new "flavor" make this revived > language worthless or less worthy? Probably only if reviving the very same > "flavor" were the main purpose of the exercise. I can envisage no scenario > in the real world in which this would be the case. Usually the main purpose > of reviving languages is to create links with one's ancestral heritage, both > symbolically and practically (e.g., to preserve and continue a literary > tradition and to assure easier access to ancestral literature). > > I would like to go even one step farther by saying that putting enormous > effort into reviving what some people consider to be the ancestral "flavor" > would be likely to lead to overly artificial creations. Surely the purpose > of the exercise should not be to go back in time but to reclaim a part of > one's heritage and make it fit today's and tomorrow's needs. Inevitably, > the history of suppression, oppression, decline and demise will have left > their traces in this supposedly resuscitated "construct." And well they > should, as far as I am concerned. Why *would* you want to try to pretend > that nothing happened between then and now? Suppression, oppression, > decline and demise are parts of that history, as are "foreign" domination > and influences. German and Dutch domination on Lowlands Saxon (Low German) > are a fact and can and should not be magically washed away, nor should > French and Standard Dutch influences on Flemish and Zeelandic, English > influences on Scots, etc. They are parts of those histories. > > Take the case of Hebrew, which Críostóir mentioned. In many ways, Modern > Hebrew is a far cry from biblical and liturgical Hebrew, even from > scholar-specific conversational Hebrew used occasionally in international > settings in pre-modern times. So what? Does it make it worthless and > useless? I don't think so, and I dare say neither do millions of speakers > (including many native speakers) in Israel and around the world. Modern > Hebrew is perfectly well adapted to and suited for all spheres of life here > and now. At the same time there is a strong, albeit it not perfect, link > between it and the ancestral versions. What more would you want? Today's > Israelis and other Hebrew speakers are aware and justly proud of their > ancient heritage. But I hardly think that it worries a lot among them that > their version does not have the same "flavor" as biblical and liturgical > Hebrew. Centuries of diaspora all over the world have left their marks on > Modern Hebrew, or, better to say, are imported flavors, which should come as > a surprise to no one. After all, the act of resurrection was relatively > brief. The processes of reviving and reinvigorating that followed > resurrection were left in large part to the actual users of the language and > thus took place in a fairly "organic" sort of way, planned neologisms often > being abandoned in favor of "organically grown" ones. Hence, there is a > multitude of influences from the languages of the world. That's the reality > and the history of its speakers and their ancestors. Why should it *not* be > there to add new flavors and perfumes? (Sure, for various reasons I > personally would have liked Modern Hebrew to have been influenced more by > Arabic, its Semitic sister language, than by North European languages. > However, predominance of Eurocentrist and "anti-Orientalist" sentiments and > powers are a reality, besides the fact that millions of European immigrants > simply would have had a very hard time acquiring the true Semitic > pronunciation that Ancient Hebrew had. However, this is my personal > feelings and should not be seen as subtracting from my argument.) > > Regards, > Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language survival Tom, Here just briefly, since it's non-Lowlandic. Initially, Modern Hebrew was based on Sephardic Hebrew pronunciation. This means that for instance old was pronounced as /t/ (rather than as Ashkenazic /s/), long /o/ was pronounced as /o/ (rather than as Ashkenazic /oi/), and long /a/ was pronounced as /a/ (rather than as Ashkenazic /o/). This has to do with planning or intentions. What happened in addition is that, as immigrants acquired Hebrew, the language acquired a blend of European "accents," since most immigrants were European, spoke Hebrew as a new language, and dominated in various ways. Not all Sephardim came from North Africa, but many of them came from France, Italy, the Balkans, Turkey, the Americas, etc., and they did not pronounce Hebrew with Arabic accents. When I lived in Israel I knew many immigrants from North African countries whose Hebrew, if they knew it before immigration, sounded "beautiful" to me, much like I imagine Ancient Hebrew to have sounded. They were the only ones who distinguished all the old phonemes that are still represented in writing. However, at least the young ones among them quickly adopted the "European accent," having gotten the message that "Oriental" accents and culture were not to their advantage. I hope I answered your question. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sat Mar 20 22:19:34 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 14:19:34 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.20 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 20.MAR.2004 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mike Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.20 (05) [E] Re: Revival of Cornish Moin Lowlanders, I did not mean to denigrate anybody or anything. In fact, Críostóir´s fascinating story about the revival of Cornish demonstrates what a rewarding and succesful activity language revival can be. (Modern Hebrew of course is another example.) Thanks Críostóir for your posting. I guess my reaction was motivated by the fear that we might fall into complacency: "Let it die, we can always resurrect it later." This would make our efforts seem much more futile than they already are and may stifle them completely. Tschüß, Mike Wintzer ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sat Mar 20 23:08:41 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 15:08:41 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.20 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 20.MAR.2004 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Heiko Evermann Subject: Copenhagen/Koebenhavn Hi everyone, For the name of the Danish capital we have two very different forms: 1) the Danish (original) Form: København. 2) the English form: Copenhagen, or in German: Kopenhagen. (For the origin of København, I have heard that the first part means merchant, and the second means harbour.) The strange thing about the name is the change from v to g, which is highly unusual. Does anyone know how to explain this? Kind regards, Heiko Evermann ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology Moyen, Heiko! > The strange thing about the name is the change from v to g, which is > highly unusual. It isn't as unusual as you may think. Within the West Germanic group it is not prevalent, though there are instances such as Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _blau_ ~ _blaag_ (and Dutch _blauw_) 'blue'. When it comes to this phenomenon, you need to throw /v/ and /w/ into one category. (In such cases they may even be allophones.) This alternation between /g/ and /v~w/ is quite noticeable within the North Germanic group. Note for example Danish _dag_ being pronounced [da:G] ~ [da:w] etc. (hence the spelling or in Jutish). Note also the word for 'sea' or 'ocean' in North Germanic: Swedish _hav_, Danish _hav_ ([haw]), Norwegian _hav_, Icelandic _haf_, Old Norse _haf_, versus the word for 'pasture' or 'garden': Swedish _hage_, Danish _have_ (['ha:və]), Norwegian _hage_, Icelandic _hagi_, Old Norse _hagi_, and now compare these with West Germanic cognates such as German _Hag_, Dutch/LS _haag_ and English _haw_! This /g/ ~ /v~w/ alternation is very prevalent in other language groups and families, such as in Turkic and other Altaic languages, where /w/ frequently alternates with uvular (postvelar) /G/; e.g., _taG_ ~ _taw_ ~ _tau_ 'mountain'. I think this has something to do with a tendency toward lip rounding while pronouncing voiced velars and uvulars in some language varieties. However, note the very word for 'harbor' in North Germanic: Swedish _hamn_, Danish _havn_ ([haw|n]), Dano-Norwegian _havn_, Icelandic _höfn_, Old Norse _hǫfn_. Not a /g/ in sight! I often wonder if _Kopenhagen_ is derived from foreign, perhaps Middle Saxon, reanalysis of _havn_ 'harbor' as _hag-en_ 'the _hag_ (haw?)'. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sun Mar 21 23:32:02 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 15:32:02 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.21 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 21.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Luc Hellinckx Subject: Phonology Beste Heiko, A /v/ being pronounced /g/ might indeed not be so unusual. We have a group of so called "Dender-dialecten" in Brabantish, where this is quite common. Dutch _houden_ (_hold_ (E)) becomes _(h)aven_ in Brabantish, but _(h)agen_ in that group for example. Same goes for _d(o)uwen_ (D) (_push_ (E)), which is _daven_ or _däven_ in (B), but _dagen_ along the Dender river. Greetings, Luc Hellinckx ---------- From: Heinrich Becker Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.20 (07) [E] Heiko and all, Koebnhavn = pronounced Koebenhaun; in Swedish Köpenhamn I's just the the typical way of Danish Pronounciation. The word 'hav' spoken hau can also mean garden. The word trav = trot, spoken "trau". Havnegryn = oatflakes "haunegryn" The pronunciation of Danish seems to foreigneres because of the reduction of vocals and diphtongs as well as the use of click and gulp sounds exotic and has no example in other Germanic languages exept the Danish influenced dialect in Skane on the other side of the Oeresund. That's what Danish is about. Otherwise there would be even less difference to Swedish. Regards Heinrich Becker ---------- From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.20 (07) [E] What is funny in Danish and Jutish is that Copenhagen Danish often has w/u where Jutish has G or x, and the other way around. I tried finding some good examples...but I didn't really succeed. Danish Western Jutish Southern Jutish tog [tow'] [to:G] [tOx] toget [to(j|G)@D] [E to:G] ([to:GEd]) [E tOx] dag [da', da:(G)] [daw] ([da, da:G]) [daw] dage [da:(G)@] [da:.u:] - kbh [køb at nhAun] [kjøunhAun] [k(j)øf at nhAun] sprog ([sprou]) [sproG] [sprOx] > This alternation between /g/ and /v~w/ is quite noticeable within the North > Germanic group. Note for example Danish _dag_ being pronounced [da:G] ~ > [da:w] etc. (hence the spelling or in Jutish). Note also the > word for 'sea' or 'ocean' in North Germanic: Swedish _hav_, Danish _hav_ > ([haw]), Norwegian _hav_, Icelandic _haf_, Old Norse _haf_, versus the word > for 'pasture' or 'garden': Swedish _hage_, Danish _have_ (['ha:və]), > Norwegian _hage_, Icelandic _hagi_, Old Norse _hagi_, and now compare these > with West Germanic cognates such as German _Hag_, Dutch/LS _haag_ and > English _haw_! ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sun Mar 21 23:33:21 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 15:33:21 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language Survival" 2004.03.21 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 21.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.20 (06) [E] Mike Wintzer wrote: "I guess my reaction was motivated by the fear that we might fall into complacency: 'Let it die, we can always resurrect it later.' This would make our efforts seem much more futile than they already are and may stifle them completely." I agree. Complacency is the worst sin of the endangered language community. I have always held that we tend to take a minimalist approach to language retention, transmission and rights - how many Lowland languages (or any others, for that matter) are actually taught in nurseries (kindergarten), and primary and secondary schools as the main 'immersion' subject of instruction? Endangered languages are lucky to be taught as a 'foreign' language subject, especially in countries such as France where the very idea of 'regional' languages is perceived by the state as treachery to the republic. Too often language enthusiasts wait for the go ahead, for permission, from a distant central government that couldn't care less about any endangered language, because they don't want to be seen as trouble-making, disloyal extremists. In the mean time, our languages are rarely taught, rarely used in the public domain, and almost totally subordinated to the state language. Complacency is a perfidious thing indeed. Criostóir. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sun Mar 21 23:51:13 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 15:51:13 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.21 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 21.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.18 (07) [E] Ron wrote: > > We need a book like this for Lowlands Saxon (Low German) as well, folks. Reinhard, you have probably already covered this point, but what differentiates Low Saxon languages from Low German ones? Ben ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Ben, Let me try to put this in a nutshell. (And, please, everyone, feel free to chime in!) "Low German" is a very ambiguous term. It can mean any of three things: (1) A language branch within West Germanic. This has two sub-branches: (1) Low(lands) Franconian (now Dutch, Zeelandic, Flemish, Afrikaans, etc.) and (2) Low(lands) Saxon (now the Lowlands Saxon dialects that have Old Saxon as their common ancestor). (2) The "Low German" dialects of Germany, a catch-all name for all Low Franconian and Low Saxon dialects used in that specific country and in what in the past used to be eastern regions under German dominance. (This includes the Mennonite dialects.) (3) The Lowlands Saxon dialects only, including or excluding those used in the Netherlands. (Many of those German people that do recognize that the dialects of the Eastern Netherlands are at least closely related to those of Northern Germany but at the same time refuse to call the ones in Germany "Low(lands) Saxon" often refer to those of the Netherlands by their Dutch name "Nedersaksisch" instead of German "Niedersächsisch," making this a very silly name game.) The traditional genealogical model in German academia is "Old Saxon > Middle Low German > Modern Low German." So, the Saxon language magically becomes "German" at one point in time. Noticing the inconsistency of this, some people (probably those relying on German government funding) started consistently "erring" on the side of "German" by using the model "Old Low German > "Middle Low German > Modern Low German," with reference to the Saxon-based dialects. So the Saxon language has been renamed entirely to make it German, and there is no more mention of "Saxon." I hope this helped. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 22 17:58:15 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 09:58:15 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.22 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Allison Turner-Hansen Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.20 (02) [E] Dear Lowlanders, In respect of one part of Frederic's question below, the voiced quality of the medial consonant of the word for seven, I would like to say that I think we're dealing here with Verner's law. Verner's law explains the exceptions to Grimm's Law. According to Verner, the Indo-European sounds p,t, k, kw yield voiced outcomes in Gmc. (instead of the voiceless spirants expected under Grimm's Law) when non-initial, and when the Indo-European accent did not fall on the immediately preceding syllabic sound. In this word the accent is reconstructed for the second syllable. In Proto-Germanic there was the voiced spirant, then, which hardened up to a stop in some dialects. I think the change from fricative to stop started in the south and moved in waves to the north, leaving lowlands languages less affected. There are other wierd things about the word seven in Gmc, though, like the lack of t: Latin had septem, Skt. sapta, Gk hepta. I hope you're all doing well! Allison Turner-Hansen > From: Frédéric Baert > Subject: morphology > > Hi to everybody > > I have a question in mind : > I know about the first germanic sound shift and about the high german sound > shift. But I can't understand something : to the english word "seven", > dutch/flemish "zeven" correpond german "sieben", french "sept", > griek "hepta" or something like that. So lowlands languages seem to have > a "v" in place of a "b" in high german and a "p" in other european > languages. Kind of sound shift in lowlands languages. I think also about > english/dutch/flemish "half" german "halb" (I think). English "self", > flemish "zelve" and "zelvst" but german "selbst". Perhaps english "answer" > but dutch/flemish "antooren/antworen". > I'm sorry for eventual orthograph mistakes. > I did never read about this phenomenon. Can you give me informations about > it ? > Thank you > Frédéric Baert > > ---------- > > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Phonology > > Hi, Frédéric! > > Lowlands Saxon (Low German) has either /v/ or /b/ in such instances, > depending on the dialect. (It is /b/ in the Lower Elbe region, for > instance.) In Old Saxon, such instances are written with a barred "b" > (<ƀ>), which may mean that it was pronounced as a bilabial fricative, much > like Modern Spanish and . > > Regards, > Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: Brooks, Mark Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.20 (07) [E] Heiko wrote: "For the origin of København, I have heard that the first part means merchant..." This is funny, because in my own peculiar folk etymology I always thought the "Koeben" and "Copen" meant "copper" as in "Copperhaven." I was analysing it as "cobre" in Spanish and copper in English. I don't remember other languages' word for copper, but I remember they were all similar. Now, that analysis fit nicely with the fact that so many of the roofs of the main buildings there are made from copper. Mark ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 22 17:59:56 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 09:59:56 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.22 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Language varieties Hi Ben, In short, Low German is: Low Franconian: - Dutch - Afrikaans - Zeelandic, (Western) Flemish etc. - A small area around Kleve, which is not Low Saxon, but closer related to Dutch dialects like Brabantish (Brabants) Low Saxon: - all dialects ranging from the Veluwe region in the Netherlands to the German-Polish border High German is: - Standard German (Hochdeutsch) - Luxemburgish (Letzebuergesch) - Bavarian (?) - etc. Limburgish does not really fit in here, it is a kind of transition area between Low and High German, as well as Low and Middle Franconian: Through the years, Limburgish has had a lot of Low Franconian influences (especially from Brabant and, later on, from Holland and Flanders). Originally, the area around Cologne (Köln) was very important though. The German dialects around Cologne and further south towards Luxemburg and Hessen are called Middle Franconian. This Franconian area runs all the way to the area around Nürnberg (!), I believe. So, except the differences between Low and High German, there is also the case of Low, Middle and High Franconian, to make it even more complicated. But, to come back to one of your earlier question: the Bernrather line is the dividing line between p/f (lopen/laufen), p/pf (appel/apfel) and k/ch (maken/machen). In addition, there is also the Ürdinger line, which marks the difference between ik/ich. Dialects north of both those lines are considered Low German, dialects south of these two lines are considered High German. Limburgish is situated right in between those two dialectical lines, by the way. Regards, Mathieu ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 22 18:26:16 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 10:26:16 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.22 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Jan Strunk Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.20 (05) [E] Hi, let me throw in my two cents... > Mike Wintzer wrote: > "I suspect that this is wishful thinking. In the best of cases what you can > reconstruct is the skeleton of a language because that is what you can > record, but the gist, the flavor, the perfume of a language will be gone > forever with its last speaker. What you resurrect is something else. It > shares vocabulary and grammar with its ancestor, but not the soul." Cristoir wrote: > It all rather depends on how one goes about reviving a language. My > background is Cornish and Irish - two languages that have seen strong and > successful revival movements over the last fifty years and the last twenty > years especially. There are now more people with capabilities in Cornish and > Irish, and more native speakers (all brought to pass through the revival > movement) than a hundred years ago. I would rather language revival was > attempted - no matter how imperfect - than denigrated. All language planning > is, to some extent, "wishful thinking". Wishes are what provide the > motivation to speak ancestral languages once again. > > Mike implies that revived languages are necessarily inauthentic, lacking the > "the gist, the flavour, the perfume". This is unfair and untrue: it depends > on how you set about reviving a language. Cornish is a good example of the > two extremes in doing this. There are, in fact (as I suspect is well known > here) three (actually, four) variants of Cornish. I have to agree with Mike although I am not sure what he means with perfume and flavor. But the thing is that language revitalization will probably have a hard time (even if there is an unbroken line of second language speakers) to revive all the very important but yet unconscious facts about language use, such factors as modern linguistics hardly even begins to explore and lay persons do not usually think about at all. Let me give some examples: Factors that trigger word order variation and the choice between two alternating construction like the dative alternation in English: "I give him the book" vs. "I give the book to him". These depend on quite complicated factors and are often only statistical tendencies. Yet, if you do not use such alternations correctly, I guess that native speakers will soon notice that there is something odd about the way you talk. Phonological phrasing and stress are probably not easy to teach or even record either. Something that can be recorded, but still gets eroded first under the influence of official languages are the idiomaticity of the language and collocational preferences. With collocational preferences I mean things like: you say "red wine" but not "purple wine", etc. What strikes me most about the erosion of Low Saxon is that the native idioms and collocations often get lost and are replaced by German and Dutch calques. I think this really makes the Low Saxon varieties on the German and Dutch side of the border quite distinct from each other. So, I think that if your objective is to authentically revive a language, you are probably bound to fail. But if you think (as I do, too) that a revival naturally leaves its mark on a language and is an important part of its "future history" than you can acknowledge that and still be successful in reviving a language if your objective is to build up a new community of speakers and connect them to the local linguistic past. Kumpelmente! Jan jstrunk at stanford.edu ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language survival Folks, I keep contending that continued or revived languages are never truly "authentic." For one thing, all languages keep evolving and changing, adapting to new places and circumstances. This tends to be only more obvious and "dramatic" in cases of resurrected and revived languages, as well as in cases of transplanted languages. For example, Yiddish in the Americas and under Soviet domination has undergone some striking changes even where folks picked up where their parents and grandparents stopped. As far as I am concerned, this is all right, does not make for inferior or weakened varieties but for varieties that demonstrate the adaptibility of the language. Another notable case in point is English. During the French-dominated Norman occupation of Britain, English came to be seriously weakened to the point of being a threatened language. It came to be massively influenced by French within a relatively short time, so much so that at the end of the occupation those who knew English could not or could barely even read (pre-occupation) Old English texts. Medieval Norman French was the language of power, and it came to be adopted as the first or preferred language of ma ny a Briton, so that the number of English speakers dwindled rapidly. It was thanks to the efforts of a relatively small number of activists, notable among them being Cornish scholars (whose ancestral Celtic language had already suffered serious blows under English power), that English came to be reinvigorated after the end of Norman occupation. However, it was now a very different creature compared with English of before the Norman Conquest. Yet, what is important is that it survived and that in the process it was, though less Germanic, strengthened and enriched in a number of ways, as well as morphologically and lexically flexible enough to adapt to new environments as it spread to the "New World." Kumpelmenten ook vun my. Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 22 21:36:37 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:36:37 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.22 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.22 (01) [E] Kiøbenhaffn/københavn dan. kiøbe/købe ~ nds/nld. kopen which comes from Latin caupo dan. haffn/havn ~ nds/nld. haven mearning harbor Copper is kobber (pronounced like [kOu@]) in Danish. Kenneth > Heiko wrote: > "For the origin of København, I have heard that the first part means > merchant..." > > This is funny, because in my own peculiar folk etymology I always thought > the "Koeben" and "Copen" meant "copper" as in "Copperhaven." I was > analysing it as "cobre" in Spanish and copper in English. I don't remember > other languages' word for copper, but I remember they were all similar. > Now, that analysis fit nicely with the fact that so many of the roofs of the > main buildings there are made from copper. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 22 21:43:18 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:43:18 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.22 (05) [E/German] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.22 (02) [E] > From: Mathieu. van Woerkom > Subject: Language varieties > But, to come back to one of your earlier question: the Bernrather line is the dividing line between p/f (lopen/laufen), p/pf (appel/apfel) and k/ch (maken/machen). In addition, there is also the Ürdinger line, which marks the difference between ik/ich. Dialects north of both those lines are considered Agree for ik/ich (Ürdingen) and maken/machen (Benrath). Do not agree for Appel/Apfel since this isogloss is frequently used for separating Lothringisch from Alsatian. In the Luxembourgish dictionary: - (French) pomme: --> Apel, plural Äppel I am not sure for lopen/laufen. Luxembourgish has: - courir: lafen but - sur: op > Low German, dialects South of these two lines are considered High German. > Limburgish is situated right in between those two dialectical lines, by the way. Let me refer to some maps on my own website(s). You will find similar maps on other places on the web. I actually started publishing on the web in the mid nineties, when i got some space on the CompuServe server. I changed a couple of times from provider and I ended with some pages on one one server and others, still to move, on another server. The main pages start with: http://home-13.tiscali-business.nl/%7Etpm09245/lang/langbel.htm Pages still to move start at: http://www.euro-support.be/langbel/langbel.htm Sorry for the inconvenience, but time fails for... It is my opinion much around these isoglosses has to do with politics. But let's start with the linguistic side: The transition of Low-German to High-German goes in little steps in the West. Some of these steps are used for delimiting dialect areas. An overview of the North-South transition can be found on URL: http://www.euro-support.be/langbel/mapger2.htm When I look in an older Duden Encyclopedia, the ik/ich isogloss (passing through Ürdingen, close to Krefeld in Germany) is used for separating Low-German from Middle-German. This isogloss is not acceptable for Dutch political linguists though, considering Limburgish being a dialect OF Dutch, which is hardly defendable when it would be classified as Middle German (since it falls South of the Ürdiner line) So they went looking for other isoglosses, and they found that the isogloss maken/machen (passing through Bernrath, close to Düsseldorf, in Germany), which bends to the South, virtually along the Dutch-German border, would be more suitable for separating dialects OF Dutch from dialects OF German. cf. map at URL: http://home-13.tiscali-business.nl/%7Etpm09245/lang/lg/li_map/lgo.htm 1 = Bernrather Linie (at the East of the map) 2 = Ürdinger Linie (at the West and North of the map) -- Quote Goossens (in German) on the same URL: Es ist in Marburg eine Tradition geworden zu betonen, daß die Ürdinger Linie die wichtigste Scheide zwischen Hochdeutsch und Niederdeutsch im weiteren Sinne ist, wichtiger als die Bernrather Linie. Dagegen hat sich in Löwen durchgesetzt zu betonen, daß due Ürdinger Linie eine relativ unwichtige Dialectgrenze ist, die sogar wenig geeignet ist, als Kriterium für die Begrenzung von West- und Ostniederfränkisch zu dienen. -- end quote Goossens (is a Limburgian, but was professor on both Universities of Leuven (in Belgium) and of Münster (in Germany) follows the Dutch-Belgian tradition of classifying Limburgish as East-Low-Franconian. Germans rather use: South-Low-Franconian (Südniederfränkisch) for the same group, as e.g. on URL: http://home-13.tiscali-business.nl/%7Etpm09245/lang/lg/li_map/lvr.htm This is just a matter of name-giving, not important, just confusing. While the Dutch linguists use the Bernrather line for defending there "territory", the Limburgish linguists had also a problem with the Ürdinger line, since it includes Brabantish Haspengouw (the Tienen area) at its South-West. So they arranged for a cut-off in the South-West, using the isoglosses at the river Gete (separating the old Duchy of Branant from the old County of Loon). For the defintion of the Gete isoglosses see URL: http://www.euro-support.be/langbel/gete.htm I see the maps are momentarely not properly picked-up on the other page: http://www.euro-support.be/langbel/mapget.htm (Sorry, I will try to arrange that later tonight) So the Ürdinger Linie was rubbed out in the West by the Dutch linguists for including Limburgh in their realm, and by the West-Limburgish linguists for having South-East Brabant kicked out of their territory, a third problem remained: The North of the Dutch province of Limburg was cut-out. The Germans West- of the river Rhine also have a very strong feeling of a single Niederrhein area (the old territories of Kleve/Kleef, Jülich/Gullik/Juliers and Heinsberg). So it became convenient to define someting uniting North and South of the Ürdinger Line (uniting Kleverländish with South/East-Low-Franconian) into the Rhein-Maasländish language area, cf. URL: http://home-13.tiscali-business.nl/%7Etpm09245/lang/lg/li_map/lnr.htm The new limit in the West would become the isogloss houden/halten I don't know if that is a good choice In my West-Limburgish (Vliermaal in the South of Belgian Limburg, at the East, the halten-side, of that line) Dutch / Limburgish from Vliermaal houden / hage ik houd / Ich haach (present tense) jij houdt / Dzjië hat hij houdt / Hië hilt <-- ik hield / Ich heuil (past tense) Hope this clarifies. Regards, Roger ---------- From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. Subject: Addendum Re: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.22 (02) [E] cf. my previous message: > For the defintion of the Gete isoglosses see URL: > http://www.euro-support.be/langbel/gete.htm > I see the maps are momentarely not properly picked-up on the other page: > http://www.euro-support.be/langbel/mapget.htm > (Sorry, I will try to arrange that later tonight) This should be OK now. > The North of the Dutch province of Limburg was cut-out. The Germans West- of > the river Rhine also have a very strong feeling of a single Niederrhein > area (the old territories of Kleve/Kleef, Jülich/Gullik/Juliers and > Heinsberg). Please read: (the old territories of Kleve/Kleef, Geldern and Heinsberg). Regards, Roger ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Thanks a lot, Roger. Here just a couple of explanatory footnotes: > Kleve/Kleef English "Cleves" > Kleverländish English "Cleves (region) ..." > Niederrhein English "Lower Rhine" Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 23 18:50:57 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 10:50:57 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.23 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Language varieties Roger wrote: > > Low German, dialects South of these two lines are considered High > > German. > > Limburgish is situated right in between those two dialectical lines, > > by the way. > > Let me refer to some maps on my own website(s). You will find similar > maps on other places on the web. > > The main pages start with: > http://home-13.tiscali-business.nl/%7Etpm09245/lang/langbel.htm > Pages still to move start at: > http://www.euro-support.be/langbel/langbel.htm Those maps are very nice indeed. I oversimplefied the dialectical borders between Low German and High German a bit, to make it more understandable :-) > It is my opinion much around these isoglosses has to do with politics. I agree, the entire language-dialect-issue has everything to do with politics, hasn't it? After all, why do Dutch linguists stop analyzing the so- called "Dutch dialects" right at the Dutch-German border? (!) They should know better... Why are linguists so fierce in defending the Dutch language-unity, by the way? I'm very sad (or mad?) to see a lot of linguists call Limburgish and the Low Saxon varieties of the Netherlands 'dialects of Dutch', and make that the input of their research, instead of the shared features of the language varieties on both sides of the border. Lots of things have changed for the better, though... regards! Mathieu ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Ha, die Mathieu! I quite agree with what you say above. The same applies to Northern Germany. "Low German" dialects are supposed to magically stop smack east of the German-Netherlands border. (That they nowadays stop at the Danish and Polish borders is based on fact, on the results of political events.) Being hard-pressed by Netherlands citizens having begun to participate in "Low German" literature competitions on the German side (hurray!) and by the evident closeness between the dialects on both sides of the border, some organizations in Germany at least have made some sort of consession by now referring to the dialects on the Netherlands side by the Dutch name "Nedersaksisch." It's a sort of wishy-washy compromise: quasi-acknowledgement of inclusion while avoiding offending those who still stick to the delusion that countries, ethniticities, cultures and languages do or should coincide. We have to be grateful for small blessings, I suppose. This sort of compromise solution is better than the usual rejection, spoken or silent, sometimes even hostile. We mustn't forget that Europe is a very territorial-minded region in which national ideals traditionally quash regional and minority cultures, languages and identities (oh, and beliefs). It seems to me that the majority of Europeans, including those that themselves are adversely affected by this, have been so strongly and so recently conditioned to this sort of nationalist mindset that it will take quite some effort and time to make them embrace unification in the European Union and ratification of the European Language Charter, accepting the dwindling significance of national boundaries. EU, shmee-yoo ... apparently, some people in Germany feel quite threatened by attempts at getting people to (re-)unite across borders. "Suspicious" activities include organizing contacts between Lowlands Saxon ("Low German") speakers across national borders. Also offensive are activities such as those of Lowlands-L that includes Lowlands Saxon but excludes German while putting the former into contact with its genealogically closer relatives outside Germany. Despite official recognition of the language, some people, even native speakers, in Germany seem to think that these are signs of disloyalty or treason, the tip of the iceberg of some sinister, secessionist ploy. In other words, they simply do not get it. On a certain level of consciousness they must be aware that their position is hard to defend and are likely to be eroded. This is when they show their supposed trump card: "You should be careful. Dutch-German relations are still at a very sensitive point, you know ..." -- implying that it is the people in the Netherlands that are the problem. While I do not doubt that there are still plenty of Netherlanders that aren't exactly in love with Germany, I personally have *never* experienced rejection of the idea to increase Lowlands Saxon contacts and collaboration on the part of Lowlands Saxon speakers and writers in the Netherlands, and this involves many people, ages 19 to 84. I have experienced rejection and other sorts of kneejerk reaction only from Germans. I can certainly accept people's personal hesitance with new ideas and their nationalism (as long as it does not involve victimization). What I cannot accept are smoke screens that involve blaming others as an excuse for one's own opinions. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 24 15:21:36 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 07:21:36 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.24 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Steven Hanson Subject: Language Varieties I agree, the entire language-dialect-issue has everything to do with politics, hasn't it? regards! Mathieu It seems to me that the idea of there being a difference between language and dialect is worthless from a linguistic viewpoint. I like to keep in mind that 1) every language is a dialect, and every dialect is a language; 2) a language is a dialect with an army (as has been mentioned before); and 3) Norwegian is Danish spoken in Swedish. All of this serves to show how un-linguistically oriented the idea of dialect and language division is. ---------- From: Pyt Berg Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.23 (01) [E] Dear all, I have to wonder how many of you anglo-saxons truly speak another language such as Dutch? Before "lowering" a language like Dutch to a set of "mechanistic parts". I suggest you go and read some books on the human side of interaction between countries, one's that cover Culture and History. The last contributor who I beleive is German has a far better understanding of the Dutch who have an rather exceptional record for TOLERANCE and understanding of others than many countries. I suggest you read the book entitled " The Island at the centre of the World", and then The Rise and Fall of the Dutch Republic by J Israel. Good luck en Lees Smakelik! Pieter. ---------- From: Helge Tietz Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.23 (01) [E] I can only agree to those comments about nationl borders and languages. In 1989 I sent an article to various local and national German newspapers with the aim to provoke a discussion about "(German-)Reunification - of course?". I moderately mentioned the fact that I am well understood when speaking Low Saxon in the Netherlands and even as far as Flanders while hardly anyone will understand me in Munich or Dresden; there the local people probably believed me to be a foreigner. I asked provokingly "Where is my home then? I am understood in my mother-tongue in Brugge but not in Dresden". The only newspapers to print it were our local Danish newspaper in Flensborg and the local German newspaper. The national newspapers weren't interested in the issue at all, at a time when they themselves were full of united-fatherland romanticism. Many local people supported my idea of cultural borders running conversely to national borders, but the national newspapers and organizations obviously found the idea inconceivable. To doubt the hitherto national cultural identity of the German National State was obviously unbearable to people who should have known better incl. those politicians from the Green party who had the promotion of multi-culturalism as one of their flag-ships. The consequence was that I felt even more alienated from the German State as a whole and could only revert to our Danish-minded family tradition and see myself since then truely and only as a "Sydslesviger". Regards Helge ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 24 17:01:16 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 09:01:16 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.24 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Folks, When I first came across the Scots adjective _draigletie_ 'bedraggled', 'raggety', 'unsightly (from use/wear)', it was like meeting an old acquaintance. I wonder why this is, and perhaps you can help me to find out. Sure, I could have made a mental connection between it and English "draggle," "bedraggled," etc., but I doubt it. In fact, I was so sure that there was the English cognate *"dragglety" that I was surprised to find no such word in English dictionaries. My theory now is that I heard this word used in American and/or Australian dialects, probably based on Scottish English, if not derived from Scots directly. My question thus is if you know of the use of this word in English dialects other than those of Scotland, and, if so, what dialects these are. (I would not be surprised to find it in Northumbrian, given the closeness to Scots of the dialects of that region.) Incidentally, English "draggle" and "draggled" do not appear before the 16th century (then usually spelled , etc., i.e., very Scots-like), which makes me wonder if it is a Scots or Northumbrian loan. The earliest known occurrence of English _bedraggle(d)_ (corresponding to Scots _draigle_, _draigletie_) seems to be from the early 18th century ("Poor Patty Blount, no more be seen Bedraggled in my walks so green," (_Oxford English Dictionary_). These words are related to (_draƽan_ >) "drag" and "draw," with cognates in virtually all Germanic varieties (usually connoting 'to carry'), but I do not think that this is terribly significant within the context of this particular discussion. (Though within a phonological context, Heiko, please note that "draw" is another example of the /g/ > /w/ shift we talked about.) Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 24 19:00:55 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 11:00:55 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.24 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming Subject: "Resources" [E] Some good news here! The Scottish National Dictionary (SND) and the Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue (DOST) are now online at http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/ Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 24 20:17:15 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 12:17:15 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.24 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Tom Maguire Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.24 (01) [E] Lowlands-L wrote: > Dear all, > > I have to wonder how many of you anglo-saxons truly speak another language > such as > Dutch? Before "lowering" a language like Dutch to a set of "mechanistic > parts". I suggest you go and read some books on the human side of > interaction between countries, one's that cover Culture and History. > > The last contributor who I beleive is German has a far better understanding > of the > Dutch who have an rather exceptional record for TOLERANCE and understanding > of others than many countries. I suggest you read the book entitled " The > Island at the centre of the World", and then The Rise and Fall of the Dutch > Republic by J Israel. > > Good luck en Lees Smakelik! > Pieter. Hello All, The use of the word anglo-saxons has always intrigued me. I believe they were a tribe from the coastal area of Northern Europe, (Flanders and Holland?) who crossed the North Sea and made their way west across England. Haven't seen many around in my trips through England, but many people persist to refer to them as if the tribe still existed in the U.K., Australia, New Zealand, Canada or The U.S. I'd also like to believe that the Dutch are very tolerant. The ones who settled in South Africa must have been from a different tribe. Or were they anglo-saxons? Generalisations on this scale surely lead to precious little information. Regards, Tam -- Carpe Diem. -Visit Nlp in Education http://www.xtec.es/~jmaguire -Join Nlp-Education mailto:nlp-education-subscribe at yahoogroups.com -Join Seal-Spain mailto:seal-spain-subscribe at yahoogroups.com ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 24 21:08:24 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 13:08:24 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2004.03.24 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Angie Foley Subject: "Nursery Rhyme" I'm looking for the right words and translation of the following nursery rhyme, or at least I think it's some type of children's verse. My Grandfather used to put us on his knee, bounce us up and down and sing the following (this is as much as I can remember): Pa, pa, pa, pa palli riddem falli riddem bunyam cow _ _ _ _ _ (I can't remember the last stanza) My great grandparents were from the Mecklenburg/Rostock/Schwerin area of Germany. I'd LOVE it if someone could help ! Thank you very much!! ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Songs Hi, Angie! Welcome to Lowlands-L! It's nice to meet you. I do not actually know that song, but I can sort of make out what it means. If I am right, I would guess that the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialect in question is not from Mekelnborg/Mecklenburg (which is where the city of Swerin/Schwerin is) but of Western Pomerania (which is where the city of Rostock is), possibly from farther east, now Northern Poland. I am basing this on features such as _-en_ > _-e_ and _nd_ > _nj_, also found in Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Low German, "Plautdietsch"), which originated at the Vistula Delta of Western Prussia, now Northern Poland. What may make identification more difficult is the possibility of this being in part children's babble. Roughly reconstructed (from your use of English spelling to render sounds you remember, I assume -- * German-based spelling, + English translation): > Pa, pa, pa, pa palli Pappa, Pappa Pale * Pappa, Pappa Pale (~ Pole), + Poppa, Poppa (~ Papa, Papa) Paulie, [could also be onomatopoetic: "pa, pa, pa, pa" for a horse's hoofs] > riddem falli ridd den vale(n), * ritt den (~ dem) Fahle(n) (~ Fohle(n)), + rides the foalie (= little foal), > riddem bunyam cow ridd dey bunde (~ bunje) kou. * ritt de bunte (~ bunje) Koh (~ Kauh). + rides the spotted cow. In German and Lowlands Saxon, _bunt_ (~ _bund_) 'multicolored' tends to mean "spotted" with reference to animals, especially dogs and cows. (So a Holstein cow, which is black and white, is a _bunte kou_.) I hope this has been of some help and you will receive further help, Angie. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 24 22:53:47 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 14:53:47 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2004.03.24 (06) [E/LS/German] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.MAR.2004 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Jan Strunk Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.23 (01) [E] I've just searched the internet to find related "Hoppe, Hoppe, Reiter" rhymes: Here are the results: http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/ernst/appelsch/appel12.htm Inzwischen befinden wir uns bereits bei Nr. 2 des Programms; Appelschnut ist zu Pferde gestiegen. Das Pferd bin ich. Die Aufgabe besteht nun darin, die Literatur der Reiterlieder zu durchhopsen, zum Beispiel »Hoppe hoppe Reiter« und »Hopp hopp Reiterlein« und so weiter, eine väterliche Leistung, die nur derjenige würdigen kann, der weiß, was Embonpoint heißt. Dabei gibt es Literaturwerke, die mindestens sechsmal wiederholt werden müssen, zum Beispiel: Zuck zuck zuck noh Möhlen Roswitha sitt op't Föhlen, Trudel op de bunte Koh Un Rasmus op'n Swanz bitoo. Rid wi all noh Möhlen. »Goden Dag, Froo Möllerin, Wo sett wi unsen Sack denn hin?« »Buten op de Trepp, Mang all de bunten Säck'. Morgen geiht de Möhl; Denn geiht se: Rumpumpel rumpumpel rumpumpel rumpumpel.« (in infinitum.) http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/groth/voergoer/voergo89.htm To Moel Hutt Hutt hutt na Moeleken, Hanne op dat Foeleken, Wite op de bunte Koh - So rid se beid na Moelken to. Hotte nach der Mühlen, Johann auf dem Füllen, Luischen auf der bunten Kuh - So reiten sie beide der Mühle zu. Haven't found more.... Best greetings! Jan Strunk jstrunk at stanford.edu ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Songs Thanks a lot, Jan. Good one! I know the German song "Hoppe hoppe Reiter" quite well from my childhood, and in the meantime I have delighted many a child with it, including children who didn't understand the words. :-) Hoppe, hoppe Reiter! Wenn er fällt, dann schreit er, Fällt er in den Graben, Fressen ihn die Raben, Fällt er in den Sumpf, Macht der Reiter plumps! (Yes, there are many versions of this, but this is the one I know). My translation: Hop, hop, hop, hop, rider. Should he fall, he'd cry. Should he fall into the ditch The ravens would eat him. Should he fall into the swamp The rider'd take a tumble! You sit a child on your knees, facing you, bobbing him or her up and down, holding his or her hands (or bracing him or her with your hands on his or her back if he or she is very little). At the sound of the last word of the last line you let his or her back fall backward, giving him or her the "scare" of the tumble (which all kids love). It isn't terribly different from an Mother Goose rhyme: A farmer went trotting Upon his gray mare; Bumpety, bumpety, bump! With his daughter behind him, So rosy and fair; Lumpety, lumpety, lump! A raven cried "Croak!" And they all tumbled down... Jan, I hope you don't mind me providing English "translations" for the benefit of Angie and others who don't understand. (Lowlands Saxon / Low German) > Zuck zuck zuck noh Möhlen > Roswitha sitt op't Föhlen, > Trudel op de bunte Koh > Un Rasmus op'n Swanz bitoo. > Rid wi all noh Möhlen. > »Goden Dag, Froo Möllerin, > Wo sett wi unsen Sack denn hin?« > »Buten op de Trepp, > Mang all de bunten Säck'. > Morgen geiht de Möhl; > Denn geiht se: Rumpumpel rumpumpel > rumpumpel rumpumpel.« > Trotting to the mill, > Roswitha sitting on the foal, > Trudel (= Gertrud(e)) on the spotted cow > And Rasmus on the tail behind. > We’re riding to the mill. > ”Good day, Mrs. Miller. > Where should we put the bag?” > ”Outside on the stairs, > Among all the colored bags. > The mill will run tomorrow. > That’s when it will go “Rumble, rumble, > Rumble, rumble, rumble, rumble ...” (Lowlands Saxon / Low German) Hutt Hutt hutt na Moeleken, Hanne op dat Foeleken, Wite op de bunte Koh - So rid se beid na Moelken to. (The same in German) Hotte nach der Mühlen, Johann auf dem Füllen, Luischen auf der bunten Kuh - So reiten sie beide der Mühle zu. Trotting to the mill ("millie"), Joanie on the (little) foal (~ filly), Roswitha/Lisa on the spotted cow. That’s how we’re riding off to the mill. Enjoy! Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 25 15:22:20 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:22:20 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2004.03.25 (01) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Rob Hekkers Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2004.03.24 (06) [E/LS/German] Je zou ook eens hier kunnen kijken: http://cf.hum.uva.nl/dsp/ljc/anoniem/vloten/1-07.html Hartelijke groet, Rob Hekkers ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 25 15:24:06 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:24:06 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Georg.Deutsch at esa.int Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.23 (01) [E] Dear LL-readers! Ron wrote: QUOTE .... While I do not doubt that there are still plenty of Netherlanders that aren't exactly in love with Germany, I personally have *never* experienced rejection of the idea to increase Lowlands Saxon contacts and collaboration on the part of Lowlands Saxon speakers and writers in the Netherlands, and this involves many people, ages 19 to 84. I have experienced rejection and other sorts of kneejerk reaction only from Germans. .... QUOTE It is good to read that Ron never experienced such rejections from the Netherlands. However, living in Holland, I do encounter regularly a sort of uneasiness with Dutch once they are confronted with the notion that the border between The Netherlands and Germany is not a clear cut language border. The common Lowland heritage of the two countries often are not known, and if known, often on purpose ignored or even "verdrängt" (repressed), I believe. This is, to my experience, true for a considerably big part of the population here. I would rather think that this attitude is not so much related to the fact that "still plenty of Netherlanders that aren't exactly in love with Germany" but more generally with the - in my perception remarkably widely spread - half conscious feeling, that country (state) and a language area should be the same. As I believe, this is leading to the tendency to e.g. expect or even to "want" that "Austrian" must be a own vernacular and not just "German" and, even more remarkable, the tendency not to accept "Flemish" as the Dutch in Belgium, but to inssist that Flemish is a (close, but) distinct language. (I see also in this context the habit to sub-title in Dutch TV "Flemish" movies.) I wonder, if I am the only one who sees this that way. In any case, for me was the lack of acceptance here of the relation of Dutch with Low Saxon (as long you don't speak with people with special interest or training in languages) a reason to look for LL-L. best reagrds Georg Deutsch ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 25 16:09:41 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 08:09:41 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (023) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Language varieties Georg Deutsch wrote: > even more remarkable, the tendency not to accept "Flemish" as the Dutch > in Belgium, but to inssist that Flemish is a (close, but) distinct > language. (I see also in this context the habit to sub-title in > Dutch TV "Flemish" movies.) > > I wonder, if I am the only one who sees this that way. The subtitling of a Flemish television show is indeed one of the mysteries in Dutch television :-) If certain Flemish dialects or heavy accented parts were subtitled it would be understandable, but no: it is clear Dutch with just a little bit of Flemish accent in it...!!! Anyway, I have hardly ever come across any Dutchman stating that Flemish is a distinct language. Mostly you hear stuff like: "Belgium is very nice, and also very easy because you can speak Dutch, even in Brussels!" In the other side, I doubt that the average Dutchman knows of the existance of a Low Saxon language group, let alone the fact that this language crosses the German border all the way to Danmark and Poland! regards, Mathieu ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Thanks, Georg and Mathieu. I suppose that what you related to us confirms that in Europe four things are still widespread in this regard: (1) ignorance regarding diversity, (2) discomfort at the thought that nation, ethnicity, culture and language rarely coincide (in detail), (3) that diversity is not a burden but an asset, (4) and that cross-border sharing of heritage (minority or otherwise) does not need to threaten national integrity but can be utilized for everyone's benefit (as long as this is done without chauvinism and territorial designs). In my opinion, this can only be changed by means of educational efforts, not just on regional and national levels but on an international level. Although only on a modest scale, this is what Lowlands-L is really about. At the very least, it brings folks together and allows them to discover what they have in common. Perhaps it is a good sign that some people feel uneasy about our goals and activities. Might it be a sign that we are doing something right, are even getting somewhere? Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 25 16:58:19 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 08:58:19 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.25 (04) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Folks, The National Library of Scotland has a website very well worth repeated visits (http://www.nls.uk/). One of the presentations I wholehearted recommend is calle "Scotland Pages" (http://www.nls.uk/scotlandspages/), and excellent source for matters concerning Scotland's written history. I am particularly taken by the in my opinion superb Robert Burns presentation (http://www.nls.uk/burns/). The pages (accessible via the menu on the right) come with special bits of information and some with sound snippets. You can access those by clicking on the icons underneath the main heading of a page. This well-designed presentation certainly tempts me to travel to Edinburgh to visit National Library of Scotland. Bravo! Bi fegs, weel duin, fowk! Whitwey no parallel versions in Scots an Gaelic an aw? That wad make the wab steid trulins Scottish an wad shawcase the hamewart tongues o Bonnie Scotland tae the warld an aw. An wantin unner "Scots Abroad" (http://www.nls.uk/catalogues/online/scotsabroad/) is a wee jot anent Scots sattlin in "Prussia" (thir days Northren Poland and Kaliningrad, Russia). Aye, an a page anent "Flemish" sattlers in Scotland an aw. Guidwull tae aw! Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 25 21:14:30 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 13:14:30 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (05) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.24 (04) [E] >>From the Original Message ----- From: "Lowlands-L" To: Sent: 24 March 2004 10:17 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.24 (04) [E] Dear All: Alighting on the throwaway line on the Afrikaners quoted below, I note that others have mentioned before that if the surviving ethnic wealth & cultural variety of neighbouring races & peoples - their mere survival - is any indicator, then the Afrikaner measures very well against other colonising races from North-Western Europe. Consider e.g. the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Ceylon, Batavia, South Molucca, etc. By the way, we call ourselves 'Diets'. is this pertinent? As - as it were - among us Anglo-Saxons (Remember, the English were culturally isolated & alienated by the Norman-French, as the Scots ((a thrawn race)) were not). Even so, in the English Sailor's Argot all seamen from the NW European Littoral were dubbed 'Dutch' - German, Nederlands or Flemish citizenship was simply not an issue. I think they were correct. Is this not more pertinent to our concerns with language than the trend of this discussion? Let us get back to Diets! > I'd also like to believe that the Dutch are very tolerant. The ones who > settled in South Africa must have been from a different tribe. Or were > they anglo-saxons? Yrs Respectfully, M Dreyer. ---------- From: rick denkers Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (02) [E] Moyen Georg, > However, living in Holland, I do encounter regularly a sort of uneasiness > with Dutch once they are confronted with the notion that the border between > The Netherlands and Germany is not a clear cut language border. > The common Lowland heritage of the two countries often are not known, and if > known, often on purpose ignored or even "verdrängt" (repressed), I believe. > This is, to my experience, true for a considerably big part of the > population > here. With living in Holland i do presume that you mean one of the provinces Holland . People from the West are most certainly ignoring the fact that germans and Dutch people are from the same ancestors. They do like to see themselves as a "unique nation" with no ties to what is nowadays known as Germany. For us, the people in the east its a whole different ballgame. We do speak (allmost) the same language as the German people on the other side of the border , and a lot of us have german ancestors (Where i live there are whole communities with a German background). In fact they are sometimes litterally our neighbours. So we are aware of our roots. We are not exactly "in love" with the people from the West. Much in the same way as that the People from the West have against Germans..... But most of all it is that we are considered as "boertjes" with our funny accents..... And "boertjes" is not ment as a compliment... But do bear in mind that there is also the "Big brother, younger bother" effect. A few weeks ago i was enjoying a holliday in Denmark and to my suprise the Danes do seem to have the same attitude against the Germans as the Dutch have. > but more generally with the - in my perception remarkably widely spread - > half conscious feeling, that country (state) and a language area should be > the same. I do think that it is quite handy to speak one language. But i would rather see it as an "esperanto" with respect for local languages. And that is regrettably not the case in the Netherlands. It is that we are s Why is it possible to accept that Frisian is a language and Limburgish or Grunnegs not? > As I believe, this is leading to the tendency to e.g. expect or even to > "want" that "Austrian" must be a own vernacular and not just "German" and, > even more remarkable, the tendency not to accept "Flemish" as the Dutch in > Belgium, but to inssist that Flemish is a (close, but) distinct language. (I > see also in this context the habit to sub-title in Dutch TV "Flemish" > movies.) Flemish is not for all Dutch people easy to follow. For us Notherners for instance.. You can also look at it from a positive point of view. The relation between the Dutch and the Flemish has allways been a "difficult" relation. Thatswhy , when it comes to the Flemish, Dutch people try to be as diplomatic as they can be. > In any case, for me was the lack of acceptance here of the relation of Dutch > with Low Saxon (as long you don't speak with people with special interest or > training in languages) a reason to look for LL-L. Welkom! Hier zal niemand ontkennen dat er banden bestaan tussen het saksisch en het Nederlands ;-] En ik ben in ieder geval zeer zeker geen Linguist. Grout'n, Rick Denkers ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 25 23:07:39 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:07:39 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.25 (06) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.MAR.2004 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. Subject: Resources: Afrikaans literature It is hard to find modern literature in Afrikaans in Belgian bookshops. Gramadoelas is a specialized importer in Belgium. I get some announcements from time to time, as e.g. the one below. I think the whole thing is run by just one lady. She participated at the Antwerp Boekenbeurs a couple of years ago and I was amazed by the variety of Afrikaans books she had in stock at that moment. It was courageous of her, since several years before the old importer of Afrikaans literature Meyers & Trefois was kicked-out of the Boekenbeurs and saw his stand destroyed by some leftist youngsters. At that time, for some people, promoting Afrikaans literature was synonym with promoting apartheid. Just for info. I have no shares in Gramadoelas. The first book below is clearly in English. Regards, Roger PS. I think their website is a bit neglected. It is at: http://user.online.be/gramadoelas/ ----- Original Message ----- From: gramadoelas To: roger.thijs at euro-support.be Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 10:20 PM Subject: leestips van Gramadoelas! Beste klant, De jongste maanden zijn er opnieuw een aantal interessante boeken in Zuid-Afrika verschenen. Warm aanbevolen zijn: A Change of Tongue door Antjie Krog, uitgegeven bij Random House, Johannesburg 2003 (27€) Antjie Krog is natuurlijk geen onbekende meer. Zowel met haar poëzie – haar laatste bundel Kleur kom nooit alleen nie was een ongeëvenaard succes - als met haar proza heeft ze een ijzersterke reputatie opgebouwd. Onlangs verscheen A Change of Tongue, de opvolger van het ontstellende Country of My Skull. Het is ook letterlijk een vervolg erop. In dit lijvige werk van 376 pagina’s ontgint Antjie Krog het transformatieproces in Zuid-Afrika. Het land is als een tongvis die om te kunnen overleven een radicale transformatie ondergaat. Eenzelfde verandering moet Zuid-Afrika doormaken. Het land van het verleden dat in Country of My Skull in al zijn ontluisterende gruwzaamheid onthuld werd, moet verlaten worden. Kern van de omwenteling is de ruimte die aan de ander geboden wordt, de gelegenheid die hem geboden wordt om zijn verhaal te doen. Antjie Krog laat de stemmen van haar land aan het woord komen. Ze vertellen hun verhalen waardoorheen Antjie Krog haar eigen verhaal weeft. Het boek wordt daardoor tot een rijkgeschakeerd mozaïek waarin de hoofdtoon die van warme menselijkheid is. A Change of Tongue is een gepassioneerd pleidooi van een schrijfster die zich in haar literaire werk maar ook in haar leven onverdroten blijft inzetten voor de totstandkoming van een nieuw, kleurenblind Zuid-Afrika. Een overstelpend en aangrijpend boek. Die buiteveld van John Miles, uitgegeven bij Human & Rousseau, Kaapstad 2003 (19€) Met Die buiteveld verbreekt John Miles een jarenlange stilte. Zijn vorige roman Kroniek uit die doofpot verscheen in 1991 en maakte toen heel wat ophef. Ondertussen heeft Miles zich teruggetrokken op een ‘plaas’ in het Kaapse binnenland. Waar Kroniek uit die doofpot een uitermate scherpe aanklacht tegen de apartheid is, behandelt Die buiteveld de complexe problematiek van de schuld en de verantwoordelijkheid van het individu. De roman speelt dus in op trauma’s waarmee het huidige Zuid-Afrika te kampen heeft maar dan op een onrechtstreekse manier omdat de plaats van handeling grotendeels Portugal is. Het hoofdpersonage is een zekere Smerski, een eenzaat die zijn achtergrond, waarin er een aantal minder fraaie dingen gebeurd zijn, maar met mondjesmaat prijsgeeft. Chris van der Merwe vat de thematiek van de roman als volgt samen: “Die buiteveld is ’n radikale bevestiging van individualisme en ’n uiterste protes teen alle vorme van onderdrukking van die vryheid van die individu. Smerski sê nee vir alle meesternarratiewe, vir dié van apartheid sowel as vir dié van die nuwe heersers; hy verwerp alle vorme van kollektiwiteit wat die vryheid van die enkeling ondermyn.” Over het boek zijn de meningen verdeeld. Volgens Ampie Coetzee is Die buiteveld de sterkste roman die Miles geschreven heeft. Willie Burger is een andere mening toegedaan. Hij is van oordeel dat John Miles in deze roman een conservatieve ideologische koers vaart: “Die roman lewer ’n belangrike maar problematiese bydrae tot die debat oor groeps- en individuele identiteit en morele verantwoordelikheid.” Het debat is nog niet gesloten. Tot verhaal kom door Abraham H. De Vries, uitgegeven bij Human & Rousseau, Kaapstad 2003 (16,50€) De jongste verhalenbundel van Abraham De Vries is een hoogvlieger. Abraham De Vries is gezouten in het vak; deze bundel is reeds zijn achttiende. En opnieuw toont de schrijver zijn meesterlijke kunnen, zoals reeds uit de ingenieuze titel Tot verhaal kom duidelijk blijkt. Abraham De Vries slaagt er als geen ander in om een welbepaalde atmosfeer te scheppen: melancholie, verlangen, de hoop op een mirakel, spijt, het onverbiddelijke voorbijgaan van het leven enz. De meeste verhalen spelen zich in het nieuwe Zuid-Afrika af. De personages staan er niet onverdeeld positief tegenover. De Vries onderzoekt wat het betekent de oude zekerheden te verliezen en met een andere realiteit geconfronteerd te worden. Het besef van onvolkomenheid en gemis, van onvermogen en onmacht is alomtegenwoordig. Dit zijn verhalen � la nouvelle cuisine: niet de kwantiteit maar de kwaliteit overweegt. Met hun geraffineerde tekstuur, hun subtiele gelaagdheid en hun stilistische verfijning zullen ze ongetwijfeld het smaakpalet van de meest gesofisticeerde lezer kunnen bevredigen. Vergenoeg door Marita van der Vyver, uitgegeven bij Tafelberg, Kaapstad 2003 (18,50€) De jongste roman van Marita van der Vyver, die met Griet Skryf ’n sprokie, Wegkomkans en Griet kom weer haar schrijverssporen verdiend heeft, is een lekker-lees-boek, hoewel deze karakterisering misschien niet helemaal accuraat is. Daarvoor is de stof die behandeld wordt toch wel wat te zwaarwichtig. Adèle Bothma lijdt aan kanker. Ze woont in Vergenoeg, een onooglijk dorpje. Haar twee dochters, San en Bella, staan haar in haar laatste weken bij. Dit leidt uiteraard tot het uitpluizen van de verhouding tussen moeder en dochters en tussen de dochters onderling. De grote levensthema’s komen aan de orde zonder dat de roman evenwel onder de ondraaglijk zwaarte van het bestaan bezwijkt. Van der Vyver weet als geen ander boeiende personages op te roepen en een onderhoudend verhaal te schrijven. Aangename lectuur zonder meer. Met vriendelijke groeten, Vera gramadoelas at online.be ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 26 00:31:01 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 16:31:01 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.MAR.2004 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Hondshoven Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (05) [D/E] Hello, I was struck in the text below by the sentence: "we call ourselves Diets". I can't imagine anyone in Flemish Belgium and in the Netherlands today who would call his language "Diets" . This an historical term denoting the tongue spoken in the Middle Ages by the Flemish and the Dutch. To people of my generation Diets is, to say the least, a suspect word. It is a (politically) "loaded" term, since it was - in the thirties and during the second world war - a preferential word with ultra-rightist people striving for a Flemish secession from Belgium or for a union of Flanders and the Netherlands in a kind of "new order". Diets is a word that has unfortunately been abused and as such has fallen out of favour. I am under the impression that today even right-wing people are reticent to use it. It goes without saying that I do not want to imply anything improper in connection with the author of the text below. Roger H. -------Original Message------- From: lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET Date: Thursday, March 25, 2004 22:14:44 To: LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (05) [D/E] From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.24 (04) [E] >From the Original Message ----- From: "Lowlands-L" To: Sent: 24 March 2004 10:17 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.24 (04) [E] Dear All: Alighting on the throwaway line on the Afrikaners quoted below, I note that others have mentioned before that if the surviving ethnic wealth & cultural variety of neighbouring races & peoples - their mere survival - is any indicator, then the Afrikaner measures very well against other colonising races from North-Western Europe. Consider e.g. the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Ceylon, Batavia, South Molucca, etc. By the way, we call ourselves 'Diets'. is this pertinent? As - as it were - among us Anglo-Saxons (Remember, the English were culturally isolated & alienated by the Norman-French, as the Scots ((a thrawn race)) were not). Even so, in the English Sailor's Argot all seamen from the NW European Littoral were dubbed 'Dutch' - German, Nederlands or Flemish citizenship was simply not an issue. I think they were correct. Is this not more pertinent to our concerns with language than the trend of this discussion? Let us get back to Diets! > I'd also like to believe that the Dutch are very tolerant. The ones who > settled in South Africa must have been from a different tribe. Or were > they anglo-saxons? Yrs Respectfully, M Dreyer. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 26 15:19:53 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 07:19:53 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.26 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: ezinsser at tiscali.co.za Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (07) [E] Hello all, With reference to Roger Hondshoven's comments on Mark Dreyer's reference to being 'Diets': The Afrikaans language has its origins in the 'Nederdietse' grouping and you are quite right that this word has medieval roots, as probably our surnames. You might know too that the root form is also prevalent in the names of languages, such as Plautdietsch, Schwiizerdütsch/Schwyzertütsch, as in names of churches such as Nederduits So & So. It's unclear to me what is so 'loaded' and why you should be so easily 'struck'. Cultural history, as diversity, is a good thing and should be embraced with courage :-) Sterkte, Elsie Zinßer, > I was struck in the text below by the sentence: "we call ourselves > Diets". I can't imagine anyone in Flemish Belgium and in the Netherlands today who would call his language "Diets" . This an historical term denot> ing > the tongue spoken in the Middle Ages by the Flemish and the Dutch. To peo> ple > of my generation Diets is, to say the least, a suspect word. It is a > (politically) "loaded" term, since it was - in the thirties and during th> e > second world war - a preferential word with ultra-rightist people strivi> ng > for a Flemish secession from Belgium or for a union of Flanders and the > Netherlands in a kind of "new order". Diets is a word that has unfortunat> ely > been abused and as such has fallen out of favour. I am under the impressi> on > that today even right-wing people are reticent to use it. It goes without > saying that I do not want to imply anything improper in connection with t> he > author of the text below. > > Roger H. ---------- From: Éric Plourde Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (07) [E] Greetings all, This thread has become quite interesting to me as I see that language and identity are still intertwined in humans' psyche and even in people who vie for diversity of language in a political entity that is supposed to become a more plurilingual society i.e. the European Union. The bare facts is that there existed before the independence of Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany a dialectal continuum in Northern Europe (on the Southern Coast of the North Sea) where mutual comprehension was far greater with the contiguous dialects. Time has changed the situation where the dialects comprised in Northern germany were almost wiped out, whereas some dialects became national languages (Netherlands and Belgium). What strikes me in this thread is the quick jump to equate language and ethnic background (I have seen the term "race" used once) as if the "genetic" links between the various Germanic language family and the "genetic" links between the people living in the states with Germanic tongues as official languages are one of the same. We have to always bear in mind that there has been immense changes in the population of Europe since that peninsula (for me Europe is not a continent, just a part of Eurasia) is easily travelled from West to East and East to West. Also, where the Germanic language speakers have left their mark, linguistically, ethnically and economically, on all of the countries bordering the North Sea/Baltic sea area, diversity still prevails. As for people speaking the languages and dialects of the "Lowlands" continuum, let's hope that distance does not hinder their mutual comprehension and that their different genetic background (Afrikaner, Indonesian ascendency, Turkish, etc.) can be used to fuel more interrogations and less dissent. Thanks and Happy Spring. Eric > From: Roger Hondshoven > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (05) [D/E] > > Hello, > > I was struck in the text below by the sentence: "we call ourselves > Diets". I can't imagine anyone in Flemish Belgium and in the Netherlands > today who would call his language "Diets" . This an historical term denoting > the tongue spoken in the Middle Ages by the Flemish and the Dutch. To people > of my generation Diets is, to say the least, a suspect word. It is a > (politically) "loaded" term, since it was - in the thirties and during the > second world war - a preferential word with ultra-rightist people striving > for a Flemish secession from Belgium or for a union of Flanders and the > Netherlands in a kind of "new order". Diets is a word that has unfortunately > been abused and as such has fallen out of favour. I am under the impression > that today even right-wing people are reticent to use it. It goes without > saying that I do not want to imply anything improper in connection with the > author of the text below. > > Roger H. ---------- From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.25 (06) [D/E] It is hard to find modern literature in Afrikaans in Belgian bookshops. Hello, Roger and list, how close is Afrikaans to Dutch, and how close are they to Flemish? Ben ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 26 16:05:21 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 08:05:21 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.26 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Georg.Deutsch at esa.int Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (05) [D/E] Bedankt, Rick, voor je reaktie! >With living in Holland i do presume that you mean one of the provinces >Holland . yes, indeed. I was more or less even referring to the Randstad. I do realize that the attitudes are quite different in the eastern parts of the Netherlands. >Flemish is not for all Dutch people easy to follow. For us Notherners for >instance.. Sure, but what I had in mind was not Flemish but standard Dutch as spoken in Belgium, i.e. with hardly a difference to ABN of the Netherlands. If you forget about few expressions (like 'hesp' vs 'ham' etc. or 'vast en zeker' vs 'zeker en vast') the remaining difference is mainly the melody of the parole. The subtitling such texts, as I believe, is therefore not (only) triggered by a potential lack of understanding in Holland AND Drenthe but by other considerations. groeten Georg ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 26 17:48:22 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 09:48:22 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.26 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (07) [E] > From: Roger Hondshoven > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (05) [D/E] > I was struck in the text below by the sentence: "we call ourselves > Diets". I can't imagine anyone in Flemish Belgium and in the Netherlands > today who would call his language "Diets" . I think the "Dietsche Warande en Belfort" is still one of the leading magazines for literature in Dutch. cf. Website: http://www.dwb.be/dwb/home.html Regards, Roger ---------- From: David Pattyn Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (07) [E] Hello, in reaction Rogers Text about "Diets". >>From time to time I do call myself a "Dietscher" or the language that I speak "Dietsch". I see no problem in that since my mothertongue is "Westvlams" which is a flemisch tongue that is stil spoken verry alike as was spoken in the Middle Ages. What the political load of that word is, is not relevant. Another thing that i noticed in tis discussion about Low-German is that Linguist trie to devide the dialects in smooth borders. That is not so easy to do. As I look to the resemblance of "Westvlams" with Low-Saxon, or even with modern German, and against that I see the differences between "Westvlams" and modern Dutch, then I can hardly see "Westvlams" as a dutch dialect. Also I would say that "Westvlams" is a dialect with at least saxon roots, so it would do not much right to call "Westvlams" a Low-Franconian dialiect. Another thing is that West-, Middle- and East-Germany since the Middle Ages was settled down with People from Holand and Flanders. And that even til 1945 in Prussia, Königsberg, a dialect was spoken that was verry simelar to Flemish. Kind regards, David > From: Roger Hondshoven > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (05) [D/E] > > Hello, > > I was struck in the text below by the sentence: "we call ourselves > Diets". I can't imagine anyone in Flemish Belgium and in the Netherlands > today who would call his language "Diets" . This an historical term denoting > the tongue spoken in the Middle Ages by the Flemish and the Dutch. To people > of my generation Diets is, to say the least, a suspect word. It is a > (politically) "loaded" term, since it was - in the thirties and during the > second world war - a preferential word with ultra-rightist people striving > for a Flemish secession from Belgium or for a union of Flanders and the > Netherlands in a kind of "new order". Diets is a word that has unfortunately > been abused and as such has fallen out of favour. I am under the impression > that today even right-wing people are reticent to use it. It goes without > saying that I do not want to imply anything improper in connection with the > author of the text below. > > Roger H. ---------- From: Luc Hellinckx Subject: Language varieties Beste Éric, When you wrote: >This thread has become quite interesting to me as I see that language and >identity are still intertwined in humans' psyche and even in people who vie >for diversity of language in a political entity that is supposed to become a >more plurilingual society i.e. the European Union. I had to think involuntarily of how much time (many centuries, if not millennia) it cost western, European society to segregate religious and governmental authority. This was accomplished roughly 200 years ago in many European countries thanks to the (then) "modern" concept of statebuilding that accelerated this evolution. So if we want to discriminate now between "language" and "identity", I think that we need a new kind of "citizenship" that updates old-style membership of a nation. I have this feeling that computers will play an important role in the creation of this new (global) "community", as they allow information to spread much more quickly than ever before and on a wider scale. In this respect, LL-list is truly a step in the right direction, as it transcends boundaries of many kinds...let's be grateful that we have such a visionary guy like R.H.! Kind greetings, Luc Hellinckx ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 26 23:02:21 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:02:21 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.26 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu van Woerkom Subject: Language varieties In addition to our discussion last week about language varieties around the Dutch-German border, and the classification of these language varieties, take a look at this page (about Limburgish, only available in Dutch): http://taal.phileon.nl/lim_rijnlands.php regards, Mathieu ---------- From: Roger Hondshoven Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.26 (03) [E] Hello Roger T, Dietsche Warande is indisputably a respectable magazine founded in 1855. But "Diets" is only a part of a title. It does by no means imply that it is a word currently used in present-day spoken language. It certainl is not. Please also see my reply to Elsie's message. Regards Roger H Hello Elsie, Thank you for your reaction. I am fully aware that "Diets" lies at the origin of language names such as Duits, Deutsch, Nederduits, Plattdiets and Dutch. The meaning originally was Germanic and (in a more restrictive sense) the idiom spoken in te Lowlands. But today it is mainly used as an historical term. The word has been practically extinct since approximately the 17th century. Only in the latter half of the 19th and in the first decades of the 20th centuries was it reintroduced in Flemish circles promoting the use of the vernacular in the Northern part of Belgium. It was used both in Flanders and in the Netherlands by the Groot Nederlandse beweging, a movement striving for the reunion of Flanders and the Netherlands. It became a favourite in the national-socialist vocabulary in the thirties and during the 2nd World War. You will appreciate that it was seen as a symbol of the collaboration with the Germans and that as such it was scorned by the large majority of the population. After the war it was completely discredited. No amount of nostalgia will bring it back to life. Kind regards Roger H. -------Original Message------- From: lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET Date: Friday, March 26, 2004 18:48:32 To: LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.26 (03) [E] ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu van Woerkom Subject: Language varieties In addition to our discussion last week about language varieties around the Dutch-German border, and the classification of these language varieties, take a look at this page (about Limburgish, only available in Dutch): http://taal.phileon.nl/lim_rijnlands.php regards, Mathieu ---------- From: Roger Hondshoven Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.26 (03) [E] Hello Roger T, Dietsche Warande is indisputably a respectable magazine founded in 1855. But "Diets" is only a part of a title. It does by no means imply that it is a word currently used in present-day spoken language. It certainl is not. Please also see my reply to Elsie's message. Regards Roger H Hello Elsie, Thank you for your reaction. I am fully aware that "Diets" lies at the origin of language names such as Duits, Deutsch, Nederduits, Plattdiets and Dutch. The meaning originally was Germanic and (in a more restrictive sense) the idiom spoken in te Lowlands. But today it is mainly used as an historical term. The word has been practically extinct since approximately the 17th century. Only in the latter half of the 19th and in the first decades of the 20th centuries was it reintroduced in Flemish circles promoting the use of the vernacular in the Northern part of Belgium. It was used both in Flanders and in the Netherlands by the Groot Nederlandse beweging, a movement striving for the reunion of Flanders and the Netherlands. It became a favourite in the national-socialist vocabulary in the thirties and during the 2nd World War. You will appreciate that it was seen as a symbol of the collaboration with the Germans and that as such it was scorned by the large majority of the population. After the war it was completely discredited. No amount of nostalgia will bring it back to life. Kind regards Roger H. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 26 23:21:01 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:21:01 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2004.03.26 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Hondshoven Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.26 (01) [E] Hello everybody, I have a problem with the encoding tool "Unicode UTF-8. I don't see how I can switch to it on my PC. Does someone have a solution. Thanks in advance. Roger ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Technica Moyen, Roger! Others may turn out to be more helpful than I can be. For now let me mention that much depends on your email program. Somewhere (usually under "View" or "Format" and equivalents) there ought to be a menu item "Encoding" (and equivalents). If Unicode UTF-8 is not specified there, you ought to be able to load it as one of the available encoding modes. (You might find this under "Tools" and "Options" (and equivalents). You ought to consult your help program and look for information under "encoding." Your program might ask you what font to load when you go into Unicode UTF-8 mode. The best font for it at the moment is Arial Unicode. It has the largest number of characters, including extended Roman (yes, including Old English and Old Saxon symbols), International Phonetic Alphabet, extended Cyrillic, extended Greek, extended Hebrew, extended Arabic, Armenian, Georgian, the major Indic scripts, Thai, Lao, Tibetan, Korean, Chinese, Japanese and numerous scientific characters. It used to be available free of charge, but now it is a part of Microsoft software packages. (I was lucky enough to have gotten it before commercialization.) The latest version of (single-spaced) Courier New is one of the so-so substitutes. Bye for now, and thanks for you participation, Roger! Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sat Mar 27 18:57:15 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 10:57:15 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2004.03.27 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Hondshoven Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2004.03.26 (05) [E] Hello Reinhard/Ron, I am most grateful for your reply and advice. I have found out why I have problems with Unicode. My default browser is Incredimail, which does not support Unicode. But since I sent my cry for help I have already switched to Outlook Express. There everything can be read. From now on I'll try to receive all Lowland messages in Outlook Express. Thanks again and kind regards. Roger ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lowlands-L" To: Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 12:21 AM Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2004.03.26 (05) [E] From: Roger Hondshoven Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.26 (01) [E] Hello everybody, I have a problem with the encoding tool "Unicode UTF-8. I don't see how I can switch to it on my PC. Does someone have a solution. Thanks in advance. Roger *** From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Technica Moyen, Roger! Others may turn out to be more helpful than I can be. For now let me mention that much depends on your email program. Somewhere (usually under "View" or "Format" and equivalents) there ought to be a menu item "Encoding" (and equivalents). If Unicode UTF-8 is not specified there, you ought to be able to load it as one of the available encoding modes. (You might find this under "Tools" and "Options" (and equivalents). You ought to consult your help program and look for information under "encoding." Your program might ask you what font to load when you go into Unicode UTF-8 mode. The best font for it at the moment is Arial Unicode. It has the largest number of characters, including extended Roman (yes, including Old English and Old Saxon symbols), International Phonetic Alphabet, extended Cyrillic, extended Greek, extended Hebrew, extended Arabic, Armenian, Georgian, the major Indic scripts, Thai, Lao, Tibetan, Korean, Chinese, Japanese and numerous scientific characters. It used to be available free of charge, but now it is a part of Microsoft software packages. (I was lucky enough to have gotten it before commercialization.) The latest version of (single-spaced) Courier New is one of the so-so substitutes. Bye for now, and thanks for you participation, Roger! Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Technica Roger (above): > But since I sent my cry for help I have already switched to > Outlook Express. There everything can be read. From now on I'll try to > receive all Lowland messages in Outlook Express. > Thanks again and kind regards. You're most welcome, Roger. Another piece of advice: using Outlook or Outlook Express, make sure you have aduate and frequently updated virus protection. Also, if you or anyone else needs to change their subscribed email address, please write to me, and I will take it from there. It is really better to change the subscription than to have mail forwarded automatically from one account to another. If there is anything wrong with the account that is not subscribed I have no way of doing anything about it but still get error messages, and most of the time I have no idea who the owner of the mystery account is. That's a great pain in the neck, as you can probably imagine. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sun Mar 28 17:12:53 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 09:12:53 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.28 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: Help needed Haai almal, I need to examine the inflections of the Afrikaans adjectives. I don't have a lot of material available to asking your for help. I would like to know whether there are dialect differences (Standard-Afrikaans, Oost-Kaaps, West-Kaaps, Oranje Rivier Afrikaans)? I would also like to know how why the system is like it is. Are there phonetic explanations. I will probably have more and more concrete questions later. Thanks in advance! Geniet die dag, Kenneth ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sun Mar 28 17:17:45 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 09:17:45 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.28 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: beckivan Subject: (Diachronic) Syntax Dear Lowlands-L Users, I have read with interest the comments resulting from Michel Verhagen's original post concerning reflexives. I am currently working on a Phd on the History of English reflexives and am particularly interested in Frisian, Dutch and Afrikaans due to their similarities and differences with earlier stages of English. I'd welcome any further information anyone has particularly concerning Afrikaans (see below). For old english the ordinary personal pronouns are used as the reflexive. The famous examples from Visser being: judas aheng hine (either Judas hanged himself or judas hanged him) self comes in as a reflexive in the early middle english period and competes with the older form. Afrikaans as far as I am aware is similar. I was wondering if there were any word order differences between the use of the object pronoun and the reflexive pronoun in order to distinguish them? I've also heard that Afrikaans is in the process of change with its reflexive - can anyone shed any light on this matter? Thanks in advance Hope this isn't too long, being my first post and all... Beck Sinar ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Syntax Hi, Beck! Welcome to Lowlands-L and to its vocal minority! We may have discussed this topic before, though not in great detail. (You could check the archives in substring mode.) At any rate, I hope you'll receive the help you expect. Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net http://www.lowlands-l.net ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sun Mar 28 21:28:23 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 13:28:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.28 (03) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: ezinsser Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.28 (01) [A,E] Dag almal, Kenneth, ek sal jou so in die loop van die week antwoord op jou vrae. Groete, Elsie Zinsser ---------- From: Liza du Plooy Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.28 (01) [A,E] Kenneth, jy het geskryf: "I would like to know whether there are dialect differences (Standard-Afrikaans, Oost-Kaaps, West-Kaaps, Oranje Rivier Afrikaans)? I would also like to know how why the system is like it is. Are there phonetic explanations. I will probably have more and more concrete questions later. Thanks in advance! Geniet die dag, Kenneth" Het jy spesifieke byvoeglike naamwoorde in gedagte? Indien wel, kan jy 'n paar voorbeelde gee? Groete Liza ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Morpholoy Elsie, Liza, Laaglanders, As jullie op Kenneth sy navraag antwoord, bespreek morfologiese aspekte ("Morphology") afsonderlik van allgemene aspekte ("Language varieties") asseblief. Baie dankie by voorbaat . Groete, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net http://www.lowlands-l.net ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sun Mar 28 21:30:22 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 13:30:22 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.28 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.28 (02) [E] > From: beckivan > Subject: (Diachronic) Syntax > For old english the ordinary personal pronouns are used as the reflexive. > The famous examples from Visser being: > judas aheng hine > (either Judas hanged himself or judas hanged him) In my Lonerlands (West-Limburgish) from Vliermaal: "Judas het hem opgehange" could mean both. In case of ambiguity of context one can also say: - "Judas het zen eige opgehange" (zen eige = his own) for the reflexive form. For the non reflexive form, approaches could be: - "Judas het hem doa opgehange" (him there) but clearly the listener should know where "there" points to. In the worst case of ambiguity I guess one would use the name of the person hanged. I guess it is curious that, while both Dutch and German use a form of "self", we don't use it in our West-Limburgish though. Regards, Roger ---------- From: beckivan Subject: Syntax Dear Lowlanders, More questions I'm afraid: I know that Dutch has stressed and unstressed object pronouns (strong and weak if you prefer) as in `mij' and `me' with the latter also functioning as the reflexive. Is there a similar stressed/unstressed system in other Lowland languages and if so when can they be used (spoken only? written only? etc..)? Any help would be much appreciated, Beck Sinar ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 29 19:18:10 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:18:10 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.29 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Margaret Tarbet Subject: An experiment that will probably interest many lowlanders I received this mailing this morning about an experiment in which Lowlanders might like to participate: >From: W.J. Heeringa (w.j.heeringaATlet.rug.nl) >Subject: perception of Germanic languages > >As part of a course at the University of Groningen >(The Netherlands) we developed a website intended >for investigation of language perception. On the >website 11 recordings of different languages and >dialects can be heard, and the visitor is asked to >rate the distance of the varieties with respect to >his of her mother tongue. > >To complete our project we need many different >people with different native languages to visit our >website and do the experiment. We would like to >ask you to participate in this experiment or to send >this mail to students at your university so that these >students can participate. The experiment is for >scientific use only and will not be used for other purposes. > >The experiment and more information about the >experiment, can be found on our website: > >http://www.let.rug.nl/perception > >We thank you for your participation. I suspect we'll skew the results :-) Margaret ---------- From: Frédéric Baert Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.26 (03) [E] On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 09:48:22 -0800, Lowlands-L David wrote: >Another thing that i noticed in tis discussion about Low-German is that >Linguist trie to devide >the dialects in smooth borders. That is not so easy to do. >As I look to the resemblance of "Westvlams" with Low-Saxon, or even with >modern German, >and against that I see the differences between "Westvlams" and modern >Dutch, then I can >hardly see "Westvlams" as a dutch dialect. Also I would say that "Westvlams" >is a dialect with >at least saxon roots, so it would do not much right to call "Westvlams" a >Low-Franconian dialiect. >Another thing is that West-, Middle- and East-Germany since the Middle Ages >was settled down >with People from Holand and Flanders. And that even til 1945 in Prussia, >Königsberg, a dialect >was spoken that was verry simelar to Flemish. > >Kind regards, >David > Hello I agree with this. But I think I heard that one of the most important feature of low franconian dialects is the disappearance of the l between a vowel and a consonnant like in dutch "oud" vs english, frisian, low saxon and german "old" or "alt". In this way, west flemish is a low franconian dialect. My french west flemish is even "more franconian" than dutch since the disappearance is often more complete. The problem I see is that linguist want a language to be low franconian or low saxon or english or frisian. In this way what could be the position of west flemish with its low franconian features i mentionned above but also its saxon features and its frisian features ? I think you cannot put a language into one box and not another. I see west flemish like one of the transitional languages between the low-franconian languages and the low saxon languages and also between the low franconian/low saxon languages and the ingwaeonic languages. In France, one of the definitions of a dialect is that a language is a dialect of another if the two are mutually intelligible. In this way it's worse for west flemish and dutch because a french west flemish speaker can very hardly (if he can!)understand a dutch speaker. In fact my grandmother told me an interesting story : Her mother didn't speak at all english but when she rescued an english soldier during the second world war, they could communicate a little bit, him in english and her in west flemish ! I don't say west flemish and english are mutually intelligible. It's clear it's not the case. But I ask if, in regard to the difficulty for a french flemish to understand dutch, you can really say west flemish is a dutch dialect? The main problem is that the term of dialect comes from the period when linguists wanted the languages to be classified like naturalists did with animals and vegetals. But (especially for germanic languages which form a continuum) this classification is possible for clearly distinct language like standard english vs standard german but becomes problematic when used for transitional languages like west flemish, low saxon dialects I think, but also limburgish or middle franconian dialects etc... I also think the problem often becomes politic. i.e. I think it's better to say in France that french flemish is a dutch dialect. You can even read on certain internet pages that flemish people in north of France speak dutch ! So governments don't have to do something to save french flemish since the same language is spoken in Belgium and in the Netherlands! I'm sure it's what lots of French people think (when they know that in some part of north of France people speak a flemish dialect. Despite of this, I'm very proud to be a french flemish : french and flemish. I'm just so sad about the disappearance of my language.) Best regards Frédéric Baert ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 29 20:53:56 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:53:56 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.29 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Tom Maguire Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.29 (01) [E] Lowlands-L wrote: >>From: W.J. Heeringa (w.j.heeringaATlet.rug.nl) >>Subject: perception of Germanic languages >> >>As part of a course at the University of Groningen >>(The Netherlands) we developed a website intended >>for investigation of language perception. On the >>website 11 recordings of different languages and >>dialects can be heard, and the visitor is asked to >>rate the distance of the varieties with respect to >>his of her mother tongue. >> >>To complete our project we need many different >>people with different native languages to visit our >>website and do the experiment. We would like to >>ask you to participate in this experiment or to send >>this mail to students at your university so that these >>students can participate. The experiment is for >>scientific use only and will not be used for other purposes. >> >>The experiment and more information about the >>experiment, can be found on our website: >> >>http://www.let.rug.nl/perception >> >>We thank you for your participation. > > > I suspect we'll skew the results :-) > > Margaret Impossible to enter... Any leads? Tam -- Carpe Diem. -Visit Nlp in Education http://www.xtec.es/~jmaguire -Join Nlp-Education mailto:nlp-education-subscribe at yahoogroups.com -Join Seal-Spain mailto:seal-spain-subscribe at yahoogroups.com ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Hi, Tam! I got in nae bather. You should try again. Actually, there's an automatic detour. You might as well go to the final site right away: http://www.beachvolleybal.com/projects/em/ Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 29 21:00:05 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:00:05 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.29 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology Folks I'd like to reconnect with the thread Heiko started on March 20, 2004. > From: Heiko Evermann > Subject: Copenhagen/Koebenhavn > > Hi everyone, > > For the name of the Danish capital we have two very different forms: > 1) the Danish (original) Form: København. > 2) the English form: Copenhagen, or in German: Kopenhagen. > > (For the origin of København, I have heard that the first part means > merchant, and the second means harbour.) > > The strange thing about the name is the change from v to g, which is > highly unusual. > > Does anyone know how to explain this? > > Kind regards, > > Heiko Evermann > > ---------- > > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Phonology > > Moyen, Heiko! > > > The strange thing about the name is the change from v to g, which is > > highly unusual. > > It isn't as unusual as you may think. Within the West Germanic group it is > not prevalent, though there are instances such as Lowlands Saxon (Low > German) _blau_ ~ _blaag_ (and Dutch _blauw_) 'blue'. > > When it comes to this phenomenon, you need to throw /v/ and /w/ into one > category. (In such cases they may even be allophones.) > > This alternation between /g/ and /v~w/ is quite noticeable within the North > Germanic group. Note for example Danish _dag_ being pronounced [da:G] ~ > [da:w] etc. (hence the spelling or in Jutish). Note also the > word for 'sea' or 'ocean' in North Germanic: Swedish _hav_, Danish _hav_ > ([haw]), Norwegian _hav_, Icelandic _haf_, Old Norse _haf_, versus the word > for 'pasture' or 'garden': Swedish _hage_, Danish _have_ (['ha:və]), > Norwegian _hage_, Icelandic _hagi_, Old Norse _hagi_, and now compare these > with West Germanic cognates such as German _Hag_, Dutch/LS _haag_ and > English _haw_! > > This /g/ ~ /v~w/ alternation is very prevalent in other language groups and > families, such as in Turkic and other Altaic languages, where /w/ frequently > alternates with uvular (postvelar) /G/; e.g., _taG_ ~ _taw_ ~ _tau_ > 'mountain'. I think this has something to do with a tendency toward lip > rounding while pronouncing voiced velars and uvulars in some language > varieties. > > However, note the very word for 'harbor' in North Germanic: Swedish _hamn_, > Danish _havn_ ([haw|n]), Dano-Norwegian _havn_, Icelandic _höfn_, Old Norse > _hǫfn_. Not a /g/ in sight! I often wonder if _Kopenhagen_ is derived from > foreign, perhaps Middle Saxon, reanalysis of _havn_ 'harbor' as _hag-en_ > 'the _hag_ (haw?)'. > > Regards, > Reinhard/Ron Alternation between /g/ and /v/ or /w/ is really not uncommon among the Germanic languages. Within this group, and perhaps universally, /g/ is somewhat "illusive" in that it likes to surface in the "guise" of _v_ ~ _w_ and _j_ (= _y_), mostly as a result of "attraction," i.e., labial and palatal assimilation. The latter shift can also be observed in the shift from /gii/ (, , ) to /jii/ (Lowlands Saxon and Western Flemish ) > /jai/ (Dutch > ), etc., not to forget English and Scots , for the 2nd person plural pronoun. Most Lowlands Saxon ("Low German") varieties are fairly resistant to this shift, though their eastern varieties (as well as those of German) have not been. In the latter, /g/ consistently changes to [j], probably due to Slavonic substrates, possibly also reinforced by Flemish immigrants' influences. The word group "fly" is a one of those that represents both shifts: /g/ > /w/~/v/ and /g/ > /j/: Old English: verb: fléoƽan ~ flíoƽan - fléoƽ ~ flíoƽ ~ fléoh ~ flíoh - fluƽon noun: fléoƽe ~ flýƽe Modern English: verb: fly - flew - flown noun: fly Modern Scots: verb: flee - flaw ~ flew - floun noun: flee Modern Icelandic: verb: fljúga - flýg / flaug - flaugum / floginn noun: fluga Modern Danish: verb: flyve - fløj - fløjet noun: flue As you can see, Modern English, Scots and Danish never phonetically realize /g/ in this group, only the results of the shifts. The North Saxon dialects of Lowlands Saxon (Low German), on the other hand, are fairly conservative in this regard (and other phonological regards): Modern Lowlands Saxon: verb: vleygen - vlöyg' - vlagen noun: vleyg' German-based orthography: verb: flegen ~ fleigen - flöög(') ~ fleug - flagen ~ flogen noun: Fleeg(') ~ Fleig(') Phonetic: verb: 'flɛˑɪɡŋ ~ 'flaˑɪɡŋ - flœːɪɣ ~ flœːɪj ~ flɔːɪj - 'flɒːɡŋ noun: flɛːɪ(ɣ) ~ flaːɪ(ɣ) Eastern Lowlands Saxon: Mennonite (Plautdietsch): verb: fleaje(n) - fluag - jefloage noun: Fleaje German: Modern Standard German: verb: fliegen - flog - geflogen noun: Fliege Modern Eastern Yiddish: verb: flien - N/A - gefloygn noun: flig Modern Eastern Yiddish (orthographic): verb: פֿליִען - N/A - געפֿלױגן noun: פֿליִג Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 30 02:23:55 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:23:55 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.29 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Margaret Tarbet Subject: Language varieties Tam Maguire wrote: >Impossible to enter... Any leads? Tam, that url is the 'front door' where they shift folk to different translations of the instructions. The other day I got in immediately, but it took me several tries this time. I'm not sure what's the carry-on. If you're still having problems, though, have a go at the English site directly. That seems to work just as well: http://www.beachvolleybal.com/projects/em/ Margaret ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 30 18:40:18 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:40:18 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.30 (01) [E/F] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Stella en Henno Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.29 (01) [E] > From: Frédéric Baert > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.26 (03) [E] > > On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 09:48:22 -0800, Lowlands-L > David wrote: > > >Another thing that i noticed in tis discussion about Low-German is that > >Linguist trie to devide > >the dialects in smooth borders. That is not so easy to do. > >As I look to the resemblance of "Westvlams" with Low-Saxon, or even with > >modern German, > >and against that I see the differences between "Westvlams" and modern > >Dutch, then I can > >hardly see "Westvlams" as a dutch dialect. Also I would say > that "Westvlams" > >is a dialect with > >at least saxon roots, so it would do not much right to call "Westvlams" a > >Low-Franconian dialiect. Dit liket my frjemd ta, my hat it Westflaamsk net sa Saksysk oanheard. It is al sa, dat der mienskiplike konserfative skaaimerken binne (behâld fan [i] (yn wurden as "iis") en net diftongearre [u] (mar yn it Saksysk [u] (op de meast westlike farianten yn Nederlân nei) en by jimme [y] (Nl uu), yn "hûs"-wurden. Fierders sprekke jim beiden de einichste -n noch út yn meartallen en tiidswurdfoarmen, mar dat dogge de Friezen ek. Jim hawwe gjin omlûd op lange lûden, mienskiplik -t (of -en) meartal foar alle persoanen yn de notiid fan de tiidwurdsbûging, noch hawwe jim de -l- beholden yn wurden as "âld" en "hout". Dizze 3 binne (binnen it Nederlânske gebiet) de grutte skieders fan Saksyske en mear westlike of súdlike tongslaggen. In oar konserfatyf skaaimerk dat ik betinke kin dat Saksyks (guon dialekten) en Westflaamsk mien hawwe, is in langer behâld fan [o:] yn wurden as "boek", dat komt by jim dochs as "book" foar, somtyds? Mar dit is gewoan de Aldgermaanske foarm, dus leau ik earder oan mienskiplike "behâldsucht" yn perifeare gebieten.. > >Another thing is that West-, Middle- and East-Germany since the Middle Ages > >was settled down > >with People from Holand and Flanders. And that even til 1945 in Prussia, > >Königsberg, a dialect > >was spoken that was verry simelar to Flemish. > > > >Kind regards, > >David > > > > Hello > > I agree with this. But I think I heard that one of the most important > feature of low franconian dialects is the disappearance of the l between a > vowel and a consonnant like in dutch "oud" vs english, frisian, low saxon > and german "old" or "alt". In this way, west flemish is a low franconian > dialect. My french west flemish is even "more franconian" than dutch since > the disappearance is often more complete. ek it Westerlauwerk Frysk hat yn 'e measte dialekten (it Hylpersk (Hindeloopers) is in útsûndering) de -l- ek ferlern: "âld" wurdt útsprutsen as [O:d] (Hylpen [a:ld]), "hout" liket has it selde as it Hollânsk (Hylpen [ho. at lt]) (dus net rymjend as yn Nl. hout, oud; apart ek: Skiermûntseach hat "aud" en "heeuwt") . Ek in wurdt as "souder", wylst it Hollânsk "zolder" hat, "moude" (besibbe oan "mold" yn it Ingelsk) lit sjen dat it Frysk hjir frij "Frankysk" is, feitlik. Mar fansels is dizze feroaring sa natuerlik dat er oeral spontaan opkomme kin, en by ús is dat dus ek bard, mar wol letter as yn it Frankysk. (de Fryske stavering is hjir wat behâldend). Typysk West-Frankysk: ferienfâldiging (al heel betiid) fan -sk en -ks-: ferlykje Frysk "waskje" (Ing. to wash, Nl wassen) en "waakse" (groeie) mei Nl wassen (yn "het wassende water; volwassen; Frysk folwoeksen), Dútsk "wachsen". Ek "zes" (ynstee fan "seis" < "seks" (noch yn Hylpen) by ús, Dútsk "sechs", Ing. "six" mar Saksysk faak ek "zös" of soks...) en "vos" (ynstee faan "foks" yn it Frysk bygelyks) binne hjir foarbylden fan. Dit skaaimerk is al ier Midsieuwsk, en miskjin noch wol âlder... > The problem I see is that linguist want a language to be low franconian or > low saxon or english or frisian. In this way what could be the position of > west flemish with its low franconian features i mentionned above but also > its saxon features and its frisian features ? Dit ferwiist nei relikten as "brig" of "breg" (Frysk "brêge" (soms ek "brigge") en "rig" esfh? > I think you cannot put a language into one box and not another. I see west > flemish like one of the transitional languages between the low-franconian > languages and the low saxon languages and also between the low > franconian/low saxon languages and the ingwaeonic languages. > > In France, one of the definitions of a dialect is that a language is a > dialect of another if the two are mutually intelligible. In this way it's > worse for west flemish and dutch because a french west flemish speaker can > very hardly (if he can!)understand a dutch speaker. In fact my grandmother > told me an interesting story : Her mother didn't speak at all english but > when she rescued an english soldier during the second world war, they could > communicate a little bit, him in english and her in west flemish ! I don't > say west flemish and english are mutually intelligible. It's clear it's not > the case. But I ask if, in regard to the difficulty for a french flemish to > understand dutch, you can really say west flemish is a dutch dialect? > > The main problem is that the term of dialect comes from the period when > linguists wanted the languages to be classified like naturalists did with > animals and vegetals. But (especially for germanic languages which form a > continuum) this classification is possible for clearly distinct language > like standard english vs standard german but becomes problematic when used > for transitional languages like west flemish, low saxon dialects I think, > but also limburgish or middle franconian dialects etc... > > I also think the problem often becomes politic. i.e. I think it's better to > say in France that french flemish is a dutch dialect. You can even read on > certain internet pages that flemish people in north of France speak dutch ! > So governments don't have to do something to save french flemish since the > same language is spoken in Belgium and in the Netherlands! I'm sure it's > what lots of French people think (when they know that in some part of north > of France people speak a flemish dialect. Despite of this, I'm very proud > to be a french flemish : french and flemish. I'm just so sad about the > disappearance of my language.) > > Best regards > Frédéric Baert > And so am I, but politically saying it is "Dutch" might not be such a bad idea; one might get some financial support one otherwise wouldn't have had... Henno Brandsma ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Henno: > In oar konserfatyf skaaimerk dat ik betinke kin dat Saksyks (guon dialekten) > en Westflaamsk > mien hawwe, is in langer behâld fan [o:] yn wurden as "boek", dat komt > by jim dochs as "book" foar, somtyds? In it hjoeddeiske Saksysk fan Dútsklân betekent _o(o)_ twa lûden: /oo/ of /ou/. In it gefal fan _Book_ is it /bouk/, dus ek _bouk_ in oare systemen. In ieniche tongslaggen is /ou/ fonetisk [a.U], dus ek de spelling _au_: _Bauk_. In it meartal fan dizze _au_-tongslaggen is /ei/ ek fonetisk [a.I], b.f. /bein/ _Bein_, Grinslânsk (Gronings) Saksysk _baain_ (mar in tongslaggen fan it type /ou/ = _o(o)_: /ei/ = _e(e)_, bf. /bein/ = _Been_). Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 30 19:04:57 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:04:57 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.30 (02) [A/E/Danish] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Thea Rønsby Subject: a linguistic problem Hello all of you! My question is: What is the difference in using the preposition "vir" and "voor" in Afrikaans? I hope some of you might answer me. Thank you. Sincerely, Thea Rønsby, Denmark ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Morphology Hov, Thea! Jeg byder Deg i enhvers navn velkommen. Dis lekker om jou op Lowlands-L te ontmoed. Ek het tot nog toe nie geweet nie, dat in Afrikaans die woorde "vir" en "voor" semanties gedeeltelik saamval kan. Ek het geloof, dat _for_ "vir" en _before_ "voor" is (maar albei _voor_ in Nederlands). Jou navraag het my baie nuuskierig gemaak. Hilsen, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 30 20:52:05 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:52:05 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.30 (03) [A/E/Danish] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: ezinsser Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.30 (02) [A/E/Danish] Dag almal Nee, Ron, vir is 'n voorsetsel, en voor is 'n adverb (?) wat plek aandui. Voorbeelde: Ek sit altyd voor in die bus om eerste by die huis te kom. Kom staan hier voor my dan maak ek jou knope vas. Ek het vir my suster rose gekoop. Hulle het vir my die storie vertel. Groete Elsie Z ======================================================================= From: Thea Rønsby Subject: a linguistic problem My question is: What is the difference in using the preposition "vir" and "voor" in Afrikaans? I hope some of you might answer me. Thank you. Sincerely, Thea Rønsby, Denmark ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Morphology Hov, Thea! Jeg byder Deg i enhvers navn velkommen. Dis lekker om jou op Lowlands-L te ontmoed. Ek het tot nog toe nie geweet nie, dat in Afrikaans die woorde "vir" en "voor" semanties gedeeltelik saamval kan. Ek het geloof, dat _for_ "vir" en _before_ "voor" is (maar albei _voor_ in Nederlands). Jou navraag het my baie nuuskierig gemaak. Hilsen, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 31 01:14:22 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:14:22 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.30 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Frédéric Baert Subject: Re: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.30 (01) [E/F] Henno wrote : >> The problem I see is that linguist want a language to be low franconian or >> low saxon or english or frisian. In this way what could be the position of >> west flemish with its low franconian features i mentionned above but also >> its saxon features and its frisian features ? >Dit ferwiist nei relikten as "brig" of "breg" (Frysk "brêge" (soms ek >"brigge") >en "rig" esfh? No, I don't think I ever heard "brig" in french flemish but always "brugge". In contrast, we still have "dinne" instead of dutch "dunne" (eng. "thin") and "pit" instead of "put". Modification of vowels is, I think, one of the most important difference between west flemish and dutch since all vowels have a great or little difference of pronunciation in west flemish : a often > ae (ao) like dutch "vader" > w. fl. "vaeder" e between consonnant is pronunced intermediary between e and a like "hem" which is pronunced almost like eng "ham" of "buckingham" (saxon pronunciation i think). o often > u like "op" > "up", "bos" > "busch", "ons" > "(n)uus" u often > i : "dunne" > "dinne", "put" > "pit" (a "put" in french flemish is a frog!), "rukke" (i think) > "rikke" There is the intersting case of dutch "molen", in french flemish "meule" but on the coast, we have two villages in France with names "millam" and "hoymille", attesting an old flemish "mille" like english "mill". We also have short vowels instead of diphtongs in place of the old long vowels of old germanic like "huus" (short vowel) instead of durch "huis". "ys" instead of "ijs". "ou" is not a diphtong but in my language it is pronunced a little bit different from "oe": "goed" and "goud" are no homophones and so are not "by" and "bie". At least, one point in french flemish is intriguing me : "sch" is always pronunced like in german and not like dutch" sch" or english "sch" (frisian "sk"). But I read that, in the past, near duunkerke, "sch" was pronunced like "sk". My ancestors village 's name, "hondschoote", was in 1069 "hondescote". Now, it is pronunced in modern french flemish something like " onschoote" but it is pronunced in french something like "onskote". I don't think pronuniation of "sch" as "sk" is very natural for a french speaker so I don't think it is a french deformation (but it's still a possibility). Another village : boeschepe is pronunced in modern french flemish something like "buschepe" but in french something like "boskepe". I ask myself if these french pronunciations cannot be inherited from an old flemish pronunciation of "sch" like frisian "sk". But in this case how and why "sch" became pronunced as modern french flemish "sch" since it is not the standard dutch pronunciation? Best regards Frédéric Baert ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Salut, Frédéric! > There is the intersting case of dutch "molen", in french flemish "meule" > but on the coast, we have two villages in France with names "millam" > and "hoymille", attesting an old flemish "mille" like english "mill". Incidentally, in the North Saxon dialects the word is umlauted too: _möle_ ['mø:lə] ~ ['mø:le], nowadays more frequently _mööl_ [mø:.l], in Germanized spelling _Möhle_ and _Möhl_ respectively (to make it look like German _Mühle_). In Dutch-based spelling this would be _meule_ and _meul_ respectively. I think Henno has a point in reminding us to think in terms of progressive versus conservative features rather than only thinking in terms of influences. By the same token, we ought not forget either that most, if not all, of the Continental North Sea coast once was Frisian-dominated and that there was considerable Saxon influx on what are now the coasts of Belgium and Northern France (also Zeeland?). Perhaps it is sometimes impossible to decide what accounts for what. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 31 16:51:53 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:51:53 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.31 (01) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.30 (04) [E] Ron wrote: "Perhaps it is sometimes impossible to decide what accounts for what." Undoubtedly. I have long despaired of ever tracking down the origin of most of the unique features of Nottingham English, even though links to Dutch and Zeelandic seem most probable. Too much of NEng's sound system has been chipped away at by standard English in the last two hundred years, and all we are left with are relics. I would dearly love the case to be otherwise, however. Criostóir. ---------- From: marco [evenhuiscommunicatie] Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.30 (04) [E] Henno wrote : > >> The problem I see is that linguist want a language to be low franconian > or > >> low saxon or english or frisian. In this way what could be the position > of > >> west flemish with its low franconian features i mentionned above but also > >> its saxon features and its frisian features ? > >Dit ferwiist nei relikten as "brig" of "breg" (Frysk "brêge" (soms ek > >"brigge") > >en "rig" esfh? Frederic then answered: > No, I don't think I ever heard "brig" in french flemish but > always "brugge". In contrast, we still have "dinne" instead of > dutch "dunne" (eng. "thin") and "pit" instead of "put". Modification of > vowels is, I think, one of the most important difference between west > flemish and dutch since all vowels have a great or little difference of > pronunciation in west flemish : In Zeelandic, which is in a lot of ways closer to French Flemish than to West-Flemish, forms like 'dinne' and 'pit' also still exist and are used in everyday speech. The same goes for 'rik' or 'rikke' (back, Du. _rug_). 'Brigge' is becoming oldfashioned now, but the memory to the word is being kept alive by topographic names like the village of Brigdamme on the island of Walcheren. The local sportscentre there is called 'De Brigge'. Most of the features Frederic then mentions, are Zeelandic too. That's not a coincidence. When in later medieval times Brabant in stead of Flanders became the most powerful region in the Netherlands, the Brabantic of that time became of huge influence on especially East- but also on West-Flemish. Some language features that had been common thoughout E- and W-Flanders (and Zeeland), got restricted to the areas that were less under the influence of Brabantic. Those areas are what is now called French Flanders (including the 'Westhoek' of West-Flanders) and Zeeland. It's probably no surprise that a lot features that survived in these parts are Frisian. More or less the same happened in the west of Holland. The original language there had a lot of Frisian features as well, but they almost completely diappeared when after the huge influx of people from Brabant at the end of the 17th century, the language of power in Holland also became more and more Brabantic. The dialects of some small villages on the coast, like Katwijk and Scheveningen, somehow managed to keep more of their original features however. Regards, Marco Evenhuis ---------- From: Frédéric Baert Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.30 (04) [E] >From: R. F. Hahn >Subject: Language varieties > >Salut, Frédéric! > >> There is the intersting case of dutch "molen", in french flemish "meule" >> but on the coast, we have two villages in France with names "millam" >> and "hoymille", attesting an old flemish "mille" like english "mill". > >Incidentally, in the North Saxon dialects the word is umlauted too: _möle_ >['mø:lə] ~ ['mø:le], nowadays more frequently _mööl_ [mø:.l], in Germanized >spelling _Möhle_ and _Möhl_ respectively (to make it look like German >_Mühle_). In Dutch-based spelling this would be _meule_ and _meul_ >respectively. > >I think Henno has a point in reminding us to think in terms of progressive >versus conservative features rather than only thinking in terms of >influences. By the same token, we ought not forget either that most, if not >all, of the Continental North Sea coast once was Frisian-dominated and that >there was considerable Saxon influx on what are now the coasts of Belgium >and Northern France (also Zeeland?). Perhaps it is sometimes impossible to >decide what accounts for what. > >Regards, >Reinhard/Ron > Hallo I have also this point in mind and I think that "frisonisms "and "saxonisms" in west flemish tend to prove that, in ancient times, saxon, frisian and franconian were all together perfectly intelligible. This is why I think classification between low franconian-low saxon and anglo-frisian languages is artificial but I'm no linguist. Best regards Frédéric ---------- From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Language varieties Henno Brandsma en Frédéric Baert spraken over de verschillen en overeenkomsten tussen West-Vlaams, Nederlands, Fries en Nedersaksisch. Om de taalkundige puzzel nog lastiger te maken, zijn hier de Limburgse varianten: >Dit liket my frjemd ta, my hat it Westflaamsk net sa Saksysk >oanheard. It is al sa, dat der mienskiplike konserfative skaaimerken >binne (behâld fan [i] (yn wurden as "iis") en net diftongearre [u] >(mar yn it Saksysk [u] (op de meast westlike farianten yn Nederlân >nei) en by jimme [y] (Nl uu), yn "hûs"-wurden. Limburgs: ijs = ies [i:s], huis = hoes [hu:s] >Fierders sprekke >jim beiden de einichste -n noch út yn meartallen en >tiidswurdfoarmen, mar dat dogge de Friezen ek. Jim hawwe gjin >omlûd op lange lûden, mienskiplik -t (of -en) meartal foar alle >persoanen yn de notiid fan de tiidwurdsbûging, noch hawwe >jim de -l- beholden yn wurden as "âld" en "hout". Limburgs: oud = aud [A:d / O:d] of alt [ald] in de noordelijke gebieden >In oar konserfatyf skaaimerk dat ik betinke kin dat Saksyks (guon >dialekten) en Westflaamsk mien hawwe, is in langer behâld fan [o:] >yn wurden as "boek", dat komt by jim dochs as "book" foar, >somtyds? Mar dit is gewoan de Aldgermaanske foarm, dus >leau ik earder oan mienskiplike "behâldsucht" yn perifeare gebieten. Misschien, Limburgs heeft namelijk ook 'book' [bo:k]. Is het niet gewoon zo dat veel van deze kenmerken zijn toe te schrijven aan een gemeenschappelijke Oudgermaanse basis, in plaats van een vermeende (deels) Saksische oorsprong van het West-Vlaams? >ek it Westerlauwerk Frysk hat yn 'e measte dialekten (it Hylpersk >(Hindeloopers) is in útsûndering) de -l- ek ferlern: "âld" wurdt >útsprutsen as [O:d] (Hylpen [a:ld]), "hout" liket has it selde as it >Hollânsk (Hylpen [ho. at lt]) (dus net rymjend as yn Nl. hout, oud; >apart ek: Skiermûntseach hat "aud" en "heeuwt") . Ek in wurd as >"souder", wylst it Hollânsk "zolder" hat. Limburgs: zolder = zölder >Ek "zes" >(ynstee fan "seis" < "seks" (noch yn Hylpen) by ús, Dútsk >"sechs", Ing. "six" mar Saksysk faak ek "zös" of soks...) en >"vos" (ynstee faan "foks" yn it Frysk bygelyks) binne hjir >foarbylden fan. Dit skaaimerk is al ier Midsieuwsk, en miskjin >noch wol âlder... Limburgs: zes = zès, fox = fóks of vos In ieder geval heeft men gelijk als men stelt dat taalkundigen graag mooie strakke taalgrenzen willen zien, waar die er feitelijk niet zijn: overgangen van taal (of dialect) naar taal (of dialect) gaan vaak vloeiend. Groeten, Mathieu __________________________ www.streektaal.net ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Dear Lowlanders, First I'll follow my buddy Mathieu, hoping to satisfy the "harvesters" among you with North Saxon (NS) dialect data of Lowlands Saxon (Low German) of Northern Germany. (< > marks equivalents with German-based spelling, [ ] phonetic representation.) > Limburgs: ijs = ies [i:s], huis = hoes [hu:s] ys [ʔiːs] 'ice' huus [huːs] 'house', 'building', 'edifice' > Limburgs: oud = aud [A:d / O:d] of alt [ald] in de noordelijke gebieden old ~ ~ ~ [ʔoˑɫt] 'old' > Limburgs: zolder = zölder No cognate, as far as I can tell, but: hauböön ['haˑ� bøːn] ~ hayböön ['haˑɪbøːn] ~ hoyböön ['hɔˑɪbøːn] '(hay) loft' ~ ruge(n) böön [ˌruːɡe'bøːn] ~ [ˌruːɡŋ'bøːn] ("rough loft/attic") '(hay) loft' > Limburgs: zes = zès, fox = fóks of vos söss [zœs] ~ sess [zɛs] 'six' vos () [fɔs] 'fox' It seems that several of us feel that some of the "finer" linguistic categorizations may no longer hold a lot of water, that there are levels of differentiation that approach meaninglessness, that we are really talking more about continua than about dialect or language groups. Perhaps there is something to be said for this. These days we might be able to say that a certain group of varieties is primarily based on Saxon, another one on Saxon with Frisian substrates, another one on Saxon with West Slavonic substrates, another one on Franconian with Frisian substrates with Brabantish and or Saxon admixture, etc., etc. Much of the once clearer definitions based on specific features and isoglosses seem to we well on their way of being eroded, mostly by way of mutual influences, primarily due to considerable influences from the dominant languages that "chip away" at them, to borrow Críostóir's words -- bearing in mind also that these dominant languages (Standard Dutch, Standard German and Standard English) are by no means "pure" to start with, are to various degrees artificially synthesized constructs. All this tends to blur formerly fairly clear divisions. Henno brought up the issue of coincidence. A fine example is that Lowlands Saxon and Western Flemish/Zeelandic -- a fair geographic distance from each other -- share certain features, first and foremost monophthongs where other varieties have diphthongs (e.g., [iː] versus [əɪ], [aɪ], etc.). Since we know that Saxons emigrated to the coastal regions that are now parts of Belgium and Northern France, we might be tempted to assume this feature to be a case of Saxon influence. However, as Henno suggested, this could just as well be a case of common, coincidental conservatism rather than one of influence, since we know for certain that the monophthongs are the older forms. There is also the issue of diphthongization in English and Scots, which should not lead us to the conclusion that they do not have a Saxon base; rather, we should assume that in their cases diphthongization took place independently, possibly coincidentally, both from Dutch and German. But then there are cases such as the diphthong /ei/ in Saxon where I have also heard it in Western Flemish; e.g., in the word for 'horse': WF [pɛˑɪrt] and LS [p(ʰ)ɛˑɪɝt] ~ [p(ʰ)aˑɪɝt] (> Lower Elbe [pʰiːɝt]); cf. Duch _paard_ (German _Pferd_). Saxon influence or coincidence? At any rate, things no longer seem very clear-cut to me, not as clear-cut as they are described to be in older books, where for instance the spread of the Saxon varieties is supposed coincide to more or less with the spread of archaological and architectural Saxon features, such as that of Saxon "hall"-type farmhouses and crossed wooden horse heads at gabletops. Anyway, how does everyone else feel about this? Are there still any fairly consistently occurring features that distinguish Saxon and Franconian varieties of the Lowlands? Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 31 22:14:13 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:14:13 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2004.03.31 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativia Dear Lowlanders, Happy Easter Holidays to all of you who begin to celebrate them this week! Another week and Passover will be upon us again. We have been joined by quite a few New Lowlanders since my last administrative message (March 10, 2004), the last one just a few minutes ago (from my general neck of the woods, in the Seattle area). Welcome to everyone of them! You will find a list of their places of residence at the end of this message. NEWS FLASH: In the middle of April 2004, Lowlands-L will begin its 10th year! Should we plan a special project for our 10th anniversary? If so, are there any volunteer participants? Please, everyone, "new" and "old," make sure you read and understand the rules and guidelines (http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules). If you wish to be temporarily absent, please let me know the dates, and I will be happy to suspend mailings to you. A few of our subscribers have occasional trouble getting their posting submissions to arrive via the listserver. Apparently this is caused by a combination of the “reply-to” message setup of the listserver and individual subscribers’ email program setups. So far we have not been able to identify the exact cause and thus find out why problems occur apparently randomly. However, our setup has been tweaked to lessen the frequency rate of such problems. If you do not see your submissions displayed or have not heard from me after about two days, please contact me. Alternatively, please resend the submissions to (instead of the usual ). If you turn out to be among the minority with this recurring problem, please use lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net from then on. Please do not send the same submissions simultaneously to both addresses, since sorting out duplicates would be too labor-intensive for me. Once in a while people find themselves unsubscribed without notice. Some of them immediately suspect the worst: that I have "booted them out" for some infraction or other. And I know this for sure only about those that contact me. Please do not jump to this conclusion unless you have received prior reprimands and warnings (which has occurred very rarely, not at all for well over one year). If you find yourself disconnected from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the automated server has unsubscribed your address because of repeated "bouncing," i.e., because your mail servers keep informing the listserver that you cannot be reached. Most of the time this is due to temporary disconnection. Sometimes the reason is that a subscriber’s junk mail filter (or "spam" filter) has not been "told" to exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why our mailings do not arrive in your inboxes. So, if Lowlands-L mail stops coming, please first check your "spam" filters and adjust them if necessary, and only contact me about the problem if all of the above fails. Should you indeed be disconnected, please write to me or resubmit an application (http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=subscription). I’ll be more than happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold. Thanks for participating in and supporting Lowlands-L! Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net http://www.lowlands-l.net ***** Places of Residence of New Lowlanders since March 10, 2004: Belarus: Minsk Region: Minsk [1] Belgium: Flemish Brabant (Vlaams-Brabant): Molenstede [1] Brazil: São Paulo: Lençõis Paulista [1] Denmark: Sealand (Sjælland): Holbæk [1] Germany: North Rhine-Westphalia (Nordrhein-Westfalen): Soest [1] Rhineland-Palatine (Rheinland-Pfalz): Landau [1] Indonesia: Jakarta: Jakarta [1] Israel: HaDaron (South Region): Yeruham [1] Netherlands: Southern Holland (Zuid-Holland): Papendrecht [1] Peru: San Martín: Tarapoto [1] Philippines: Mindoro Occidental: San José [1] Poland: Mazowieckie: Warsaw (Warszawa) [1] Spain: Guipúzkoa: Irun [1] Thailand: Bangkok (Krung Thep) District: Bangkok (Krung Thep) [1] United Kingdom: England: Merseyside: Liverpool [1] Yorkshire: York [2] Scotland: Dumfries & Galloway: Dumfries [1] United States of America: California: Costa Mesa [1] San Francisco [1] Kansas: Leoti [1] Maryland: Upper Marlboro [1] Michigan: Grand Rapids [1] Jenison [1] Ohio: Saint Henry [1] Texas: Jasper [1] Washington: Redmond [1] ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 1 01:28:20 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 17:28:20 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.02.29 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.FEB.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze??uws) ======================================================================= From: niels winther [nwi at dfds.dk] Subject: Etymology Ron wrote: > I believe that at one time _pen_ and _pose_ could be used > for the same thing. Nowadays, many people use _pen_ > generically for "(any sort of)writing instrument," pretty > much the way English speakers use "pen." I think > _pose_ ~ _poos'_ is used specifically for (1) > "writing quill" and for (2) "(metal) nib of an ink pen or > fountain pen."........................................... > .... Now, I have no idea where this _pose_ comes from, > and I cannot find any cognate in related languages. > Does any of you have any idea? Hello Ron, In Danish _pennepose_ is the hollow end of the feather from which the quill is cut. Danish _pose_ in general is something swollen, something hollow, something puffed up, most often used nowadays for a small bag or sack. Also used as a verb. Cheers Niels ---------- From: jkrause Subject: Etymology Ron, The words I found in my Pluatdietsch dictionary was "tintfada"--literally "ink feather" or "stolfada" literally "steel feather." Both could be used, apparently to mean "pen." Jim ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Thanks, Niels and Jim, for the input above. Jim, the Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch) word _tintfada_ reminds me of a couple of things. First of all, let me state that I am pretty sure that _tintfada_ is a "semi-loan." The first component, _tint_, must be a loan from ("High") German _Tinte_ 'ink'. If it were an indigenous word I would expect _Dint_. In fact, that is the word in the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) of Germany: _Dinte_ or _Dint_. These are obviously related to English "tint," perhaps loaned from Italian _tinto_, and to the earlier English form _tinct_, going back to Latin _t??nctus_ 'color'. German has _Tinte_ and Yiddish ????? ?? _tint_ for 'ink', feminine gender nouns derived from feminine forms: Old German _tincta_, from Medieval Latin _t??ncta_ 'dyed liquid', related to the verb _tingere_ 'to dye', which is related to German _tunken_ and perhaps to its possible English cognate "to dunk" (originally *"to immerse in dyer's liquid"?). (By the way, Estonian, a Finnic language, made Lowlands Saxon _dint_ into _tint_ -- Germanic d > Finnic t -- and also has _tindipott_ 'ink-well' from Lowlands Saxon _dintpot_ 'ink-well', lit. "ink pot." Latvian, a Baltic language, has _tinte_ for 'ink', probably also from Lowlands Saxon, since Latvian has _d-_ only in more recent loanwords. I am basing my assumptions on the fact that these languages have more and earlier Lowlands Saxon influences than German ones.) As I said, Lowlands Saxon has _dint(e)_ for 'ink'. An alternative word is _blak_ (). Obviously, this is a cognate of English "black," which comes from Old English _bl??c_, said to be of uncertain origin. I cannot think of any cognates in Dutch and German, though Old German has _blah_ (for 'ink'?). The word is alive and well as *the* word for 'ink' in North Germanic varieties: Danish _bl??k_, Norwegian _blekk_, Swedish _bl??ck_, Icelandic _blek_ and Old Norse _blek_. I am wondering if we are dealing with true cognates or with some sort of loaning one way or another. I am wondering if English "black" and Scots _black_ originally meant something like "ink-colored," and if the original word from 'black' was "swart," which would be consistent with the words for 'black' in other Germanic languages: Dutch _zwart_, Afrikaans _swart_, W. Frisian _swart_, Lowlands Saxon _swart_ ~ _swat_, Old Saxon _swart_, Danish _sort_, Norwegian _svart_, Swedish _svart_, Icelandic _sv??rt_, Old Norse _svartr_, German _schwarz_, Yiddish ???????????? _??varc_, Old German _swarz_ < Germanic *_swartaz_. This is consistent with the meanings the cognates in English: "swart" and "swarthy" (~ "swarty") (dark-hued) < Old English _sweart_. English "ink," Scots _ink_, Dutch _ink_, Afrikaans _ink_ and W. Frisian _inket_ apparently go back to Latin _encau(s)tum_ (from Greek ?????????????????? _egk??uston_), denoting a special type of purple ink used by Roman emperors in signatures. Middle English _inke_ ~ _enke_ are reportedly based on Old French _enque_. What about the Dutch, Afrikaans and W. Frisian words, though? Are they derived from French also? As for the donor words (1) _encau(s)tum_ and (2) _t??ncta_ on which some Germanic words for "ink" are based, what is of primary relevance: (a) that (1) follows the route of known early French influences (on the Low Countries and Britain), or (b) that (1) is used in areas once under Roman occupation while the medieval loan (2) and native words (_blak_, etc.) are used in areas that defied or evaded Roman occupation? Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 1 01:42:37 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 17:42:37 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.02.29 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.FEB.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: am114802 at ohio.edu Subject: LL-L "Help Needed" [E]: Questions Concerning Language Schools Dear Lowlanders: I am in the process of planning a three-month trip to study Frisian, Scots, and Icelandic; that is study each language for one month. However, I am having trouble finding language schools for Frisian and Scots. If anyone knows about language schools or tutors that teach Frisian or Scots, could you please send me information via email. Any suggestions would also be greatly appreciated. Thank you kindly. Sincerely, Adam Moskey ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Help needed Hey, Adam! Lucky d..., uh, you! Boy, what a great opportunity! As for Westerlauwer Frisian (the varieties used in the Netherlands), please contact AF?K, the Center for Frisian Adult Education in Ljouwert/Leeuwarden, Netherlands: http://www.language-learning.net/cgi-bin/show/US/orgs/orgSeite18.htm I have a couple of their course books. By the way, their site comes with a nifty course finder utility! Folks, please submit relevant information to the List, since such information would be welcomed by many of us. Best of luck, Adam! What an exciting summer ahead of you! Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 1 17:42:31 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:42:31 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.01 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Brooks, Mark Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.01.25 (03) [E] Frank wrote: "Any other examples of Hindi words in that area?" Several years ago I was reading something about Guyana, and much to my surprise I learned that they had a relatively large population (at least it seemed large to me) of Hindus. As I checked into it, I learned that much like they did elsewhere the British brought in many Indians to their far-flung colonies. Perhaps, there was some mutual contact in the region. Just a thought. Mark ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 1 17:53:37 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:53:37 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Customs" 2004.03.01 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Heinrich Becker Subject: LL-L "customs" >Dear all, > in my hometown - a Reformed enclave - in Western part of Catholic Muensterland close to the Dutch border, people keep still some of very, very old customs since fare more than 500 years. They call it FASTOABEND AND BUXENBEER. Habits are different from Catholic inspired Carneval Almost the young bachelors of the community are gathering in groups and collect eggs and homemade dry sausage for their evening party. By the way, the day is humid enough.Celebration is always held on a farm! The farmer invited his guests with the words: " Wieset so guot und kuomt'n annern Sunndag l?ck to mi up Fastoabend. Fuosel un Beer, Piepen und Tabak, un'n St?ck van'n fett Schwien, alls, wat K??k un Keller vermag, sall de Bi?dden ( pleased ones) nich verwehrt sien. Un makt ju wat Lust un Pl?seer und wieset so guot un kuomt'n Sunndag to de Wirtschaft no'n Branntwien." In English: Be so kind and appear the other Sunday for my Shrovetide party. There will be enough hooch ( rotgut) and beer, pipes and tobacco and a piece of fat pork, everything, what kitchen and cellar can offer. Have a lot of joy and pleasure. Next Sunday we'll meet at the pub for having a brandy. Neighbors of this farmer are supposed to decorate the barn and to prepare on both days the meal from the collected food. After the meal they get together again for dancing. On Sunday after Shrovetide they celebrate their BUXENBEER, initially only for young men ( buxe -= trousers, beer = party ) who were supposed to enjoy the rest of their formerly homemade beer from a wooden jar they called "Teite". Docile Catholics in neighborhood around formerly suspected those heathen habits. Most of them converted later - the price of secularisation. Nowadays it is one of the biggest party in county. In northern Parts of Lowland aerea ( Lower Saxony, Drenthe, Twente or Friesland nor in other parts) I did not find out any similar festivity except riflemen meetings, which you can find all over. Perhaps someone knows, where customs like that still are being held. Sincerely Heinrich Becker ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Customs Thanks a lot for that interesting description (above), Heinrich. Here are just a couple of explanatory notes for other Lowlanders. (1) Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _Fastelavend_ etc. refers to Shrovetide in Roman Catholic communities, while in many Protestant communities it refers to New Year's Eve. (2) Besides 'beer', _Beer_ means 'party' or 'celebration'. Once again, the preferred drink lends an occasion the name, as do "tea" in non-American English (referring to 'dinner' as well) and _Kaffee_ and _kaffe_ (literally "coffee") in Geman- and Scandinavian-speaking communities respectively. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 1 23:38:08 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:38:08 -0800 Subject: LL-L "History" 2004.03.01 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.01 (01) [E] At 09:42 AM 03/01/04 -0800, Brooks, Mark wrote: >Several years ago I was reading something about Guyana, and much to my >surprise I learned that they had a relatively large population (at least it >seemed large to me) of Hindus. As I checked into it, I learned that much >like they did elsewhere the British brought in many Indians to their >far-flung colonies. Perhaps, there was some mutual contact in the region. >Just a thought. Since major economic troubles that have arisen since independence, large numbers have left, including one of my very best friends, who is also my accountant. According to http://geocities.com/TheTropics/Shores/9253/History.html, East Indians came to Guyana as indentured workers beginning at the beginning of the 19th century. Probably locally many Dutch and French influences on the language, which is very hard to distinguish from Trinidadian and other Caribbean dialects. I should ask my friend. Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Canada ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 1 23:49:11 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:49:11 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.01 (04) [LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: Oostfreesk Moy, Ik heb net seyn dat dey websteed' van Plattd?tsk bi d' Arbeid weer updated is. Dey neye websteed' is v??l beter dan dey olde; nou kinst du sp?len sp?len, na 't Oostvreys l?ystern en v??l meer. Kyk mal rin! Kenneth ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Velen dank, Kenneth. > Kyk mal rin! Dat dey l?yd' dat ook douen k??nt, schullen wy j?m ook dey net-adress geven: http://www.platt-in-action.de/ Ik w?nsch Jou veel pleseyr daar mit. Gr?ytens! Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 2 05:05:02 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:05:02 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.01 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: "Etymology" > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Etymology > > Dear Lowlanders, > > Here's another Middle Saxon ("Middle Low German") loan in English > (apparently not in Scots), though the folks at the Oxford Dictionary aren't > quite sure about it and if it is from the "Middle" period: > > QUILL: > (1) large feather; (2) hollow stem of a feather > (a) (feather) pen (for > writing with ink), (b) (feather) plectrum, (c) (feather) toothpick; (3) > porcupine spine; (4) curled-up piece of cinnamon or cinchona bark. > > < (Middle) Saxon _quiele_ > > If this word survived in a Modern Lowlands Saxon ("Low German") dialect, I > would expect it to be *_kwyle_ (* ~ * *['kwi:le]) or *_kwyl_ > (* ~ * *['kwi:l]). However, I am not aware of any such word. > Is anyone else? I cannot find any such word in the language varieties of > our precious Saxonized neighbors to the north either, nor in Dutch and > Afrikaans, two of the Franconian cousins of Lowlands Saxon. In Dutch I > would expect *_kwijl_, but such a word does not seem to exist in this sense, > and "quill" is rendered as _pen_, _schacht_ or _stekel_. In Afrikaans I > would expect *_kwyl_, but again, this does not seem to be used in the sense > of "quill," and _skag_ (pl. _skagte_), _pen_ and _stekel_ are used, > depending upon context. W. Frisian has _pin_ ~ _pinne_ and _stikel_. Hello Ron ! In Eastern Friesland Low Saxon there is a noun "kw?l" and a corresponding verb "kw?len" but these have nothing to do with feathers. The verb means "to slaver" and the noun denotes the spittle running out of somebody's mouth. > In Modern Lowlands Saxon, these correspond to _schacht_ ([Sax(t)]) ~ > _schecht_ ([SEx(t)]) 'thin stick', 'switch', 'crop', _pen_ ( [pE.n]) > 'writing instrument', 'pen', 'quill', and _stekel_ ( ~ > ['ste:kl] ~ [stE:kl]) 'spine', 'prick', 'quill'. Obviously, _pen_ is > related to English "pen" and to Scots _pen_, derived from Old French > _penne_, which goes back to Latin _penna_ 'feather'. Scandinavian, too, has > _pen_ for 'pen', Icelandic _penni_. The EFLS term for thin stick is "stik" and a pen is named "p?en" Regards Holger ---------- From: Holger Weigelt Subject: "Etymology" > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Etymology > > Dear Lowlanders, > > Here's another Middle Saxon ("Middle Low German") loan in English > (apparently not in Scots), though the folks at the Oxford Dictionary aren't > quite sure about it and if it is from the "Middle" period: > > QUILL: > (1) large feather; (2) hollow stem of a feather > (a) (feather) pen (for > writing with ink), (b) (feather) plectrum, (c) (feather) toothpick; (3) > porcupine spine; (4) curled-up piece of cinnamon or cinchona bark. > > < (Middle) Saxon _quiele_ > > If this word survived in a Modern Lowlands Saxon ("Low German") dialect, I > would expect it to be *_kwyle_ (* ~ * *['kwi:le]) or *_kwyl_ > (* ~ * *['kwi:l]). However, I am not aware of any such word. > Is anyone else? I cannot find any such word in the language varieties of > our precious Saxonized neighbors to the north either, nor in Dutch and > Afrikaans, two of the Franconian cousins of Lowlands Saxon Hello Ron ! I just wrote about the EFLS words "kw?l" and "kw?len" which have nothing to do with feathers but I forgot to write the following: Why don't You try it with German "Kiel" ? A "Federkiel" exactly means the lower part of a feather where it is attached to the bird's skin but the word also means the writing tool as a whole. You find the same word in LS. The word has "keel" as an other meaning, too. Greetings Holger ---------- From: Holger Weigelt Subject: "Etymology" > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Etymology > > Thanks, Niels and Jim, for the input above. > > Jim, the Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch) word _tintfada_ reminds me > of a couple of things. > > First of all, let me state that I am pretty sure that _tintfada_ is a > "semi-loan." The first component, _tint_, must be a loan from ("High") > German _Tinte_ 'ink'. If it were an indigenous word I would expect _Dint_. > In fact, that is the word in the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) of Germany: > _Dinte_ or _Dint_. These are obviously related to English "tint," Not everywhere in the LS area ! - EFLS only uses "enkert", "enkt" or "inkt" which is obviously related to English "ink". A word "tint" or "dint" isn't known anywhere in Eastern Friesland. The only possibility for this was if it was directly taken from German "Tinte" when it would be "tient" which I never heard. Holger ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Moyen, Holger! Thanks for the input (above). > A word "tint" or "dint" isn't known anywhere in Eastern Friesland. The only > possibility for this was if it was directly taken from German "Tinte" when > it would be "tient" which I never heard. I, too, am suspecting it to be a German loan. > Why don't You try it with German "Kiel" ? Indeed! Good one, Holger! German _(Feder-)Kiel_ and LS _(vedder-)keyl_ 'thick bottom part of a feather'. I think the reason why I didn't make the connection is that I was expecting something with /kw.../ (). By the way, the origin of German _(Feder-)Kiel_ and LS _(vedder-)keyl_ appears to be unknown. Lowlanders, I'm wondering if this goes back to a Romance variety. The only thing I can think of in French is _quille_ in the sense of 'pin (of ninepins/skittle)' (German _Kegel_, LS _kegel_) ... Hmmm ... _kegel_ and _quille_ may be related. _Kegel_ goes back to Germanic *_kagila_, originally probably meaning 'pin', 'stick', 'pole' 'wooden figure', diminutive of dialectal _kag_ 'stem'. _Kegel_ is related to Dutch _kegel_ 'icicle'. Incidentally, the other French word _quille_, like Spanish _quilla_ (> Basque _gila_?), Portuguese _quilha_, Italian _chiglia_ and Romanian _chil?_ appear to be Germanic loans, related to their English counterpart "keel" < Middle English _kele_ Old Norse _kj?lr_ (cognate of Old English _cele_ 'bill of (ancient-type) ship'). (English > Manx _kewyl_, _kiouyl_?) Note also (Middle Saxon _kyl_ ~ _kil_ ~ _kel_ >) Lowlands Saxon _kyl_ ~ _keyl_ ( ~ > German _Kiel_, Estonian _kiil_, Latvian _??lis_, Lithuanian _kilis_, Polish _kil_?), Afrikaans _kiel_, Dutch _kiel_ (> Russian ???? _kil'_?), W. Frisian _kyl_, Danish _k?l_, Norwegian _kj?l_ (> Saami _gielas_?), Swedish _k?l _ (> Finnish _k?li_), Icelandic _kj?lur_, German _Kiel_ and Yiddish ??? _kil_. Note also Slavonic varieties: Polish _kil_, Czech _k?l_, Slovak _k?l_, Serbo-Croatian _kilj_, Bulgarian ??? _kil_, Ukrainian ???? _kil'_ and Russian ???? _kil'_. Sorting through *this* loaning "mess" looks like a challenge, doesn't it? Kumpelmenten! Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 2 15:45:07 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 07:45:07 -0800 Subject: LL-L "History" 2004.03.02 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: From: "Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc." Subject: Cultural history These days Belgium gets the international press because of a court case against a Mr Dutroux & Co for kidnapping at least 6 girls and murdering at least 4. Dutroux didn't act alone, and it took quite some time to investigators to check all his connections and eventual networks. So this case is brought in court about 8 years after Dutroux is caught. This is even a long time for Belgian standards. It was preceded by a lot of scandals, including the withdrawal of the investigation from an examining magistrate (onderzoeksrechter; juge d' instruction) by the Belgian High Court (Hof van Cassatie, also Hof van Verbreking, Cour de Cassation), because he attended a spaghetti "souper" (evening dinner) organized by the friends a saved girl. This sentence is well known as the "spaghetti-arrest". Magistrates have to be impartial, but the population didn't understand, and participated largely at a massively attended protest march (called "witte mars" because of the white ribbons worn at the occasion) Since Dutroux was caught, shortly after the disappearance of a (saved) girl from Bertrix, in the Luxemburgian Ardennes, the "Assisenhof / Cour d'Assices" (jury court) of Arlon is competent. We use the opportunity for telling a few things about Arlon (Arel in Luxembourgish, Aarlen in Dutch) The town surrounds a fortification on a steep hill, at the crossing point of the old Roman road W-E from Reims to Trier with the Roman road N-S from Tongeren to Metz. The Roman name of the site was "Orolaunum vicus". The pagus of Arlon became a Carolingian County, later (around 1200) a marquisate. In 1214 it became part of the the County (later Duchy) of Luxembourg. Luxemburg became the "D?pt. des For?ts" under French occupation. At the Vienna Congress it was assigned to the king of the Netherlands, separately from the remainder of the Southern provinces, as a Grand-Duchy, as compensation for the territories the Nassau family lost in Germany. This also explains why it was subject to a separate hereditary regime, and went to another branch of the Nassau family at the end of the 19th century. But before, there had been the Belgian revolution. As a result of the peace treaty of London, the East of the province of Limburg as also the East of Luxembourg was left to the King of the Netherlands. Basically Luxembourg was split along the Romance - Germanic language borders. For strategic reasons though, the fortified city of Arlon in the South-East, and the surrounding villages, though linguistically Germanic, were granted to Belgium. Arlon became the capital of the Belgian West of Luxembourg. Since the large majority of the new province was Romance-speaking, French became rapidly the leading language in Arlon. Germanic dialects are still spoken by some people in the villages around Arlon. Some groups are promoting standardized Luxembourgish in the area, as a support for language survival. Regards, Roger ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 3 17:43:46 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 09:43:46 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Virus protection" 2004.03.03 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Virus protection Folks, Several nasty computer viruses are making the rounds again. Please make sure your computers are safe from them, Lowlanders. To help you with this, I am recycling a few pieces of information I have received about this. Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net http://www.lowlands-l.net P.S.: And welcome to all of you who joined or rejoined us recently! *** Here is a list list of things that you ***MUST*** remember about virtually all viruses these days: 1. They fake the sender (From:) address, meaning... If you receive a bounce saying that you sent a message, or that you sent a virus, you are probably not infected. AND If you receive an e-mail from someone in the school that has a virus, they probably aren't the ones that are infected. 2. If you get an *unusual* message from anyone--EVEN FROM SOMEONE YOU KNOW--with an attachment, do NOT open it. Please remember these important tips and you will minimize your risk of becoming infected, and maximize your sanity when you start getting virus related bounce messages. For more information about this generation of viruses, keep reading. Otherwise, have a good day! Computer viruses are becoming very sophisticated. They contain their own e-mail "servers", which allow them to send out forged e-mail, they scan your computer looking for e-mail addresses to use in the "From:" address of these forged e-mails, and they install backdoors on your computer so people can access your files remotely or use your PC to attack other PCs. Many providers do an excellent job at keeping you all protected from these viruses, but since the viruses spread faster than ever nowadays (covering the globe in mere hours), you can still be exposed before virus signature files can be created and updated on the university's central virus scanning servers. *** There is a new variant on a recent virus. Here are some of the subject lines you may receive: (Blank) Announcement ApprovedNews Attention automatic responder Bug Current Status EXPIRED ACCOUNT For your information hello hi, it's me hi IMPORTANT Information Warning Love is Love is... Please read Please reply Re: Approved Re: Thank You Re: Read it immediately read now! Read this Readme Recent news Recent news Something for you Undeliverable message Unknown You have 1 day left You use illegal File Sharing... Your IP was logged Your account is about to be expired Your credit card Your order is being processed Your order was registered Your request is being processed Your request was registered And here are some of the bodies it may have: Check the attached document. Details are in the attached document. You need Microsoft Office to open it. Greetings Here is the document. Here it is I have your password :) I wait for your reply. I wait for your reply. I'm waiting Okay I'm waiting Information about you Is that from you? Is that yours? Kill the writer of this document! OK Everything ok? Please see the attached file for details Please, reply Read the details. Reply See the attached file for details See you Here it is See you Something about you Take it The document was sent in compressed format. We have received this document from your e-mail. You are a bad writer You are bad And here are some of the attachment names: creditcard.bat creditcard.zip details.zip mail.zip notes.zip part1.zip paypal.zip photo.zip textfile.zip vpf.zip website.zip %random characters%.zip If you get a message that match these criteria. Delete it immediately. For more information on viruses, or to see if you just received a virus message go to: http://vil.mcafee.com This site will not only give you a rundown of the current virus threats, but will give you the option of searching for viruses based on keywords (e.g. the subject line of the suspicious e-mail). *** There is another virus making the rounds. This one comes with a .ZIP file that is password protected. The e-mail will tell you the password to open the .ZIP file. If you get this, please delete it. More and more viruses are using .ZIP files to propogate because these files are generally not blocked by e-mail servers. Rule of thumb: If you get a strange message with an attachment, just delete it. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 3 18:43:35 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 10:43:35 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.03 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Morphology Dear Lowlanders, I am fascinated by what seems to be morphemic change. This includes Lowlandic cases of seeming change of verb roots. (Note my use of "seeming". I am implying a question, or an invitation for you to explain.) Both in Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch) and in Afrikaans it looks as though the infinitive suffix /-(@)n/ has been incorporated into the roots of the verbs for 'to go', 'to stand' and 'to do'. (< > = conventional German-based orthographic representation) First "regular" cases ('go' 'stand' 'do'): Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German): Root: /gaa-/ /staa-/ /dou-/ Infinitive: gaan () staan () dou(e)n () 1st sg.: ik ga () ik sta () ik dou () 1st pl.: wy gaat ~ gaan () wy staat ~ staan () wy dout ~ doun () Standard Dutch: Root: /gaa-/ /staa-/ /duu-/ Infinitive: gaan staan doen 1st sg.: ik ga ik sta ik doe 1st pl.: wij gaan wij staan wij doen Now "irregular" ones: Standard Afrikaans (which has -0 suffixes throughout): Root: /gaan-/ /staan-/ /duun-/ Infinitive: gaan staan doen 1st sg.: ek gaan ek staan ek doen 1st pl.: wy gaan wy staan wy doen Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch): Root: /gaan-/ /staan-/ /doun-/ Infinitive: (/gaan- at n/) gane () (/staan- at n/) stane () (/doun- at n/) doune () 1st sg.: ek ga () ek sta () ik dou () 1st pl.: wi gane () wy stane () wy doune () (Please correct me if I am wrong anywhere.) Two questions: (1) Is it really absorption of infinitive /-n/ into the root? (If not, what is it?) (2) Are there other Lowlands or related language varieties that do this or something of this sort? Thanks in anticipation. Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 3 20:26:42 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:26:42 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.03 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Morphology Dear Lowlanders, OK, so I'm responding to my own request ... ;-) > Both in Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch) and in Afrikaans > it looks as though the infinitive suffix /-(@)n/ has been incorporated > into the roots of the verbs for 'to go', 'to stand' and 'to do'. I believe the verb "to see" falls into this category also: (< > = conventional German-based orthographic representation) Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German): Root: /zey-/ Infinitive: sey(e)n () 1st sg.: ik sey () 1st pl.: wy seyt ~ sey(e)n () Imperative: sey! Standard Dutch: Root: /zii-/ Infinitive: zien 1st sg.: ik zie 1st pl.: wij zien Imperative: zie! Standard Afrikaans (which has -0 suffixes throughout): Root: /sii-/ Infinitive: sien 1st sg.: ek sien 1st pl.: wy sien Imperative: sien! Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch): Root: /zeyn-/ Infinitive: seyne(n) ( ~ ) 1st sg.: ek sey ( ~ ) 1st pl.: wy seyne ( ~ ) Inperative: sey! () Note that Plautdietsch seems inconsistent in the cases of _doune(n)_ ('to do') and _seyne(n)_ ('to see'). This is what I suspect is going on here: Basically, Afrikaans and Plautdietsch do not permit, or do not "like," a verb root to end with a (long?) vowel or a diphthong. To overcome this "deficiency" in a few roots, they insert or incorporate an /-n-/, which may or may not be "inspired" by infinitive /-n/. In Plautdietsch, the seeming inconsistency in _doune(n)_ ('to do') and _seyne(n)_ ('to see') -- /-n-/ in the infinitive and the plural forms but not in the 1st person singular and in the imperative forms -- could be explained in the following way. Plautdietsch does not permit verb-root-final vowels or diphthongs only if the root takes on a suffix that begins with a vowel. This would explain permissible _ek ga_ (since this has a zero suffix) versus non-permissible *_wy gae(n)_ (*), correct _wy gane(n)_ (). While in the case of Plautdietsch there seem to be indications that the /-n-/ is truly epenthetic (i.e., conditionally inserted to solve an occasional morphophonological problem), Afrikaans seems to have actually incorporated the /-n-/ on the morphemic level (since there are no instances without it). Any alternative analyses, anyone? Regards< Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 3 22:21:55 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:21:55 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.03 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Morphology Oops! Corrections: > Standard Afrikaans (which has -0 suffixes throughout): > Root: /sii-/ > Infinitive: sien > 1st sg.: ek sien > 1st pl.: wy sien > Imperative: sien! This should have been: Root: (/sii-n-/ >) /siin-/ sien 'to see', sien! 'see!' As in the other cases: Root: (/gaa-n-/ >) /gaan-/ gaan 'to go', 'go!' Root: (/staa-n-/ >) /staan-/ staan 'to stand', 'stand!' Root: (/duu-n-/ >) /duun-/ doen 'to do', 'do!' Cf. Standard Dutch: Root: /zii- at n/ sien 'to see', /zii-0/ zie! 'see!' Root: /gaa- at n/ gaan 'to go', /gaa-0/ ga! 'go!' Root: /staa- at n/ staan 'to stand', /staa-0/ sta! 'stand!' Root: /duu- at n-/ doen 'to do', /duu-0/ doe! 'do!' What about Zeelandic (Zeeuws) and Western Flemish? Since Afrikaans has this trait, I wonder if the "seeds" for this were inherited from Zeelandic (Zeeuws). I further wonder if this can be corroborated by means of data from Dutch-, or rather Zeelandic-based creoles like Skepi/Essequibo/Rupununi (Guayana), Berbice (Guayana), Petjoh/Pecok (Java, Indonesia) and Virgin Islands Creole ("Negerhollands," "Negerzeeuws," U.S. Virgin Islands, formerly Danish West Indies). Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 4 01:19:04 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 17:19:04 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.03 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: "Etymology" > From: Holger Weigelt > Subject: "Etymology" > > > From: R. F. Hahn > > Subject: Etymology > > > > Dear Lowlanders, > > > > Here's another Middle Saxon ("Middle Low German") loan in English > > (apparently not in Scots), though the folks at the Oxford Dictionary > aren't > > quite sure about it and if it is from the "Middle" period: > > > > QUILL: > > (1) large feather; (2) hollow stem of a feather > (a) (feather) pen (for > > writing with ink), (b) (feather) plectrum, (c) (feather) toothpick; (3) > > porcupine spine; (4) curled-up piece of cinnamon or cinchona bark. > > > > < (Middle) Saxon _quiele_ > > > > If this word survived in a Modern Lowlands Saxon ("Low German") dialect, I > > would expect it to be *_kwyle_ (* ~ * *['kwi:le]) or > *_kwyl_ > > (* ~ * *['kwi:l]). However, I am not aware of any such > word. ... > Hello Ron ! > I just wrote about the EFLS words "kw?l" and "kw?len" which have nothing to > do with feathers but I forgot to write the following: > Why don't You try it with German "Kiel" ? A "Federkiel" exactly means the > lower part of a feather where it is attached to the bird's skin but the word > also means the writing tool as a whole. > You find the same word in LS. The word has "keel" as an other meaning, too. > Greetings > Holger > ... > Moyen, Holger! > > Thanks for the input (above). > > > A word "tint" or "dint" isn't known anywhere in Eastern Friesland. The > only > > possibility for this was if it was directly taken from German "Tinte" when > > it would be "tient" which I never heard. > > I, too, am suspecting it to be a German loan. > > > Why don't You try it with German "Kiel" ? > > Indeed! Good one, Holger! German _(Feder-)Kiel_ and LS _(vedder-)keyl_ > 'thick bottom part of a feather'. I think the reason why I didn't make the > connection is that I was expecting something with /kw.../ (). By the > way, the origin of German _(Feder-)Kiel_ and LS _(vedder-)keyl_ appears to > be unknown. > Hello Ron ! The meaning of German "Kiel" in "Federkiel" as well as in the boat's "Kiel" directly correspondents with "Keil" (wedge, jack) which in LS is "k?l" (or German based orthography: "Kiel"). Possibly "Kiel" is a LS loan in German. Regards Holger ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 4 01:21:34 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 17:21:34 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.03 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.MAR.2004 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: "Morphology" > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Morphology > > Dear Lowlanders, > > I am fascinated by what seems to be morphemic change. This includes > Lowlandic cases of seeming change of verb roots. > > (Note my use of "seeming". I am implying a question, or an invitation for > you to explain.) > > Both in Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch) and in Afrikaans it looks as > though the infinitive suffix /-(@)n/ has been incorporated into the roots of > the verbs for 'to go', 'to stand' and 'to do'. > > (< > = conventional German-based orthographic representation) > > First "regular" cases ('go' 'stand' 'do'): > > Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German): > Root: /gaa-/ /staa-/ /dou-/ > Infinitive: gaan () staan () dou(e)n () > 1st sg.: ik ga () ik sta () ik dou () > 1st pl.: wy gaat ~ gaan () > wy staat ~ staan () > wy dout ~ doun () > > Standard Dutch: > Root: /gaa-/ /staa-/ /duu-/ > Infinitive: gaan staan doen > 1st sg.: ik ga ik sta ik doe > 1st pl.: wij gaan wij staan wij doen > > Now "irregular" ones: > > Standard Afrikaans (which has -0 suffixes throughout): > Root: /gaan-/ /staan-/ /duun-/ > Infinitive: gaan staan doen > 1st sg.: ek gaan ek staan ek doen > 1st pl.: wy gaan wy staan wy doen > > Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch): > Root: /gaan-/ /staan-/ /doun-/ > Infinitive: (/gaan- at n/) gane () > (/staan- at n/) stane () > (/doun- at n/) doune () > 1st sg.: ek ga () ek sta () ik dou () > 1st pl.: wi gane () > wy stane () > wy doune () > > (Please correct me if I am wrong anywhere.) > > Two questions: > > (1) Is it really absorption of infinitive /-n/ into the root? (If not, what > is it?) > > (2) Are there other Lowlands or related language varieties that do this or > something of this sort? > > Thanks in anticipation. > > Reinhard/Ron > Eastern Friesland Lowlands Saxon (Low German) has: Root: /g?-/ /st?-/ /dau-/ Infinitive: g?n () st?n () daun () 1st sg.: ik g? () ik st? () ik dau () w? st?nt ~ st?t () w? daunt ~ daut ~ dau* () *some speakers use such reduced forms by time but those aren't possible in all cases (_g?_ and _dau_ but _st?nt_/_st?t_). Regards Holger ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 4 15:24:24 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 07:24:24 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.03 (05) [E] My Modern Danish dictionary says that Low Saxon 'kiel' means the same as wyk (Danish 'vig', Dutch 'wijk'), and the is also the meaning used in the city name Kiel - originally 'tome Kiel' which in Danish would be 'i kilen' or 'i vigen' judging from my dictionary Cheers, Kenneth > Hello Ron ! > The meaning of German "Kiel" in "Federkiel" as well as in the boat's "Kiel" > directly correspondents with "Keil" (wedge, jack) which in LS is "k?l" (or > German based orthography: "Kiel"). Possibly "Kiel" is a LS loan in German. > Regards > Holger ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 4 15:29:48 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 07:29:48 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language minorities" 2004.03.04 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. Subject: Language minorities A couple of months ago, I remember, there was some reporting in this list about Flemish as language used in the UK. Earlier this week I found an article about the subject. Sorry in case it is the same source as people referred to some time ago. I must confess I'm rather sceptical about this kind of things. It is very well possible a scientist in the year 2200 will, after reading a travel journal of a Limburgian, who accidentally found a Limburgish speaking emigrated family while traveling in Patagonia, state that Limburgish was one of the Patagonian languages. The article I found is reproduced below (Annex 1) as well as the complete contents of the book it has been scanned from (Annex 2): Languages in Britain & Ireland, Edited by Glanville Price, 2000, Blackwell, ISBN 0-631-21581-6 (pbk), xi + 240 pp. (SEK 354 on sales, originally SEK 418, at Akademibokhandeln in the Nordstan mall in G?teborg) Flemish is dealt with at the same level as Scots. All Indian languages, so very much present in the UK, are just dealt with in chapter 19 "Community languages". Regards, Roger --- ANNEX 1 --- [p. 184] [Chapter] 15 Flemish in Wales Lauran Toorians ' [...] and I have also spoken with some who still spoke Flemish well, as they have learned it from their parents and from father to son.' Lucas de Heere (1534-84), a lesser known painter from Ghent, wrote these words, in Flemish and partly in the margin, in his manuscript 'A short description of England, Scotland and Ireland, gathered from the best authors by L.D.H.' ( Chotzen and Draak 1937, 48; Chotzen 1937, 102). As a Protestant, de Heere was formally banned from Flanders in 1568, by which time he was already in England where he remained in exile until early 1577. De Heere probably wrote his 'Short description' in the early 1570s and added the words quoted above to his brief account of how Flemings came to eastern England in 1106 and were transferred from there to West Wallia by the English king. As a source of this historical information he refers to Humphry Lhuyd. Apparently de Heere travelled a great deal and visited Pembrokeshire in person. His remark that some people there still spoke Flemish in his own time should be taken seriously. After all, Flemish was de Heere's own mother tongue. How did people from Flanders come to south-western Wales and how did they manage to keep their own cultural identity, including their language? Scarcity of historical sources makes these questions hard to answer in great detail, but an outline is possible. Tradition has it that a large group of people was forced out of Flanders by flooding, but this detail seems to rest mainly on folk-tradition. Though inundations were frequent in the Low Countries, in the period in question no such flooding was disastrous enough to force a substantial part of the population to emigrate. In fact, large numbers of Flemings had already come to England in the army of William the Conqueror. Later they were welcomed as merchants, as citizens for new boroughs or as colonists in new settlements. It seems true that Henry II found the influence which Flemings gained in his kingdom threatening and banished them to south-western Wales. The details, however, are not very clear. In reality these people seem to have left the Low Countries for various reasons. For the nobility this was a means of acquiring land and opportunities for their younger sons. Other adventurers, and especially farmers, escaped the over-populated and highly urbanized county of Flanders and found a new frontier in the Anglo-Norman kingdom in Britain. Merchants were welcomed with their expertise, which was unrivalled in north-western Europe. They could secure trade of, especially, wool and fleeces for the Flemish market. This way Flemings ended up not only in England and in Wales but also in Scotland and even in Ireland (Toorians 1996, 1998). -- Flemish in Wales [p.] 185 What makes Pembrokeshire special among the areas with Flemish settlers is the fact that it was only here (and perhaps, but surely on a lesser scale, in upper Clydesdale south of Glasgow) that they retained their identity as a group for several generations and even managed to cling on to their own language. Closer in time to their arrival than Lucas de Heere we have the important comment by the Welsh historian and geographer Giraldus Cambrensis or Gerald of Wales (c. 1146-1223) that his brother, Philip de Barri, was once addressed in Flemish by a local knight in Haverfordwest, and apparently was able to understand the language. Strictly in relation to the language, this is all the evidence we have. Neither the English nor the Welsh dialects of the area have preserved elements which could with any certainty be labelled Flemish. Only place-names reveal the presence of the sturdy settlers who once conquered and kept this area from the Welsh. In the course of time their language became English and the area became known as 'Little England beyond Wales'. Places with names like Flemingston or Flimston clearly recall the Flemings. Wiston is Wizo's town and can boast one of the best-preserved motte-and-balley castles in Britain. Because of its bloody history this is also the best-documented place in the written history of the Flemish settlement in Pembrokeshire (Chotzen 1933; Toorians 1990, 1998). Especially interesting is Walwyn's Castle, where early spellings of the place-name, like Walewynecastle from 1307, suggest a Dutch/Flemish pronunciation of the name. As I have argued earlier (Toorians 1995, 99-103) this may be the place where the Welsh personal name Gwalchmai was equated with the Continental name Wal(e)wain, thus laying the foundation for the Gawain of Arthurian romance. Since also a mysteriously lost book by the author of the Middle Dutch Reynard may have had a Welsh connection (all we know is the title Madoc, which is a Welsh personal name), the most lasting influence of the Flemish presence in Wales may well be of a literary kind. That, on the other hand, fighting remained an important occupation for the Flemings in Pembrokeshire explains how Irish annals can describe Strongbow's invasion army in 1169 as 'a fleet of Flemings'. Probably all the Flemings we find in twelfthand thirteenth-century Ireland will have come from (or through) south-western Wales. Wool from the area remained important for the Flemish cloth industry well into the fourteenth century and when in 1353 Carmarthen was made the sole staple town for the wool trade in Wales, Haverfordwest was recognized as an 'English town' and as such was exempt from this new regulation. Thus the Flemings created their own 'Little England beyond Wales'. References Chotzen, Th. 1933 1934. Willem van Brabant en Owain ap Cadwgan. Annales de la Soci?t? d'?mulation de Bruges, 76:65-82. - 1937. Some sidelights on Cambro-Dutch relations. Transactions of the Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion, 101-44. -and Draak, A. M. E. (eds) 1937. Beschrijving der Britsche Eilanden door Lucas de Heere. Een ge?llustreerd geschrift uit zijn Engelsche ballingschap. Antwerp. Toorians, L. 1990. Wizo Flandrensis and the Flemish settlement in Pembrokeshire. Cambridge Medieval Celtic Studies, 20:99-118. -- [p. ] 186 Lauran Toorians -1995. Nogmaals 'Walewein van Melle' en de V1aarns-Keltische contacten. Queeste, 2:97-112. -1996. Flemish settlements in twelfth-century Scotland (with an Appendix: Handlist of Flemings in Scotland in the twelfth and thirteenth century). Revue belge de philologie et d'histoire, 74:659-93. - 1998. V1aarnse nederzettingen in Keltische gebieden. In Toorians, Lauran (ed.), Kelten en de Nederlanden van prehistorie tot heden, Louvain, 69-88. --- ANNEX 2 --- [p. v] Contents The Contributors vii List of Maps and Figures viii Preface ix Editor's Acknowledgements x Note on References xi Introduction 1 1 Prehistoric Britain 3 Glanville Price 2 Irish in Ireland 6 Cathair ? Dochartaigh 3 Irish in Early Britain 37 Glanville Price 4 Scottish Gaelic 44 Kenneth MacKinnon 5 Manx 58 Robert L. Thomson 6 British 70 Glanville Price 7 Welsh 78 Janet Davies 8 Cornish 109 Philip Payton 9 Cumbric 120 Glanville Price 10 Pictish 127 Glanville Price 11 Latin 132 Glanville Price 12 English 141 Glanville Price -- [P. ] vi Contents 13 Scots 159 Jeremy J. Smith 14 Norse and Norn 171 Michael P Barnes 15 Flemish in Wales 184 Lauran Toorians 16 French in the Channel Islands 187 Glanville Price 17 Anglo-Norman 197 D. A. Trotter 18 Romani 207 Glanville Price 19 Community Languages 213 Viv Edwards Name Index 229 Subject Index 237 ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 4 17:05:30 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:05:30 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.04 (03) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Fr?d?ric Baert Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.03 (04) [E] >From: R. F. Hahn >Subject: Morphology > >Oops! Corrections: > >> Standard Afrikaans (which has -0 suffixes throughout): >> Root: /sii-/ >> Infinitive: sien >> 1st sg.: ek sien >> 1st pl.: wy sien >> Imperative: sien! > >This should have been: > >Root: (/sii-n-/ >) /siin-/ sien 'to see', sien! 'see!' > >As in the other cases: > >Root: (/gaa-n-/ >) /gaan-/ gaan 'to go', 'go!' >Root: (/staa-n-/ >) /staan-/ staan 'to stand', 'stand!' >Root: (/duu-n-/ >) /duun-/ doen 'to do', 'do!' > >Cf. Standard Dutch: > >Root: /zii- at n/ sien 'to see', /zii-0/ zie! 'see!' >Root: /gaa- at n/ gaan 'to go', /gaa-0/ ga! 'go!' >Root: /staa- at n/ staan 'to stand', /staa-0/ sta! 'stand!' >Root: /duu- at n-/ doen 'to do', /duu-0/ doe! 'do!' > >What about Zeelandic (Zeeuws) and Western Flemish? > >Since Afrikaans has this trait, I wonder if the "seeds" for this were >inherited from Zeelandic (Zeeuws). I further wonder if this can be >corroborated by means of data from Dutch-, or rather Zeelandic-based creoles >like Skepi/Essequibo/Rupununi (Guayana), Berbice (Guayana), Petjoh/Pecok >(Java, Indonesia) and Virgin Islands Creole ("Negerhollands," "Negerzeeuws," >U.S. Virgin Islands, formerly Danish West Indies). > >Regards, >Reinhard/Ron > Hi Ron and everybody I can answer you for french western flemish and i apologize if you find me too long ! For the case of the verbs you mentionned, we have in french flemish: root : /gae-/ ; /stae-/ ; /duu-/ ; /zie-/ infinitive : gaen ; staen ; duun ; zien 1st sing. : 'k gaen ; 'k staen ; 'k duun ; 'k zien 2nd sing. : gy gae(t) ; gy stae(t) ; gy duu(t) ; gy zie(t) 1st pl. : me gaen ; me staen ; me duun ; me zien 2nd pl. : gydder gae(t) ; gydder stae(t) ; gydder duu(t) ; gydder zie(t) several notes : 1- To the present tense, the verb at the first person (singular or plural) has a plural form ending "-n" and the verb at the second person (singular or plural) has a singular form ending "-t". 2- I put the "-t" of the 2nd person into brackets because it is only pronounced when preceeding a vowel. 3- "me" replaced the oldest "wy" which is not known any more. 4- perhaps the most important here ; a vowel followed by a "n" is often nasalized in french flemish. So in gaen, staen, duun and zien, the "n" is pronounced only before a vowel but under its influence the vowel before it becomes a nasal one. This conducts me to talk about at least three other verbs: first : schlaen (dutch slaan i think, english slay, german schlagen i think). German forms "stehen" and "gehen" seem to prove that we observe in staen and gaen the disappearance of a "h" before the "-en" of the infinitive form. In contrast, German form "schlagen" seem to prove that we observe here the disappearance of a "g". This leads me to a very interesting verb in french flemish (i think): zeggen (dutch zeggen, english say, german sagen). In french flemish at least, its pronunciation is quite complex (especially for a french speaking, i had observed it !): because of the final "-n", the "-gen" group becomes sort of nasal group. This nasal group is able to induce the first "e" of zeggen to become a nasal "e". As a result in "zeggen", the "ggen" is reduced to kind of "nasal aspiration" and tends to disappear. Its influence in this case is to make the first "e" a long nasal vowel. This explains that with "zeggen" you can find at least in french french flemish dictionaries the same verb under the form : "zen". This phenomenon seems to have been in process in french flemish in all the verbs ending with "-gen". As an example the third verb i thought about was "klagen" whose pronounciation is controlled by the same rules as "zeggen". It must be noted that this phenomenon is not only relevant for verbs but also for substantives whose endings are "-gen" like the word "dag ; pl. dagen". To finish about "zeggen" here is its conjugation : Root : /zeg-/ infinitive : zeggen(sometimes zen) 1st sing : 'k zeggen (or sometimes 'k zen) 2nd sing : gy zegt 1st pl. : me zeggen (me zen) To end, i will be curious to know your opinion : i observe that the flemish and dutch "g" often transforms into a "y" in english : "dag" becomes "day" "zeggen" becomes "say" But if "staan" comes from an old "stahn", so i don't think it's related to english "stay". What do you think and know about this? I have another question. You mentionned for the verb "doen" in dutch a root "/duu-/". But in Dutch the verb has only forms "doen" or "doet" i think. In french flemish the forms are (for my language) "duun" and "duut". So i was interested and i asked myself why you used such "/duu-/" root for the dutch. I hope i have been clear ( I remain of course at disposal if not)and that all this was of interest for you. Cheers Frederic Baert ---------- From: Liza du Plooy Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.03 (02) [E] Ron, jy het geskryf: "Standard Afrikaans (which has -0 suffixes throughout): Root: /gaan-/ /staan-/ /duun-/ Infinitive: gaan staan doen 1st sg.: ek gaan ek staan ek doen 1st pl.: wy gaan wy staan wy doen" Ek kan ongelukkig nie jou vraag antwoord nie, maar wou jou net laar weet dat ons nie "wy" gebruik vir 1st pl in Afrikaans nie. Die woord is "ons", dus: ons gaan, ons staan, ons doen. Groete Liza du Plooy ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Morphology Hi, Lowlanders! Dankie, Liza. Ja, ja, dit was natuurlik my fout -- 'n "automatic pilot"-ding. "What a drongo!" sou ek in australies Engels oor myself s?. Verskoon my asseblief! My "breinskakelaar" tussen Nedersaksies, Nederlands en Afrikaans is dikwels defekt ... ;-) Ek stel vertrou in en waardeer die korreksies van my Afrikaanse vriende op die lys. Thanks for the very interesting data (above), Fr?d?ric. You asked: > I have another question. You mentionned for the verb "doen" in dutch a > root "/duu-/". But in Dutch the verb has only forms "doen" or "doet" i > think. In french flemish the forms are (for my language) "duun" and "duut". > So i was interested and i asked myself why you used such "/duu-/" root for > the dutch. /duu-/ is the underlying (linguistically written) representation of _doe-_. The spelling for /uu/ [u:] and /u/ [u] is unique to the Low Franconian group of language varieties, and using for /??/ is also specific to the Low Franconian group, borrowed from French. In linguistic analyses such language-specific orthographic devices are disregarded and the true values are written according to international conventions; thus: Spelled | Phonemic | Phonetic oe | /uu/ /u/ | [u:] [u] uu | /??/ | [y:] Accordingly, what is spelled as _doen_ in Dutch is phonemically /duu-(@)n/ a nd phonetically [du:n]. Did I make myself clear? In other words, try to forget about Dutch spelling when we deal with phonology. > But if "staan" comes from an old "stahn", so i don't think it's related to > english "stay". What do you think and know about this? Hmmm ... Yes and no ... "To stay" is suspected of being a loan, derived from Old French _estayer_ (cf. Modern French _?tayer_). All the "weirder" that Afrikaans and Plautdietsch (Mennonite Lowlands Saxon) have incorporated the /-n-/ into the root (_ek staan_, _ekj stohne_). Here are some extras: MODERN ENGLISH: to do | go | see | stand I do | go | see | stand (thou do(e)st | goest | seest | standest)* he does | goes | sees | stands we do | go | see | stand *(obsolete and replaced with plural "you" in most dialects) OLD ENGLISH: d?n | g?n | s?on~s?on | standan ic d?(e) | g?(e) | s?(i)a | stande ?? d?(e)st | g?(e)st | s?(i)ast | standest he d?(e)? | g?(e)? | s?(i)a? | stande? w? d?a? | g?? | s?(i)a? | standa? W. FRISIAN: dwaan* | gean | sjen | stean ik doch | gean (!) | ik sjoch | stiest do dochst | giest | sjochst | stiest hy docht | giet | sjocht | stiet wy dogge | geane (!) | sjogge | steane (!) *("broken" form, probably from */duaa-n/ < Old Frisian _dua(a)-n_) LOWLANDS SAXON (Low German, Northern, ANS): dou(e)n | gaan | sey(e)n | staan ik dou | ga | sey | sta du days(t) | gays(t) | s?ys(t) | stays(t)* hey dayt | gayt | s?yt | stayt** wy dout~dou(e)n | gaat~gaan | seyt~sey(e)n | staat~staan *(< older /-est/, e.g. /gaa-est/ > gayst) ** (< older /-et/, e.g. /gaa-et/ > gayt) (s- = [z], st- = [st]) LOWLANDS SAXON (Low German, Mennonite, orthographic): doone | go(h)ne | seene~sehne | sto(h)ne ekj/etj do | go(h) | see~se(h) | sto(h) du/d? deist | gei(h)st | sitst | stei(h)st hee deit | gei(h)t | sitt | stei(h)t wie doone | go(h)ne | seene~sehne | sto(h)ne LOWLANDS SAXON (Low German, Mennonite, phonemic (ANS): doune | gane | seyne | stane ek dou | ga | sey | sta du/d? dayst | gayst | sitst | stayst* hey dayt | gayt | sitt | stayt** wy doune | gane | seyne | stane *(< older /-est/, e.g. /gaa-est/ > gayst) ** (< older /-et/, e.g. /gaa-et/ > gayt) (s- = [z], st- = [St]) DUTCH (orthographic): doen | gaan | zien | staan ik doe | ga | zie | sta (jij doet | gaat | ziet | staat)* hij doet | gaat | ziet | staat wij doen | gaan | zien | staan DUTCH (phonemic, ANS): duun | gaan | syn | staan ik du | ga | sy | sta (jey duut | gaat | syt | staat)* hey duut | gaat | syt | staat wey duun | gaan | syn | staan *(former plural replacing widely obsolete _doe /duu/ ...st_) AFRIKAANS (orthographic): doen | gaan | sien | staan ek doen | gaan | sien | staan (!) (jy doen | gaan | sien | staan (!))* hy doen | gaan | sien | staan (!) ons doen | gaan | sien | staan (!) AFRIKAANS (phonemic, ANS): duun | gaan | syn | staan ek duun | gaan | syn | staan (!) (jey duun | gaan | syn | staan (!))* hey duun | gaan | syn | staan (!) ons duun | gaan | syn | staan (!) *(former plural replacing obsolete _doe /duu/ ...(e)st_) MISSINGSCH (German on L. Saxon substrate, orthographic): tun | gehn | sehn | stehn* ich tu | geh | seh | steh* du tus(t) | gehs(t) | siehs(t) | stehs(t)* e? tut | geht | sieht | steht* wi? tun | gehn | sehn | stehn* MISSINGSCH (phonemic, ANS): tuun | geen | seen | steen* ich tu | ge | se | ste* du tuus(t) | gees(t) | sys(t) | stees(t)* er tuut | geet | syt | steet* wir tuun | geen | seen | steen* *(s- = [z], st- = [st]) STANDARD GERMAN (orthographic): tun | gehen | sehen | stehen* ich tue | gehe | sehe | stehe* du tust | gehst | siehst | stehst* er tut | geht | sieht | steht* wir tun | gehen | sehen | stehen* STANDARD GERMAN (phonemic, ANS): tuun | ge(h)en | se(h)en | ste(h)en* ich tue | ge(h)e | se(h)e | ste(h)e* du tuust | geest | syst | steest* er tuut | geet | syt | steet* wir tuun | ge(h)en | se(h)en | ste(h)en* *(s- = [z], st- = [St]) Note W. Frisian forms with "encroached" /-n/ marked by (!), also the Flemish forms for the 1st p. sg., and check them against the Mennonite LS forms. Considering that a high percentage of Mennonite ancestors went to Western Prussia from W. Friesland and from various Low Franconian areas, I suspect that they took /-n-/ with them eastward. I would suggest comparing their dialects with those (now moribund and extinct) non-Mennonite dialects of Western and Eastern Prussia. However, I am not sure if this would tell us anything, since also many non-Mennonites from the farwestern Lowlands emigrated to those regions, and Frisian and Low Franconian influences are likely to be fairly wide-spread. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 4 17:48:04 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:48:04 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.04 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: Vissevasse What does vysevaze mean here? Any relation with Danish "vissevasse"? (deu. Wisch(i)-Wasch(i)) ~ vr?vl, v?s ~ rubbish! I read it in Reynke de Vos. Grymbart sprack vort: ?nu klaget de haze Eyn mereken vnde eyne vysevaze. In Danish we say "vissevasse' for "rubbish", like "vissevasse, den hopper jeg skam ikke p?! Sikke noget v?s" Is 'eyn vysevaze' a person (here: animal) saying rubbish? or can it mean something else. Thanks in advance, Kenneth ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Help needed Hey, Kenneth! > Grymbart sprack vort: ?nu klaget de haze > Eyn mereken vnde eyne vysevaze. This is how I understand it (in English of about the same period): Grimbeard spake forth "now lamenteth the Hare A Fayned Fable and a Twittle-Twattle-Thynge. And in Modern English: Grimbeard continued, "Now the hare complained, 'A fairy-tale and a bunch of hooey!' So, I understand _vysevaze_ to be a countable noun in Middle Saxon, "a bunch of garbage," "a made-up, nonsensical story," etc. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 4 18:55:02 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:55:02 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.04 (05) [E/F] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Stella en Henno Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.04 (03) [A/E] [Ron sei:] ----- > W. FRISIAN: > dwaan* | gean | sjen | stean > ik doch | gean (!) | ik sjoch | stiest > do dochst | giest | sjochst | stiest > hy docht | giet | sjocht | stiet > wy dogge | geane (!) | sjogge | steane (!) > > *("broken" form, probably from */duaa-n/ < Old Frisian _dua(a)-n_) Net alheel korrekt: "ik stean", ynstee fan "ik stiest". Dialektysk komt hjir ek "ston" foar, dat wierskynlik weromgiet op Aldfrysk "stonda", en dit stie ek oan 'e basis fan de measte Noard- en Eastfryske foarmen. It Aldfrysk hie twa stammen: sta:n en stonda d?r't de earste meast Westerlauwersk is. Allyksa mei "ga:n" en "gunga" yn it Aldfrysk. Dus "ik gean" komt fan 'e earste ?f, wylst dialektysk "ik gon" fan 'e twadde ?fkomt. D?rby komt ek yn ?ldere teksten "ik sjen" en "ik dwaan" foar. It liket derop (mar ik kin mis w?ze) dat dy foarmen frij ?ld binne en miskjin dat de foarmen "ik sjoch" en "ik doch" ?t de twadde en tredde persoan iental komme, troch analogy. At myn ?nth?ld my net mist, kaam ek wol "wy dwane" esfh foar. Sokke foarmen binne yn it Stedsk (wij doene, wij gane, wy siene esfh) ek foar. Dialekten dy't "ik gon" sizze, hewwe ek "wy gonne" esfh. Mar "ik dwaan" is minder "gewoan" as "ik doch", en miskjin al ?tstoarn ? Mar faaks witte oaren op 'e list der mear fan; ik wenje net yn Frysl?n, dat, sa faak hear ik gjin libben Frysk mear (?tsein by femylje). Henno Brandsma ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Morphology Ik tank, beste Henno. > Net alheel korrekt: "ik stean", ynstee fan "ik stiest". Ja, dit was in "kopiearje-en-lymje"-fersin ... alweer it "automatic pilot"-syndrom. ;-) > Dus "ik gean" komt fan 'e earste ?f, wylst dialektysk "ik gon" fan 'e twadde > ?fkomt. > D?rby komt ek yn ?ldere teksten "ik sjen" en "ik dwaan" foar. > D?rby komt ek yn ?ldere teksten "ik sjen" en "ik dwaan" foar. > At myn ?nth?ld my net mist, kaam ek wol "wy dwane" esfh foar. Sokke foarmen > binne yn it Stedsk (wij doene, wij gane, wy siene esfh) ek foar. > Dialekten dy't "ik gon" sizze, hewwe ek "wy gonne" esfh. Aha!!! :) Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 4 19:57:57 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 11:57:57 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.04 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAR.2004 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Floor en Lyanne van Lamoen Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.04 (03) [A/E] Dear Reinhard, > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Morphology > W. FRISIAN: > dwaan* | gean | sjen | stean > ik doch | gean (!) | ik sjoch | stiest > do dochst | giest | sjochst | stiest > hy docht | giet | sjocht | stiet > wy dogge | geane (!) | sjogge | steane (!) > > *("broken" form, probably from */duaa-n/ < Old Frisian _dua(a)-n_) For "stean" the 1st sg. should be "ik stean". For the record: there are not many verbs in Frysk of which the infinitive ends with an n. The only ones I quickly foung apart from the above (and similar to them, such as "bestean") are "jaan" - to give: ik jou, do joust, hy/er jout, wy jouwe) "slaan" - to hit: ik slaan(!)/slach, do slachst, hy/er slacht, wy slaan/slane(!)/slagge) Kind regards, Floor van Lamoen. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 4 20:42:27 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 12:42:27 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (07) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAR.2004 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze??uws) ======================================================================= From: Hugo Zweep Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.04 (04) [E] How about "wishy washy" meaning feeble or poor in constitution and described in the OED? Hugo Zweep ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Moyen, Hugo! > How about "wishy washy" meaning feeble or poor in constitution and > described in the OED? Yeah, but that's are or obsolete usage of the word. I believe the original meaning was something like "insipid," "bland" "diluted" or "sloppy." In North Saxon, _labberig_, _pl??rig_ and _pl????rksig_ describe pretty much that idea, especially with regard to drink. (Don't you have similar words in your dialect?) So it's "weak" in *that* sense. The way I hear "wishy-washy" used nowadays sounds a bit more like "weak" in the sense of opinion or attitude, thus something like "ambiguous," "irresolute" or "vacillating," or, as some would put it, "spineless." In a word, I think it doesn't fit the meaning of _vysevaze_ in the Middle Saxon verse Kenneth presented: Grymbart sprack vort: ??nu klaget de haze Eyn mereken vnde eyne vysevaze. I suggested: Middle English: Grimbeard spake forth "now lamenteth the Hare A Fayned Fable and a Twittle-Twattle-Thynge. Modern English: Grimbeard continued, "Now the hare complained, 'A fairy-tale and a bunch of hooey!' Modern Lowlands Saxon (Low German, North Saxon): Grimbaard seed' wyder: ??Nu klaagt dey haas': Eyn meerken un eyn dwatschen snak. German-based spelling: Grimmbort s?? wieder: ??Nu klaagt de Haas: Eyn M??rken un eyn dwatschen Snack. _Snak_ () is 'talk', 'chat' (both noun and verb) in the more easterly North Saxon dialects (probably corresponding to _proat_, _praot_, etc. farther west), and from there made its way into Scandinavian. (I believe that's the direction it took. Or did it come *from* Scandinavian?) LS _snak_ can also denote 'gossip' (e.g., _Dat is man bloots so 'n snak mang de l??yd'_ 'It's just some gossip making its rounds'). Incidentally, this (either from LS or "Dutch") appears to be the origin of English "snack," originally '(to) bite', '(to) gasp' > '(to) chatter'. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (01) [E] > From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.03 (05) [E] > > My Modern Danish dictionary says that Low Saxon 'kiel' means the same as > wyk (Danish 'vig', Dutch 'wijk'), and the is also the meaning used in > the city name Kiel - originally 'tome Kiel' which in Danish would be 'i > kilen' or 'i vigen' judging from my dictionary I remember the word Kiel was discussed in this list several years ago when an American subscriber asked for advice, since the people from the area he lived (somewhere in the state of New-York, I though it was) wanted to change a place name, because of the ugly word "kill" it contained. 1. South of Antwerp, between Antwerp and Hoboken, there was (till the French revolution) the seigniory of Kiel (1246 "vetera bona de Kyle" etc.). Momentarely "Kiel" is a suburb of Antwerp, South of the Ring, sqeezed between the ring Hoboken and Beerschot. Lords of the Kiel, before the revolution: 1246-1381: Family 'Nose" 1410-1540: The clergy order of the "Karthuizers" 1540-1796: A drossaard assigned by the town of Antwerp. The "drossaard van het Kiel". At least one history of Kiel has been written: Floris Prins, Geschiedenis van het Kiel Prims gives "river bend" as etymology for "the Kiel". 2. The father of the famous author of polyglottal dictionaries Corneel Kiliaan, was born in Kiel, hence the name Kiliaan, also written Kiel and Kilianus. Corneel was Born in Duffel (known from the Duffel-coat; Duffel is about 10 miles to the South East of the Kiel) in the winter of 1528-1529 and died in Antwerp on April 15 1607.He studied Latin, Greec and Hebrew at the Collegium Trilingue of Leuven University. For his biography, he got 10 cols. in the "Nationaal Biografisch Woordenboek", vol VI, 1974, Brussel, Paleis der Academi??n, col 507-516. 3. Kyll is also the name of a river in the Eifel-Mosel area: - starts with the river Our (South-East of Sankt Vith in Belgium) - continues with the Kronenburger See - continues through the Eifler Queldreieck (town: Stadtkyll) - continues through the Gerolsteiner Land (cf. place Rockerkyll) - through the Kyllburger Waldeifel (places: Kyllburgweiler, Kyllburg) - through the Bitburg - Speicher area - joins the Mosel just North of Trier 4. The WNT (in Dutch) has 9 lemmas for "Kiel", I pasted them all in attachment. I also added the lemma for "Kielspit", since I think it may be relevant Regards, Roger KIEL (I), znw. m. Mnl. kidel (naast kedel), verg. mhd. kitel, kittel, kietel (nhd. kittel). Opmerkelijke vorm naast gelijkbet. (kedel) keel (mnl. kedel): zie KEEL (I). Van onbekenden oorsprong. 1) Los overkleed, van linnen of katoen, voor mannen en jongens. a) Als dracht van arbeiders en werklieden, sjouwers, voerlieden, veekoopers enz. || Hebt gy gheenen Fluwelen of bonten Rock, laet het syn een grove kiel, SPRANKHUISEN 1, 61 b. Alle tamboers en pypers montering sullen ... uyt de guarnisoens kamer verstrekt werden. ... Gebruykende voor 't overige hare linnen kielen, N.-I. Plakaatb. 6, 640 (a??. 1754). Zulk een Bovenjak (in de 17de eeuw) was niets anders, dan eene soort van een ruim, grof, zwart of bruin Linnen Kieltje; 't welk de Arbeiders over hunne Hemdrokken, en andere kleederen droegen: even als de Boerenlieden, en meestal de Schippersgasten en Smids, nog zulke Jakken of halve Kielen draagen, BERKHEY, N. H. 3, 570. Al de Franschen, die men ... in zag komen waren naakt, geen broek aan hun gat, barrevoets, sommigen een brok kiel of een brok deken om hun bast, Leiden i. d. Fr. Tijd 7. Hij had de mouwen van zijnen kiel opgestroopt en werkte en zwoegde met zichtbare haast en lust, CONSC. 4, 177 b. Een kiel, een paar beslagen holsblokken; en hij was voor twee jaren van top tot teen in de kleeren (t. w. de slaaf bij de Romeinen), BEETS, Sparsa 85. Een kerel (een voerman) ... met een schoone blauwe kiel aan, BEETS, C. O. 336. Een besteller in een witten kiel, TEN BRINK, Rom. 4, 4. Met den ... natten kiel op 't lijf geplakt, den rug gekromd onder het neerstortend water, ... met ????ne hand de pet in den wind op het hoofd houdend, LOVELING, D. E. 105. In een blauw geruiten kiel Draaide hij (Michiel de Ruiter) aan 't groote wiel Den ganschen dag, DE ROP, in Ned. Volksliederenb. 40. Vleeschhouwerijen ..., de baas en zijn hakkende knechten in ... witte kielen en slooven met leergordels en messen in scheeden, BRUSSE, Boefje 74. Klomp?? (reed) ... weg ... in zijn blauwen grauwgesleten kiel zoo hij van 't werk kwam, DE MAN, Rijsh. 41. Vader Gijsbert kwam ook, in een nieuwen kiel, 259. ??? Halve kiel. Zie de aanhaling uit BERKHEY. b) Als jongensdracht. || Zijn strepen broeksken en zijn kieltje werden hem aangedaan, CONSC. 1, 51 b. De Hollandsche jongen draagt zijn das liefst als een touwtje ...; een blauw of schotschbont kieltje over zijn buis, BEETS, C. O. 2. Mijne krachten (van een schooljongen) hebben zich ontwikkeld, de broeken worden te kort, de mouwen te eng, de kielen zijn reeds tweemaal uitgelaten, BERGMANN, Staas 19. Zijn rood dasje ..., zijn uitstaand kieltje (van een knaapje op zijn Zondagsch), J??. DE VRIES, Zonnebl. 167. Al die jongens waren ... in heeren-kle??ren, lange broeken, jasjes, overhempjes. ... Willem liep er alleen tusschen met zijn kiel en zijn korte-broek, V. DEYSSEL, Verz. Opst. 4, 7. 't Was ... in zijn versch gewasschen blauwen kiel, voor z'n jaren wel een kloeke, vierkante jongen, BRUSSE, Boefje 10. Onder de mouw was de jongen z'n kiel gescheurd, HARTOG, Sjofelen 272. De kiel, die de jongen, los, zonder band om het lijf hing als een kort jakje, 276. c) Als boerendracht in Vlaamsch-Belgi??: de bekende blauwe, Brabantsche kiel. || De strik van eenen veelkleurigen halsdoek daalde zwierig tot op de borst van zijnen fijnen blauwen kiel, CONSC. 1, 63 b. (Jonge boeren) die, gedost in Brabantsche kielen ..., overendweder Jagen en jakken, op hun forsche en zwaar-trapplende paerden, V. BEERS 2, 83. Hij zette de muts weer op de borstelige haren, knoopte de linten van zijn blauwen kiel toe, STIJNS, In de Ton 61. 's Zondags in de kerk droeg hij den blauwen kiel, van de keurigste stof en het schoonste fatsoen, sierlijk gestreken, aan den halsband met de kostelijkste zijde gestikt, en met zwierige linten sluitend, SEGERS, Kemp. Wer. 66. Smouts had zijnen langen blauwen kiel over zijnen geribden veloeren frak geslagen, 166. De rijkere landbouwers ... met den glimmenden, blauwen kiel, versch gestreken, onder de kin losgestrikt, om het hagelwit hemd te laten zien, WATTEZ, Koningsk. 17. ??? Deze Brabantsche blauwe kiel was, tijdens den opstand der Belgen in 1830???1831, de uniformdracht der Belgische vrijkorpsen. Verg. kiel(e)man (straks hieronder, bij de samenst.) en blauwkiel (zie ald.). || Weg met dat kleed, ... Des oproers kiel en Brabants dracht, V. LENNEP, Po??t. 8, 300 (zie ook 9, 51; 9, 67). Zooveel ... Als A??. 30 de Belgen in kielen, Schoolm. 213. De blauwe kiel van '30 en '31 (praalde) ... met de grijze politiemuts, den 1 Juni 1885, op de lijkkist van Charles Rogier, BEETS, Na vijftig J. 17. Een haren muts ... waaruit een roodlaken, puntvormig zakje nederhangt; een blauwlinnen kiel. langs kraag en halsboord afgezet met roode lintjes; een overgroot geweer enz., POL DE MONT, Hendr. Conscience 1 (uitrusting van een Belgisch vrijwilliger in 1830). d) Als reiskleed voor heeren, in 't eerste gedeelte van de 19de eeuw. || De blauwe kiel, die mij (een voetreiziger) voor regen schut, V. LENNEP, Po??t. 5, 144. Hoe vuil onze Brabantsche kielen, na eene reize van ettelijke weken, ook mochten geworden zijn ..., het was ons niet gelukt voor reizende kooplui of gelukzoekers door te gaan, BEETS, C. O. 335. 2) Als dracht van vrouwen. || Ik (een herderin) draag een linne kieltje: ... daar mee ben ik wel vernoegt, J. V. GYZEN, Verm. Haarlemmer Hout 42. Afl. Gekield (met samenst. als blauw-, witgekield): zie GEKIELD (I). Samenst. en koppel. (als eerste lid). Kielgoed (TEIRLINCK, Z. Oostvl. Idiot. 2, 132 a) en kielengoed, goed, stof voor kielen; -jurk, kielvormige kinderof meisjesjurk; -maken, -makere, -makerije (TEIRLINCK, t. a. pl.); -male, zak van een kiel (TEIRLINCK, t. a. pl.); kielman, kieleman: 1??. met een kiel gekleed man, b. v. een voerman (???De huifkarren hadden plaats gemaakt voor rijtuigen op veeren. De kieleman met zijn ... zweep, het paard met zijn rinkelend ... tuig ... was verdwenen???, VITRINGA (JAN HOLLAND), Doris en Doortje 297); 2??. soldaat van de Belgische vrijscharen (Belgisch vrijwilliger) in 1830; 3??. bijnaam voor de Belgische opstandelingen (V. DALE); kielstoffe, kielengoed (TEIRLINCK), -zak, kielmale (ald.). ??? Als tweede lid. Arbeiders-, boeren-, jongens- (Dl. VII, kol. 379), letterzetters- (V. LOOY, Jaap 247), matrozen-, schilders-, slagers-, ververs-, voermans-, werkmanskiel (QUERIDO, Jord. 310). ??? Flodder- (???Een boer ... met een dikke knuppel, in een flodderkiel???, V. LOOY, Jaapje 163); mors- (Dl. IX, kol. 1152); over- (???Met zijn langen, witten overkiel aan, en zijn versleten stroohoed op???, SEGERS, Kemp. Wer. 66); slob-, morskiel (Heiloo); werkkiel. ??? In possesieve samenstellingen. Blauwkiel (ald. en daarbij ???de blauwkielen??? , V. LENNEP 9, 60); witkiel, stationssjouwer, stationsbesteller. KIEL (II), znw. m., wig, wigvormig voorwerp, wigvormige zaak. Nnd. k??l (DOORNK.-KOOLM.); friesch kyl. Gelijkbet. met keg en keil (nhd. keil, mhd. k??l), maar verwantschap met deze woorden is onzeker. Verg. KIEL (III), greppel. 1) Wig om hout te splijten, te klieven, te klooven, of om een kloof mede open te houden; (ijzeren) beitel, kliefbeitel. Verg. kyle of beytel, Teuthon. 142 a (en: beytel, kijle, pegge. Cuneus, a. w. 25 b). || Kiel. Sax. Sicamb. Fris. j. beytel. Cuneus, KIL. (verg. ald. beytel, klief-beytel, Cuneus). Kiel, wig, kig, beitel (Noord-Limb.), SCHUERM., Bijv. ??? Eenen kiel in het hout slaan, WEIL. Timmerman sluig n kiel in 't holt, TER LAAN 407 a. ??? Hy sagh eenen boom daer kielen of weggen in waren, die hy voorder meende te klieven: doch alsoo de kielen daer uyt vielen, worde hy van den boom soo benepen, dat hy met beide handen daer in blyven moste, PERS, in VONDEL, Gulden W. 60 b (ed. 1622). 2) Geer (schuine, wigvormige strook) in een kleedingstuk (TER LAAN 407 a). Verg. de afl. kielen. Afl. Kielen, ww. ??? 1??. Onz. Geeren (???Dit stok laand kielt???, TER LAAN 407 a). 2??. Van een kiel voorzien worden (???'t H??lt moet kield worn,??? (t. a. pl.). ??? In de samenst. Inkielen (naar nhd. einkeilen), met de afl. inkieling (nhd. einkeilung). || Inplanting, inkieling ... (van) de tanden in het kakenbeen, CUPERUS, Turnvakt. 28. ??? Kielsch, schuin toeloopend (TER LAAN). Samenst. Kielbeen (verg. nhd. keilbein), het wiggebeen in den schedel; -bles, wigvormige bles voor den kop van een paard (MOLEMA, TER LAAN); kielsgewijs (gron. -gewies: ???'t H??lt moet kielsgewies aanzett w??rn??? TER LAAN), kielhouweel (???Kielhouweelen, Kielhauen, Spitzhauen???, NEMNICH, Holl. Waaren-Lexicon), -houwer (verg. nhd. keilhaue, keilhacke), kielhouweel (MANSVELT), -stuk (voor nhd. keilst??ck), opsluitingswig (KUYPER, Technol. 1, 110). Met deze beteekenis vermoedelijk ook in Kielhoutje. Aan een viool enz. Opstaand randje, ruggetje aan 't begin van de toets, waarover de snaren naar de spanschroeven loopen. KIEL (III), znw. m. Greppel; bepaaldelijk: ondiepe wigvormige greppel (verg. kielspit, de bet. 1); derhalve 't zelfde woord(?) als KIEL (II), wig (zie ald.). 1) Grip, greppel in 't algemeen. || De rietwortels worden in een' gegraven kiel of kip gelegd, ter diepte van eene palm en ter lengte van eene el of minder .... Indien de wortel eenigzins dor of schraal schijnt, zal men meer van eenen goeden uitslag verzekerd zijn, wanneer men twee of drie wortels in een' kiel of kip legt. Deze kielen of kippen (keepen) worden eene el van elkander gegraven, VERSCHOOR V. SLEEUWIJK, Over het Riet, in De Vriend v. d. Landm. 14 (1850), 559. 2) Het diepere deel van een greppel waarheen het water moet afloopen (BOEKENOOGEN 424). ??? Kiel of kieltje steken; kiel spitten, greppels steken, uitgreppelen. || We moeten weer ers kieltje steken, BOEKENOOGEN. ??? Betaeldt aen Taems Willemsen 10 st. voor kiel spieten, Ald. (Wormer, a??. 1663). 3) In technischen zin. Een langs een richtsnoer ingespitte, ingestoken, ????n steek breede en diepe, wigvormige gleuf of vore, welke bij het traceeren van aardwerken tot afbakening, tijdelijke uitbakening dient. Alleen in verbinding (koppeling) met spitten en steken: zie KIELSPITTEN (met KIELSPIT), KIELSTEKEN (met KIELSTEEK) en verg. KIELSPONDE. Afl. Kielen, kiel spitten, greppel steken, uitgreppelen (???Aen Taemsz Willemsz voor 11/2 dachwerck op 't lant te kiellen betaelt enz.???, bij BOEKENOOGEN 425 (Wormer, a??. 1662). Koppel. en samenst. Zie Kielspit, -spitten, -sponde, -sponning, -steek, -steken, -tuin, -zode. KIEL (IV), znw., thans vr.; in de oudste voorbeelden (EVERAERT) manl.; enkele malen (o. a. bij H. DE GROOT) onz. gebezigd. Niet ??? althans etymologisch niet ??? hetzelfde woord als mnl. kiel (os. kiol, ags. c??ol, ohd. chiol, onr. kj??ll), manl.: vaartuig, groot schip, dat na de 15de eeuw niet meer voorkomt (de vermelding van KILIAAN: kiele. vet. Sax. j. galeye, zal men als bewijs mogen verwaarloozen), maar een in 't Nederlandsch gelijkluidende vorm, met de beteekenis: scheeps bodembalk, scheepskiel, welke in de 16de eeuw voor 't eerst is neergeschreven en die etymologisch beantwoordt aan mnd. kil, kiel, kel (duitsch keel, kehl ??? enkele malen keil ??? in de 16de en 17de eeuw), nnd. k??l, k??l (nhd. kiel, kehl), eng. keel (verg. ook ags. cele, scheepssneb?), onr. kjolr (zw. k??l, deensch kj??l). Voor het Duitsch schijnt men een verwarring en verwisseling van de twee woorden kiel, schip, en: scheepskiel, beide manlijk, te moeten of te mogen aannemen (KLUGE; PAUL; WEIGAND-HIRT; FALK-TORP); aan invloed van deze verwisseling schrijft men ook de opkomst van de jongere beteekenis van kiel in 't Nederlandsch toe (verg. FRANCK-V. WIJK 305 b). I) Eigenlijk. Een deel van het schip. A) Afzonderlijk of op zich zelf beschouwd, t. w. als een (en wel het voornaamste, fundamenteele) van de constructieve deelen van het schip. 1) Eigenlijk, bij houten schepen. Het onderste langsscheepsche hout in een schip, de grondslag van het scheepsgeraamte; buiten 't schip gedeeltelijk ??? overlangs, middenonder het vlak ??? als een rib of rug uitstekende. || De Kiel, het Fondament en Beginsel van 't Schip, is een lang Hout, dat somtijds wel uit 2, 3, a 4 Stucken in de Langte, na Reden van Schips grootheid door lange Lassen is t'samen gezet: en met een Deel binnen, en twee Deelen buitenwaarts, in 't ondertste van 't Schip geplaatst werd: deelende het zelve aldaar, van vooren tot agteren, in twee gelyke Deelen, V. YK, Scheepsb. 54. ??? Kiel des schips. La carine ou fond de la navire, PLANT. ??? Teerste es den kiele Van den scepe als princepael fondament. Want al dat den scepe es omtrent Neimpt vasticheydt anden kiel als princepael stye, EVERAERT 330 (a??. 1530). Anden kiel moeten zyn twee steven, Ald. Anden kiel ligghen de zandtstreken, 331. Als men de Kiel zal maecken, zoo neemt men enz., WITSEN, Scheepsb. 149 a. De Kiel moet ter weder zyden, op de dikte vande Voor, en Agtersteven toegehakt werden, V. YK, Scheepsb. 54. Ter weder sijden werd de Kiel met een Keep, Sponde genaemt, driehoekig ingehakt, Ald. 16 Voeten Holheid, uit de Kiel, 70. De ... Wrangen of Leggers op de Kiel, 69. 't Lasch van Kiel en Steven, 76. Geen balken van buitengewone grootte, als voor raamhouten, kielen of masthouhouten, (mogen) van de kapplaatsen vervoerd worden, voordat men enz., N.-I. Plakaatb. 15, 136 (a??. 1808). De stukken Hout voor de tezamenstelling van eene Kiel, RIJK, Handb. Scheepsb. 14. Tegen den onderkant van de Kiel heeft men de Looze Kiel, 18. De uiteinden van de kiel (zijn) geneigd om te zakken en aan haar eenen zoogenaamden kattenrug te veroorzaken, MOSSEL, Het Schip 49. Het raam van kiel en stevens, met de slemphouten enz., die gezamende langscheepsche gedaante daarstellen, ... de spanten of inhouten, die, dwars over den kiel heenstaande, de dwarsscheepsche gedaante van het schip bepalen, 145. De eigenlijke kiel .... Onder tegen dezelve ligt de buitenkiel en daaronder de looze kiel, 163. ??? De kiel leggen (Dl. VIII, kol. 1425) of toeleggen, stapelen, het eerste begin maken met den bouw van het schip. 1??. Eigenlijk. || Die kiel toeleggen, opsetten, staapelen, AUBIN, Dict. de Mar. 191. ??? Aldus de Kiel bereid sijnde, is sy bequaam om plaats, op de Stapelblocken, en Stootwiggen, te nemen, V. YK, Scheepsb. 55. De Kiel op stapels geleid, en Stevens daar opgerigt hebbende, 67. Boven op de stapelblokken wordt de kiel K gelegd, en voorts het schip afgebouwd, MOSSEL, Het Schip 143. 2??. Figuurlijk of bij vergelijking. Een begin met iets maken; den grond van iets leggen. || Dan willen wij ... een glaasje drinken op den goeden afloop van het scheepje, waar wij van avond de kiel van leggen, V. LIMB. BROUWER 1, 18 b. ??? Looze kiel, zie Dl. VIII, kol. 2906. ??? Vaste kiel, de eigenlijke scheepskiel; alleen bij tegenstelling met de looze kiel. || De ... duiker ... bevondt dat alleen de looze kiel, en de voering van den vasten kiel was afgestooten, BRANDT, De Ruiter 135. ??? Band of lap (Dl. VIII, kol. 1088) op de kiel, binnenkiel, tegenkiel, zaadhout. || Kolsem, Kolswijn, Saad-hout, Tegen-kiel, Bandt op de kiel, AUBIN, Dict. de Mar. 175 (Carlingue). De binnenkiel, ook wel lap op de kiel genaamd, TIDEMAN, Woordenb. v. Scheepsb. 162. ??? Kiel van Lang; Lang's kiel, omstreeks 1840 in gebruik gekomen (MODERA). || De kiel, naar het systema van den Engelschen Ingenieur O. Lang, uit twee deelen in de dikte gemaakt, namelijk eene binnen- en eene buitenkiel, en dan nog eene looze kiel, MOSSEL, Het Schip 148. Verg. verder (beneden) de samenst. binnen-, boven-, buiten-, onder-, tegenkiel. 2) Overdrachtelijk. Balkhout voor een kiel, om kielen van te maken. || Bij de Ned. Marine b. v. werden vanouds met den naam van balken aangeduid de eiken kielen, die in lengten van 12 tot 14 M. en in zwaarten van 24 bij 30 tot 40 bij 50 cM. worden aanbesteed enz., V. D. KLOES, Bouwm. 4, 170. 3) Bij de hedendaagsche ijzeren en stalen schepen, oneigenlijk. De naam voor het samenstel van ijzeren (stalen) platen, dat de kiel (in de bet. 1) als grondslag van het schip vervangt: plaatkiel (eng. plate keel); platte kiel, horizontale kielplaat (OOSTHOEK, Ge??ll. Encyclop. 7, 349 b). ??? Vertikale kiel, de vertikale plaat, ter versterking op de platte kiel aangebracht (OOSTHOEK, Ge??ll. Encyclop. 7, 349 b). B) Beschouwd, gedacht of genoemd als deel (het onderste, laagste) van ???, als ????n met een volbouwd schip, een schip in de vaart. || Dat ... voortaen hem nyemant en sal vervorderen met eenige scepen ter zee te vaeren die minder zullen wesen dan 16 voeten kyels, in Versl. Vereen. O. Vad. Recht 5, 379 (a??. 1527). Dat alzulke sceepen daer zy mede vaeren willen, zullen hebben ten minsten zestien roedevoeten kyels, 5, 381 (a??. 1531). Dat onse voorseyde ondersaeten hem ... zauden vervoordert hebben ... ter Zee te varen ... met diversche schepen groot ende cleene: qualicken bewaert van kiele: oude, versleten ende lack, Vl. Placcaertb. 1, 360 (a??. 1549). Het Jacht beviel op de klippen, also dat het water hem gheheel ontliep, en datmen met het laeghste water droogh-voets onder de kiel neffens de groote mast mocht doorloopen: de kiel stont meer als een vadem uyt het water, O. e. W.-I. Spiegh. 155. Het schip ende koopmans goed (is) den schipper ende sijne schip-ghezellen verbonden voor de vracht, ende werd verstaen het schip overig te wezen zoo langh het kiel is in wezen, DE GROOT, Inl. II, 48, ?? 19. Alzo de vaartuigen onder, en in 't midden, vlak, en met een effen kiel, zyn, bij VALENTIJN, O.-I. I, 2, 67 a. Indien men zelf een Schip tot de Vleet koopt, laat men 't vervolgens wel verdubbelen, en zulks tot aan de achtersteven toe, als ook onder 't Vlak tot aan de Kiel, ZORGDRAGER, Groenl. Vissch. 330. Verbrijzeld werd alles, en van kiel en van mast Keerde niets, dan wat spaanderen weer, LULOFS, Ged. 109. Op de omgekeerde kiel eener boot lagen matrozen te slapen, BUSKEN HUET, Rub. 210. Iets donkers als 'n groote torpedo, kwam nader (t. w. een haai), verdween weer onder de kiel van het oorlogsschip, verscheen toen weer, PIM PERNEL, Zilte Verh. 57. ??? Kiel-uit. || De grootste helling, die men (bij 't kielen van een schip) noodig kan hebben, is de kiel boven water, men noemt dit kiel-uit, TIDEMAN, Woordenb. v. Scheepsb. 166. ??? Iemand onder de kiel (door) ??? ook onde door de kiel ??? halen of trekken, bij wijze van straf: hem kielhalen; onder de kiel door moeten, gekielhaald moeten worden. || Die zyn provande ofte een anders provande over bort worpe jegens zynen wille dien sal men onder den kiele deurtrecken, bij DE JONGE, Zeew. 1, 735 (a??. 1521?) Op peyne van driemael onder den kiele deurgetoghen te worden, Ald. Op pene van driemael onder de Kiel getrocken te worden, Gr. Placaatb. 2, 194 (a??. 1636). Laet sulcks niet meer geschien, Of ick sweer u by mijn eere, Ghy sult onder al door de Kiel, bij SCHEURLEER, Van varen en vechten 3, 119. Men loopt hem (den straffeling) ..., eerst langzaam, om hem onder de kiel door te halen, en naderhand, wanneer men berekenen kan dat hij er onder henen is, gezwind naar boven, C. DE JONG, Derde reize n. d. Middell. Zee 1, 78. ??? Bodem en kiel, top en kiel, enz. || Die duerck droech ende die kiel nat, De kaert vander zee (a??. 1532), 2. (Een schip) wel voorzien, ghestoffeert ende toe-gherust, ... vast ende ghetrauwe van bodeme ende kiele, Vl. Placcaertb. 1, 363 (a??. 1549). Dat Top ende Kijl duer zijn ghena, Ende door zijn goetheyt gheen quaet en besta, Leeskaartb. v. Wisbuy (a??. 1566) 178. ??? Mast en kiel, in de spreekw. Zooveel als of (Al) wat mast en kiel houden of lijden kan (mag): Dl. IX, kol. 288. || Zoo veel als mast en kiel lijden kan, autant qu'il est possible, HALMA. ??? Bodemerij op de kiel van 't schip; op de kiel scheeps, bodemerij (Dl. III, kol. 44), geldleening onder verband van 's scheeps kiel; enz. || Waer door sy hen dickwils ontgaen hebben in 't stuck van de Bodemerye of op de KielScheeps iet t'ontfangen ofte koopen, Handv. v. Amst. 541 a (a??. 1527). Dat voortaen geen Schip-Heer aen dese sijde der Zee iet sal mogen kopen oft ontfangen op de Kiel van den Schepe, ende alsoo Bodemerye plegen, dan enz., 541 b (a??. 1527). De zommighe van dien hem betrauwende op de goede aventure van winde ende wedere. ... Eenighe andere op de bomerie ofte wissel, op den kiele ofte baete van den schepe, takelijnghe ende toerustijnghe van dien: bedraghende also vele ofte meer, dan tvoorseyde schip ... weert was, Vl. Placcaertb. 1, 361 (a??. 1549). Gheldt op schips bodem (dat men ghemeenelicken bomerie ofte wissel opt hol ofte kiele van den Schepen namende es), 1, 368 (a??. 1549). Een yeghelick die sal willen asseureren het kiel ofte hol van zynen Schepe ... de zelve sal ghehouden syn t'selve ... te doen estimeren, by lieden hemlieden dies verstaende, 2, 331 (a??. 1563). Verg. DE GROOT, Inl. III, 20, ?? 47, aangehaald Dl. III, kol. 45. II) Overdrachtelijk. Het deel voor 't geheel genomen: Een vaartuig; een schip. 1) In overgangsgevallen, waar men in twijfel is of niet metterdaad de eigenlijke beteekenis wordt bedoeld. || 'k Vloeck ... de kiel Die twee Fredericken deylde, Soon en vader overseylde, VONDEL 2, 766 (Over 't verongelucken van den Ionghen Keurvorst). De nutte Zeebouw is 't, die rykelyck all' 't geen, Dat ieder eigen heeft, aen allen maeckt gemeen; De kiel is 't, die den ploeg en landbouw doet beklyven, En hem zyn zweet vergoed met macht van goude schyven, DE DECKER 1, 114. Zoo klieve kiel bij kiel de baren, NIEUWLAND, Nag. Ged. 56. 2) Met algeheele overdracht; vaak zeker in dichterlijke navolging van lat. carina ??? bij de classieke po??eten ??? voor 't geheele schip, maar ook onafhankelijk daarvan en als technische term in scheeps- en zeemanstaal. Verg. de overdr. toepassing van bodem (Dl. III, kol. 38), steven, en zeil (zie die woorden). || Tot dat ick hem in deez' Stadt Op snelle kielen bracht, COSTER 568. Sy die op zee met kielen, Ter sneller vaert gebouwt, Sich geven, CAMPHUYZEN, Ps. 107, 12. Sesostris, ... Die door 't Arabisch meir een vlote kielen sleept, VONDEL 1, 134. t'Oneyndelyck ghetal van dees gevlerckte Kielen, 1, 136. Ten steeckt den Grajen niet op tien of twalef kielen, 2, 421. Men klaeght, indien de kiele strand, Maer niet, wanneerse, rijck gela??n ..., In een behoude haven land, 3, 182. De Koopman ... kalfatert zijne lecke kiel, 6, 392. Haaren Vorst te waater in zijn kielen, te lande op zijnen klepper ... gevolght te hebben, G. BRANDT, in HOOFT, Br. 4, 451. Dat vier ... stak den kiel van Wassenaar in brandt, G. BRANDT, Po??zy 2, 37. Het bootsvolk ... klom op het boort der kielen, DROSTE, Overbl. 30. Haare magtige vlooten, en zoo rykgeladene kielen, VALENTIJN, O.-I. I, 1, 298 b. Dat ... niemand ... aan boord van eenige Comps schepen ..., met speceryen geladen, ... mag komen of met een vaartuyg aan of agter zoo een kiel gaan leggen, dan na dat ze ... gevisiteerd zullen zyn, N.-I. Plakaatb. 8, 119 (a??. 1766). Die 't eerst zijn kiel den golven wagen, Zich-zelv' der kiel betrouwen dorst, BILD. 8, 180. Uw ranke kiel, 13, 32. Tharsis voert met rijke kielen, Geschenken naar zijn hof, Psalmber. 72, 5. Daar komt de kiel, met goud bela??n, Ze brengt ons d'eersten haring aan, SPANDAW 4, 134. Honderde kielen liggen daar ten anker, POTGIETER 3, 58. Duizend kielen Verheffen in het dok haar statig mastgeboomt! LEDEGANCK 23. Handel schijnt te bloeien; schepen varen ... naar en van alle havens; er is gekrioel van kielen en wielen, QUACK, Soc. 4, 53. De Witte Zee ... zag thans meer Engelsche kielen dan Hollandsche matrozen, DE BEAUFORT, Geschiedk. Opst. 2, 9. ??? Kielen, Wielen, Rand om 't Land! Tafeldronk op 't welzijn van Zeevaart, Akkerbouw en Dijkwezen (V. LENNEP, Zeem.-Wdb. 101). || De Kielen en de Wielen en de Rand van 't Land. Vaderlandsche Feestdronk, BEETS 42, 44 (titel). III) Bij vergelijking. ??? 1) In de plantenkunde; wetenschappel.-lat. carina. Benaming voor een deel van de bloemkroon der Vlinderbloemigen, t. w. voor de twee onderste kroonbladeren die in den vorm van een schuitje zijn samengegroeid: nhd. kiel, eng. keel, fra. car??ne en quille. || Carina; Kiel: dus word het benedenste kielformige of uitgeholde blad aan de vlinder-bloemen (flores papilionacei) genaamt, dat de helmstijltjes en 't stampertje bevat, CHOMEL, Verv. 348 b. Van deze blaadjes (t. w. die der vlindervormige bloemkroon) wordt het bovenste ... vlag, de twee zijdelingsche vleugels en de twee onderste te zamen kiel geheeten, omdat zij, langs een hunner randen aan elkander sluitend, eene soort van schuitje vormen, OUDEMANS, Flora2 1, 121. 2) Mogelijk berust ook kiel, kruis van de broek (Zaanstreek) op vergelijking van het bodemstuk van dit kleedingstuk met de kiel van een schip. (Wellicht heeft KILIAAN die beteekenis gekend, en heeft deze hem op de gedachte gebracht om (het met een Romaanschen uitgang van broek afgeleide) broeckilie (zie het art. BROEKILLE), elders in zijn Etymologicum, als een samenstelling uit broek en kiel voor te stellen; verg. zijn art.: kiele. Sax. Sicamb. Fris. j. broeckkiele). || Ik zel 'en nuwe kiel in je broek zetten, BOEKENOOGEN 423. Afl. Kielen (1ste art.), kieler, kielschip (???Een kieler, by alle Saxische stammen in gebruik, en welks naam ??? een van een kiel voorzien vaartuig beteekenend ??? vroeger ongetwijfeld een meer algemeene, thands slechts een soortelyke beteekenis heeft???, HOFDIJK, Voorgesl. 2, 243); gekield, zie Dl. IV, kol. 956 en de volgende plaats (???Schuytkens, boetkens off ander cleyne gekielde sceepkens om te visschen???, in Versl. Vereen. O. Vad. Recht 5, 381 (a??. 1531). Samenst. samenst. afl. en koppel. A) Als eerste lid. Kielboot, -gang, -halen, -jacht, -schip, -sponde en -sponning (2de art.), -vlak, -water, -zog (zie die woorden). En verder onder meer in In de bet. I, A, 1). ??? Kielbom, bom (4de art.) met een kiel. || Een geladen kielbom heeft ... 2,40 M. ... diepgang, in De Nieuwe Cour. v. 8 Dec. 1903. ??? Kielboog: ???Boog in den vorm van een scheepskiel???, ZWIERS, Bouwk. Wdb. 1, 622 b. ??? Kielgeld, zekere heffing. || Loots-, tonnen-, kiel-, anker-, dok- en havengelden, bij V. HOUTEN, Kooph. 310. ??? Kielhak: ???Uitstekend achtereind van de kiel, waarop het ondereind van 't roer steun vindt???, BLY, Zeilvischsl. 211. ??? Kielhout, bij TOLLENS voor: kiel. || Het zware zaagblad ..., ... bogtig loopt het op Van uit het kielhout heen tot naar den steventop, 6, 26 (Verov. v. Damiate). Het zaagblad, en het kielhout, en de steven, En heel de bodem (schiet) door de keten, 6, 37. ??? Kielklos. || Kiel-klots. Massif de cale. ??? Dead wood, TWENT, Zeem.-Wdb. ??? Kielkram, koperen kram, met platte uiteinden, waarin gaten (spijkergaten), dienende tot bevestiging van de looze kiel aan de kiel. || De looze Kiel (wordt) aan de Kiel bevestigd met koperen Kielkrammen, RIJK, Handl. Scheepsb. 18. ??? Kiellasch, liggende haaklasch tot verbinding van de kielstukken; Vlaamsche lasch. || Kiel-las. Flamant. ??? Keel scarf, TWENT, Zeem.-Wdb. ??? Hoe de Kiels-laszen gehouden werden, WITSEN, Scheepsb. 149 a. ??? Kiellinie. ??? 1??. De door de scheepskiel gevormde lijn. || Een schip buyten t'middelront en middachront so seylende, dat de booch getrocken vande kiellini totten aspunt (van de aarde), altijt op de kiellini een selven houck maeckt, S. STEVIN, Gedacht. 2, 88. 2??. Vlootformatie waarbij de kielen der schepen in ????n lijn liggen. || De in kiellinie liggende vaartuigen. Van divisie-kiellinie uitloopen in eskaderkiellinie. ??? Kielmossel, soort van weekdier: Carinaria (KUIPERS). ??? Kielplaat, plaatkiel. || Plaatkiel, ook wel ... horizontale Kielplaat genoemd, OOSTHOEK, Ge??ll. Encyclop. 7, 349 b. ??? Kielplank, bij de Blankenbergsche vischschuit. Een dikke plank overlangs in het midden onder het schip, van steven tot steven (BLY, Zeilvischsl.2 142; 211). || Voor- en Achtervis, ... zware houten knie??n, ... het lijf dient tot verlenging der kielplank, ... de tak tot steunpunt van voor- en achtersteven, BLY, a. w. 142. ??? Kielpootig, een kielvormige poot (voet) hebbende: van eene afdeeling der Buikpootigen (de slakken), t. w. de kiel- of vinvoetslakken (Heteropoda). Bij V. DALE. ??? Kielpunt. || De verhouding van het kielpunt tot het zeilpunt als verklaring hoe het komt dat een zeilvaartuig op enkele streken na tegen den wind in zeilt, PHILIPPONA, Zeilen 294. ??? Kielschieters, mv., spotnaam voor de Rotterdammers, omdat zij geschoten zouden hebben op een onderste-boven in de Maas drijvende schuit, die zij voor een walvisch aanzagen (SCHRIJNEN, Volksk. 2, 78). ??? Kielstrop. || Behalve de reeds genoemde bouten en spijkers, komt er nog een koperen strop, kielstrop geheeten, om de onderste stuik van de lasch, van welke strop de veeren eindigen onder de sponning, MOSSEL, Schip 149. ??? Kielstuk. ??? 1??. Zwaar stuk hout, geschikt om een deel van een kiel uit te zagen. ??? 2??. Een der samenstellende deelen van een kiel. || Een (Rijnschen Sommer) ... om tot een Kielstuk te dienen, lang 49, en dik 2 Voeten vierkant, kon men niet minder als voor 190 Guldens koopen, V. YK, Scheepsb. 37. Nadat de kielstukken gereed gemaakt en op de breedte en dikte bezaagd zijn, TIDEMAN, Wdb. v. Scheepsb. 163. ??? Kielverscherving, het onderling verspringen van de samenstellende deelen eener kiel (V. LENNEP, Zeem.-Wdb.). ??? Kielvoet, in de samenst. kielvoetslak, slak met kielvormigen voet; verg. hierboven Kielpootig. || De Kielvoetslakken (Heteropoda). ... Zeer eigenaardig is de vorm van den voet, die van voren den vorm heeft van eene vin enz., BURGERSDIJK, Dieren 3, 650. ??? Kielvoetig, kielpootig (zie ald.). || De Kielvoetigen (Heteropoda). ... Het voorste en middenste gedeelte van den voet is in eene bladvormige vin ... herschapen, WINKLER PRINS, Ge??ll. Encyclop.1 13, 186 (Slakken). ??? Kielvormig. || Carinatus. Kielformig, of uitgeholt, als de kiel of holte van een schip, CHOMEL, Verv. 348 b. In de bet. II, 2). ??? Kielkruisen, met zijn kiel kruisen. || Gelijck de Zee-man leit En kiel-kruyst voor den mond van hooger waller haven, HUYGENS 1, 495. ??? Kielmorselend, de schepen verbrijzelend. || Die met my, in buldrende onwe??rslagen, 't Kielmorslend nat bekruist, DE MARRE, Bespieg. 3. ??? Kielverdelgend. || Het Lenteblaezend West, Het kielverdelgend Noort en zijn verwoede buien, ANTONIDES 1, 14. ??? Als tweede lid. Kimkiel (zie ald.). Voorts: In de bet. I, A, 1). ??? Achterkiel: ???het agterste gedeelte van de Kiel, synde die balck, daer het Roer aangehangen werd???, WINSCHOOTEN, Seem. 7. ??? Ballastkiel. || Het aanbrengen van den ballast zoo laag mogelijk, heeft het grootste effect: vandaar dat een ballastkiel het beste is, PHILIPPONA, Zeilen 237. ??? Binnenkiel, tegenkiel (Dl. II, kol. 2720). ??? Bovenkiel (TIDEMAN, Woordenb. v. Scheepsb. 163; 164). ??? Buitenkiel (zie Dl. III, kol. 1815). ??? Dokkiel, bij ijzeren en stalen schepen). || Tegen beschadiging en tevens voor versterking wordt soms onder tegen de kielplaat een platte ijzeren staaf de z. g. dokkiel, verbonden, OOSTHOEK, Ge??ll. Encyclop. 7, 349 b. ??? Dropkiel, eng. drop-keel: ???a projecting keel, as distinquished from a plate-keel??? (N. E. D). || Dropkielen en waterkielen ..., waardoor de zeewaardigheid (van zekere reddingsbooten) wordt verhoogd en ... het beter loefhouden en gemakkelijke sturen wordt bevorderd, in N. Rott. Cour. v. 16 Apr. 1893, II B. ??? Onderkiel. || Van een flotille vaartuig, dat geen losse onderkiel had, was de kiel dik 0,28, breed 0,30 el, TIDEMAN, Wdb. van Scheepsb. 165. ??? Plaatkiel, eng. plate-keel, de platte, uit een horizontale kielplaat bestaande kiel der groote ijzeren (en stalen) schepen. ??? Scheepskiel (Dl. XIV, kol. 712). ??? Schipskiel (V. YK, Scheepsb. 17). ??? Tegenkiel. ??? Bij WINSCHOOTEN, Seem. 105 als synoniem van buitenkiel; bij AUBIN, Dict. de Mar. 175 gelijkbet. met binnenkiel (kolsem; zaadhout). ??? Waterkiel. Zie de aanhaling bij Dropkiel. In de bet. II, 2) Rooverkiel (Dl. XIII, kol. 1375); overkielen (Dl. XI, kol. 1784). KIEL (V) ??? KIL en KEEL ???, znw. vr. Gelijkbet. met nhd. kehle (dach-, einkehle). Term in de bouwkunde. De inspringende hoek die door twee hellende dakvlakken gevormd wordt. || Kiel. Noue. Kehle, Einkehle, PIJTAK. Kiel, keel, dakkeel, V. HOUCKE, Loodg. 373. Kieltje, ... kleine kiel, daar waar de zijwang van een staand dakvenster het dak raakt, 375. Kiel, of Kil. Waar twee hellende dakvlakken een inspringenden hoek met elkaar maken, krijgt men een kiel, ZWIERS, Bouwk. Wdb. 1, 622 b. ??? Bij aaneengeschakelde bomvrije lokalen had men vroeger de gewoonte, de kielen of inspringende hoeken, gevormd tusschen de aanraseringen, ter breedte van 30 ? 40 duim plat bij te metselen, onder een kleine afhelling naar de buitenzijde van het gebouw, ten einde zoodoende een goot te vormen, STORM V. 'S-GRAV., Bouwk. 1, 378. De kielen belegt men ... met lood, Ald. Bij killen worden de leien evenwijdig aan den kilkeper schuin afgesnoten en laat men het killood eenvoudig 7 tot 10 cM. onder de leien schieten, V. D. KLOES, Bouwm. 1, 245. Samenst. ??? Als eerste lid. Kielkeper (zie ald.). Verder in ??? Kielbedekking. || Soms soldeert men de verschillende deelen der kielbedekking, V. HOUCKE, Loodg. 374. ??? Kielberd, kielbord. ??? Kielbord. || Kielberd, kielbord ... De plank of de planken die de kiel vormen, V. HOUCKE, Loodg. 375. Kielbord, of kielkeperplank, ZWIERS, Bouwk. Wdb. 1, 622 b (zie aanstonds Kielgoot). ??? Kielgoot. || Kielbord, of kielkeperplank. Plank, welke ter weerszijden van een kielkeper ... over de gordingen der kap wordt gespijkerd, tot vorming van een kielgoot, ZWIERS, Bouwk. Wdb. 1, 622 b. In het volgende voorbeeld moet van de looden bedekking of bekleeding van zulk een goot sprake zijn. || Ontvreemd ... onder Spijkenisse ... 1 zware looden kielgoot, lang 5 en breed 1 Nederl. el, zwaar naar gissing 150. Nederl. ponden, Algem. Politiebl. 1856, bl. 34. ??? Kiellood (V. HOUCKE, Loodg. 375), killood (V. D. KLOES, Bouwmat. 1, 145), het lood tot het bedekken of bekleeden van kielen. ??? Kielpan, holle dakpan, welke in de kielgoot kan worden bevestigd, en waarin de behakte stukken der dakpannen langs de kiel komen te rusten (ZWIERS, Bouwk. Wdb. 1, 622 b); keel (5de art.). ??? Kielrib, rib welke soms in de lengte op de kielkeper wordt gespijkerd (ZWIERS, Bouwk. Wdb. 1, 623 a). ??? Als tweede lid. Binnenkeel (STAMMETZ-LA BORDUS, Wisk. Wdb. 414); dakkeel (Dl. III, kol. 2249). KIEL (VI), znw. (vr. ?), hetzelfde als KEEL (II), de bet. II, 9). Trechtervormig binnennet in een fuik; ink; inkel; inkeling. In de Zaanstreek. || In een fuik brengt men verscheidene kielen aan, om de visch naar de verschillende kamers ... der fuik te leiden, BOEKENOOGEN 424. KIEL (VII) ??? KIL ???, znw. vr. (ook manl.). Mnl. kiel. Zie ook bij KIL (I). 1) Eigenlijk. Diep, bocht, boezem, baai. || Kille, kiele. Statio, locus in littore sinuosus, sinus, KIL. (verg. ald.: kiel, kille. Statio, palus littorea, en: kille. j. diepte). ??? Wy roeyden met den eenen boot dicht bijt lant in een Kielleken, want het over al seer steenich is, O.-I. e. W.-I. Voyag. 10, 46 b. 2) In de uitdrukking mnl. die helsche kiel als omschrijvende benaming voor: de hel ??? verg. die helsche pit ??? (VERDAM 3, 1414) en vervolgens, oneigenlijk, in: 's werelds kiel, voor: de wereld, gelijkbet. met 's werelds plein. || By dien moet ghy wel kennen dan Dat hu Elckerlyc binnen sweerels kielen vliet, EVERAERT 290. 3) Hoe weinig men zich waarschijnlijk bij deze uitdrukkingen nog iets werkelijks voorstelde; hoe zij tot formules geworden waren; blijkt nader wel uit een verbinding als de kiel der hooger bergen. || De tweeste pissijne als een fonteyne staet Binnen Jherusalem, waer jn dat viel Tsemels water, maer duer den kiel Der hoogher berghen wiertse oock vervult, EVERAERT 372. KIEL (VII) ??? KIL ???, znw. vr. (ook manl.). Mnl. kiel. Zie ook bij KIL (I). 1) Eigenlijk. Diep, bocht, boezem, baai. || Kille, kiele. Statio, locus in littore sinuosus, sinus, KIL. (verg. ald.: kiel, kille. Statio, palus littorea, en: kille. j. diepte). ??? Wy roeyden met den eenen boot dicht bijt lant in een Kielleken, want het over al seer steenich is, O.-I. e. W.-I. Voyag. 10, 46 b. 2) In de uitdrukking mnl. die helsche kiel als omschrijvende benaming voor: de hel ??? verg. die helsche pit ??? (VERDAM 3, 1414) en vervolgens, oneigenlijk, in: 's werelds kiel, voor: de wereld, gelijkbet. met 's werelds plein. || By dien moet ghy wel kennen dan Dat hu Elckerlyc binnen sweerels kielen vliet, EVERAERT 290. 3) Hoe weinig men zich waarschijnlijk bij deze uitdrukkingen nog iets werkelijks voorstelde; hoe zij tot formules geworden waren; blijkt nader wel uit een verbinding als de kiel der hooger bergen. || De tweeste pissijne als een fonteyne staet Binnen Jherusalem, waer jn dat viel Tsemels water, maer duer den kiel Der hoogher berghen wiertse oock vervult, EVERAERT 372. KIEL (IX), bnw., met de bet.: Onverschillig; zorgeloos(?) || Cr. s'En is (t. w. sprekers vrouw) van de Sorgeloose niet, die daer geduerich sitten hucken Over hunnen Lolle pot. ... N. Foey wat dat ghy seght. ... Cr. Het is de waerheydt, ... Daer syn van die Sleur-beulingen, die Sleyplendens soo kiel, Al waert dat haer jets nootsaeckelijckx ontviel Die daerom niet 'en souwen van hun Stoelen op rysen, OGIER, Seven Hoofts. 283. KIELSPIT, znw. onz. Friesch kylspit. Wigvormig ingespitte aardgeul, grep, greppel, vore; hetzelfde als KIELSTEEK. Verg. KIELSPITTEN. Verg. voor de beteekenis ook kielsponde, kielsponning (zie die woorden; de eerste artikelen), alsmede fri. kylgreppel, kylgroppe, wigvormige ontwateringsgreppel in den berm terzijde van den weg. 1) In 't algemeen. || K??lspit, o. spitstoeloopend gat met de spade in den grond gemaakt; scheidsgrep in het land, GALL??E 20 b. 2) In technischen zin. Bij het af- of uitsteken (traceeren) van een aard-, een grondwerk, enz. Een langs een richtsnoer ingespitte, wigvormige, ????n steek breede gleuf of vore, tot afbakening, tijdelijke uitbakening, aangeving of bepaling van het uit te voeren werk. (Gelijkbet. nhd. keilspitz, term in den vestingbouw, moet naar 't Nederlandsche woord zijn gevormd). || Een Ingenieur ..., by hem ... hebbende 50 of 60 Pioniers, die de kielspitten steken langs gespannen lonten, te weten twee rechte linien 6 voeten van malkander voor breede des grachts, STEVIN, Legermeting 39. De voorschreven kielspitten alzoo ghesteken zijnde, daer rest rekening te maken hoe veel voeten grachts elc regiment zal uytgraven, 40. Alle d'aennemers van dese voorseijde bestedinge sullen gehouden zijn elck voor zijn werck aen 't kielspit, datter tegenwoordelijcken leijt, op te scieten ende te maecken eenen sloot boven wijt 8 voeten, 4 voeten diepe ende 4 voeten breet, in den bodem blijvende int hoochste ende leechste naer advenant, ende tvoorseijde kielspit sal blijven den uuytercant van de voorseijde sloot, bij VIERLINGH, Tract. v. Dyck. 125. Alvorens den aanleg van den dijk te beginnen, wordt de rigting en het profil naauwkeurig uitgebaakt en op het terrein de juiste grenzen van het binnen- en buitenbeloop met een kielspit aangewezen, STORM BUYSING, Waterb. 1, 362. Binnen deze kielspitten worden de zoden afgeroofd, Ald. Nadat men ... b. v. om de 10???12 M. een teeken aangebracht heeft, kan men voor een ???nette??? uitvoering van het werk dan nog tusschen deze in ... een kielspit ... maken, COOL, Leerb. d. Pionierk. 1, 20. 3) Bij verwisseling. De uit een gespitte groef, gleuf of vore opgespitte grond (tot waterkeering). Dan gelijkbet. met friesch kylseadden, wig vormige zoden, die dicht aaneengesloten op een rij op de kruin van een polderdijk worden gelegd, als het buitenwater tot die hoogte is opgestuwd (Friesch Wdb. 2, 53 a). || Een tijdlang (kan) het water met noodmiddelen (kielspitten, dammen van aarde enz.) ... worden gekeerd, Versl. Landb. 1917, 1, 36 (over den Frieschen boezem). Omdat men in tijden van hoogen boezemwaterstand de lage plaatsen tijdelijk vrij afdoende weet te verhoogen met kielspitten, uit de zode gestoken, 1, 42. Somtijds worden zelfs twee kielspitten (met een derde tot steun er achter) op elkaar gezet, Ald. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 4 23:56:12 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 15:56:12 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAR.2004 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (07) [D/E] > _Snak_ () is 'talk', 'chat' (both noun and verb) in the more easterly > North Saxon dialects (probably corresponding to _proat_, _praot_, etc. > farther west), and from there made its way into Scandinavian. (I believe > that's the direction it took. Or did it come *from* Scandinavian?) LS > _snak_ can also denote 'gossip' (e.g., _Dat is man bloots so 'n snak mang de > l?yd'_ 'It's just some gossip making its rounds'). My etymological dictionary says that "snak/snack" is Low Saxon and originally meant "vr?vl, v?s" ie. the same as "vysevaze". I also know that in the older generations "at snakke" is considered a bad form of conversation and they prefer the verb "at tale". Today they can be used almost in place of each other, but you still see that "tale" is of a higher prestige. I heard that 'tale' is barely used in Norwegian today. ex. "Tal p?nt!" ~ speak properly "Det kan der ikke v?re tale om" "Du m? ikke tale med munden fuld" "Peter taler som et vandfald" (idiom - so different) vs. "Peter snakker hele tiden" ~ Peter speaks the whole time "Folk snakker i krogene" ~ /People talk in the corners/ Snakker seems a bit more informal still...so it probably meant the same as "vyzevase" which apparently had the same meaning then as Danish "vissevasse" today. Cheers, Kenneth ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Hey, Kenneth, Lowlanders! > My etymological dictionary says that "snak/snack" is Low Saxon and > originally meant "vr?vl, v?s" ie. the same as "vysevaze". This is consistent with North Saxon _snak_ (noun) and _snakken_ (verb) in a negative sense. > I also know that in the older generations "at snakke" is considered a > bad form of conversation and they prefer the verb "at tale". Today they > can be used almost in place of each other, but you still see that "tale" > is of a higher prestige. I heard that 'tale' is barely used in Norwegian > today. I remember that, when I was in Denmark, people would use _tale_ in polite and formal situations and _snakke_ in casual talk. I also remember once being corrected (in a well-meaning way) by a middle-aged lady when I (a mere teen) once used _snakke_ in a conversation with her. (At that time, people found it very unusual for a foreigner to choose to learn Danish, and the nice ones among them really made a fuss and tried to help me.) Furthermore, I don't remember ever hearing _tale_ used in conversations while I was in Norway, only on the radio and TV (and in writing). It was always _snakke_ where I hung out (with a _shn..._ pronunciation, which I found rather "disturbing" as a North German having approached Norwegian via Danish). The Danish case is similar to that of Missingsch (German dialects on LS substrate): _sprechen_ and _reden_ are more formal, "better," for 'to talk', while _snacken_ or _schnacken_ is informal. The latter is also semantically very flexible in that it can denote 'to speak', 'to talk', 'to converse', 'to chat', 'to gossip', 'to babble', 'to mouth off', 'to tell off', etc. It depends on the context and tone. The Norwegian case is similar to that of North Saxon dialects. _Snakken_ () is *the* word, and _spreken_ or _reden_ are highly unusual and super-formal. They sound _geel_ ("yellow"), i.e., "High"-German(-influenced). (Cf. German _sprechen_ and _reden_) Incidentally, a derivation from _snakken_ and _snak_ is _snakvat_ ( "babble barrel," "yak vat," etc.), denoting either a talkative person or a person who likes to talk behind people's backs. _Spreken_ and _reden_ are more common, if not normal, in the eastern dialects, also in the Eastphalian ones, I believe. In the far northwest (including Eastern Friesland and in the northern part of the Saxon-speaking region of the Netherlands) it is _praten_ (and variations thereof). In the southwestern dialects (Westphalia, Munster Region, and Twente, I believe) it is _k?yren_ (, , etc.). Might this _k?yren_ 'to chat' (> 'to talk', 'to speak') be related to Dutch _kuieren_ 'to (go for a) stroll', 'to saunter', 'to lounge (around)'? If so, I assume that the common semantic base would be *"to while away the time." > originally meant "vr?vl, v?s" ie. the same as "vysevaze". _Vr?vl_ must be related to (derived from?) LS _vrevel_ ~ _vr?vel_ ~ _vrewel_ ~ _vr?wel_ 'heinous deed', 'crime', 'evil-doing', 'wantonness', 'sin(fulness)' (cf. German _Frevel_, Dutch _vrevel_?). I feel it's a very old-fashioned, biblical-sounding word. I wonder if _v?s_ is related to (i.e. the /-l-/ iterative verb form of) Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _vaseln_ () 'to tarry' > 'to talk idly', 'to drivel' etc. (also German _faseln_). I guess there must have been a noun *_vaas_ (*) at one time, but I can't think of one being used nowadays. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 5 00:19:11 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 16:19:11 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language minorities" 2004.03.04 (09) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAR.2004 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Subject: LL-L "Language minorities" 2004.03.04 (02) [E] on 5/3/04 1:29, Lowlands-L at lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net wrote: > How did people from Flanders come to south-western Wales and how did they > manage to keep their own cultural identity, including their language? It seems that there were settlements of Flemish merchants in Wales. Story goes that Scotland's King Alexander wanted to establish strong settled Burghs in his domains and imported weavers from Flanders and nerchants from Wales to get things moving. Hence the Scots surnames Welch, Willis, and Wallace. Seems our National Hero came from Flemish stock as did other noble Scots families including The Douglasses.. Regards Tom Tom Mc Rae PSOC Brisbane Australia "The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude, To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang, And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang." >>From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess' ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language minorities G'day, Tom! > Seems our National Hero came from Flemish stock as did other noble > Scots families including The Douglasses.. An dinna forgit oor ain byous, lief Goth-Scot: Sawnie Fleimin (a.k.a. Sandy Fleming)! Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 5 01:20:44 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 17:20:44 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAR.2004 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (08) [E] My books says that v?s might be related to Low Saxon backwaschen (bagvaske). Vissevasse/visvas (vyzevase I suppose) from older hvishvas, where hvas is an older form of v?s. The only info about vr?vl is: vr?vle (?ldre nydansk vr?vle, at sno noget sammen, svensk dialekt vr?vla) I think this is supposed to mean that it is a loan from Swedish. > > originally meant "vr?vl, v?s" ie. the same as "vysevaze". > > _Vr?vl_ must be related to (derived from?) LS _vrevel_ ~ _vr?vel_ ~ _vrewel_ > ~ _vr?wel_ 'heinous deed', 'crime', 'evil-doing', 'wantonness', > 'sin(fulness)' (cf. German _Frevel_, Dutch _vrevel_?). I feel it's a very > old-fashioned, biblical-sounding word. > > I wonder if _v?s_ is related to (i.e. the /-l-/ iterative verb form of) > Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _vaseln_ () 'to tarry' > 'to talk idly', > 'to drivel' etc. (also German _faseln_). I guess there must have been a > noun *_vaas_ (*) at one time, but I can't think of one being used > nowadays. > > Regards, > Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: Kevin Caldwell Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (08) [E] > From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (07) [D/E] > > Snakker seems a bit more informal still...so it probably meant the same > as "vyzevase" which apparently had the same meaning then as Danish > "vissevasse" today. > > Cheers, Kenneth It just occurred to me that this "vyzevase" sounds like whispering, so could it have the connotation of "idle rumor", that is, something that is whispered. I would also suggest "pish-posh" as an English equivalent. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 5 01:22:11 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 17:22:11 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language minorities" 2004.03.04 (11) [S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAR.2004 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Subject: LL-L "Language minorities" 2004.03.04 (09) [E/S] on 5/3/04 10:19, Lowlands-L at lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net wrote: > An dinna forgit oor ain byous, lief Goth-Scot: Sawnie Fleimin (a.k.a. Sandy > Fleming)! Whae cuid ivver furget Ooor Sandie ? Regards Tom Tom Mc Rae PSOC Brisbane Australia "The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude, To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang, And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang." >>From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess' ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 5 05:35:29 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 21:35:29 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (12) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAR.2004 (12) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Fowk, OK, here?s the deal (or part thereof) with Danish _vr?vle_, Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _vrevel_ ~ _vr?vel_, etc. At least I think so. First of all, the Danish form and probably also the other Scandinavian forms denote 'to gossip', 'to talk behind someone's back'. While they are undoubtedly related to the LS and German words, they seem to have gone into a specific semantic direction other than those of their LS and German counterparts. According to etymological sources, the origin of the word group does not seem to be completely clear, although old forms are known. Middle Saxon has the adjective/adverb _vrevel_, which developed from Old Saxon _fra?ol_, while German has the adjective/adverb _frevel_ (becoming obsolete in favor of _frevelhaft_), derived from Middle ("High") German _vrevel_ and ultimately from Old German _fravali_. These have the meanings '(overly) daring', 'foolhardy', 'hotheaded', 'imprudent', '(too) clever (for one's own good)', 'defiant', 'contrary', 'flouting', etc. From this, nouns (_vrevel_ ~ _vr?vel_, _Frevel_) and verbs (_vreveln_ ~ _vr?veln_, _freveln_) were derived, denoting pretty much the expected actions and deeds. Furthermore, at some point in time a semantic extension to 'transgression', 'wrongdoing', 'sin', etc., occurred I have a feeling that the underlying semantic theme is *"wrongdoing," "aggression," "aggressive," "unseemly," etc., considering the above-mentioned meanings and the frequent use of Middle German _vrevelen_ in the sense of 'to commit an aggressive act', 'to commit rape'. However, this may not be the original meaning. I somehow doubt that it is. Old English has the cognate _fr?vel_ 'clever', 'mischievous', 'cheeky', 'silly'. Can anyone come up with Modern English and/or Scots derivations? I can't. However, I wonder if there is a relationship -- genealogical or loan-wise -- between these words and English "frivolous" and its now rare or obsolete derivation "fribble" ('trifling', 'fickle', 'not serious', 'silly', 'irresponsible'), Scots _frevoll_ ~ _frivole_ ~ _fruel_ ('trifling', 'fickle', 'unreliable', 'irresponsible'), and German _frivol_ ('trifling', 'suggestive', 'risqu?', 'irresponsible'). These are supposed to be derived from French _frivole_ ('frivolous', 'shallow', 'flighty') and Latin _fr?volus_ ('trifling', 'silly'). Germanic _vrevel_, _fra?ol_, _fravali_, _fr?vel_, etc., with semantic ranges related to those of Romance _frivole_ and _fr?volus_ ... Coincident? So what is the etymology of Latin _fr?volus_? _Fr?vol-_ 'trifling', 'silly'. This doesn't seem to get us much farther now, does it? I would expect us to be able to dissected this root further. So, might there be an ancient, perhaps Indo-European, connection? Or are we dealing with loaning? If loaning, then which way? Is it an early, poorly explained Latin loan, or could it be a Germanic (or other) loan in Latin even, which then made its way back into Germanic? What do you think, folks? Am I barking up the wrong tree, pushing the envelop, going over the edge? (It wouldn't be the first time, to be sure.) I didn't see anything about it in any of the etymological sources I consulted. To push the envelop even a tad farther, let me ask you if you think that "free" (Germanic *_frijaz_, Icelandic _frj?ls_) and "reign" (Old English _wealdan_ < Germanic *_wald-_ < I-E *_?al-dh???-_), or perhaps a word akin to "will," might be lurking behind the backdrop. Thanks for thinking about it. Regards, Reinhard/Ron P.S.: By the way, when I was a child (which seems like eons ago) grown-ups would use German _frei_ or LS _vrey_ 'free' to mean 'risqu?', 'adults-only', etc. For example, a certain movie or TV show was considered "too free" for us kids to watch (which meant that we had to go to bed); i.e., it was not PG13 (which at that time was just about 75% of movie and TV offerings). I haven't come across this usage lately. Was this one of my uptight clan's idiosyncrasies, or are some of you familiar with it too? ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 5 15:24:53 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 07:24:53 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.05 (01) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze??uws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.04 (04) [E] > From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen > Subject: Vissevasse > What does vysevaze mean here? Any relation with Danish "vissevasse"? > (deu. Wisch(i)-Wasch(i)) ~ vr??vl, v??s ~ rubbish! > I read it in Reynke de Vos. > Grymbart sprack vort: ??nu klaget de haze > Eyn mereken vnde eyne vysevaze. > In Danish we say "vissevasse' for "rubbish", like I tried to find the corresponding text in the Flemish version. The Flemish version is geographically positioned in the area of the "Land van Waas", the "Vier Ambachten" and the "Oudburg" (Ghent) areas. Nowadays the North-East of the Belgian province of East-Flanders and the East of "Zeeuws-Vlaanderen" in the Netherlands. I quote from when the story about the hare Cuwaert has just being being told (I presume this is the corresponding event referred to above). Some versions: 1. p. 86-87 in: Van den vos Reynaerde, hertaald door Karel Jonckheere, Met een inleiding van [..] Gysseling. 1979, Brussel & Amsterdam, Manteau, ISBN 90-223-0656-9, 313 pp. Bilingual: Old-Dutch - Dutch 1.a 173 Doe spranc op grimbert die das 174 Die reynaerds brueder sone was 175 Mit ere verbolgentliker tale 176 Her ysengrin en weti wale 177 Ende ets een out blispel 178 Viants mont seit selden wel 1b Toen sprong op Grimbert de das, die de zoon van Reinaerts broeder was, en sprak met een verbolgen blik: - "Heer Isemgrim, gij weet als ik, dat een oud spreekwoord leren doet: uit 's vijands mond klinkt zelden goed. 2. p. 18-19 in: Reinaert de vos, naar de oudste berijming uit de twaalfde eeuw, en opnieuw in 1834 berijmd door Jan Frans Willems, ingeleid door [..] Hellinga, 1964, Den Haag, Bert Bakker / Daamen N.V. derde druk (eerste druk: 1958) No ISBN, 229 pp. Bilingual: Old Dutch - 19th century Dutch 2a Doe spranc up Grimbeert die das, die Reinaerts broeder sone was, met ere verbolghentlike tale 'Here Isengrijn, men weet dat wale ende hets en out blijspel 'viants mont seit selden wel.' 2b. Hier sprong Grimbaert op, de das, Die een neef van Reinaert was, (Broeders kind), en riep verwoed: "Zo, Heer Isengrim! dat's goed! Maar wij weten 't daar en boven: Vijands mond zal zelden loven. 3. Van den Vos Reynaerde, Het Comburgs handschrift, 1991, Leuven Davidsfonds ISBN 90-6152-750-3, 248pp large size, Contains a reproduction in color of the manuscript, a diplomatic transcription and comments. We quote only from the transcription: 177 Doe spranc up Grinbert die das, 178 Die Reynaerts broed(er) sone was, 179 Met e(er)e v(er)bolghenlike tale: 180 'He(er)e Ysengrijn, me(n) weet dat wale 181 En(de) hets een hout blijspel: 182 Viants mont seit selde(n) wel. 4 Reynaert den Vos oft Der Dieren Oordeel Facsimile van het rond 1700 in de drukkerij van Hieronymus Verdussen vervaardigde volksboek. [.. Vanzandvoort ... Wackers ... Geeraedts...] 1988, Antwerpen & Apeldoorn, Bergmans ISBN 90-70959-16-X, 39 pp introduction 64 pp facsimile of an old printed version (not dated) in gothic character setting. Some characters are only partly printed, and this makes it difficult to read from a facsimile. Doen seyde Grimbaert den Das (Die Reynaers Neve was) met eenen grammen moet: Heer Ise- grim / dat is seer qualijck ghesproken/ men seydt ghemeyneijck s'vyan(?)d'(?)s verwijt / is haet ende nijt: [...] I annex the lemma "Wissewasje" from the WNT CD-ROM. Regards, Roger Annex: WISSEWASJE ??? WISJE WASJE, WISJEWASJE ???, znw. onz., mv. -s. Redupliceerend klankwoord (vgl. viezevazen) met onduidelijke herkomst. Nfri. wissewasse, eng. wish-wash, wishy-washy; hd. wischiwaschi, wischwasch. Voor eenige oudere etymologische beschouwingen zie STOETT3 n?? 2463 [1916]. In den vorm wissewasje met assimilatie van den inlaut uit wisjewasje. In het mv. van dezen laatsten vorm in de 17de e. soms met een s-suffix aan zoowel eerste als tweede lid. I) Als znw. 1) In toep. op onstoff. zaken: zaak van geringe waarde of belang, beuzeling, bagatel. Veelal in het mv. a) In het alg. || SEWEL [1691]. V. DALE [1872 ??]. ??? Men moet al dobbelen kruys om kruys, en 't eene so wat tegens 't andere stellen. Dan moeten wy, en dan sy altemet eens deur den hekel passeren, 't sal wel gaen, Treckje selven sulke wisjes wasjes niet eens aen, Kl. v.d. Pasquilm. 9 [1674]. Vergelijk eens onze Dichters met de Fransche in hun onderwerpen, 't zijn altemael wissewasjes daer de Fransche van zingen; alles is deftig daer de onze van handelen, oorlogen, veldslagen ... of Historiestukken, Br. a. R.M. v. Goens 1, 192 [1766]. Hij maakt dus ieder een wijs dat het niet om het lijf heeft, dat het is een wisje wasje, een bagatel, GALES, Twee Redev. 38 [1795]. Moest het niet ... de pati??nt zijn, die zich beklaagde dat zijn arts hem voor alle wissewasjes een visite aanschreef? Hoe het zij, Dr. Deluw maakte zich gereed om naar dit wissewasje van mevrouw van Alpijn te gaan zien, BEETS, C.O. 115 [1839]. Dat de burgers van Jeruzalem nu eens elkaar moesten verstaan en ophouden met al die harrewarrerij om wisjewasjes, VERMEYLEN, Wand. J. 25 [1906]. De geachte afgevaardigde uit Assen heeft, sprekende over de simulatie, het voorgesteld, alsof ik zou willen, dat de arbeider voor elk ???wissewasje??? naar den dokter zou moeten loopen en zich ziek melden, Hand. St.-Gener. 1910-'11, Tw. K., 2437 a. b) Uitlating of woorden met weinig inhoud, waarde of belang; kletspraatje. Ook in toep. op sterk vormelijk of complimenteus taalgebruik met pejoratieve beteekenisnuances als ???gekunsteld???, ???niet oprecht gemeend??? e.d. en dan zooveel als: fraaiigheidje, mooi praatje; gekheidje. || MARIN [1701]. ??? Dat men dan alle lange klause schout ..., Men kan, mit al die wisjes wasjes, niet an 't end, van de zaak, komen; Op veul zins en weinig woorden word altijd goe acht enomen, Daar dat lang teemen de Auditores (bij een tooneelstuk) maar verdrietig maakt, GRAMSBERGEN, Hart. v. P. B 1 r?? [1650]. Dat de ziele, dat edelste deel der menschen, daer mede (t.w. met ???een stil bederf???) bezet en besmet is, dat en zijn geen wisse-wasjes; gheen praetjes, van over end' te slapen, DE BRUNE, Bank. 2, 8 [1658]. Wil je Fransch spreeken, spreek Fransch, maar met volk dat in die Taal is bedreeven. Maar als je Hollandsch spreekt, laat die wisjes wasjes dan weg, BERNAGIE, Belach. Jonker 26 [1684]. Ik vermaan je, laat je niet door wisje wasjes, en schoone beloften blinden, BERNAGIE, Debauchant 10 [1686]. ???Gy denkt zeker dat ik dry jaren lang op een fransch pensionnaet ben geweest om onbeleefd en bot te blyven? Die jonge heer is eene kennis van my ....??? ???Wel, wel, Siska! Zyt gy niet beschaemd om zoo veel wisje-wasjes te maken met den zoon van uw vaders baerdkrabber???? CONSC., Siska v. R. 83 [1844]. ??? In een toep. waarbij wsch. door verkorting slechts het eerste lid werd aangewend. || Gisteren seyde mij Mary, dat hij veel wisjes met haer elcke reys maeckte, en haer geseght had: Wil you go along with me? I have a great deale of money, C. HUYGENS Jr., Journ. 2, 471 [1695]. c) Twist, oneenigheid van veelal geringe beteekenis; geharrewar. Vaak in de verb. wissewasjes maken, twist verwekken, twisten. || V. DALE [1872 ??]. ??? Gij, Pieter, moet uwe Driften beteugelen, en om verder geen wisjewasjes te hebben als wij aan Boord zijn, zult gij uw Beminde het Mans kleed, dat voor Lodewijk was geschikt ter hand stellen, N. Alm. v. Louw en Krelis [1774]. De baljuw (was) door P. F. ???getergdt en gesegd zoo door W. d. L. als door W. V. ... neem het er nog eens af, en die beyde ook geraden waren geene wissewasjes meer te maken, bedreygde het er te zullen laten afhalen???, SMIT, Regentendagb. 538 [aangeh. woorden 1785]. Om alle wissewasje voor te koomen, heb ik Domin?? afgeraaden aan Professor te schryven, WOLFF en DEKEN, Leev. 5, 269 [1785]. Hij zoekt altijd wisjewasjes te maken, il cherche toujours ? susciter des querelles, KRAMERS, Ned.-Fr. Wdb. [1862]. d) In de verb. (een) wissewasje(s) bakken bij, met (zekere vrouw), een liefdesverhouding of avontuurtje met haar hebben. Sinds lang veroud. || Ik (zeyd Helena) bid ook aen u mijn gast! Gewaardigt u, dat gy na dese sluyer tast! Ik hebse self gemaekt; en droeg die als een dasje, Doe juyst, als Paris, by my, 't eerste wisjewasje Quam backen; en ik droegse naderhant niet weer, V. RUSTING 1, 628 [1693]. Een darde soorte van den uwen, Heeft sich bemoeyt, om, voor sijn lijf, Een schone jonge vrou te huuwen; En dan verhuurde hy hymlijk, 't wijf, Om wisjewasjes mee te bakken; En sy, sy is'er mee vergult: So wort het horenbeest sijn sakken, En haar het onderlijf gevult, 2, 3, 173 [1698]. 2) In toep. op stoff. zaken: zaak van geringe waarde, kleinigheid. Specifieker ook: klein geschenk, snuisterij. Veelal in het mv. || De Konstapel ... zag aan de overzyde van de rivier een' oude vrouw, die op eene allerjammerlykste wyze weende .... Ten langen lesten werd zy een weinig bedaarder, bood hem haar hand aan en beval dat hem de twee varkens zouden gegeven worden: tot erkentenis wilde hy haar de waarde dubbel daar voor wedergeven, maar zy wilde zelfs het geringste wisjewasje niet aannemen, HAWKESWORTH, Reizen 87 [1774]. Dewijl het Betje's jaardag is, heb ik haar zo wat wisjewasjes van kanten, en linten, naar de mode gekocht, WOLFF en DEKEN, Wildsch. 3, 85 [1793]. De mensch is overal zoo gemaakt, dat hij zich zoekt te verheffen, de een boven den ander. Dit bragt de Koningen en Vorsten op den inval van dit huismiddel; ten einde de gunstelingen of verdienstvolle mannen te betaalen met linten en wisjewasjes, V. WOENSEL, Rusl. 296 [1804]. Verzoek haar, die breuk tusschen haar gemaal en u we??r te heelen, en ik zet al wat ik bezit tegen een wisjewasjen, zoo zy niet u nog meer in gunst brengt dan te voren, V. LENNEP, Po??t. 11, 251 [1854]. Het verblijf hier is vrij eentonig en toch zou ik de plaats met weemoed verlaten. Men raakt gehecht aan zijn huis, honden (4), apen (3), kippen (nooit geteld) en andere wissewasjes die de kern van het leven blijken te zijn, V.D. TUUK, Pen in Gal 138 [1871]. 3) In toep. op pers. Veroud. maar nog gewest. a) Iem. met weinig benul; dom, stom persoon; sukkel. || Zoo dra als die nette diertjes door haar strikken, krullen, lonken, en quikken, den een of den anderen in haar net ... gevangen, en een kind twee of drie om de ooren hebben, zyn het de oolykste slooven, vuilste wisjewasjes, regte sleeplendens, en de onnutste taddens, die men met geen tang aan zoude tasten, V. SPAAN, Louwtje v. Z. 15 [1700]. Kees. Dag Waaltje, met jou Kermiskasje. Rarekiek. Dag dromm', brui heen, jou wissewasje, V. HOVEN, H. Kermis 31 [1715]. E. Och, moeder lief, 'k ben immers zoet. R. Is 't myn schuld, dat ik kakken moet? C. Die dorst heeft, mag die niet eens drinken? Cristyn (moeder van E., R., en C.). ... Ik raak voorwaar myn zinnen kwyt, Met deze kleuters en pistasjes, Een trits bescheeten wisjewasjes, ALEWIJN, J. Los 12 [1721]. Wat, djanter! wat is het dan? .... wissewasjen als ik ben! ik die geloofde zoo wel in het menschelyk hart te konnen lezen; ik, die zoo veel zag en ondervond toen ik acht jaren en zeven maenden als dragonder in oostenrykschen dienst was ??? ik zou my hier misgist hebben? WILLEMS, Nal. 208 [1811]. b) (Antw. en Brab.) Pers. met een onstandvastig karakter; veranderlijk, lichtzinnig, onbezonnen mensch. || Wiezewaasje, ... lichtzinnig, veranderlijk, onbezonnen mensch, SCHUERM. [1870]. CORN.-VERVL. [1903]. II) Als tusschenw. 4) Als uitroep ter uitdrukking dat men het oneens is met wat iem. doet of zegt of dit wil relativeeren. Veroud. || Wat redenen ick sprack, ick hoorde niet uyt Jasje Als tut, tut, wisje wasje: In 't ende wierd' ick gramm, en stiet hem in een plasje; Doe seide ick op mijn' beurt, gaet henen, wiss je wass je, HUYGENS 2, 243 [1655]. Daer was bij dit schip noch een lootsschuyt, die mede ordonneerde aenstonts van boort aff te steecken, waer op dito makelaer Rietvelt tegens den lootz sey, ???wissie wassie blijff jey hier maer bij ons, daer is niet een bruy aen gelegen???, Verbaal Amb. Wassenaar-Duiv. e.a. 96 [1685]. Wisje wasje, al lang genoeg gespeeld, Laat ons wat ander vermaak neemen, BERNAGIE, Debauchant 32 [1686]. D. Myn vertrek van daag, dat had zy niet verwagt. R. Is het dan niet van daag, zo laat het zyn te nagt. Kom, wisje, wasje, 'k zal die boodschap wel bestellen, En in haar droefheid vaak een uurtje gaan verzellen, V. HALMAEL 3, 3, 29 [1711]. Wisjewasje! ik zou 'er eens me?? lachen, Nonsence! I would laugh at it, SEWEL [1766]. Samenst. Wissewasjepraatje, beuzelpraatje. || De laatstgenoemde (kroeggasten) (begonden) zoo wat baggatellen, knapuilen, en wisjewasjespraatjes voor den dag te brengen, alleenlyk om met eerstgenoemde Kinkels aan den Wartel of questie te geraken, V. SPAAN, Louwtje v. Z. 140 [1702]. Ik lach wat met je wisje wasje praatjes, V. EFFEN, Spect. 2, 222 [1732]. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 5 16:41:58 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 08:41:58 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.05 (02) [A/E/German] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: denis dujardin Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (08) [E] As I might have mentioned before, "Snakkn en Bitn" is a Westflemish expression, which describes a person who talks in a very agressive way and who allways looks angry. So "snakkn" in westflemish, only remains in a very pejorative connotation. "Afsnakkn" f.e. meaning answering in a very impolite way, denis dujardin kortrijk westflanders ---------- From: ezinsser at tiscali.co.za Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (10) [E] Hi all, I'm intrigued that the Afrikaans form _bakvissie_ for an immature giggly young girl seems so similar to the Low Saxon _backwaschen_ (bagvaske). Any connection? Regards, Elsie Zinsser ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Here's to another day of etymological frivolities. :) Denis (above): > "Afsnakkn" f.e. meaning answering in a very impolite way, In Lowlands German (where _snakken_ now just means 'to talk' without an inherent negative tone), _af-snakken_ () occurs with the reflexive pronoun _sik_ and in this combination means something like 'to confer with each other', 'to plan together', 'to come to an agreement'. And there is the verb _mit-snakken_ (). (_Mit_ 'with'). It has two meanings. It can denote 'to participate in a dialogue', 'to attend a meeting and participate in the proceedings or discussions'. The other meaning is 'to chat up', 'to coax (by means of words)', 'to talk someone into following', usually with sexual intentions, especially in the context of sexual preditors, (potential) child abusers. We use the verb _mits(ch)nacken_ and the noun _Mits(ch)nacker_ in Missingsch and in other North German dialects as well. When we were children we would be constantly told to beware of _Mits(ch)nacker(s)_. We weren't told what they would do to us, just sensed that we would disappear if we went with them. So to us a _Mits(ch)nacker_ was a sort of bogeyman specializing in daytime abductions (as opposed to the _Bu(h)mann_ or _Butzemann_, the nocturnal counterpart). Later I was told that there was the occasional _Mits(ch)nackerin_, a female version, that a certain neighbor was one of them, and that I should not run any errands for her if she asked. This may have been simply silly _snak_ to ostracize her (which wasn't uncommon regarding "older" unmarried women), but she did use to "hang out the window" in her underwear, and the older boys would exchange knowing grins with each other when they saw her or whispered about her ... Her "official" neighborhood name was "Tippeltante" ("Auntie Patter", mostly because she always wore stiletto-heel shoes, and partly inspired by LS _tippeln_ 'to roam' and _tippelbrouder_ 'bum', 'hobo', 'tramp'). I am sure other North Germans on the list know these words (_mits(ch)nacken_ and _Mits(ch)nacker_) from their childhoods. Elsie (above): > I'm intrigued that the Afrikaans form _bakvissie_ for an immature giggly > young girl seems so similar to the Low Saxon _backwaschen_ (bagvaske). I don't think there is a connection. However, I'm pretty sure that Afrikaans _bakvissie_ (which must sound like "(little) baked/baking fish") is related to German _Backfisch_ (sounding like "baked/baking fish"), denoting 'female teenager'. I used to wonder about the derivation of this word. Now it seems that it is a Lowlands Saxon (Low German) loan. One of the sources I consulted (http://www.libri.de/shop/content/leseproben/leseproben/leseprobe_5872707.ht ml) had this to say: "Ein Backfisch ist ein Fisch, der, weil zu klein und mager, ins Wasser zur?ckgeworfen wird (back = zur?ck). Schon vor der modernen Englischwelle wurden junge M?dchen, die noch nicht im heiratsf?higen Alter waren, h?ufig ?Backfische? genannt. Heute ist diese Bezeichnung nur noch gelegentlich gebr?uchlich. Unter ?Backfisch? verstehen viele das, was der Backfisch auch schon immer war: ein panierter Fisch, der in der Pfanne gebraten (gebacken) wird." In other words, a _Backfisch_ (in this particular context, not as a dish) is an undersized (and under-aged) fish that would be thrown back into the water. _Bak_ () in the sense of 'back' (and also 'against the wind') is apparently specific to the dialects of Hamburg. Hamburg dialects are known for their large number of (older) English loanwords that entered the language mostly by way of seafarer and merchant jargons. So, my guess is that German got it from Hamburg LS (most likely from the dialect of the fishing community Finkwarder/Finkenwerder), and the German word entered Afrikaans in the form of a calque (i.e., loan translation) with the "obligatory" Afrikaans diminutive thrown in for good measure. Alternatively, LS, German and Afrikaans independently got the respective words from English, because some sources mention English "backfish" as the source. I am not aware of such a word, though it is possible that it is or was used in certain English dialects. But it is also possible that German etymologists did what they often do: skip a step or two when an English word or component came from or via LS. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (12) [E] Ron wrote: > P.S.: By the way, when I was a child (which seems like eons ago) grown-ups > would use German _frei_ or LS _vrey_ 'free' to mean 'risqu?', 'adults-only', > etc. For example, a certain movie or TV show was considered "too free" for > us kids to watch (which meant that we had to go to bed); i.e., it was not > PG13 (which at that time was just about 75% of movie and TV offerings). I > haven't come across this usage lately. Was this one of my uptight clan's > idiosyncrasies, or are some of you familiar with it too? The word that is commonly used these days (and as long as I can remember) is "freiz?gig". Maybe your folks used "frei" as an abbreviation because they considered "freiz?gig" itself a bad word... this is roughly the same use of "frei" as in the phrase "ich bin so frei...", meaning, "I shall take the liberty of...". Speaking of uptight clans... when i was little, I was taught by my equally prudish family that the products that emerge in the bathroom are called "en gros" and "en detail". I fell over laughing when I was around seven years old and saw a merchant advertise selling "en gros and en detail"... [Gabriele Kahn] ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 5 21:45:14 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:45:14 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.05 (04) [D/E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. Subject: Morphology It may be a stupid question to linguists on the list, but as a non-linguist I'm wondering if the "weak" genitive on "-en", or similar, is occurring in other Lowland languages. e.g. in (old-fashioned) Dutch (both singular): - In de naam des HerEN - In de naam des VaderS In both cases the noun is masculine, but the flexion is different. cf. also the names of two adjacent municipalities (in South Limburg): 's-HerENelderen and GenoelSelderen. Below a text about name-giving scanned from: "Gedenkboek Nicolas en Jan Vrancken, Berg-Tongeren", 1967, 136 pp. Thanks ahead for all comments. Regards, Roger -- Annex [p. 107] De Familienaam Vrancken door A.STEVENS Licentiaat Germaanse Filologie De familienaam Vranken is typisch Limburgs in zijn uitgang. De uitgang -en van de genitief van de zogezegd "zwak" verbogen zelfstandige naamwoorden, vinden wij terug in een hele groep Limburgse familienamen, die zoals Vranken, zijn afgeleid van een vroeger of nu nog gebruikte voornaam (1). Vranken, evenals de in spelling, maar niet in betekenis afwijkende vormen Vrancken, Francken, Franken, betekent dus : (die) van Vrank, of, zo men wil, de zoon van Vrank. Vrank of Frank is een voornaam die afgeleid is uit de volksnaam "Frank". Deze voornaam komt reeds vroeg voor, nl. reeds in de 6de eeuw als de naam van een bisschop van Aix in Frankrijk. De naam wordt [p. 108] nu trouwens nog gebruikt onder invloed van de Engelse en Duitse naamgeving. Frank is weer een geliefde voornaam geworden. Wat de oorsprong en de betekenis van de stamnaam "Frank" betreft, kunnen we enkel vaststellen dat de zin en afkomst, van deze naam niet met zekerheid is bekend : er bestaan een drietal interpretaties, die we hier opgeven voor wat ze waard zijn. Eerste uitleg: Francos - hoc est feros (= de wilden, ongetemden). Tweede uitleg: stam verwant niet Oudnoors frakkr = promtus (= vlug, slagvaardig, vastberaden). Derde uitleg : stam verwant met Oudnoors frakka. Angelsaksische franca = werpspeer. (1). De familienaam Vranken betekent dus van Vrank (Frank), hij is ontstaan in combinatie als "Vranken Jan", met de betekenis Jan van Vrank = Jan, zoon van Vrank(2). ----- [p. 107] (1) De genitief van de zwak verbogen zelfstandige naamwoorden ging in het Nederlands vroeger uit op -en : zo zei men : In de naam des Heren (= In de naam van de Heer) ; 's-Herenelderen (= het Elderen van de heer (Willem) ; genitief van het "zwak" verbogen substantief "heer". De genitief (bezitsvorm) van de zgn. "sterk" verbogen zelfstandige naamwoorden kreeg de uitgang -(e)s : bv. : In de naam des Vaders en des Zoons en des Heiligen Geestes. Vooral in Limburg treft men een hele reeks familienamen aan met de "zwakke" uitgang "-en", familienamen die in westelijke streken (Brabant, Antwerpen), de "sterke" uitgang "-s" hebben. Wij denken hierbij aan familienamen als Daenen (v. Daan = Daniel), Rutten (v. Rut = Rutger), Daerden (v. Medaard), Coonen (v. Koen, Koonraad), Gielen (v. Giel = Michiel?), Gijsen (v. Gijs, Gijsbrecht), Merken (v. Merk, Mark, Marcus), Roebben (v. Roeb, Robrecht) en vele andere meer. In Brabant gaan vele namen van deze reeks op -s uit: Daens, Gils, Merckx, en ook Vranckx, Vranks. [p. 108] (1 ) Vrank, frank (en net Duitse "frank") als bijvoeglijk naamwoord in de betekenis van "vrij" schijnt aan het Franse franc" te zijn ontleend : in deze laatste taal zou het woord oorspronkelijk "Frankische Edelman" hebben betekend in de Merovingische periode met zijn vele "onvrije". (2) De mening als zou de "-s" in familienamen als Brabantse "Vranks" en in alle andere Nederlandse familienamen op -s (Peters, Jans, enz.) teruggaan op het woordje "zoon" is absoluut verkeerd en wordt door geen enkele naamkundige nog aanvaard. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Morphology Roger, In Lowlands Saxon of Germany, the old genitive construction you are talking about is obsolete, can only be found in a few archaic sayings, sounding very "biblical" ("in den naam des Heren"). The two native ways of indicating possession are "A syn/er B" ("God syn naam") and "de/dat B vun/von/van A" (de naam vun God"), though (possibly under German and/or Scandinavian influence) the alternative "As B" ("Gods naam") is occasionally used nowadays. Below are a few examples from Middle Saxon that show the construction you are talking about. (Ryghe = Riga, Revele = Reval/Tallin, Lubeke = L?beck) *** "do dyt de borghere vornemen inder stat, se quemen tho der brucghen unde wolden des mesters knapen thohouwen." [Albrecht van Bardowiks, 1298] "dat wi des macht hebben, dat wy se velighen moghen vor juch unde de juwe, dat moghe wy bewysen myt des mesters openen breven." [Albrecht van Bardowiks, 1298] "'gy heren, denket dar an, dat wy hebbet des mesters openen breyf, unde dat wi sint ghesant tho ju unde tho en dor eyndrachdicheyt an beyden sciden." [Albrecht van Bardowiks, 1298] "Hyr na thohant besamnede sych des byschopes voghet van Leale, her Helmolt Lode, eyn wert ryddere, van Revele myt des byschopes mannen unde myt den Oseleren." [Albrecht van Bardowiks, 1298] "In deme anderen somere hir bevoren [1297] buweden de borghere van der Ryghe eyne brucghen over dat water, ..." [Albrecht van Bardowiks, 1298] "hyr van huf sich grot cummer unde jamer tuschen den broderen van deme Dudisghen hus unde der stat van der Ryghe, tho Liflande unde over al de lant." [Albrecht van Bardowiks, 1298] "hyr under untsegheden de brodere der stat tho Ryghe." [Albrecht van Bardowiks, 1298] "Indheme namen der hileghen dreuoldigheit. van ghodes bort ouer dusent. vnde twe hundert. vnde vere vnde neghenttich iaar leet dhit buch scriuen har Albrecht. van Bardewich to dher stades behuf. Bi desen tiden was Borghere mester der stades to Lubeke her. Hinrich Steneke. vnde her Bernart van Kusuelde. In dessen siluen tiden waren kemere der stades to Lubeke her Iohan de Olde her Brun van Warendorp." [Stadsrecht van L?bek, 1294] "it si van des sones haluen ofte uan der dochter ..." [Stadsrecht van Lubeke, 1294] "dat schal bliuen bi des mannes eruen." [Stadsrecht van Lubeke, 1294] *** As for names ("Vranken Jan," etc.), this used to be found in Middle Saxon also and probably remained in a few dialects till recently. I know that something like this is still common in Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch) to this day (I think something like "Thiesses Fraunz" for "Franz Thiessen"). Perhaps our more knowledgeable members could correct/explain this. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sun Mar 7 20:30:25 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 12:30:25 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Terminology" 2004.03.04 (01) [E/French] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze??uws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. Subject: LL-L "Terminology" 2004.01.25 (05) [E] > From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. > Subject: Language mixtures > Some quotations from a case sentenced on Wednesday: Thanks for all replies. What's wondering me in this, is that quite some Latin expressions used in Anglo-Saxon law, are not shared with continental Roman law or it's heritage. I'm just wondering whether or not they are stardard Latin or rather Anglo-Saxon constructions in medieval Latin. I repeat at first my examples, folowed by their UK definition in Osborn's Concise Law Dictionary, sevent edition by Roger Bird, 1986, London, Sweet & Maxwell, ISBN 0-421-29680-1, 390 pp. > If a State deprives a citizen of trial by jury or passes an __ex post > facto__ law, [..] not in Osborn, but common language, not dealt with below. > Brief __amici curiae__ of Anti-Defamation League, et al. filed. > Brief __amicus curiae__ of National Education Association filed. Osborn: amicus curiae. [A friend of the court.] One who calls the attention of the court to some point of law or fact which would appear to have been overlooked; usually a member of the Bar. On occasion the law officers are requested or permitted to argue a case in which they are not instructed to appear. > __CERTIORARI__ --SUMMARY DISPOSITION Osborn: certiorari. A writ directed to an inferior court of record, commanding it to "certify" to the Queen in the High Court of Justice some matter of a judicial character. It was used to remove civil causes or indictments from inferior courts of record into the High Court, that they may be better tried, or if there has been abuse or error, re-tried. It has been replaced by Judicial Review (q. v.). > __MANDAMUS__ DENIED > The petitions for writs of __mandamus__ are denied. Osborn: mandamus. [We command.] A high prerogative writ which issued in the King's name from the High Court of Justice on application to the Kings Bench Division to some person or body to compel the performance of a public duty. It was replaced by an order of Mandamus which is now comprised in the procedure known as Judicial Review. Applications for judicial review are made to the Divisional Court. See JUDICIAL REVIEW. I'm not sure these UK definitions have a somehow similar content in the US. For finding eventual use on the continent I checked several sources. (for "mandamus" I obviously also checked for the verb "mandare"; I'm not listing though occurances of variants of the noun "mandate") Dutch (B + Nl) Constant De Koninck: Glossarium van Latijnse en Romeinse rechtstermen, 1993, Antwerpen & Apeldoorn, Maklu, ISBN 90-6215-378-X, xi + 449 pp. amicus curiae: not listed certiorari: not listed mandamus: not listed Dutch (B) E. Dirix e.a., De Valks Juridisch Woordenboek, 2001, Antwerpen Intersentia, ISBN 90-9095-148-1, 431 pp. amicus curiae: not listed certiorari: not listed mandamus: not listed Dutch (Nl) N.E. Algra e.a., Verwijzend en verklarend Juridisch woordenboek, 12e druk, 2001, Groningen, Martinus Nijhoff, ISBN 90-6890-525-2, xi + 548 pp. amicus curiae: not listed certiorari: not listed mandamus: not listed French (France) G. Cornu, Vocabulaire juridique, 4e ??dition, 2003, Paris, Presses universitaires de France, ISBN 2-13-053703-0, xxi + 951 pp. amicus curiae: listed as Anglo-Saxon, quote: Amicus curiae Expression latine signifiant litt??ralement "ami de la Cour" emprunt??e au droit anglais pour d??signer la qualit?? de consultant extraordinaire et d'informateur b??n??vole en laquelle la juridiction saisie invite une personnalit?? ? venir ? l'audience afin de fournir, en pr??sence de tous les int??ress??s, "toutes les observations propres ? ??clairer" le juge (Paris, 6 juillet 1988 ; comp. Ncpc, a. 232), l'opinion de Famicus convi?? ne liant pas le juge, ? l'instar de l'avis de l'*expert ou du *consultant (NCPC, a. 246), mais pouvant, ? la diff??rence de cet avis (a. 238), porter sur des questions de droit (extension pr??torienne de la *consultation ordinaire, laquelle peut porter sur toute question technique, a. 256, cette mission hors s??rie peut s'appliquer ? des pratiques et interpr??tations professionnelles, ? des r??gles d??ontologiques, etc.) ; parfois nomm?? au Canada ?? intervenant b??n??vole ?? ou ?? d??sint??ress?? ??, ou encore ?? alli?? du tribunal ??. certiorari: not listed mandamus: not listed Roland & Boyer, Locutions latines du droit fran??ais, 4e ??dition,??1998, Paris, Litec, ISBN 2-7111-2913-6, xvii + 566 pp. amicus curiae: listed as Anglo-Saxon, quote: AMICUS CURIAE / Ami de la Cour Personnalit?? invit??e par la Cour, en dehors de tout texte l'y habilitant, en vue de fournir toutes observations propres ? l'??clairer dans sa recherche d'une solution. Cette mesure d'instruction innom??e et in??dite, en vigueur dans les pays anglo-saxons et devant la Cour europ??enne de justice, a ??t?? inaugur??e par la cour de Paris en 1988 ? propos de l'??tablissement de l'annuaire d'un barreau devant mentionner les activit??s dominantes de ses membres ; elle a re??u la cons??cration de la Cour supr??me qui a souhait??, avant de se prononcer sur la lic??it?? de la maternit?? de substitution, entendre une communication du pr??sident du Comit?? national d'??thique pour les sciences de la vie et de la sant??. L'amicus curiae n'est ni un t??moin, ni un expert, car il ne vient pas s'expliquer sur des faits ; il n'est pas davantage un conciliateur ou un m??diateur, puisque son r??le n'est pas de rapprocher les points de vue antagonistes ; il n'est pas, non plus, un consultant au sens de l'article 256 du Nouveau Code de proc??dure civile, n'ayant pas ? conduire d'investigations sur une question purement technique. Il s'agit d'une autorit?? appel??e, par suite de son exp??rience incontest??e et de sa haute valeur morale, ? enrichir les d??bats et ? offrir une vue prospective sur une question qui d??passe de loin le cas d'esp??ce. certiorari: not listed mandamus (just in the context of the execution of given sentences, and actually rather in a "French" form) MANDAMUS / Ordonnons La formule traduit le pouvoir d'injonction inh??rent ? la fonction juridictionnelle. Rel??ve de l'imperium, non de la jurisdictio. Tout jugement se termine par la formule ex??cutoire : ?? La R??publique fran??aise mande et ordonne ? tous huissiers de justice sur ce requis, de mettre ledit jugement (ou arr??t) ? ex??cution, aux procureurs g??n??raux et aux procureurs de la R??publique pr??s les tribunaux de grande instance, d'y tenir la main, ? tous commandants et officiers de pr??ter main-forte lorsqu'ils en seront l??galement requis ??. Nombreux sont les autres cas en mati??re civile o?? se retrouve le mandamus sous la forme de l'injonction: injonction de produire une pi??ce, injonction de payer, injonction de faire... En proc??dure p??nale, le mandamus se rencontre, francis??, dans les ordres d??livr??s par le juge d'instruction ? l'encontre de telle personne : mandat d'amener, mandat d'arr??t, mandat de d??p??t. En comptabilit?? publique, le mandatement, dit aussi ordonnancement, se d??finit comme l'acte administratif par lequel l'autorit?? qualifi??e donne au comptable public, conform??ment aux r??sultats de la liquidation (v??rification de la r??alit?? de la dette et fixation du montant de la d??pense). l'ordre de payer la dette de l'organisme public (D. 29 d??c. 1962, art. 3 1 ). Swedish S. Bergstr??m e.a., Juridikens termer, Nionde upplagan, 2002, Stockholm, Almqvist & Wiksell, ISBN 91-47-05122-1, 212 pp. amicus curiae: not listed certiorari: not listed mandamus: not listed S. Martinger, Norstedts Juridiska Ordbok, Juridik fr??n A till ??, Uplaga 5:1, 203, Stockholm, Norstedts Juridik AB, ISBN 91-39-00927-0, 198 pp. amicus curiae: not listed certiorari: not listed mandamus: not listed S. Melin, Juridikens begrepp, andra upplagan, 2002, Uppsala, Iustus F??rlag, ISBN 91-7678-517-3, 431 pp. amicus curiae: not listed certiorari: not listed mandamus: not listed This does not mean that the Swedish have nothing in Latin. I list a couple of expressions from Melin: Majus includit minus: Det st??rre omsluter det mindre [...] Mala fides: ond tro Mala fides superveniens: Tillkommande ond tro Malefactor: Missd??dare The few words I selected last week, randomly from sites related to the US Supreme Court, show, I think, the Anglo-Saxon environment got it's own Latin developped, and this eventually included the creation of new vocabulary and expressions. Am I right? Regards, Roger ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sun Mar 7 20:46:36 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 12:46:36 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.04 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.05 (04) [D/E/LS] > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Morphology > > In Lowlands Saxon of Germany, the old genitive construction you are talking > about is obsolete Hi Ron, Thanks for your reply. What I had really in mind was that I have the impression the "weak" form (cf. German des MenschEN) became earlier obsolete in lowlands varieties than the "strong" form (cf. German: des MannES). A selection of examples in old Dutch, choosen from the lists published in A. van Loey, Middelnederlandse Spraakkunst, I. Vormleer, 1973, Groningen, Tjeenk Willink Strong flexion (-s) / masculine (samples): arm avont baert berch biskop... Strong flexion (-s) / neuter (samples): aer (korenaar) been berd (plank) blat broot... Weak flexion (-en) / masculine (samples): ape are (arend) bake (ham) balke bere... Weak flexion (-en) / neuter (samples): aensichte antwoorde armoede bedde beelde... So, am I right that the weak forms became obsolete first, or is this a false impression of mine? Regards, Roger ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Morphology Hi, Roger! Perhaps I am now catching on, slowly. > What I had really in mind was that I have the impression the "weak" form > (cf. German des MenschEN) > became earlier obsolete in lowlands varieties than the "strong" form > (cf. German: des MannES). I have a feeling that that doesn't hold tru in the case of (Lowlands) Saxon ("Low German"). "Strong"-form constructions with which Middle Saxon abounds (e.g., _de dans des dodes_ "dance of death," 'dance macabre') do not seem to survive in todays dialects, while some of those using "weak" forms do survive in certain registers. Nowadays this would be something like _dey danss vun d'n dood_ or _d'n dood syn danss_, besides compounded _dey dodendanss_. On the other hand, Middle Saxon would have something like _it/dat leven des menschen_, etc., while _dat leven vun d'n minschen_ or _d'n minschen syn leven_ are nowadays still possible, though _it/dat leven vun d'n minsch_ or _d'n minsch syn leven_, besides compounded _it/dat minschenleven_, are normal-register expressions. Am I now on track with you? Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 8 04:53:29 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 20:53:29 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.04 (03) [E/S/Latin] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Brian Holton Subject: Help needed Hi I've been asked to translate some Latin into "17th century Scots": the text as I have it is this - Salvatore Mundi Salvanos,qui per crucem et sanguinem redem est inos. I think the second line may be corrupted, or there may be some late Latin I don't recognise. My best crack (1st draft) would be: O Warld's Salvator sauf us aa, wha throu bluid an corse redeemit us. 17th century spelling (?): O Warldis Salvatour sauf us all, quha throuch bluid an corse redeimit us. any ides? (sorry about the typographical guddle) brian ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 8 17:50:22 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 09:50:22 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.08 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Philip Ernest Barber Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.04 (03) [E/S/Latin] This is the famous medieval prayer: [O] salvator mundi, qui per crucem tuum et sanguinem pretiosum tuum nos redemptisti, salva nos... There are many musical setting of it as well. In the Anglican Book of Common Prayer(1662, tho the translation dates to 1549) (and presumably in Laud' s Liturgy for Scotland in 1637) it reads: "O Saviour of the world, who by thy Cross and precious Blood hast redeemed us, Save us, and help us, we humbly beseech thee, O Lord." ---------- From: Sandy Fleming Subject: "Help needed" [E] > From: Brian Holton > Subject: Help needed > > I've been asked to translate some Latin into "17th century Scots": the text > as I have it is this - > Salvatore Mundi Salvanos,qui per crucem et sanguinem redem est inos. Salvator mundi salva nos, qui per crucem et sanguinem redemisti nos. "O saviour of the world save us, who by thy cross and blood hast redeemed us". Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ---------- From: Heiko Evermann Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.04 (03) [E/S/Latin] Hi Brian, >I've been asked to translate some Latin into "17th century Scots": the text >as I have it is this - >Salvatore Mundi Salvanos,qui per crucem et sanguinem redem est inos. > I think the second line may be corrupted, or there may be some late Latin I >don't recognise. > A google search for "qui per crucem et sanguinem" (qutation marks included) leads to a number of sites with similar phrases: Salvator mundi, salva nos, *qui* *per* *Crucem* *et* *Sanguinem* tuum redemisti nos. So the line you gave us has *"salva nos" tun together * left out "tuum" * split redemisti and mixed up an i for an e (which did happen quite frequently as the pronunciation of short e and short i was similar). Regards, Heiko ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 8 20:16:16 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:16:16 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.08 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Fred van Brederode Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.05 (02) [A/E/German] From: ezinsser at tiscali.co.za Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (10) [E] Hi all, I'm intrigued that the Afrikaans form _bakvissie_ for an immature giggly young girl seems so similar to the Low Saxon _backwaschen_ (bagvaske). Any connection? Regards, Elsie Zinsser ---------- ........_Bak_ () in the sense of 'back' (and also 'against the wind') is apparently specific to the dialects of Hamburg. Hamburg dialects are known for their large number of (older) English loanwords that entered the language mostly by way of seafarer and merchant jargons. So, my guess is that German got it from Hamburg LS (most likely from the dialect of the fishing community Finkwarder/Finkenwerder), and the German word entered Afrikaans in the form of a calque (i.e., loan translation) with the "obligatory" Afrikaans diminutive thrown in for good measure. Regards, Reinhard/Ron Why not look for the obvious? Most words in Afrikaans have a direct link with Dutch words. Simple chance would make me look there first. Elsies Bakvissie is more than close to the Dutch word "Bakvis", meaning the same thing. The diminutive of which becomes "bakvissie" in many colloquial pronunciations. This still does not exclude the possibility the words origin to be in Northern Germany, but wouldn't it have travelled through Dutch to Afrikaans? Groetjes, Fred ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Thanks, Fred. Great point. I wasn't aware of _bakvis_ in Dutch. If it is a Lowlands Saxon (Low German) loan (directly or via German _Backfisch_), a direct English loan, or not a loan at all, yes, it would be one of the top contenders. However, (Standard) Dutch was only one of the main European sources for Afrikaans, mostly through official, bureaucratic and ecclesiastic use until Afrikaans officially gained autonomy and respect. On the spoken level, it was, at least in the early days, Zeelandic (Zeeuws) on which it seems to have been primarily based. Besides that there are of course English (because of English rule and domination), French (brought in by large Huguenot refugee groups) and German (due to large German-speaking immigrant groups that came to be absorbed largely into the Afrikaans-speaking population). And, beginning with the early days of European settlement in Southern Africa, among the "Dutch"- and "German"-speaking populations there were undoubtedly many Lowlands Saxon speakers, among which the ones from Germany (and its colonies) must have found that their native "dialect" came in handy when dealing with the "Dutch" of Southern Africa. So, yes, _bakvissie_ may well have entered Afrikaans from Dutch, but not necessarily so. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 8 23:48:52 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 15:48:52 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.08 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: "Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc." Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.04 (02) [E] > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Morphology > Hi, Roger! > Perhaps I am now catching on, slowly. > > What I had really in mind was that I have the impression the "weak" form > > (cf. German des MenschEN) > > became earlier obsolete in lowlands varieties than the "strong" form > > (cf. German: des MannES). > I have a feeling that that doesn't hold tru in the case of (Lowlands) Saxon > ("Low German"). > "Strong"-form constructions with which Middle Saxon abounds (e.g., _de dans > des dodes_ "dance of death," 'dance macabre') do not seem to survive in > todays dialects, while some of those using "weak" forms do survive in > certain registers. Nowadays this would be something like _dey danss vun d'n > dood_ or _d'n dood syn danss_,[...] > Am I now on track with you? Hi Ron, Thanks for replying. I didn't have the syntax in mind but just the suffix used for the flexion of the noun. For the use of "strong" and "weak", these words are used here similarely as the Germans qualify for the flexion of nouns. Strong: der Tag, der Kamm, das Jahr Weak: der Mensch, der Hase The weak "-en" suffix was apparently more often used in namegiving in the East, where the West (of Belgium) one rather used the strong flexion on "-s"; In Limburg a name could rather be: Jan Daenen In Brabant or in the Flanders the name would rather have been: Jan Daens. Jan van Daen or Jan Daenszoon could also also be technically correct, but one used rather and more frequently the flected genitive form for namegiving. The "van something" name forms generally refer to a placename rather than to an ancestor. Since DaenEN was maintained in Limburg, and since Limburg (due to closiness with Aachen-K?ln) was a bit slower in giving up grammatical complexity, I was just wondering whether the "-en" suffix generally disappeared earlier than the "-s" suffix for flected nouns in Low German varieties for the flected genitive form (and eventually was replaced with "-s" for as long as the genitive flexion of the noun survived). Regards, Roger PS. In popular namegiving in Vliermaal (Belgian Limburg), in the fifties, the "popular" family name rather preceded the Christian name: (the "real" familyname was something legally frozen, generally hardly known) e.g. Cloesen Lemmeke: Little Lambert, sun of Klaas [Neven] e.g. Nolles Gus: August, sun of Arnold [Thijssen] This reversal was not applied for other forms of namegiving: e.g. Gra vande Velthin: Gerard from the Velthin farm. e.g. Dzjang vande N?gebonder: Jan from a specific nine "bunder" sized area. "Van" for ancestors occured when the ancestor was not born in the municipality. My grandfather was born in Hoeselt, so my fathers name became: Dzjef van Pi?r Tais, and mine: Rozj? van Dzjef van Pi?r Tais. My grandfather still lived in our house when I was born, so I guess this explains his continued presence in my namegiving. My family name Thijs is generally pronounced: Teis in Dutch Tais in local Limburgish T??s in German Tiess in French. In English they generally are so kind to ask how it is pronounced, but then the "Teis", as I give, is rather pronounced "Tais" anyway. So I don't care, since this is Limburgish after all. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 9 04:37:42 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:37:42 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.08 (04) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Brian Holton Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.08 (01) [E] thanks for all your help. I think there might be a wee problem here, as the 17thC was when Scots began to write in English - the example of Laud's prayer book is good one. Still an on, it wadna be richt ti say at written Scots wis deid, for it wisna: formal prose an court poetry mebbes went inti English first, but the'r a guid whein o things - letters, diaries, Burgh Court Books an siclike texts - at steys in Scots weill up ti the back -en o the 1600s. But the request comes from a theatre company in Glasgow, so presumably they want something with a Scots flavour - I'll send the modern spelling. aye brian ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 9 04:41:45 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:41:45 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.08 (05) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Jan Strunk Subject: Syntax Dear Low Saxon speakers, I am currently trying to write a paper on the possessive construction in Low Saxon. I would really appreciate if all Low Saxon speakers out there (no matter what dialect) could take some time to translate the following phrases for me. You can either send them to me jstrunk at stanford.edu directly and I will post a summary later or directly to the list. Leive L?e, ek w??r ju groten dank weten wan ji een paor saken f?r mi ?versetten kunnen. Egaol wat f?r'n dialekt van't neddersassische ji ouk snackt... op de nedderlandsche of d??tsche sied van de grens of ouk plautdietsch.... Ji k?nt er direkt nao mien adres hen st?ern: jstrunk at stanford.edu of nao de list. Velen Dank! Here come the sentences: 1. My brother's horse is green. 2. I see her brother's horse. 3. His brother's horses are black. 4. I see their brother's horses. 5. This is his brother. This is his. 6. This is the man whose house we have seen. 7. These are their houses. These are theirs. 8. This is their country. This is theirs. 9. Do you know whose horse this is? 10. Whose horse this is is very important. 11. These men's horses are black. 12. The woman who I saw yesterday's horse is dead. 13. This is my dog's house. This one's is over there. Some of the sentences may sound a little odd. But I don't want to win a poetic contest. I need them as data for a linguistics paper. So, thank you very much again. Jan Strunk jstrunk at stanford.edu strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de ---------- From: Jan Strunk Subject: Syntax Hi, this is a follow-up to my last email. For those Low Saxon speakers among you who consider answering my query in the last email, please only read on after you have answered it. Because otherwise the questions in this mail might influence you and the data I get. Damn linguists, always have to make everything so complicated! If you take the time to answer, I would be very grateful. And you can get famous by appearing in my thank you note ;-) Please write to: jstrunk at stanford.edu Leive L?e, dat is de twede fraog ?ver possessivkonstruktschionen in't neddersassische. Wenn ji noch nich op miene eerste mail antert hebt un dat villicht noch daon wult, denn antert bitte eerst un lest denn d?sse mail wieder... De fraogen in d?sse mail hier kunnen ju villicht unseker maken... De verdorrigten spraokwetenschaplers mott alls ?mmer sou komplezeert maken! Dat w??r bannig nett van ju wenn ji mi antern d??n. Schrieft eenfach an: jstrunk at stanford.edu. Please don't let yourselves be disturbed by my orthography. So I am asking about "ehr" (eng. her) and in your dialect it is "i?hr" or "har" please just substitute your own variant! St?rt ju nich an mien schriefwies! Sett ju eegne utspraok in, tem bispill "har" anstatt van "ehr", un so wieder... Un hier s?nd de fraogen: Please translate: 1. This is Peter's book. Peter's is bigger than Anna's. 2. This is Peter and Anna's book. Peter and Anna's is bigger than this girl's. 3. Where is Peter's son? I only see Hinnerk's. Please try to answer the following questions: 1. Can you say things like: "den sien book" (meaning "the book of this person"). 2. If you can say: "de ehr book", does this mean "the book of this woman" or "the book of these people" or both? 3. Can you say: "he sien book" meaning "his book"? or maybe "em sien book"? 4. Can you say "se ehr book"? What does it mean? (Is it only the polite form, i.e. German "Sie"?) 5. Can you say things like "mien sien book"? If so, only for joking or in serious conversation? 6. Can you say "Peter sien un Hinnerk sien Hus s?nd sch?n"? If so, how many houses are there? 7. Can you say "Peter sien Hus un Hinnerk sien is sch?n?" 8. If you use "j?mehr" for eng. "their" in your dialect, can you say: "de L??d j?mehr h??s s?nd sch??n."? Velen Dank! Beste gr?ten ut'n sonnigen Kalifornien! Jan Strunk jstrunk at stanford.edu strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 9 17:00:12 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:00:12 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.09 (01) [E/Danish] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Help needed [E/Danish] Goedemiddag, Yesterday I received the following question from someone from Danmark. Does anyone know the etymology of the Danish word 'kovirke' and is it possible that this word has Saxon, Frisian or maybe even Dutch roots? Regards, Mathieu -------------------------------- Jeg er cand mag i dansk og historie og er meget interesseret i forhold mellem trafik og bysamfund. Jeg har netop set i "The Railway Magazine" at man i ?r har 400 ?rs jubil?um for "rail traffic", dateret efter en ans?gning om lov til anl?g af minebane i Durham County. Danmarks geografi er som skabt til sejlads og det kan vel ikke udelukkes at der de steder, hvor ordet drag indg?r i stednavnet, har v?ret et sl?bested over land. Der har v?ret en sejlrute mellem Ribe og Kolding og ark?ologiske udgravninger har p?vist en sejlrute via Treene til Hedeby. Sp?rgsm?let er om ikke s?vel Danevirke som Kovirke har v?ret f?stningsv?rker, der skulle beskytte denne trafik. Navnet Kovirke har altid v?ret et mysterium, men da jeg l?ste det sidste ummer af Fregatten Jyllands tidsskrift studsede jeg over navnet kobrygge. Mange s?mandsudstryk er frisiske, s? jeg slog op i en nederlandsk-engelsk ordbog under kobrygge og fandt: KOEBRUG - LOOPPLANK, GANGPLANK. Desuden KOEBRUGDEK. Alts? d?! ksplanker, i det konkrete tilf?lde mellem formast og stormast. Kovirke kan derfor v?re afledt af KOE WERK, alts? et palidsadev?rk. Er er ord som koe i denne forbindelse frisisk? Venlig hilsen Erland Egefors -------------------------------- ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 9 18:20:28 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:20:28 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.09 (02) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Helge Tietz Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.08 (05) [E/LS] Leve Jan, Dat is min version in de neddersassische dialekt vun Wiste (Hohenwestedt), Rendsborg-Eggernfoer: > 1. My brother's horse is green. Min brodhers peerd is groen. > 2. I see her brother's horse. Ik see eer brodhers peerd. > 3. His brother's horses are black. Sin brodhers peer suend swatt. > 4. I see their brother's horses. Ik see eer brodhers peer. > 5. This is his brother. This is his. Duet is sin brodhers. Duet is sin. > 6. This is the man whose house we have seen. Duet is de man vun dee wi dat hus seen hebb > 7. These are their houses. These are theirs. Duet suend eer hues. Duet suend (hoert) eer (to). > 8. This is their country. This is theirs. Duet is eer land. Duet is eers. > 9. Do you know whose horse this is? Weets du woelkeen dat peerd tohoert? > 10. Whose horse this is is very important. Woelkeen dat peerd tohoert is heelsch wichti! > 11. These men's horses are black. Duesse mansluets peer suend swatt. > 12. The woman who I saw yesterday's horse is dead. Perhaps: Dat peerd vun de fru dee ik guestern seen hebb is doot bleven. > 13. This is my dog's house. This one's is over > there. Duet is min hunds hus. Duessen is dar droeven. > Vlich hoelp di dat een beten. Groeten Helge ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Syntax Moyen, Jan! ?nnen vindst myn ?versetten. Ja, ik m?ss Dyn un Helge syn schryven in dey uutgaven in-geven, man Du hest myn eyrenwourd, dat ik my bit hertou dey inkelten saken nich an-keken hev. Beste w?nschen un kumpelmenten! Reinhard/Ron *** A = Hamburg dialect, German-based spelling B = generalized (?berregional) North Saxon, German-based spelling C = generalized (?berregional) North Saxon, ANS spelling 1. My brother's horse is green. A: Mien Broder sien Pierd is greun. B: Mien Broder sien Peerd is gr??n. C: Myn brouder syn peyrd is gr?yn. or A: Mien Broders Pierd is greun. or A: Dat Pierd von mien Broder is greun. B: Dat Peerd vun/von/van mien Broder is gr??n. C: Dat peyrd vun/von/van myn brouder is gr?yn. 2. I see her brother's horse. A: Ik seh ehr Broder sien Pierd. B: Ik seh ?hr Broder sien Peerd. C: Ik sey eer brouder syn peyrd. or A: Ik seh ehr Broders Pierd. or A: Ik seh dat Pierd von ehr Broder. B: Ik seh dat Peerd vun/von/van ?hr Broder. C: Ik sey dat peyrd vun/von/van eer brouder. 3. His brother's horses are black. A: De Pier von sien Broder s?n swatt. B: De Peer(d(')) vun/von/van sien Broder s?nd swart. C: Dey peyrd' vun/von/van syn brouder s?nd swart. or A: Sien Broders Pier s?n swatt. 4. I see their brother's horses. A: Ik seh de Pier von (j?m)ehr Breuder(s). B: Ik seh de Peer(d(')) vun/von/van j?m ?hr Br?der(s). C: Ik sey dey peyrd' vun/von/van j?m eer br?yder(s). or A: Ik seh (j?m)ehr Breuders Pier. 5. This is his brother. This is his. A: Dit is sien Broder. Dit is sien (~ (dat) von em). B: D?t/Dit is sien Broder. D?t/Dit is sien (~ (dat) vun/von/van em). C: D?t/Dit is syn brouder. D?t/Dit is sien (~ (dat) vun/von/van em). 6. This is the man whose house we have seen. A: Dit is de Mann, den sien Huus wi sehn hebbt. B: D?t/Dit is de Mann, den sien Huus wi sehn hebbt. C: D?t/Dit is dey man, den syn huus wy seyn hebt. or A: Dit is de Mann, von den wi dat Huus sehn hebbt. B: D?t/Dit is de Mann, vun/von/van den wi dat Huus sehn hebbt. C: D?t/Dit is dey man, vun/von/van den wy dat huus seyn hebt. 7. These are their houses. These are theirs. A: Dit s?n (j?m)ehr (~ de ehr) H??s. Dit/Disse s?n (j?m)ehr (~ de ehr). B: D?t/Dit s?nd j?m ?hr (~ de ?hr) H??s('). D?t/Dit (~ D?sse/Disse) s?nd j?m ?hr (~ de ?hr). C: D?t/Dit s?nd j?m eer (~ dey eer) h?ys'. D?t/Dit (~ D?sse/Disse) s?nd j?m eer (~ dey eer). 8. This is their country. This is theirs. A: Dit is (j?m)ehr (~ de ehr) Land. Dit is (j?m)ehr (~ de ehr). B: D?t/Dit is j?m ?hr (~ de ?hr) Land. D?t/Dit is j?m ?hr (~ de ?hr). C: D?t/Dit is j?m eer (~ dey eer) land. D?t/Dit is j?m eer (~ dey eer). 9. Do you know whose horse this is? A: Weest du, wen sien Pierd dit is? B: Weetst du, (wo)keen sien Peerd d?t/dit is? C: Weetst du, (wou)keyn syn peyrd d?t/dit is? or A: Weest du, wen dit Pierd (to)h??rt? B: Weetst du, (wo)keen d?t/dit Peerd (to)h??rt? C: Weetst du, (wou)keyn d?t/dit peyrd (tou-)h?yrt? 10. Whose horse this is is very important. A: Wen sien Pierd dit/dat is, (dat) is ganz wichtig (~ hett veel to bed?den). B: (Wo)keen sien Peerd d?t/dit/dat is, (dat) is heel wichtig (~ hett v??l to bed?den). C: (Wou)keyn syn peyrd d?t/dit/dat is, (dat) is heyl wichtig (~ het veel tou bed?yden). or A: Wen dit Pierd (to)h??rt, (dat) is ganz wichtig (~ hett veel to bed?den). B: (Wo)keen d?t/dit Peerd (to)h??rt, (dat) is heel wichtig (~ hett v??l to bed?den). C: (Wou)keyn d?t/dit peyrd (tou-)h?yrt, (dat) is heyl wichtig (~ het veel tou bed?yden). 11. These men's horses are black. A: Disse Mannsl??d ehr Pier s?n swatt. B: D?sse/Disse Mannsl??d(') ?hr Peer(d(')) s?nd swart. C: D?sse/Disse mansl?yd' eer peyrd' s?nd swart. or A: De Pier von disse Mannsl??d s?n swatt. B: De Peer(d(')) vun/von/van d?sse/disse Mannsl??d(') s?nd swart. C: Dey peyrd' vun/von/van d?sse/disse mansl?yd' s?nd swart. 12. The woman who I saw yesterday's horse is dead. A: Dey Fro, dey/wat ik gestern sehn hebb, de ehr Pierd is doot(bleben). B: De Fro/Fru, de ik gestern/gistern sehn hebb/heff, de ?hr Peerd is doot (bl?ven). C: Dey vrou/vru, dey ik gestern/gistern seyn heb/hev, dey eer peyrd is dood (bleven). or A: Dat Pierd von dey Fro, dey/wat ik gestern sehn hebb, (dat) is doot(bleben). B: Dat Peerd vun/von/van de Fro/Fru, de ik gestern/gistern sehn hebb/heff, (dat) is doot (bl?ven). C: Dat peyrd vun/von/van dey vrou/vru, dey ik gestern/gistern seyn heb/hev, (dat) is dood )bleven). 13. This is my dog's house. This one's is over there. A: Dit is de mien Hund sien H?tt (~ Huus). Dissen sien is dor. B: D?t/Dit is mien Hund sien H?tt (~ Huus). D?ssen/Dissen sien is daar. C: D?t/Dit is myn hund sien h?t (~ huus). D?ssen/dissen syn is daar. or A: Dit is de H?tt (~ dat Huus) von/f?r mien Hund. De von/f?r dissen (, de (~ dat)) is dor. B: D?t/Dit is de H?tt (~ dat Huus) vun/von/van/f?r mien Hund. De vun/von/van/f?r d?ssen/dissen(, de (~ dat)) is daar. C: D?t/Dit is dey h?t (~ dat huus) vun/von/van/v?r myn hund. Dey vun/von/van/v?r d?ssen/dissen(, dey (~ dat)) is daar. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 9 21:16:01 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 13:16:01 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.09 (03) [E/Swedish] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.09 (01) [E/Danish] > From: Mathieu. van Woerkom > Subject: Help needed [E/Danish] > Yesterday I received the following question from someone from Danmark. Does > anyone know the etymology of the Danish word 'kovirke' Just a guess: maybe there is a relation with the Swedish dialect verb "kovla" as in Kovland. -- quote: Kovland t?tort, S?ttna sn, Medelpad. (i) Koffle 1479 avskr. - T?torten har vuxit upp kring den ?r 1901 ?ppnade poststationen, som fick sitt namn fr?n en by. Namnet har fr?n b?rjan sannolikt ?syftat S?ttna?n. Det har sammanst?llts med det dialektala verbet kovla 'vackla, slingra', ett namn som passar v?l in p? ?ns lopp mellan Kovland och S?ttna kyrka. Namnet har i sen tid omtolkats som en sammans?ttning med - land. -- end quote quoted from: M. Wahlberg, Svenkst ortnamnslexikon, 2003, Uppsala, Spr?k- och folkminnesinstitutes, ISBN 91-7229-020-X, 422 pp. Regards, Roger ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 9 21:18:49 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 13:18:49 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.09 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: stellahenno Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.09 (02) [E/LS] Foar it Westerlauwerk soe ik it sa sizze: > 1. My brother's horse is green. Myn broer syn hynder is grien. > 2. I see her brother's horse. Ik sjuch har broer syn hynder. > 3. His brother's horses are black. Syn broer syn hynders binne swart. > 4. I see their brother's horses. Ik sjuch har(ren) broer syn hynder. > 5. This is his brother. This is his. Dit is syn broer sines. Dit is sines. > 6. This is the man whose house we have seen. Dit is de man d?r't ik it h?s fan sjoen haw. OR Dit is de man dy syn h?s ik sjoen haw. > 7. These are their houses. These are theirs. Dit binne har(ren) huzen. Dizze binne harres. > 8. This is their country. This is theirs. Dit is har(ren) l?n. Dit is harres. > 9. Do you know whose horse this is? Wistso wa syn hynder dit is? OR Witsto waans hynder dit is ? > 10. Whose horse this is is very important. Fan wa't dit hynder is, is o sa wichtich. OR wa syn hynder dit is,is o sa wichtich OR waans hynder dit is, is o sa wichtich. > 11. These men's horses are black. Dizze manlju har hynders binne swart. > 12. The woman who I saw yesterday's horse is dead. It hynder fan de frou dy't ik juster seach, is dea. OR de frou dy't ik juster seach har hynder, is dea. (frjemder,mar it kin ?l,tinkt my) > 13. This is my dog's house. This one's is over > there. Dit is myn h?n syn h?s. Dy fan dizze (OR dizze sines) stiet d?rjinsen (OR d?re). Henno Brandsma ---------- From: Tom Maguire Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.08 (05) [E/LS] Lowlands-L wrote: ... > Here come the sentences: > 12. The woman who I saw yesterday's horse is dead. > Some of the sentences may sound a little odd. But I don't want to win a > poetic contest. I need them as data for a linguistics paper. > Jan Strunk Hello Jan, Since this is for a linguistics paper it may be worth considering whether the above sentence shouldn't read: "The woman WHOM I saw...", or not. Regards, Tom -- Carpe Diem. -Visit Nlp in Education http://www.xtec.es/~jmaguire -Join Nlp-Education mailto:nlp-education-subscribe at yahoogroups.com -Join Seal-Spain mailto:seal-spain-subscribe at yahoogroups.com ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 9 22:07:45 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:07:45 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.09 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Addresses: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org, lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Luc Hellinckx Subject: Etymology Beste Mathieu, Erland en anderen, I might be able to help you a little regarding the Danish word "kovirke". I have researched all my Dutch dictionaries and didn't find the word "koewerk" in any of them, but I did find the word "koebrug" (D), which has basically two meanings. First of all, it designated a "gangway, a plank that is used to board a cow on a wagon or a ship", secondly it's a naval term for "orlop deck". Now this second meaning has nothing to do with cows whatsoever, because it is actually a corrupt form of older Dutch "cooy brugghe", litterally "cage bridge". This confusion comes as no surprise as you might know that "koe" is pronounced like "koei" in many (older) Dutch dialects. You will now probably wonder what the relation is between a "koebrug" and the Danish "kovirke". I cannot say for sure, but I had a close look at the profile of the "kovirke" and they actually seem to consist of three parts, a moat, a palisade and a dais. It is the latter, the raised platform that I tend to associate with a "koebrug', as it served to make the Danish warriors rise above their enemies. It has the shape and function of a "koebrug" (D). By the way, we did have similar constructions in the Middle Ages that we called a "bolwerk" in Dutch because they were made of what we call "bolen aat" in Brabantish, "beams" in English. When they were no longer used for their original military purpose, all over the world they became known as "boulevard" (via French). Hope to have been of some help... Kind greetings, Luc Hellinckx ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 10 15:23:09 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:23:09 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.10 (01) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Addresses: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org, lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Steven Hanson Subject: Syntax I wouldn't worry about this. Linguists these days seem to tend towards descriptivism rather than prescriptivism. They're more interested in studying the way people really do say things, rather than dictating how they think people should say them. Hello Jan, Since this is for a linguistics paper it may be worth considering whether the above sentence shouldn't read: "The woman WHOM I saw...", or not. Regards, Tom -- Carpe Diem. -Visit Nlp in Education http://www.xtec.es/~jmaguire -Join Nlp-Education mailto:nlp-education-subscribe at yahoogroups.com -Join Seal-Spain mailto:seal-spain-subscribe at yahoogroups.com ---------- From: Jan Strunk Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.09 (04) [E] Leive L?e, ek frei mi dat all sov?el van Ink mi een ?versetten schickt hiett. Dat sall aover nich heten dat ek nich nog mi?r bruken kunn. So, keep the good things coming...! I'll wait probably until the weekend and then post a summary here. Maybe, I'll even have my paper finished by then. By the way, it's also good to get translations from other Lowlands languages to get a comparison. Tom wrote: > Since this is for a linguistics paper it may be worth considering > whether the above sentence shouldn't read: "The woman WHOM I saw...", or > not. Ok, I might change that, although I (the German guy) seem to be pretty much the only one around here (i.e. California) who uses WHOM in such contexts at all (at least in the spoken language). Thanks for all your work! Jan Strunk jstrunk at stanford.edu strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 10 15:34:31 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:34:31 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.10 (02) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org, lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Help needed Beste Lowlanders, Weet iemand om welk dialect het in de onderstaande zin gaat? --------------------------------------------------------------- Too zea God: 'Der mot lecht wean!' En kiek, doar ha-j 't lecht! --------------------------------------------------------------- Ik vind het erg lastig om het te plaatsen, omdat er bepaalde Saksische elementen in zitten ('zea' for 'zei' en 'wean' voor 'wezen/zijn', 'doar' voor 'daar'), maar dat 'lecht' voor 'licht' vind ik erg apart. Iemand een idee? Bij voorbaat dank, Mathieu ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Help needed Beste Mathieu, Het schijnt een Nedersaksisch dialect van Twente te zijn. Maar misschien weet je dat al, en je wil de juiste plaats binnen deze groep weten? Groeten, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 10 15:47:43 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:47:43 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.10 (03) [E/Danish] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org, lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Helge Tietz Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.09 (01) [E/Danish] Moin, Mathieu, moin Erlend, Jeg tror ikke at Kovirke har forbindelser med Laag Saksisk eller Frisisk, orden "virke" er Skandinavsk men ogsaa Laag Saksisk, i Rendsborg Amt er udsprog "wirken". Ex: "Waa wirks du?" "Hvor virker du?". Denne hele Dannevirke var bygd af Dansker som forsvar mod Frankiske Riget langt foerre Frisiske, Hollaendske eller Hanseatiske koebmaende komte til Jylland. Jeg kan mer taenke at maaske Oksevejen som krysser Dannevirken speler en rol med navn "Kovirke". Forklaring af Luc Hendrickx om "Kobrygge" kan vaere rigti, navn "Bryggen" kan komer til skandinavske sproger fraa Nederlandsk/Laag Saksisk, jeg taenker ogsaa om "Bryggen" i Bergen, Norge, som hadde altid stor forbindelser med Hansen. I don't think that Kovirke has any connections to Low Saxon or Frisian, the word "virke" exists both in the Scandinavian languages as it does in Low Saxon and Dutch, the pronunciation in the Rendsborg District is "wirken" as, for example "Waa wirks du?" "where do you work?". The Dannevirke was build by the Danes as a defence wall against the Frankish Empire long before Frisian, Dutch or Hanseatic traders came to Jutland. I could rather see a connection between the Ox-Road (Okse-vejen) and the Dannevirke because the Okse-vejen crosses the Dannevirke at one point. Luc Hendricks' explaination about the word Kobrygge sounds reasonable, the word "brygge" seems to have Frisian, Dutch or Low saxon connections, I also think about the name "Bryggen" in Bergen, Norway. Bergen had always strong links to the Netherlands and the Hanse which might explain the name. Regards Helge ---------- From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Etymology > You will now probably wonder what the relation is between a "koebrug" > and the Danish "kovirke". I cannot say for sure, but I had a close look > at the profile of the "kovirke" and they actually seem to consist of > three parts, a moat, a palisade and a dais. It is the latter, the > raised > platform that I tend to associate with a "koebrug', as it served to > make > the Danish warriors rise above their enemies. It has the shape and > function of a "koebrug" (D). I'd like to thank Michel Coumanne, Roger Thijs and Luc Hellinckx for their kind help regarding my question about 'kovirke'. I have passed it on to Erland, and it is very useful for him. I assume the Dutch word 'koebrug' can be found in Danmark under the name 'kobrygge'? regards, Mathieu ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Using "bridge" (LS _br?g(ge)_, German _Br?cke_) in the sense of "landing stage," "(landing) pier" or "jetty" was very common in coastal Germany, and this is frozen in names, such as the _Landungsbr?cken_ in Hamburg. I've always assumed that this was derived from old-time temporary loading bridges consisting of planks between quay and vessel. I have never heard about a *_koubr?g(ge)_ ("cow bridge"), but I would not be surprised if such a word used to exist. Groeten, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 10 17:22:53 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:22:53 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.10 (04) [D/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org, lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Help needed Ik schreef: > Weet iemand om welk dialect het in de onderstaande zin gaat? > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Too zea God: 'Der mot lecht wean!' En kiek, doar ha-j 't lecht! > --------------------------------------------------------------- En Reinhard antwoordde: > Het schijnt een Nedersaksisch dialect van Twente te zijn. Maar > misschien > weet je dat al, en je wil de juiste plaats binnen deze groep weten? Ik dacht inderdaad meteen aan Twente, maar sommige dingen vond ik wat vreemd; Daarom deed ik navraag. Kunnen we dan concluderen dat het Twents is? groeten en bedankt, Mathieu _____________________ www.streektaal.net ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Help needed Hoi, Mathieu! Je schreef (hierboven): > Ik dacht inderdaad meteen aan Twente, maar sommige dingen vond > ik wat vreemd; > Daarom deed ik navraag. Als je weet ben ik geen expert van Twentse dialecten, maar het uittreksel dat je citeerde schijnt in in een dialect van die groep (inclusief het Sallandse) te zijn. Vergelijk het alstublieft met de voorbeelden van Twentse dialecten hieronder: (1) "Oawerzat oet 't Hebreeuws deur Dr. Anne van der Meiden met h?lp van ne begeleidingsgroep. Veur dree joar is der besl?tten 'n anvang te maken met 't oawerzetten van 't Oale Testament en dan benaamd eerst de bekende verhalen en wat kleanere, bekende beuke te nemmen. Zod?anig lig der now ne gapse teksten dee, zo blik ok oet internationaal oonderzeuk, beheurt tot de levelingsliteratuur van v?lle biebelleazers." (2) "In t leste van juli van dat joar lag de roow biej oons zoowat heelmoal um. In t veald, n trad of veerhoonderd van de boerderieje, hadn ze met twee man de viefteen scheppel noa een-en-nen-haalvn dag hoast kaant ofzicht. De vrouwleu warn in de tusntied drok gangs met t beendn van de gaarvn. En wiej, de twee jongs van zes en acht, mochn koffie met brugn noar t veald brengn. In ne karbies har grootmoo twee greune kann doan, met n vuske kraantnpapier in de tute teegn t oetloopn. Ok de gemaljeerde k?pkes warn in-epakt in papier, want koffie met stoeveriej, dat ko'j leu dee an t ?azn warn nich andoon. De plakn stoet met brood en nen snie spek der tusn zatn biej mekaar in nen blauwgebloktn sch?tteldook. De leu leekn nich al te v?l honger te hebn, zee keekn met bezwete k?ppe noar de wiedte woar t al wat duuster leek te w?rdn. En dat um dree uur in n noamiddag. Dan k?'j wa noagaon. Heb wiej alle gaarvn op n ean, veur t schoer hier is? st?n der in de oogn te leazn. Mer wiej keender warn nog analfabeet." (3) "No joa, hee hef mooi verdan doan, met t dichtn. Deur de bemeuienis van Goaitsen van der Vliet lig der noe n kaant beuksken. En dee Tweantse schriefwieze: loat den hilndal mer oaver an den oetgeaver. As der n regionaal diktee veur t plat komn zol, dan zol hee t wisse winn. En as der nen pries veur eignwiezigheid zol wean, dan gung den ok noar Goaitsen van der Vliet, da's zoo vaste as Meunster. 'Heurt s eavn, doar bin'k t nich met eens!' zol e dan wierum doon, en m?t zol kloar wordn, hee is den rechtn prieswinner." (4) "Wieders he'j n roondgaank van t leavn. Recht veraandert der zich nich wat: der wordt aaltied zeaid, meaid en inhaald." (5) "t Tweede part van dee tentoonstelling w?rdn vriejdaagns den 12n september in Eanske l?sdoan met ne muzikale biejdreage van Fay Lovsky (dee't doomoals oonder n naam Fay Lovesick ere eerste plaat Sound on sound hef loatn maakn deur 1000 idioten, t eign plaatnlabel van de Enschedese School) en ne geestige leazing van nen teks in t plat deur Gerrit Klaassen." (6) "Wiej hebt n keer biej nen boer oavernacht in t heui, bang veur breui, en wiej sleupn slecht en wiej waarn zoo bliej met t eerste lecht." (7) "A'j eer eern weelt doo'j dat deur dee sproake te gebroekn." (8) "Dan ha'j ne goeie buurt maakt." (9) "Heb iej ne stie op t net in of oaver Neersassies plat? Of neum iej doar van zonne sproake? As dat zoo is, dan k?'j oe ansloetn biej Plat(t) Online." Dit is waarschijnlijk genoeg om dit te tonen: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Too zea God: 'Der mot lecht wean!' En kiek, doar ha-j 't lecht! > --------------------------------------------------------------- "zea" en "wean": der wordt aaltied zeaid Tweants geestige leazing "doar": dat joar oaver oawerzetten doan noar "lecht": met t eerste lecht "ha-j": A'j eer eern weelt doo'j dat deur dee sproake te gebroekn Dan ha'j ne goeie buurt maakt. dan k?'j oe ansloetn Vallende tweeklanken (ea, oa, enz., die van lange eenklanken afgeleid zijn) zijn typische kenmerken van deze dialecten en van de verwante Westfaals-Saksische (inclusief M?nsterlandse) dialecten op de Duitse zijde van de grens. Groeten, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 10 18:08:25 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:08:25 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2004.03.10 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org, lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativia Dear Lowlanders, Since my last administrative message on February 20 we have been joined by several "New Lowlanders." Welcome to all of them! Below (on the bottom) please find a list of their places of residence. Please, everyone, "new" and "old," make sure you read and understand the rules and guidelines (http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules). If you wish to be temporarily absent, please let me know the dates, and I will be happy to suspend mailings to you. A few of our subscribers have occasional trouble getting their posting submissions to arrive via the listserver. Apparently this is caused by a combination of the ?reply-to? message setup of the listserver and individual subscribers? email program setups. So far we have not been able to identify the exact cause and thus find out why problems occur apparently randomly. However, our setup has been tweaked to lessen the frequency rate of such problems. If you do not see your submissions displayed or have not heard from me after about two days, please contact me. Alternatively, please resend the submissions to (instead of the usual ). If you turn out to be among the minority with this recurring problem, please use from then on. Please do not send the same submissions simultaneously to both addresses, since sorting out duplicates would be too labor-intensive for me. Once in a while people find themselves unsubscribed without notice. Some of them immediately suspect the worst: that I have "booted them out" for some infraction or other. And I know this for sure only about those that contact me. Please do not jump to this conclusion unless you have received prior reprimands and warnings (which has occurred very rarely, not at all for well over one year). If you find yourself disconnected from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the automated server has unsubscribed your address because of repeated "bouncing," i.e., because your mail servers keep informing the listserver that you cannot be reached. Most of the time this is due to temporary disconnection. Sometimes the reason is that a subscriber?s junk mail filter (or "spam" filter) has not been "told" to exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why our mailings do not arrive in your inboxes. So, if Lowlands-L mail stops coming, please first check your "spam" filters and adjust them if necessary, and only contact me about the problem if all of the above fails. Should you indeed be disconnected, please write to me or resubmit an application (http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=subscription). I?ll be more than happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold. Thanks for participating in and supporting Lowlands-L! Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net http://www.lowlands-l.net Places of Residence of New Lowlanders since February 20, 2004: Germany: Hamborg/Hamburg: Hamborg/Hamburg [1] Lower Saxony: T?st/Tostedt [1] North Rhine ? Westphalia: Cologne (K?ln) [1] Lebanon: Beirut: Dekwanee [1] Norway: Buskerud: Drammen [1] South Africa: North-West Province: Rustenburg [1] Turkey: Ankara: Esat [1] United Kingdom: Scotland: Fife: St. Andrews [1] Ukraine: Ternopil: Ternopil [1] United States of America: Alaska: Kenai [1] North Carolina: Pinehurst [1] Pennsylvania: Indiana [1] Tennessee: Gallatin [1] Texas: Forney [1] Utah: Riverton [1] Virginia: Harrisonburg [1] Richmond [1] ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 10 20:00:23 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:00:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Competitions" 2004.03.10 (06) [S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.MAR.2004 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org, lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Competitions Fowk, Ablo is a wee sumhin for aw the Scots owthors on oor leet. Guid luck! Reinhard/Ron *** Frae http://www.lallans.co.uk/lallans/comp.htm Lallans Annual Leeteratur Competeetion Scots in Schuils Entries is invitit. Prizes is offered for writin in Scots or in onie o the byleids o Scots. The'r twa clesses o entry: (a) Primary Schuils (b) Secondary Schuils Prizes in siller o ?40, ?30 an ?20 will be awairdit tae winnin pupils in ilka entry cless. Forby, the big an wee schuils juidged tae hae pitten in the bestest oweraw staundart o entries will win ?100 for thair schuil funds. Entries can be: (a) Poems (b) Short stories (c) Short drama scripts (d) Radio/TV programme scripts or swatches o sic scripts (e) Writin pitten ower intae Scots fae ither leids or onie ither kin o writin in Scots that micht be thocht on bi schuils. The abuin maun be in Scots oot-throu Entry is free. Entries shoud be merkit "Annual Competeetion", alang wi the schuil name, teacher contact, an be pitten in afore the deid-line o Juin 30t 2004. NB: SLS is talkin wi ithers aboot a major naitional prize tae kiver aw schuil's wark in Scots, seein a fair feck o competeetions is hauden the braid o Scotland. The bestest wark pitten in for wir ain competeetion will be pitten forrit tae onie naitional competeetion that micht be the affcome o sic talks. Adult Competeetion In the adult competeetion the Hugh MacDiarmid Tassie Will be awairdit for the bestest poem, an the Robert McLellan Tassie (an ?100) will be awairdit for the bestest cutty story. Thae tassies, hauden bi the winner for a year, haes been presentit bi SCOTSOUN. Nae ither cash prises is awairdit, but commendations is gien in ilka category at the juidges' discretion. Warks pitten ower in tae Scots fae ither leids winna be conseedered. Poems shoud be nae mair nor 60 lines, stories shoud be nae mair nor 3000 wirds. Entries shoud be merkit "Annual Competeetion", wi name an address, an be pitten in, alang wi the entry fee o ?4 per eetem, afore the deid-line o Juin 30t 2004. General Pynts Entries maun be oreeginal an niver afore publisht. Winners will be intimate an prizes awairdit at the Scots Leid associe Collogue at the hint end o 2004. Winners will be be latten ken no lang afore. Gin teachers or paurents is wantin tae come alng wi thair winnin entrants for tae hear thaim read thair wark at the collogue, thay're mair nor walcome. For ordinar entries isna sent back, sae schuils shoud haud copies gin thay're nott. At the eeditors discretion, entries can be setten furth in _Lallans_, or uised on this wabsteid. Copyricht bides wi the authors. Entries til: The Eeditor, Lallans, Blackfuird Ludge, Blackfuird, Perthshire PH4 1QP ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 10 21:09:45 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:09:45 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.10 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.MAR.2004 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Tom Maguire Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.10 (01) [E/LS] > From: Steven Hanson > Subject: Syntax > > I wouldn't worry about this. Linguists these days seem to tend towards > descriptivism rather than prescriptivism. They're more interested in > studying the way people really do say things, rather than dictating how they > think people should say them. Hello All, I agree that descriptive grammar is more scientifically linguistic and I abhor the Language Academy approach prevalent in Spain and France. However descriptivism may also dictate unless it is well documented in "the way people really do and say things". The University of Birmingham has an ongoing database of current language use in written and broadcast English, constantly updated through computer scanning of mass media language usage. But I wonder if even this really corresponds to "the way people... etc..." Regards, Tom --- -Visit Nlp in Education http://www.xtec.es/~jmaguire -Join Nlp-Education mailto:nlp-education-subscribe at yahoogroups.com -Join Seal-Spain mailto:seal-spain-subscribe at yahoogroups.com ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 11 00:44:23 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:44:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.10 (08) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.MAR.2004 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: "Help needed" > From: Mathieu. van Woerkom > Subject: Help needed > > Beste Lowlanders, > > Weet iemand om welk dialect het in de onderstaande zin gaat? > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Too zea God: 'Der mot lecht wean!' En kiek, doar ha-j 't lecht! > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ik vind het erg lastig om het te plaatsen, omdat er bepaalde Saksische > elementen in zitten ('zea' for 'zei' en 'wean' voor 'wezen/zijn', 'doar' > voor 'daar'), maar dat 'lecht' voor 'licht' vind ik erg apart. > > Iemand een idee? > > Bij voorbaat dank, > Mathieu > Hello, Mathieu ! I don't know which dialect that is but the sentence is very easy for me to understand compared with Eastern Frisian Low Saxon. There it would be: D? s? God: 'Dor maut l?cht w?sen (or: worden)!' Un k?k (better: s??), dor h?r j? 't l?echt! You see: we also use "lecht" (l?echt [lE:@Xt]. Greetings Holger ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Help needed Holger, Mathieu, Lowlanders, It's similar in other versions of Lowlands Saxon (Low German), even if you translate it word for word: Twente: Too zea God: 'Der mot lecht wean!' En kiek, doar ha-j 't lecht! EFLS: D? s? God: 'Dor maut l?cht w?sen (or: worden)!' Un k?k (better: s??), dor h?r j? 't l?echt! General North Saxon: Do se(ed') God: "Daar mut licht ween (~ wesen)!" Un kyk: daar harst (~ harren jy) 't licht! By the way, for those who need to know, this is Genesis 1: Hebrew: ????????? ????????, ????? ????; ???????-????. Latin: dixitque Deus fiat lux et facta est lux English: And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. Dutch Toen zei God: "Laat er licht zijn." En toen was er licht. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 11 15:59:28 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 07:59:28 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.11 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.MAR.2004 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: language varieties Holger wrote: > I don't know which dialect that is but the sentence is very easy for me > to understand compared with Eastern Frisian Low Saxon. > There it would be: > Dō sē God: 'Dor maut lcht wēsen (or: worden)!' Un kīk (better: s ), dor > h r jī 't lecht! You see: we also use "lecht" (l echt [lE:@Xt]. And Ron anwered: > It's similar in other versions of Lowlands Saxon (Low German), even if > you translate it word for word: This indeed shows that there is one Low Saxon language (with dialectical variation of course), instead of just Dutch and German dialects on both sides of the border! regards, Mathieu ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Mathieu: > This indeed shows that there is one Low Saxon language (with dialectical > variation of course), instead of just Dutch and German dialects on both sides > of the border! Thanks for saying that, Mathieu! You've made my day. :-) Differences are really not that great between the dialects, certainly not on the spoken level. If people spoke relatively slowly they should be able to understand each other even if their dialects belonged to the geographic extremes -- say, to Overijssel (Netherlands) and to Western Pomerania (Germany, on the border with Poland). Many of the differences are lexical, due to Frisian substrates (Frysl?n, Emsland, Oldenburg, Eastern Friesland, Westcoast Schleswig-Holstein) and Slavonic substrates (anywhere east of Hamburg), plus Dutch versus German influences due to power language pressures. The rest is mostly orthographic, i.e., not on the spoken level. Using Dutch-based versus German-based spelling systems has driven a wedge between the dialects on the Netherlands side versus the German side of the border. This is exacerbated by the facts that spelling guidelines are followed haphazardly and most people "out there" are orthographically not as adaptable as most of us on this list are. This has led to in my opinion unnecessary and unfortunate segregation and fragmentation. People's false notions that there are vast differences between the dialects and that orthographic standardization would be tantamount to eradicating dialects constitute one of the great obstacles on the way toward restoring language cohesion. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 11 17:25:35 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:25:35 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.11 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.04 (03) [A/E] > From: Fr?d?ric Baert > Hi Ron and everybody > > I can answer you for french western flemish and i apologize if you > find me > too long ! > > For the case of the verbs you mentionned, we have in french flemish: > > root : /gae-/ ; /stae-/ ; /duu-/ ; /zie-/ > infinitive : gaen ; staen ; duun ; zien > 1st sing. : 'k gaen ; 'k staen ; 'k duun ; 'k zien > 2nd sing. : gy gae(t) ; gy stae(t) ; gy duu(t) ; gy zie(t) > 1st pl. : me gaen ; me staen ; me duun ; me zien > 2nd pl. : gydder gae(t) ; gydder stae(t) ; gydder duu(t) ; gydder > zie(t) Hello Ron, Fr?d?ric, and all the others, I Have to find the time to look every day into my mailbox ! I Think once again the West-Flemish area is a transition-zone. These are the used verbs in our region: root: /gae-/ /stae-/ /duu-/ /zie-/ infinitive: gaen staen doen zien 1st sing.: ik ('k) gae /gaen ;ik ('k) stae:staen ; ik ('k) doe/doen ; ik ('k) zie/zien 2nd sing.: gy/je gaet ; gy/je staet ; gy/je doet ; gy/je ziet 1st pl.: we/me gaen ; we/me staen ; we/me doen ; we/me zien 2nd pl.: gydder/gulder gaet; gydder/gulder staet ; gydder/gulder doet ; gydder/gulder ziet Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 11 17:27:35 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:27:35 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.11 (03) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.04 (04) [E] > From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen > Subject: Vissevasse > > What does vysevaze mean here? Any relation with Danish "vissevasse"? > (deu. Wisch(i)-Wasch(i)) ~ vr?vl, v?s ~ rubbish! > > I read it in Reynke de Vos. > > Grymbart sprack vort: ?nu klaget de haze > Eyn mereken vnde eyne vysevaze. > > In Danish we say "vissevasse' for "rubbish", like > > "vissevasse, den hopper jeg skam ikke p?! Sikke noget v?s" > > Is 'eyn vysevaze' a person (here: animal) saying rubbish? or can it > mean > something else. > > Thanks in advance, > Kenneth > > ---------- > > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Help needed > > Hey, Kenneth! > >> Grymbart sprack vort: ?nu klaget de haze >> Eyn mereken vnde eyne vysevaze. > > This is how I understand it (in English of about the same period): > > Grimbeard spake forth "now lamenteth the Hare > A Fayned Fable and a Twittle-Twattle-Thynge. > > And in Modern English: > > Grimbeard continued, "Now the hare complained, > 'A fairy-tale and a bunch of hooey!' > > So, I understand _vysevaze_ to be a countable noun in Middle Saxon, "a > bunch > of garbage," "a made-up, nonsensical story," etc. > > Regards, > Reinhard/Ron Hi Kennth and Ron, Here is the Flemish meaning of the word: From De Bo dict.: viezevaze/viezeveze: hersenschim, droombeeld, dwaas gedacht, visioen, gril,... (E:chimera, vision, foolish thaught, caprice,...) Zijn hoofd zit vol viezevezen. De systemen van de goddeloze filosofen zijn viezevezen. Latijn: visum, spectrum: phantasma,phantasia. Viezevezen, viezeveesde, heb geviezeveesd: Zich met dwaze inbeeldingen bezighouden, grillige gedachten voeden, dromen, visioenen. Groetjes luc vanbrabant oekene ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 11 22:20:04 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:20:04 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language minorities" 2004.03.11 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Language minorities" 2004.03.04 (09) [E/S] > From: Thomas > Subject: LL-L "Language minorities" 2004.03.04 (02) [E] > > on 5/3/04 1:29, Lowlands-L at lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net wrote: > >> How did people from Flanders come to south-western Wales and how did >> they >> manage to keep their own cultural identity, including their language? > It seems that there were settlements of Flemish merchants in Wales. > Story goes that Scotland's King Alexander wanted to establish strong > settled > Burghs in his domains and imported weavers from Flanders and nerchants > from > Wales to get things moving. Hence the Scots surnames Welch, Willis, > and > Wallace. Seems our National Hero came from Flemish stock as did other > noble > Scots families including The Douglasses.. > > Regards > Tom > Tom Mc Rae PSOC > Brisbane Australia > "The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude, > To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang, > And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang." >> From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess' Hello Thomas, I wrote an article about the Flemish origine of lots of the Scottish nobility some years ago. So just have a look into the archives. Groetjes luc vanbrabant oekene ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 11 22:22:26 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:22:26 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.11 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (07) [D/E] > om: Hugo Zweep > Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2004.03.04 (04) [E] > > How about "wishy washy" meaning feeble or poor in constitution and > described > in the OED? > > Hugo Zweep Hi Hugo, I think it has to do with the Flemish word "weerse/werse" pronounced like [wIs@] Sometimes it is written "wisse": Een siroopachtig afkooksel, het suikersap dat men uit het mout kookt als men het bier brouwt, ook bierwerse of moutwerse genaamd (E: a sugary syrup, a decoction that comes from the malt when one brews beer) Wisse/wesse = afkooksel van graan of zaad (E: decoction of grain or seed) This is something different than viezevaze! > Incidentally, this (either from LS or "Dutch") appears to be the > origin of > English "snack," originally '(to) bite', '(to) gasp' > '(to) chatter'. Flemish: ne snak= a litle something to eat snakken= een haastige beweging maken om iets te grijpen. E: a hasty movement to grap something snakken= snauwen E: to snarl, to snap at, to gasp for... > > Regards, > Reinhard/Ron Groetjes luc vanbrabant oekene ---------- From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (08) [E] > _Vr?vl_ must be related to (derived from?) LS _vrevel_ ~ _vr?vel_ ~ > _vrewel_ > ~ _vr?wel_ 'heinous deed', 'crime', 'evil-doing', 'wantonness', > 'sin(fulness)' (cf. German _Frevel_, Dutch _vrevel_?) Dutch: wrevel( the w is pronounced like a v) > . I feel it's a very > old-fashioned, biblical-sounding word. > > I wonder if _v?s_ is related to (i.e. the /-l-/ iterative verb form of) > Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _vaseln_ () 'to tarry' > 'to talk > idly', > 'to drivel' etc. (also German _faseln_). I guess there must have been > a > noun *_vaas_ (*) at one time, but I can't think of one being used > nowadays. Flemish: fezelen (to talk very silently so that nobody can hear the secret) > > Regards, > Reinhard/Ron Groetjes luc vanbrabant oekene ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 12 15:18:30 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:18:30 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.12 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 12.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: d.denkers at home.nl Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.11 (05) [E] Dear Low landers, > > Incidentally, this (either from LS or "Dutch") appears to be the > > origin of > > English "snack," originally '(to) bite', '(to) gasp' > '(to) chatter'. > Flemish: > ne snak= a litle something to eat > snakken= een haastige beweging maken om iets te grijpen. > E: a hasty movement to grap something > snakken= snauwen > E: to snarl, to snap at, to gasp for... An expression which is used in dutch as well: Ik snak naar het einde. translated it should be something like: "I yearn for the end " With kind regards, Rick ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sat Mar 13 21:34:56 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 13:34:56 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.11 (01) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Jan Strunk Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.09 (02) [E/LS] Leive Leigl?nners, v?r en paor weken, heff ek op Lowlands-L een prototyp van een s??kmaschien f?rt Neddersassische (alle dialekten) v?rstellt. Nu is se nao http://www2.linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/LowSaxon/ ?mtrocken un me kann ehr nu to alle tieden (dag un nacht) ben?tten. Nu gifft dat auk en engelschet un en neddersassischet interface un een beetken gauer is se nu woll auk. Dat kann aover ?mmers nog so bit 20 sekunden duern. Apatt wenn wecke van ink nao varianten un bruukwiesen in verscheidene dialekten s?ken wollt, denn is dat nog ?mmers en heel deel fixer as alls wat me s?? sau daon kunn. Een regul?ren utdruck dei de socke resultaote ruutsmitt schrifft'me nich es even... Ik w??r mi bannig freien en beetken wat an kommentaore un v?rschl?g te kriegen, wenn dat denn 'n paor l?e mank ink gifft, de dat dings maol utprobeiert of villicht sogaor faker eens bruken. Hello folks, I while ago I announced a prototype search engine for Low Saxon. It has now moved to http://www2.linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/LowSaxon/ and is permanently avaible, has a English and a Low Saxon interface and is also a little bit faster. It can still take up to 20 seconds sometimes. But if any of you want to search for variants or the usage of some word in different dialects, it still is the easiest and fastest there is. There is no way you can write a regular expression that gives you the same accuracy in 20 seconds.... If some of you try it out or maybe even start to use it more regularly, I would really love to get any kind of feedback (bug reports, suggestions, etc.). Beste gr?ten! Jan Strunk jstrunk at stanford.edu ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sat Mar 13 21:46:28 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 13:46:28 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.11 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: jkrause Subject: Etymology Rick & Lowlanders, A bumper sticker once reported to me declared in Mennonite Plautdietsch "Ekj snak Plaut. Du OK?" Jim Krause ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Hi, Jim and other Lowlanders! > "Ekj snak Plaut. Du OK?" Looks like someone didn't do his or her homework properly with that one, unless _snak_ is really used in Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch), in which case I would expect *_snauk_, since short /a/ changes to _au_ in these dialects. This seems to be a direct (faulty) translation of North Saxon dialect _Ik snack Platt. Do ok?_ (_Ik snak Plat. Du ook?_ 'I speak "Plat(t)." Do you?') that appeared on bumper stickers and on buttons in Northern Germany (mostly to identify speakers to each other and to signal to the public that that's all right and should increase). Shouldn't it be something like this? * "Ekj r?de Plautdietsch. Du uck?" or * "Ekj r?de Plautdietsch. D? uck?" Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sun Mar 14 17:13:30 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 09:13:30 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.14 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Gary Taylor Subject: Phonetics Dear all Sorry bit linguisticky - Most of the Germanic languages have aspiration after the voiceless plosives, however Dutch doesn't. What came first aspiration or no aspiration? And if aspiration came first, any ideas why Dutch lost it's aspiration? And also, are there any Low Saxon or Frisian dialects in the Netherlands (or elsewhere) which share this feature of non-aspiration? Cheers for any feedback Gary ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 15 02:56:23 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 18:56:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.14 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Jan Strunk Subject: Links Hello everybody, I found an interesting website at the university of Essen. It is essentially a multimedia overview over the German language. (so not strictly a Lowlands subject), but it also includes a big chapter about Ruhrdeutsch which is a "regionale Umgangssprache" in the Ruhr valley. It's grammar and a sizable part of its lexicon is based on the local Westphalian dialects of Low Saxon, so it might be interesting for some of you and also an inspiration for people who want to build up such informative websites themselves. http://miless.uni-essen.de/servlets/DerivateServlet/Derivate-10178/64k/index.html The next link is a historical overview over the Ruhr German in German. Although, I haven't read it completely and disagree with some of the seeming main points, it is still a very interesting text: http://www.linse.uni-essen.de/linse/esel/arbeiten/ruhrgebietsdeutsch.html A very interesting collection of recordings of lectures on linguistic sociology: http://www.linguistik-online.uni-kiel.de/soz.html It contains several interesting chapters on Low Saxon. And while I am at it, here are some more interesting links: A modern "dialect" map of Germany. http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/didact/karten/germ/deutdim.htm The history of English phonemes: http://alpha.furman.edu/~wrogers/phonemes/ Kumpelmente! Jan Strunk strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de jstrunk at stanford.edu ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 15 16:43:54 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 08:43:54 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.15 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Helge Tietz Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.14 (02) [E] I have checked the linguistic map given by Frankfurt University and it includes a diviation if not an enormous error since it places the Lower Franconian dialects outside the Low German dialects. Frings, Gossens etc. clearly include them and Kleverlandsch has certainly a lot more in common with Low Saxon and, of course, Limburgsch, Vlaams and Brabants than with any other Middle-German dialect. Theodor Frings made once a very careful investigation to draw the divide line between Dutch and German in the Lower Rhine area in which he set standart Dutch and standart German as the extremes. Places with 50 % and more Dutch characteristics included cities such as Nuys/Neuss, Dusseldorp/Duesseldorf, Glabbeek/Moenchengladbach and where therefore north of the Benrath line, and attached to the Low German dialects (though Cologne and Aachen are clearly south of it) . Why is the University of Frankfurt diviating from it ? Helge ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 15 17:01:02 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 09:01:02 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.15 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: jkrause Subject: Phonology Excuse me, Gary. Back up here for a moment. What are voiceless plosives, and aspirations? Jim Krause ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology Gary, Jim, Lowlanders, Thanks for the questions regarding aspiration in Lowlands Saxon (Low German). I can only provide a fairly general answer regarding dialectal distribution. Jim, "voiceless plosives" in our language are /p/, /t/ and /k/ (versus voiced /b/, /d/ and /g/ respectively). In most LS dialects, as in the vast majority of English dialects, these voiceless plosives pronounced directly before a vowel (e.g., /pa/, /ti/, /ko/) are uttered with more or less simultaneously emitted breath, a puff of air, referred to as "aspiration." (In some English dialects of Southern England and also in some Danish dialects, aspiration is so strong that it leads to affricate pronunciation, such as [tsu:] for English _too_, which is probably how German went through the consonant shift.) In Dutch (as in all Romance languages, for example) this aspiration does not occur. Probably, this can be said of all Low Franconian and Rhenish dialects. Gary, according to my observations, lack of aspiration can be found in the westernmost and easternmost dialects of LS. The former are transitional to or influenced by Low Franconian. I believe that this includes most of those of the Westphalian group (but please correct me if I'm wrong, folks). Most of those of the extreme east are now moribund or extinct. They all have Slavonic and/or Baltic substrates or influences. Undoubtedly, aspiration is old in LS (probably carried over into English), but German influence should not be discounted as a more recent contributing or reinforcing factor in some of those closer to the geographic peripheries. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 15 22:18:28 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 14:18:28 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.15 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Stella en Henno Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.14 (01) [E] > From: Gary Taylor > Subject: Phonetics > > Dear all > > Sorry bit linguisticky - Most of the Germanic languages have aspiration > after the voiceless plosives, however Dutch doesn't. What came first > aspiration or no aspiration? And if aspiration came first, any ideas why > Dutch lost it's aspiration? And also, are there any Low Saxon or Frisian > dialects in the Netherlands (or elsewhere) which share this feature of > non-aspiration? > > Cheers for any feedback > > Gary > Hi Gary, Westerlauwer Frisian does not know it, although the neighbouring Low Saxon dialects of Groningen do know it (and are "mocked" for their pronouncation, which is quite marked from the point of view (or should I say hearing?) of Dutch or Frisian speakers. I have heard this aspiration in Saterfrisian and with some North-Frisian speakers myself, but whether this is German influence or autochtonous, I do not know. Others on the list (among which native speakers of said varieties) can be better judges of that... Regards Henno Brandsma ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology Thanks for letting us know about W. Frisian and Groningen Lowlands Saxon, Henno. This is important, considering that these dialects, like those of Eastern Friesland, Emsland and parts of the Oldenburg area, have Frisian substrates. (In other words, these dialects are spoken by people whose ancestors were Frisian speakers.) How about Stellingwerven Lowlands Saxon (_Stellingwarfs_), which is spoken in Frysl?n (i.e., Netherlands Friesland)? I assume it too has Frisian substrates. So we can say for now that in the northwestern region aspiration reaches as far as Frysl?n. Please note that in Modern North Saxon dialects, aspiration applies only to the beginning of a stressed syllable (i.e., syllable with primary stress, in compounds also to those with secondary stress). This is similar to mainstream American and Australian English. In contrast, it applies in *any* syllable in English dialects of Southern England and in Standard German. The North Saxon aspiration rule applies in Missingsch (German dialects on Lowlands Saxon substrates) and in distinctly Northern German dialects as well, is one of those features that make German dialects sound "northern," though few people are intellectually aware of this detail. Henno, please consider also the possibility that W. Frisian *lost* aspiration under Dutch influence. Perhaps looking at it this way rather than focussing only on acquisition (probably under Saxon influence) should not be dismissed either. However, I am not saying that I necessarily subscribe to this hypothesis. I am currently leaning mostly toward the hypothesis of aspiration spread from Saxon (rather than from "German") in the case of Frisian varieties also. For one thing, aspiration is rare in the far west, and many Dutch dialects have Frisian substrates. Another thing is that aspiration is a common feature in North Saxon, including the dialects of the original Saxon region (today's Holstein, Dithmarschen and parts of Schleswig), and also in Southern Jutish and in Danish. Thus, aspiration may have spread in a fan-shape fashion southward with the spread of Saxon, and this feature did not survive in most of the varieties at the geographic extremes. Also, aspiration is strong in Southern England, the areas of original Saxon colonization in Britain, based on immigration primarily from what are now Holstein and Schleswig. It may have been introduced via Old Saxon and perhaps Old Anglish (originally used north of Saxon). Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 16 00:54:45 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 16:54:45 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.15 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.15 (01) [E] where therefore north of the Benrath line Hello, Helge, what is the Benrath line? Where is it? I know that it has to do with what makes a High German dialect and a Low German dialect, but which side is which? Ben ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 16 16:21:54 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 08:21:54 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.16 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze??uws) ======================================================================= From: Gaidheal Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.15 (02) [E] Feasgar math, a Lowlanders; Ron said: "In Dutch (as in all Romance languages, for example) this aspiration does not occur." My question for you, if you can help me out here, is how does an American learn to stop aspirating? I'm ever looking for ways to improve my pronunciation (though I recognize this is not something that will bar me from being understood in French or any other Romance language). And there's also the problem of recognizing aspiration: I've never been able to when I listen to Indic languages, nor have I been able to accurately pronounce aspirated and unaspirated consonants. M??ran taing, Uilleam ??g mhic Sheumais ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology Feasgar math, a Uilleam! Hopefully, other Lowlanders will have to say something to say about this too. In the meantime, here's my farthing's worth of suggestions. For me it was quite hard to learn not to aspirate. I understand that many people have a much harder time with it than I did. One advantage I had was that my maternal grandmother spoke a non-aspirating German dialect (of an area that used to be a part of Greater Lusatia, now smack on the German-Polish border), which she called "Lower Silesian" (hers being a German dialect with a Sorbian substrate). So I was at least exposed to this feature as a child already. However, my family did not quite understand, believing that she was saying /b/ for /p/, /d/ for /t/ and /g/ for /k/, so they immitated her by saying e.g. _Dasche_ for _Tasche_ 'bag', 'pocket'. I soon figured out that this wasn't really how she pronounced it, because I perceived a difference between, say, her ['de:n@] 'to widen', 'to stretch' versus her ['te:n@] 'to sound' (corresponding to Standard German _dehnen_ ['de:n at n] and _t??nen_ ['t_h??:n at n] respectively). Later, when I became phonologically more aware, read about these things and found out what aspiration was, I practised not to aspirate at the beginning of a word in order to imitate her and other people's dialects. (All right! All right! So I *was* weird as a child already.) I followed instructions I read somewhere. Below is my extended version of that, extended on the basis of my own experience: "Gently place one hand on your throat, and hold the other hand very close in front of your mouth. First, very slowly, say words that begin with /b/, /d/ and /g/; you should feel slight vibration in your throat when those consonants are sounded, and you should feel no breath hitting the hand in front of your mouth. This vibration is "voicing." Now, very slowly, say words beginning with /p/, /t/ and /k/ (avoiding those that begin with /pl/, /pr/, /ps/, /tr/, /kl/ and /kr/); you should feel no vibration in your throat but a puff of air coming from your mouth when those consonants are sounded. This puff of air is "aspiration." Now keep practising these words beginning with /p/, /t/ and /k/ without feeling neither the puff of air and nor vibration in your throat. When you have achieved this you have pronounced plosives without aspiration. Keep practising. Then make this a habit whenever you pronounce the language for which you need this. After a period of consciously avoiding this aspiration, it should happen automatically whenever you speak that language." (In the case of Romance languages, there is the extra challenge of learning to pronounce /d/, /t/, /s/ and /z/ with the tip of your tongue closer to your front teeth than when you speak West Germanic languages -- but that's a different, non-Lowlandic matter.) I hope this will help you, Uilleam. Le meas! Mar sin leibh an dr? sda. Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 16 17:18:59 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 09:18:59 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.16 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Subject: Lexicon Query Our ABC Classical station features a Word of the Day each morning. Yesterday the word was 'clarting' which the expert said the OED explained as 'smearing with dirt' among other things. It also claimed the word was obsolete and probably of Scots origin. It may be obsolete in English but it was still widely used in Midlothian in my day. As a noun ''e wiz a richt clart' (He was very dirty) and as an adjective "Wee Wullie fell in the poand an goat clarty". This caused me to recall another Scots word "manky" which describes even fouler people and things. Can anyone tell me if those words are of Flemish or other non Scots origin ? Regards Tom Tom Mc Rae PSOC Brisbane Australia "The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude, To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang, And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang." >>From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess' ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology Hi, Thomas! I wonder if _clart_ and _clarty_ are related to two Lowlands Saxon (Low German) words: (1) _klarren_ (/klar-/) 'to dig or wallow in dirt', 'to perform dirty work' (Notes: (1) LS /t/ and /d/ frequently alternate, especially following a consonsonant; (2) the sequence /rd/ is likely to change to , (3) intervocalic /-d-/ often changes to or ; (4) there is another _klarren_ meaning 'to scrape', but I assume it is a separate lexeme) (2) _klat_ ) ~ _klatte_ ( ~ ) 'spot (of dirt)', 'blob (of a smeery, sticky substance) (Notes: (1) /rd/ and /rt/ frequently change to
or ; e.g. _swart_ > _swat_ 'black'; (2) there is another _klad_ meaning 'shred', 'scrap', 'rough draft', assumedly a separate word, _Kladde_ in the sense of 'rough draft' having entered German) (3) _klatterig_ ( ~ ) 'sticky', 'matted', 'wet throughout', 'dirty (all over)' (see Note 2.1 above) Final note on this: Since LS does not aspirate non-initial plosives, /-t-/ has in many dialects changed to /-d-/. So, what I am suggesting is that the above are derived from *_klart-_. Lowlanders, I have a couple of etymological questions of my own. In Scots there are the words _tae loup_ (~ _tae lowp_) 'to run' and _tae coup_ (~ _tae cowp_) to buy'. Of course, approaching these from a Lowlands angle, Dutch /loop-/ _lopen_ 'to run' and /koop-/ _kopen_ 'to buy' spring to mind (as do their variants, e.g. LS _loupen_ ~ _l?ypen_ and _koupen_ ~ _k?ypen_). "To loup" also exists in English, though apparently falling into obsolescence in many dialects. _To coup_ was also known in Middle English, apparently also later in some northern dialects. English and Scots dictionaries connect these with Old Norse _hlaupa_ and _kaupa_ respectively, although they do not actually seem to say that these English and Scots words are Viking loans. Could these perhaps be "Flemish" loans? ("Flemish" was used more liberally in early times, may have included most of what is now officially "Dutch.") I am particularly wondering in the case of _tae coup_, since it seems to turn up relatively late, namely in Middle English and Old Scots. Furthermore, these words have their own native cognates: English 'to leap' and Scots _tae leap_ from Old English _hl?apan_ (cf. Old Frisian _(h)l?pa_ ~ _hliapa_, Old Saxon _(a-)hl?pan_, Middle Dutch _l?pen_), and English _cheap_ and Scots _cheap_, cf. Old English _c?apian_ 'to bargain', 'to barter', 'to buy', _c?epan_ ~ _c?pan_ ~ _c?pan_ 'to sell' (cf. Old Saxon _c?p?n_, _c?pian_, Middle Dutch _c?pen_). Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 16 17:54:05 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 09:54:05 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.16 (03) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Beste Laaglanders, Ik heb gisteren een bericht ontvangen dat radioprogramma's in Nederlandse streektaal aankondigt. U vindt het hieronder. Ik heb op het web een schakel naar een alternatief-pagina gevonden: http://www.rtvlosser.nl/index2.asp (onder "Programma's"). Jammer genoeg schijnt geen van de streaming-audio-verbindingen met ACCENT FM te functioneren (rtsp://dumbella.duckstad.zx.nl/live/rolive.rm, http://www.accentfm.nl/rolive.rpm). Dit is betreurenswaardig voor ons die ver vanaf Nederland wonen. Groeten, Reinhard/Ron *** From: Bennijkamp at cs.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 12:13:12 EST Subject: Streektaal Accent FM To: sassisch at yahoo.com Hallo, Ik heb elke maandagavond tussen 20.00 en 22.00 uur bij ACCENT FM een radioprogramma over het dialect en streektalen uit heel Nederland. Het programma heet STREEKTAAL. In dit programma draaien we muziek en cabaret in het dialect of streektaal uit heel Nederland. We besteden ook aandacht aan boeken, gedichten, bijbelverhalen, uitvoeringen, optredens, lezingen, enz. in het dialect. Ook hebben we regelmatig artiesten, bands, schrijvers, enz. in de studio. Accent FM is de Lokale omroep voor Losser en Oldenzaal in Twente. Ook te ontvangen op Internet via www.accentfm.nl en dan rechtsboven klikken op livestream. Hiervoor zijn we steeds op zoek naar muziek (Cd's), cabaret, artiesten, schrijvers, uitgeverijen, platen / cdmaatschappijen en alles wat verder te maken heeft met dialect en streektalen. We zouden deze dan ook eens willen uitnodigen om in de studio te komen of via de telefoon wat te vertellen. Weet u iets dat ons verder kan helpen, wilt u dan zo vriendelijk zijn om dat door te geven aan Bennijkamp at cs.com of 06-12678253. Alvast hartelijke dank voor uw medewerking, Ben Nijkamp Het Egbertink 108 7582 DH Losser 06-12678253 ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 16 18:23:38 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:23:38 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.16 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Gary Taylor Subject: Phonology Hi Ron and All Thanks for your feedback evedryone who's answered. Ron you wrote: "Please note that in Modern North Saxon dialects, aspiration applies only to the beginning of a stressed syllable (i.e., syllable with primary stress, in compounds also to those with secondary stress). This is similar to mainstream American and Australian English. In contrast, it applies in *any* syllable in English dialects of Southern England and in Standard German. The North Saxon aspiration rule applies in Missingsch (German dialects on Lowlands Saxon substrates) and in distinctly Northern German dialects as well, is one of those features that make German dialects sound "northern," though few people are intellectually aware of this detail." On the (very) few occassions that I've been mistaken for a native German speaker - admittededly this usually only happens after I've just said a few words or the other person's drunk or due to some other debilitating factor - people here in Berlin have sometimes mistaken me for a South German or Austrian. This has always perplexed me, and I've always put it down to the way I often pronounce initial s - as [s] and not [z] - which is also more Southern. Maybe it has something to do with my plosives in unstressed syllables. I'm also often however mistaken for Dutch - I usually put this down to vowel quality rather than anything else - and also probably that people can't believe that there's a Brit that speaks another language ;) Cheers Gary ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 16 19:31:30 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 11:31:30 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.16 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Folks, The following are some interesting introductory web presentations about language varieties. Wikipedia Series: English (oddly, missing Welsh and Scottish English as well as Northumbrian): General: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language Old English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_language Middle English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English American English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_English Australian English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_English British English (actually England): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_English Canadian English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_English Carribean English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean_English Indian English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_English Jamaican English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaican_English Liberian English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberian_English Malaysian English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysian_English New Zealand English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_English Singapore English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_English South African English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_English Afrikaans: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaans_language Dutch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_language Frisian: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisian_language Low German: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_German Low Saxon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Saxon_dialect Plautdietsch (Mennonite Low Saxon): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plautdietsch Scots: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language Ullans (Ulster Scots): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Scots_language Tok Pisin (Neo-Melanesian): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tok_Pisin_language The series can also be read in various languages (though not identical in all languages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page Those of you who need some help with linguistic concepts and terminology (without being overwhelmed), here is a start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistics Enjoy! Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 16 23:06:09 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:06:09 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.16 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.MAR.2004 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.16 (01) [E] My question for you, if you can help me out here, is how does an American > learn to stop aspirating? I'm ever looking for ways to improve my > pronunciation (though I recognize this is not something that will bar me > from being understood in French or any other Romance language). And there's > also the problem of recognizing aspiration: I've never been able to when I > listen to Indic languages, nor have I been able to accurately pronounce > aspirated and unaspirated consonants. > > M?ran taing, > Uilleam ?g mhic Sheumais Uilleam, I can help you with this. Think of English and Gaelic words that have more than one consonant in a word. For example, stink, scan, screw, etc. You don't say "sKHrew, s-tink, sKHan," right? I tried my best using only Latin letters to do aspiration. Even the p in the word aspiration is not aspirated, as an s is before it. Try to take a word like screw and remove the initial s. Say "ckrew, sCan." Ben ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 17 15:45:15 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 07:45:15 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.17 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Gaidheal Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.16 (06) [E] Feasgar math, a Lowlanders; Thanks, Ben and Ron. I think I've got the hang of unaspirated /t/ and /k/, though practice is still required. /p/ is a major difficulty though. I'll have to keep working hard at it! Beannachdan, Uilleam ?g mhic Sheumais ---------- From: Theo Homan Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.16 (01) [E] > From: Gaidheal > Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.15 (02) [E] > > Feasgar math, a Lowlanders; > > Ron said: > "In Dutch (as in all Romance languages, for example) > this aspiration does > not occur." > > My question for you, if you can help me out here, is > how does an American > learn to stop aspirating? I'm ever looking for ways > to improve my > pronunciation (though I recognize this is not > something that will bar me > from being understood in French or any other Romance > language). And there's > also the problem of recognizing aspiration: I've > never been able to when I > listen to Indic languages, nor have I been able to > accurately pronounce > aspirated and unaspirated consonants. > > M??ran taing, > Uilleam ?'g mhic Sheumais Hello, Here is my penny: Talking in physics: Aspiration is a proces of over-pressure [is this still called 'effective pressure' in english?] that you let out. In fact the same process as the 'normal' p/t/k, but you let out more air, or: in a shorter time. When the Norwegians made a orthography for Lappish [samek] they didn't write initial p/t/k as p/t/k , but as b/d/g, to avoid that the norwegians would pronounce it with 'strong' aspiration and that would be very non-lappish. So they would not write 'Theo' but 'Deo', just to get the pronunciation a bit right. So maybe it helps for you to change in mind the initial consonants p/t/k in b/d/g; and to pronounce 'Theo' [and so on...], you think 'Deo'. Thank you. vr.gr. Theo Homan ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology It's interesting to find out how different people regard and describe aspiration. Good to know that we got you well on your way to non-aspiration land, Uilleam. Now please go off into your corner and practise, somewhere out of earshot, because I don't want you to get confused by what I'll say now. Theo: > So maybe it helps for you to change in mind the > initial consonants p/t/k in b/d/g; and to pronounce > 'Theo' [and so on...], you think 'Deo'. I'm not so sure if this is so advisable, because we wouldn't *really* want Uilleam and other people with his "problem" to lose their sense of voiceless and voiced plosives being distinctly different, given also that the languages we are talking about require you to observe this difference. > Talking in physics: Aspiration is a proces of > over-pressure [is this still called 'effective > pressure' in english?] that you let out. In fact the > same process as the 'normal' p/t/k, but you let out > more air, or: in a shorter time. This is an interesting explanation. It may be useful when we talk about Germanic languages only. Language-universally, however, I am not so sure if it holds water. There are languages, especially in Southern Asia, in which not only voiceless plosives can be aspirated but voiced ones as well. This is the case in most Indo-Aryan languages (which belong to the Indo-European family as well). Thus, you can get series like m-b-bh-p-ph, n-d-dh-t-th, and ng-g-gh-k-kh. Surely we can't speak about "over-pressure" in the case of voiced plosives. Or can we? Or do you think this is a different phenomenon? Also, consider that in the Min-Chinese language ("Hokkien" or "Fukienese") you have the series m-b-p-ph (where ph is an aspirated /p/). Let me ask speakers of Low Franconian language varieties and of other language varieties that do not use aspiration. How was or is it for you to learn English, German, Scandinavian and other Germanic languages in which aspiration is (usually) required. Is it difficult for you to use aspiration? Do you even bother to learn and use it (given the fact that you can usually be understood without using it)? Regards, Reinhard/Ronh ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 17 22:47:09 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:47:09 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.17 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.17 (01) [E] > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Phonology > > It's interesting to find out how different people regard and describe > aspiration. > > Good to know that we got you well on your way to non-aspiration land, > Uilleam. Now please go off into your corner and practise, somewhere out of > earshot, because I don't want you to get confused by what I'll say now. > > Theo: > > > So maybe it helps for you to change in mind the > > initial consonants p/t/k in b/d/g; and to pronounce > > 'Theo' [and so on...], you think 'Deo'. > > I'm not so sure if this is so advisable, because we wouldn't *really* want > Uilleam and other people with his "problem" to lose their sense of voiceless > and voiced plosives being distinctly different, given also that the > languages we are talking about require you to observe this difference. > > > Talking in physics: Aspiration is a proces of > > over-pressure [is this still called 'effective > > pressure' in english?] that you let out. In fact the > > same process as the 'normal' p/t/k, but you let out > > more air, or: in a shorter time. > > This is an interesting explanation. It may be useful when we talk about > Germanic languages only. Language-universally, however, I am not so sure if > it holds water. There are languages, especially in Southern Asia, in which > not only voiceless plosives can be aspirated but voiced ones as well. This > is the case in most Indo-Aryan languages (which belong to the Indo-European > family as well). Thus, you can get series like m-b-bh-p-ph, n-d-dh-t-th, > and ng-g-gh-k-kh. Surely we can't speak about "over-pressure" in the case > of voiced plosives. Or can we? Or do you think this is a different > phenomenon? Also, consider that in the Min-Chinese language ("Hokkien" or > "Fukienese") you have the series m-b-p-ph (where ph is an aspirated /p/). > > Let me ask speakers of Low Franconian language varieties and of other > language varieties that do not use aspiration. How was or is it for you to > learn English, German, Scandinavian and other Germanic languages in which > aspiration is (usually) required. Is it difficult for you to use > aspiration? Do you even bother to learn and use it (given the fact that you > can usually be understood without using it)? > > Regards, > Reinhard/Ronh I really didn't have this problem, as my ear for languages allowed me to take flight extremely early, but I have sat through enough Spanish and French classes wherein people said words like "petit peu" and it sounded like "pooTeePoo" with oo being pronounced as in book and tee as English pronounces it. It maddened me, as I really had no trouble with the elimination of aspiration from English to the other languages. When one is accustomed to spitting air, it's difficult to be /p/recise! ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 18 01:29:13 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 17:29:13 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.17 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Hondshoven Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.17 (02) [E] In my experience as as a speaker of Dutch (and a Flemish dialect) aspiration does not come automatic even after years of using English. It takes constant awareness so as not to forget the puff of air afet p, t, k. Roger ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology Hi, Roger! Welcome to the vocal minority! I'm delighted to see that you have decided to join us. (It wasn't really that hard now, was it? I wish others would realize that, too.) Roger, I think it would be fair to say that your statement above applies both ways. Aspirating or withholding aspiration feels unnatural, at least in the beginning, if you come from "the other type." I, too, have to careful not lapse into aspiration mode when I pronounce non-aspiration languages. However, once the switch has been made, I usually stay in that mode. The only problem is that this is hard to pull off when you need to switch back and forth between an aspirating language and a non-aspirating language. Also, I find that, when switching from Lowlands Saxon (Low German) to German, I tend to stay with LS aspiration pattern (word-initial only), which gives my German a distinct Missingsch (and thus non-standard) sound, at least for a bit right after the switch. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 18 16:02:39 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:02:39 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.18 (01) [LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: Okee, ik heb ein paar vragen v??r de minsken ??t Gr?nnen en Oostvreisland, mor anner minsken kinnen seker ook helpen. Kin iemand de grootste verschillen tussen t Gr?nnigs en t Oostvreis v??r mie uutleggen? Ik bedoul in leksikon, uutspraak, woordvolgorde ens. Waarom binnen der so v??l Nederlandse woorden in t Oostvreis? Hebben (j)ie biev??rbeelden/biesp?len? Welke subdialekten binnen der in t Oostvreis? en mit welke verschillen? Hebben minsken in Gr?nnen vrouger "un" in plaats van "en" br??kt? Binnen woorden as "nich", "un(d)", "gaar" net as Nedersaksisch as Hoogd??ts? Binnen der olde teksten (van de middel-eiw) uut Gr?nnen en Oostvreisland? Waar kin k dei vinden? Van is t verhaal achter de woord "neit" (seker n leenwoord ??t t Nederlands ~ niet) Groutnis/Gr??tens, Kenneth ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Moyen, Kenneth! Ik wil h?ypen annere l?yd' up dey list geevt Dy dey antern dey Du s?yken dayst. Lykers is hyr man bloots gau eyn reaktschoon vun my. > Hebben minsken in Gr?nnen vrouger "un" in plaats van "en" br??kt? Dat gl?yv' ik nich. Du schulst ny nich vergeten, dat de Neddersassischen (Nedderd?ytschen) dialekten vun Oostvreysland, Emsland, Ollenborg, Gr?nnen un dey Stellingwarven Vreyssche substraten hebt. In d'n val vun Oostvreysland kanst mayst seggen, dat kultuur un identiteyt ook toumeyrst Vreyssch s?nd, tominst meyr Vreyssch as "D?ytsch" or "Sassisch". 'n Annere saak schulst ook ny nich vergeten: D?ytschland is relatyw jung as 'n natschoon, un dat starke "in-d?ytschen" vun dey rebeyden Oostvreysland un Emsland is gaar nich so old. Touv?r, un deylwys' ook nu noch, keyken dey Oostvreysen un Emslanders mit eyn oog' na 't west, na j?m eer navers g?ntsyds dey grenss. Daarwegen vindst mang j?m neyere "Hollandsche" leenw?yrd', vun dey sey dey meyrsten sachs uut Gr?nnen kregen hebt, t.b. "vyts" (annerwegens "(vaar-)rad"). Kan wesen dat Oostvreyssch _neyt_ un _en_ Vreyssche substraten touh?yrt. Westerlauwersch Vreyssch het _net_ un _en_. Saterlandsch het _nit_ un _on_, man my d?cht, _on_ is Sassisch. V?r "nich" het Oldvreyssch _nout_ un _nouwet_, Oldnedderlandsch _niewiht_, Oldsassisch _neowiht_, _niowiht_, _nieht_ u.s.w. Daarwegen kanst seggen, dat "neyt" un "nich" nich partu as vr?md an-keken warden schullen. Villicht is dat 'n saak vun "regional features". Oldvreyssch har al _anda_, _ande_, _and_, _an_, _end_ un _en_. Oldsassisch har _ant_. Dat bed?ydt, dat _en_ ook simplemang Sassisch wesen kan. Ney-Neddersassisch _un_ (< Middelsassisch _unde_, _und_, _unt_ un _un_) k?mt na myn verscheyl vun Middel-("Hoog")D?ytsch _unde_, _und_ un _unt_. Gr?ytens un kumpelmenten, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 18 16:19:31 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:19:31 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.18 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: rick denkers Subject: Sidde Dear Low landers, Where i live (South east Drenthe in the netherlands) Grunnegs is widely spoken. There is one expression which really intrigues me and that is: "Most du ein siddel an der topmast hebb'n ?" Its the word "siddel" which i cannot place. In Dutch there is no word which comes close to this. Can anyone tell me something about its origin? With Kind Regards, Rick Denkers ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Hoi, Rick! What does that saying mean? To me it sounds like "Do you *have* to have a seat at the topmast?" Might it mean something like "Do you *have* to be in control?" _Siddel_ reminds me of _sittels_ ~ _siddels_ 'place to seat' (also 'peripheral or occasional room in an old-time farm house', so perhaps originally "sitting room") in other Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects. Probably, this word is derived from /sit-/ _sitten_ 'to sit'. I wonder if it is related to German _Sessel_ 'armchair', 'easy chair'. Curious, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 18 16:23:02 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:23:02 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.18 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Philip Ernest Barber Subject: unaspirated--phonology I have to report that as a native of Houston, Texas, I can attest that it is not only Dutch and certain speakers of L-S who use unaspirated final plosives. I remember being exhorted in elementary school (some sixty years ago)that we had to make "little puffs of air" after final p's, t's, and k's. That's pretty good evidence that the local English variant (which was Upland or Appalachian South rather than Tidewater South) had no final aspirants. Having spent most of the rest of my life in the NE US I now speak fairly standard American, but I find that whenever I visit Texas again, I revert (at least in non-"elevated" contexts) to my native habits. I do periodically amaze (and disgust!) my Romanian-native speaker Minnesotan wife and my New England-raised children by using that native Houstonian and not aspirating final plosives. They can't imagine how I do that, tho I usually point out that it is a matter of my omitting something rather than adding something. And, yes, "Houston" is pronounced, certainly by people of my generation, "Hyooston" (tho the palatizing is rather weak) so that it almost sounds as if the intial sound is an "ich-Laut." The final t is not a d, however, and the final vowel is a short i rather than a schwa. Texans probably differ on that, but they also differ in how they pronounce "Texas," whether "Tex-iz" or "Tex-uhz." ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 18 16:30:08 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:30:08 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.18 (04) [LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.18 (01) [LS] Bedankt Reinhard, > > Hebben minsken in Gr?nnen vrouger "un" in plaats van "en" br??kt? > > Dat gl?yv' ik nich. Tja, k weit neit. Ik har "und" in ein Gr?nniger tekst ??t rundt 1250 sein - daarom he'k de vraag steld. > Oldvreyssch har al _anda_, _ande_, _and_, _an_, _end_ un _en_. Oldsassisch > har _ant_. Dat bed?ydt, dat _en_ ook simplemang Sassisch wesen kan. ant as in "ant zeventig => tseventig => seventig; ant achtig => tachtig"? k Heb "ende" in Heliant sein. > Ney-Neddersassisch _un_ (< Middelsassisch _unde_, _und_, _unt_ un _un_) k?mt > na myn verscheyl vun Middel-("Hoog")D?ytsch _unde_, _und_ un _unt_. Kenneth ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 18 20:15:32 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:15:32 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.18 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Brooks, Mark Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.18 (03) [E] Philip wrote: "And, yes, "Houston" is pronounced, certainly by people of my generation, "Hyooston" (tho the palatizing is rather weak) so that it almost sounds as if the intial sound is an "ich-Laut." The final t is not a d, however, and the final vowel is a short i rather than a schwa." I'm a Texin (misspelling intended) who grew up in Dallas and have lived in Austin for 25 years. My wife, who grew up in Dallas too, has a sister and brother-in-law who live in Houston. It never fails that I always notice when a native Yoostonian pronounces their city. Nowadays, there's no /h/ sound at all on the beginning of the word. Yes, the /t/ is pronounce with some without voicing, and the final vowel is a short i. Now, as for the rest of us Texins, we call the Bayou City "Hyoostin". We definitely have aspiration at the beginning, in fact, that's what makes the native Yoostonian so noticeable when it's missing. A little side note: Whenever I have been traveling in Mexico and tell someone that I'm from Austin, they always think I'm saying Houston. The "au" from Austin and the "oo" from Houston do not sound different to Mexicans. Now, if I pronounce Austin Spanish-like, i.e., rhymes with "house", they always understand which city I mean. Mark ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 18 20:46:04 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:46:04 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.03.18 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.MAR.2004 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.18 (02) [E] Regarding "Moust (du) ein siddel an der topmast hebben" Tja, It is quite normal to make inlaut t's to d's in Gr?nnigs, so Reinhard might be right: beedje ~ beetje tanne ~ tande ~ tante Groutnis, Kenneth ---------- From: rick denkers Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.18 (02) [E] Moin, >To me it sounds like "Do you *have* to have a seat at the topmast?" Might >it mean something like "Do you *have* to be in control?" >_Siddel_ reminds me of _sittels_ ~ _siddels_ 'place to seat' (also >'peripheral or occasional room in an old-time farm house', so perhaps >originally "sitting room") in other Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects. >Probably, this word is derived from /sit-/ _sitten_ 'to sit'. I wonder if >it is related to German _Sessel_ 'armchair', 'easy chair'. It is used as in dutch : "Moet je een draai om je oren?" The whole expression is intriguing. The word topmast gives me the idea that the expression is nautical in its origin. But what on earth is a siddel then? And, if it is a nautical expression, then it is by itself a rarity since veenkoloniaal grunnegs does not have much nautical terms or expressions AFAIK. Haije, Rick Denkers ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Moyen! Rick wrote about Groningen Lowlands Saxon: > "Most du ein siddel an der topmast hebb'n ?" And I suggested that _siddel_ may be related to _sittels_ in Lowlands Saxon of Germany, meaning 'place to sit' (not "place to seat" as I had mistakenly written). Rick then explained: > It is used as in dutch : "Moet je een draai om je oren?" So, this would be "Do you need of a box on the ear?" (old-fashioned British), or "Do you need a clip around the ear?" or even "Do you want to get smacked around?" Rick wonders: > The whole expression is intriguing. The word topmast gives me the idea > that the expression is nautical in its origin. But what on earth is a siddel > then? > > And, if it is a nautical expression, then it is by itself a rarity since > veenkoloniaal grunnegs does not have much nautical terms or expressions AFAIK. Well, Rick, idiomatic expressions, like vocabulary, tend to be passed from variety to variety. Oftentimes they go very far afield, and a recipient variety may preserve an expression while the original donor variety loses it. That in itself is not terribly mysterious to me. An expression may have made a lot of sense in its place of origin (here assumedly a nautical sociolect), but, having been frozen as just an idiomatic expression, most people don't think about its origin (unless they are subscribed to Lowlands-L). Here are my theories: (1) Being seated or placed at the topmast used to be some sort of corporal punishment on sailing vessels. (Does anyone know about such?) (2) Being perched up on the topmast (which would be very high up) you get whipped by the wind, or "get clips around the ears" from the wind. (This happens to you just standing on a dike in Northern Friesland on a normal day ...) Therefore, when working with sails, the topmast position may have been the least favored, and being smacked around the face came to be rendered as "having a topmast position." It could even be a combination of both of the above. OK, OK, so what if I have a vivid imagination? But doesn't this sound at least halfway plausible? Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 18 22:14:08 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:14:08 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.18 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.MAR.2004 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Philip Ernest Barber Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.18 (05) [E] Dear Mark, If the pronounciation of Houston has lost its initial aspiration since I grew up and graduated from college there,this degeneration is entirely due to the influx of a million or two outlanders, many from (shudder) north of the Mason-Dixon line. Television may be also responsible, as nowadays all teenaged girls, even in Houston, talk like someone from "Buffy the Vampire Slayer." This is not progress. I'm afraid that I am both a prescriptivist and a nativist. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 18 22:17:38 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:17:38 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.18 (08) [LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.MAR.2004 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Jan Strunk Subject: Syntax Leive L?e, auk in't Westf??sche bruuk de l?e in S?den "nit" un nich "nich". Ek glaif all in'n S?den fan Baukum (Bochum) hiett se fr?ger "nit" seggt. Beste gr?ten! Jan Strunk jstrunk at stanford.edu ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Jan, L?yd', In 'n barg S?yd-D?ytsche dialekten segt sey ook "nit" un "net". Dat het amend gaar niks tou beseggen. Gr?ytens, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 18 22:20:01 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:20:01 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.03.18 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.MAR.2004 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Jan Strunk Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.18 (02) [E] Leive L?e, Rick schreev: > "Most du ein siddel an der topmast hebb'n ?" Its the word "siddel" which i > cannot > place. In Dutch there is no word which comes close to this. Can anyone > tell me something about its origin? Or kunn dat villicht dat wuord "seddel" (westf??lsch si?ddel) siin. Dat w?rd woll en leenwuord ut't haugd??tsche siin: Zettel (small piece of paper). Ek wiet nich af dat m?glik es. Ek verstaoh aover auk nich wat dat k?ersel bed?den sall. Kumpelmente! Jan Strunk jstrunk at stanford.edu ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.03.18 (06) [E] Ron wrote the following to explain the expression "Most du ein siddel an der topmast hebb'n ?": > Here are my theories: > > (1) Being seated or placed at the topmast used to be some sort of corporal > punishment on sailing vessels. (Does anyone know about such?) > > (2) Being perched up on the topmast (which would be very high up) you get > whipped by the wind, or "get clips around the ears" from the wind. (This > happens to you just standing on a dike in Northern Friesland on a normal day > ...) Therefore, when working with sails, the topmast position may have been > the least favored, and being smacked around the face came to be rendered as > "having a topmast position." > > It could even be a combination of both of the above. I beg to disagree; I think there's a much easier explanation. The "topmast" is probably your head or the top thereof. And a "siddel" must be something related to what I know, unfortunately, as a "Backs" in Lower Saxon (as in "Willste'n Backs?", which is also an inquiry as to whether the person asked would like to have his face come into painful contact with the asker's hand). Gabriele Kahn ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 18 22:43:25 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:43:25 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.18 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.MAR.2004 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language survival Below is a newspaper article that may be of interest to many of you. While I agree with what is being said about Siberian and North American languages, it needs to be stressed that this occurs *everywhere*, and not only with "exotic" languages but also with European and European-based languages that happened to end up considered second- or third-rate, relegated to what almost amounts the underground. In other words, it applies to Lowlands varieties also. Regards, Reinhard/Ron *** The Seattle Times, Thursday, March 18, 2004, p. A6: LINGUISTS IN RACE TO SAVE LANGUAGES THEIR TASK is to record and document endangered tongues and to develop written forms to help preserve them. by earl lane Newsday WASHINGTON ? In half a dozen fishing villages in a remote part of central Siberia, the Middle Chulym people are losing their language, one of hundreds of tongues likely to vanish around the world during the next half century. Among the Middle Chulym, who survive by ancestral ways of hunting, gathering and fishing, only about 40 of 426 people continue to speak the native language, according to K. David Harrison, a linguist at Swarthmore College who traveled to the region last year to document two Turkic languages in imminent danger. He found that no one younger than 52 can speak Middle Chulym fluently, and the rest speak only Russian. "Each language that vanishes without being documented leaves an enormous gap in our understanding of some of the many complex structures the human mind is capable of producing," Harrison said. Number systems, grammatical structures and classification systems can be lost, along with knowledge about medicinal plants, animal behavior, weather signs and hunting techniques. Siberian language in peril Another Siberian language called Tofa also is threatened, with 35 of 600 in the community able to speak it. When such native languages die, Harrison said recently at a meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, villagers lose an oral history as well as detailed knowledge of the local environment. The Tofa people are reindeer herders, Harrison said, and their language has special ways of describing reindeer by sex, age, fertility, color and ease of riding. Such descriptions do not translate easily into Russian, he said. Human languages are vanishing as we speak,? said Harrison, who argues that the rate of loss is every bit as disturbing as the extinction of animal species. Stephen Anderson, a Yale University linguist, estimates that "probably 40 percent or more of the world's languages will cease to be spoken within the next 50 to 100 years." Ethnologue, a database maintained by SIL International of Dallas, lists 6,809 languages worldwide. That number is subject to debate, say Anderson and others. Laurence Horn, a Yale linguist, said the number of languages sometimes is influenced by politics as much as linguistics. Cantonese and Mandarin are distinct languages, he said, but the Chinese government prefers to consider them dialects. Horn cited the oft-quoted comment, attributed to Yiddish linguist Max Weinreich, that a language is "a dialect with an army and a navy." Harrison said languages begin to decline when native speakers view them as less prestigious or not accepted as widely as the dominant language in a region. That has been the case with Middle Chulym, Harrison said. Native languages Of the indigenous languages of North America, Anderson said, only eight have as many as 10,000 speakers. Navajo is the largest, with about 160,000 speakers, he said. But many young Navajos no longer are learning the language as their first tongue, he said. "Once young children don't learn it as a first language," Anderson said, "then it has only as many years to go as the life expectancy of its current native speakers." Language-maintenance efforts are under way in American Indian communities, he said, but studying the language for a few hours a week in school is not sufficient to rescue a threatened language. Some elementaries, including one on the Mohawk reservation in northern New York, teach the traditional tongue as a first language in immersion programs aimed at preserving language and culture. The loss of languages is not inevitable, Anderson said. Linguists such as Harrison have been trying to record and document endangered languages, help foster interest in them among local populations and develop written forms to help preserve them. Whenever a language dies, Anderson said, "it's a human tragedy and one of the few tragedies that linguists can do something about." ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 19 01:19:33 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:19:33 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.18 (11) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.MAR.2004 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Jan Strunk Subject: 15.918, Books: Translation: Findlay (Ed.) Hello, I thought this might be interesting for some of you. Its a book announcement from the Linguist List ----- Original Message ----- From: "LINGUIST List" > 1) > Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:54:45 -0500 (EST) > From: marketing at multilingual-matters.com > Subject: Frae Ither Tongues: Findlay (Ed.) > > -------------------------------- Message 1 ------------------------------- > > Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:54:45 -0500 (EST) > From: marketing at multilingual-matters.com > Subject: Frae Ither Tongues: Findlay (Ed.) > > Title: Frae Ither Tongues > Subtitle: Essays on Modern Translation into Scots > Series Title: Topics in Translation > > Publication Year: 2004 > Publisher: Multilingual Matters > http://www.multilingual-matters.com/ > > Book URL: http://www.multilingual-matters.com/multi/display.asp?isb=1853597007 > > Editor: Bill Findlay, Queen Margaret University College, Edinburgh > > Hardback: ISBN: 1853597007, Pages: 272, Price: U.S. $ 79.95 > > Abstract: > > Not only has the period of the past seventy years been the richest for > literary translation into Scots since the sixteenth century, but it > can claim to be the richest in terms of the quantity of work and the > range of languages and genres translated. This collection of essays, > by translators and critics, represents the first extended analysis of > the nature and practice of modern translation into Scots. > > Lingfield(s): Translation > > Written In: English (Language Code: ENG) > > See this book announcement on our website: > http://linguistlist.org/get-book.html?BookID=9454. Best regards, Jan Strunk jstrunk at stanford.edu ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Thanks a million, Jan! Ay, that leuks like a braw beuk. It's needit an aw. An oor ane Brian Holton is a pairt o the project! We need a book like this for Lowlands Saxon (Low German) as well, folks. Bit 39.96 UK poond or 63.96 US dollar ... *discoont* ... Fegs! Gey an dear! Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 19 01:22:49 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:22:49 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.18 (12) [LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.MAR.2004 (12) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Jan Strunk Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.18 (08) [LS] Hallo, Ron schreev: > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Etymology > > Jan, L?yd', > > In 'n barg S?yd-D?ytsche dialekten segt sey ook "nit" un "net". Dat het > amend gaar niks tou beseggen. Dat stimmt. Ek wull blots seggen dat dat een heelen bi?rg neddersassische dialekten gifft, wo me "nit" of "neit" seggt. Dat k?mp man bloots in't Rundfunk-Platt wat j? op dat nordneddersassische opbugget nich rut. Et is aower auk klaor, dat me bi'n spraokwannel heel eenfak fan "niwiht", usw. nao "nit" or auk "nich(t)" hen komen kann. Dat w??r maol interessant te wieten wu dat fr?ger in't middelneddersassische was. Ek main in wecke rebeiten se "nicht" bruken un in wecke "neet". Apatt nu es dat j? auk sau dat de spraoke ut L?bbeck tau de tied en grautet v?rbild was un j? nich sau schriewen worrn es wu de l?e k?erden. Beste gr?ten! Jan Strunk jstrunk at stanford.edu ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 19 15:19:39 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:19:39 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.18 (01) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Brian Holton Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.18 (11) [E/S] > From: Jan Strunk > Subject: 15.918, Books: Translation: Findlay (Ed.) > > Hello, > > I thought this might be interesting for some of you. Its a book announcement > from the Linguist List > > Title: Frae Ither Tongues > > Subtitle: Essays on Modern Translation into Scots > > Series Title: Topics in Translation > > Publication Year: 2004 > > Publisher: Multilingual Matters > > http://www.multilingual-matters.com/ > > > > Book URL: > http://www.multilingual-matters.com/multi/display.asp?isb=1853597007 > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Resources > > Thanks a million, Jan! > > Ay, that leuks like a braw beuk. It's needit an aw. An oor ane Brian > Holton is a pairt o the project! > > We need a book like this for Lowlands Saxon (Low German) as well, folks. > > Bit 39.96 UK poond or 63.96 US dollar ... *discoont* ... Fegs! Gey an > dear! > > Reinhard/Ron ay, ye're no wrang, Ron, it's a gey dear wee buikie: A'm black affrontit at the cost o't. still an on, A'm pleased ti see it oot at alang an last. yours aye brian ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 19 15:22:12 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:22:12 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.18 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mike Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.18 (10) [E] Moin Lowlanders, Ron wrote: > Below is a newspaper article that may be of interest to many of you. > While I agree with what is being said about Siberian and North American > languages, it needs to be stressed that this occurs *everywhere*, and not >... > The Seattle Times, Thursday, March 18, 2004, p. A6: > > LINGUISTS IN RACE TO SAVE LANGUAGES I 100% agree with you, Ron. For me, the key sentence in this article is: > them dialects. Horn cited the oft-quoted comment, attributed to Yiddish > linguist Max Weinreich, that a language is "a dialect with an army and a > navy." And then the quote continues: > Harrison said languages begin to decline when native speakers view them as > less prestigious or not accepted as widely as the dominant language in a Why would speakers do that? To me clearly, because there is no army and navy, literally or figuratively (status), to back up the OFFICIAL status of a language. Wouldn?t you agree, Ron, Lowlanders, that no language that doesn?t have EQUAL official status, PRIMARY status in at least some important area of public life (such as primary education and/or the judicial system and/or mass media...you name it), has NO long-term chance of survival. Look at history, look at the world of today... If that is a valid conclusion, then it seems to me that any person not only interested in studying language-related topics (99.9% of Lowlanders I presume) but pretending to be engaged in activities of language survival (?%), must involve her/himself in a struggle to obtain THAT status for the language. If one excludes the option of military struggle, then this means political struggle. Who challenges me on that? Greetings to all, Mike Wintzer ---------- From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.18 (10) [E] Ron, What needs to be pointed out is that languages don't 'die' in the same way people do, but they fall dormant. It is relatively easy to 'resurrect' a language, particularly if there is an unbroken line of second language speakers (e.g., Hebrew, Cornish, Manx). There are a great many people, including (apparently) the author of the article you cite, who take a Social Darwinist, survival-of-the-fittest, doomed-to-die-because-they-can't-fit-the-modern-world attitude. Every language that is spoken is part of the 'modern world'. These people, and I dare say a majority of the wider populace, believe that some languages, such as those of Siberia or Native America (not to mention Australian Aboriginal languages or many in Europe) are 'on their way out' and all we can do is 'smooth their deathbed pillow'. Ultimately, if a language does drop out of everyday use and become dormant, it can be raised up anew at any time, providing has been recorded sufficiently. Criost?ir. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 19 16:05:16 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 08:05:16 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymologyl" 2004.03.18 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Peter Snepvangers Subject: Etymology Rick Denkers wrote: "Most du ein siddel an der topmast hebb'n ?" Its the word "siddel" which i cannot place. In Dutch there is no word which comes close to this. Can anyone tell me something about its origin? Ron Hahn wrote: To me it sounds like "Do you *have* to have a seat at the topmast?" Might it mean something like "Do you *have* to be in control?" Hello Ron and Rick, could the word siddel somehow refer to the crows nest on the top mast of sailing ships? The following link explains meaning of crows nest. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/c_traveller/define.htm scroll down to crows nest. Cheers Peter Snepvangers snepvangers at optushome.com.au ---------- From: Peter Snepvangers Subject: Etymology Rick Denkers wrote: "Most du ein siddel an der topmast hebb'n ?" Its the word "siddel" which i cannot place. In Dutch there is no word which comes close to this. Can anyone tell me something about its origin? Hello Rick and Lowlanders, I came across a Dutch word "sidderrog" meaning torpedo, electric ray. This is the only nautical term I have found with any similarity to siddel. The following is a link to the site I used: http://lookwayup.com/free/dict.htm Cheers Peter Snepvangers snepvangers at optushome.com.au ---------- From: rick denkers Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.03.18 (09) [E] Ls, After a pleasant evening trying to discover the origin of this expression i can draw the following preliminary conclusions: - The word topmast appears not to be dutch. This was quite suprising to me since it sounds as dutch as dutch can be. It turned out to be a nautical word. And its seems to be widely used in English and American english. Definition: \Top"mast\, n. (Naut.) The second mast, or that which is next above the lower mast, and below the topgallant mast. The dutch word for topmast is steng. - The word "siddel" is not known in dutch either. It does exist in old English however. It means: "from the wide valley". Therefore i cannot see the link between this word and "topmast". Therefore i think that the conclusion drawn by Reinhard and Kenneth Rohde Christiansen might be right. Quoting Reinhard: "And I suggested that _siddel_ may be related to _sittels_ in Lowlands Saxon of Germany, meaning 'place to sit' (not "place to seat" as I had mistakenly written)." Quoting Kenneth: "Tja, It is quite normal to make inlaut t's to d's in Grunnigs, so Reinhard might be right: beedje ~ beetje tanne ~ tande ~ tante" So i think that it was used as:" Shall i give you the most dangerous/unpleasant job on board this ship ?" Gabriele Kahn: >I beg to disagree; I think there's a much easier explanation. The "topmast" >is probably your head or the top thereof. Yes, that was my first idea too. The problem is that in every other sentence they use the word "kobbe". So this would be the only expression where "topmast" is used as "kobbe". The people here are very "functional" in their language. So it didnt sound logical to me. >And a "siddel" must be something >related to what I know, unfortunately, as a "Backs" in Lower Saxon (as in >"Willste'n Backs?" Where i come from we say : Za'k je es veur de keub boeksen? In Grunnegs they use: Most klapp'n hebb'n?, or "Most du ein siddel an der topmast hebb'n? " It may sound confusing that i use "they". It is simple to explain. I come from a other part of the (east) netherlands, but i live in S-E Drenthe. And fascinated by that beautiful language which is spoken here. Regards, Rick Denkers ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Peter, Rich, Folks, English "topmast" is _topmast_ () or _marssteng_ ( < _marstenge_ ) in Lowlands Saxon (Low German) of coastal Germany. Like most nautical terms, they have been imported into German: _Toppmast_ and _Marstenge_ respectively. I am not sure if _topmast_ is an English loan or a native word, or if English borrowed it from Middle Saxon. It might be native given that both components can be native words: _top_ () '(mountain ..., tree ..., etc.) top', and _mast_ () 'mast'. Incidentally, Lowlands Saxon (Low German) also has _topsayl_ () ~ _topsegel_ () 'topsail'. _Steng_ (< _stenge_, feminine gender) must be related to (diminutive) _stengel_ 'stalk' (of a plant). Specifically, _steng_ denotes the upper part of any mast (cf. Dutch _steng_, English _st?ng_ > "stang," German _Stange_). _Mars_, about whose etymology I know nothing, denotes the said "crows nest." (This one was not imported into Standard German, where it is _Mastkorb_, literally "mast basket," though you sometimes find it in stories told in coastal North German dialects.) So a _marssteng_ (one of the words for 'topmast') is the top of a mast (_steng_) on which the crows nest (_mars_) is located. I still know nothing about _siddel_ but strongly suspect it to be related to LS _sittels_ 'place to sit', though it could also be a variant of _(t)settel_ ~ _(t)seddel_ ~ _(t)sittel_ ~ _(t)siddel_ ( ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ) 'piece of paper', 'note', 'notice', 'bill', in reference to a work assignment order perhaps. So, yes, I tend to go along with you, Rick, in assuming that it refers to a punitive work assignmen: a position at or on top of the topmast. However, as far as I am concerned, the jury is still out as to whether this was because the job was dangerous or if it was because it was the highest position in which your face gets whipped by the wind, the latter of which would explain its use in connection with 'slap in the face'. Well, it could really be a combination of both, couldn't it? Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 19 17:48:07 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:48:07 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2004.03.18 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze??uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Holidays Folks, Sorry I forgot to wish you a good St. Patrick's Day this week. To our Persian, Bah??????? and Zoroastrian friends ???? ?????? ?????????? (Happy New Year) on Sunday, March 21! For the same day, Vernal Equinox in the Northern Hemisphere and Autumn Equinox in the Southern Hemisphere, Happy Alban Eiler, Eostre or Ostara, and Happy Alban Elued or Mabon to all that celebrate these. Furthermore, again for this important day, Happy Syunbun no Hi (???????? ???) to our Shinto friends, and Happy Hola Mohalla (???????????? ??????????????????) to our Sikh friends! Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 19 17:52:35 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:52:35 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.18 (05) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Etymologyl" 2004.03.18 (03) [E] The whole discussion about the "siddel van de topmast" sooo reminds me of the first book I ever read in Dutch: "De scheepsjongens van Bontekoe" (Bontekoe's Cabin Boys) by Willem Ysbrantsz. One of my favourite parts is where the boy who accidentally stayed on the ship when it set sail because he had fallen asleep, but would much rather be a brewer's apprentice, gets violently seasick and the old hands on deck tell him that he has to find "het zeeziekvrije plekkie", i.e. the one seasick-free spot that they say exists on a ship. Then somebody explains to him that all the horrible bouncing up and down and swaying to and fro obviously comes from the waves - so the spot he's looking for must be as far as possible from those nasty waves - and that would be the crow's nest at the very top of the mast! Let it suffice to say that the boy is very gullible and the result isn't pretty. :-) ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Etymologyl" 2004.03.18 (03) [E] Oops, sorry, forgot my name: [Gabriele Kahn] ---------- From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: LL-L "Etymologyl" 2004.03.18 (03) [E] > It turned out to be a nautical word. And its seems to be widely used in > English and American english. > > Definition: \Top"mast\, n. (Naut.) > The second mast, or that which is next above the lower mast, > and below the topgallant mast. It is used in Danish as well. We also have the word "saddel" which is found in other languages as well. It is the chair you use on a horse. > Where i come from we say : Za'k je es veur de keub boeksen? > In Grunnegs they use: Most klapp'n hebb'n?, or "Most du ein siddel an der > topmast hebb'n? " > > It may sound confusing that i use "they". It is simple to explain. I come > from a other part of the (east) netherlands, but i live in S-E Drenthe. > And fascinated by that beautiful language which is spoken here. Ik hold ook stim van dei Noordnedersaksische dialekt van Gr?nnen, Noordenveld en Oostvreisland. Groutnis, Kenneth ---------- From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: LL-L "Etymologyl" 2004.03.18 (03) [E] There is a book with called something like Grunneger spreekwoorden, which might be of some help. I seem to recall that it is written by Jan J. Boer - but I might be wrong. Cheers, Kenneth ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 19 19:58:59 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:58:59 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.18 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.MAR.2004 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Gary Taylor Subject: Etymology Hi all sorry - I haven't really been following the 'siddel/topmast' discussion, but I just looked in my Gronings/Nederlands dictionary and found 'siddeltop' which means Dutch 'tol', so English 'toll' - sorry if I'm repeating what's already been said - don't know if this bears any relevance to anything... Gary ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 19 23:55:44 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:55:44 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.18 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.MAR.2004 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mike Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.18 (11) [E/S] Ron wrote: > We need a book like this for Lowlands Saxon (Low German) as well, folks. Agreed!!! Better yet, for all languages we pretend to defend, we need a multi-volume encyclopedia. All languages that have army and navy, also have this (Encyclop?dia Britannica, Larousse, Brockhaus...) Tsch??, Mike Wintzer ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sat Mar 20 01:21:16 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:21:16 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.18 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.MAR.2004 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mike Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.18 (02) [E] Criost?ir wrote: > > Ultimately, if a language does drop out of everyday use and become dormant, > it can be raised up anew at any time, providing has been recorded > sufficiently. > With all respect, Criost?ir, I suspect that this is wishful thinking. In the best of cases what you can reconstruct is the skeleton of a language because that is what you can record, but the gist, the flavor, the perfume of a language will be gone forever with its last speaker. What you resurrect is something else. It shares vocabulary and grammar with its ancester, but not the soul. Tsch??, Mike Wintzer ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Hi, Cr?ost?ir, Mike, Lowlanders! I'll chime in here, if you don't mind, perhaps in a moderating or mitigating capicity (or so I'd like to think). Perhaps neither of you is totally right or wrong, if there *is* a right and a wrong here. Or, better to say, both of you make valid points. Cr?ost?ir, you wisely added the phrases "particularly if there is an unbroken line of second language speakers (e.g., Hebrew, Cornish, Manx)" and "providing has been recorded sufficiently." Unfortunately, both of these things are easier said than done, given that even second-language proficiency has been discouraged traditionally (at least by way of withholding support), and given also that most of the recording activities, or at least those that are of use to the average person, relied mostly on private initiatives and private funding, many a project fizzling out on a publisher's desk. However, this is a different matter, not to distract from your point. Mike, in my opinion, you too made a valid point in saying that resurrected languages are not the same as the originals on which they are supposed to be based. Even though you did not say so with so many words, I add to this that a resurrected language may be a fairly far cry from the original even if there *is* a lot of recording. Let me play the devil's advocate and ask, "So what?" Assuming that, for whatever reason, a given population embraces the idea of resurrecting and reviving its ancestral language, should it really be so important that the exact "flavor" of the "original" is there? Would the absence of this "flavor" or the presence of a new "flavor" make this revived language worthless or less worthy? Probably only if reviving the very same "flavor" were the main purpose of the exercise. I can envisage no scenario in the real world in which this would be the case. Usually the main purpose of reviving languages is to create links with one's ancestral heritage, both symbolically and practically (e.g., to preserve and continue a literary tradition and to assure easier access to ancestral literature). I would like to go even one step farther by saying that putting enormous effort into reviving what some people consider to be the ancestral "flavor" would be likely to lead to overly artificial creations. Surely the purpose of the exercise should not be to go back in time but to reclaim a part of one's heritage and make it fit today's and tomorrow's needs. Inevitably, the history of suppression, oppression, decline and demise will have left their traces in this supposedly resuscitated "construct." And well they should, as far as I am concerned. Why *would* you want to try to pretend that nothing happened between then and now? Suppression, oppression, decline and demise are parts of that history, as are "foreign" domination and influences. German and Dutch domination on Lowlands Saxon (Low German) are a fact and can and should not be magically washed away, nor should French and Standard Dutch influences on Flemish and Zeelandic, English influences on Scots, etc. They are parts of those histories. Take the case of Hebrew, which Cr?ost?ir mentioned. In many ways, Modern Hebrew is a far cry from biblical and liturgical Hebrew, even from scholar-specific conversational Hebrew used occasionally in international settings in pre-modern times. So what? Does it make it worthless and useless? I don't think so, and I dare say neither do millions of speakers (including many native speakers) in Israel and around the world. Modern Hebrew is perfectly well adapted to and suited for all spheres of life here and now. At the same time there is a strong, albeit it not perfect, link between it and the ancestral versions. What more would you want? Today's Israelis and other Hebrew speakers are aware and justly proud of their ancient heritage. But I hardly think that it worries a lot among them that their version does not have the same "flavor" as biblical and liturgical Hebrew. Centuries of diaspora all over the world have left their marks on Modern Hebrew, or, better to say, are imported flavors, which should come as a surprise to no one. After all, the act of resurrection was relatively brief. The processes of reviving and reinvigorating that followed resurrection were left in large part to the actual users of the language and thus took place in a fairly "organic" sort of way, planned neologisms often being abandoned in favor of "organically grown" ones. Hence, there is a multitude of influences from the languages of the world. That's the reality and the history of its speakers and their ancestors. Why should it *not* be there to add new flavors and perfumes? (Sure, for various reasons I personally would have liked Modern Hebrew to have been influenced more by Arabic, its Semitic sister language, than by North European languages. However, predominance of Eurocentrist and "anti-Orientalist" sentiments and powers are a reality, besides the fact that millions of European immigrants simply would have had a very hard time acquiring the true Semitic pronunciation that Ancient Hebrew had. However, this is my personal feelings and should not be seen as subtracting from my argument.) Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sat Mar 20 01:23:44 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:23:44 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.18 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.MAR.2004 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Jan Strunk Subject: Syntax Dear Lowlands, two weeks ago I asked for some Low Saxon data. Thanks for all the responses: Henno Brandsma, Reupen Epp, Reinhard Hahn, Friedrich W. Neumann, Helge Tietz, Rudi Vari. I've now completed the term paper I was writing on the Low Saxon prenominal possessive construction which involves a possessive pronoun between the possessor and the possessum, e.g. "Helge sien Huus" (Helge's house). And incorporated some of the data from the responses. I invite everyone who is interest to take a look at the paper at: http://www.linguistics.rub.de/~strunk/TheMissingLink.pdf or http://www.stanford.edu/~jstrunk/TheMissingLink.pdf The first part gives an overview of the relevant data in Low Saxon. The second part is a formal syntactic analysis of the construction in the framework of Lexical Functional Grammar (LFG), see http://www.essex.ac.uk/linguistics/LFG/ I'll probably even write my master's thesis about possessive constructions in Low Saxon. So don't be surprised if I come back with some more requests for data... I hope I don't annoy anyone... By the way, I've put a thank you note into my paper and I give my informants' names. If anyone of those that contributed data does not want his name to be in my paper on the internet and maybe later in my MA thesis or other publications, please tell me.... For those of you who don't have the time or the energy to read the paper but who are interested in the data, I'll give a short summary below. But please also see www.stanford.edu/~jstrunk/lowlands_data.txt for a summary of all the data I got. Summary: As far as I can tell all Low Saxon dialects have the "X sien Y" construction, and so have German, Dutch, Frisian, Afrikaans, and even Norwegian. I analyze the Low Saxon construction as a prenominal possessive construction with a possessive linking element occurring between the possessor and the possessum. In Low Saxon, this linker generally has the same form as the possessive construction. "Jan sien Huus" (Jan's house) vs. "sien Huus" (his house). The linker exhibits pronominal agreement with the possessor in gender and number and concord with the possessum in gender, number, and case. The possessor mostly occurs in the dative in those dialects that preserve it like Plautdietsch: "Ekj seeh ?ahrem Brooda siene Pead." (I see her brother's horses.) However, there seems to be something else going on in Plautdietsch, too, because the possessor is not always dative marked: "Mien Brooda sien Peat es jreen." (My brother's horse is green.) (Still have to look into this.) In dialects that have lost a dative vs. accusative distinction the possessor appears in the object case (which I'll call accusative). Often this cannot easily be seen, because case distinctions are often lost. But even pronouns can be used as possessors if they are stressed: "em sien book" (HIS book) The "X sien Y" is very general and versatile construction. It works with all kinds of possessors: nouns, question words, relative pronouns, personal pronouns, and demonstratives: "Min Brauder sin Peer is greun." (My brother's horse is green.) "well sien Hart" (whose heart) "Dit is de Mann, den sien Huus wi sehn hebbt." (This is the man whose house we have seen.) "em sien Huus" (HIS house), "Se ehr Huus" (your house - polite form) "de ehr Dackel" (those people's dachshund) Besides the "symmetric" construction with an overt possessor, the linker, and an overt possessum. You leave out either the possessor to get the older possessive pronoun construction "sien Huus" (his house) or the possessum to get a pronominal interpretation for the possessum: "mien Brauder sien" (my brother's) or even both: "Dat is sien." (That's his.) There seems to be some variation in the dialects as to whether the construction without an overt possessum has to feature a special form of the possessive pronoun/linker (as English "theirs", etc.). Friedrich W. Neumann: Dit is Peiter siin Bauk. Peiter siin is gr?tter as Anna ehr?t/ehr?n. (This is Peter's book. Peter's is bigger than Anna's.) Reinhard Hahn: Dit is (j?m)ehr (~ de ehr) Land. Dit is (j?m)ehr (~ de ehr). (This is their country. This is theirs.) Helge Tietz: Duet is eer land. Duet is eers. (This is their country. This is theirs.) Reuben Epp: Dit es ?ah Laund. Dit es ?aht. (This is their country. This is theirs.) In this context, it is interesting to look at the most grammaticalized variant of this construction which seems to occur in Afrikaans. In Afrikaans, the possessive linker (a) doesn't show any agreement, neither with the possessor nor with the possessum anymore. Moreover, it has a different form that both the normal possessive pronoun (b) and the "independent" possessive pronoun that is used without an overt possessum. Even the linker when used with a possessor but without a possessum seems to have its own peculiar form (d). (a): Haar broer se perde is swart. (Her brother's horses are black.) (b): Hierdie is sy broer. (This is his brother.) (c): Hierdie is syne. (This is his.) (d): Dit is hulle s'n. (This is theirs.) Some Low Saxon dialects might be at the beginning of such a development: If Friedrich W. Neumanns sentence: "Peiter siin is gr?tter as Anna ehr?n." can be used for a neuter singular referent as e.g. for "book", this would be interesting.... For more infos please follow the links above. Last but not least, some interesting facts and questions... In an book about Low Saxon I have come across the following example: Anna ehr wegen ("because of Anna"). What do you think about this example? Would it work in your dialect? An interesting book for all people interested in possessive constructions in Germanic (like me...): Norde, M. (1997): The history of the genitive in Swedish. A case study in degrammaticalization. Dissertation. Vakgroep Skandinavische taal- en letterkunde. University of Amsterdam. The book gives a good overview over the different constructions in Germanic. It states that the "X sien Y" possessive construction in Dutch is only used with animate (or even human) referents: That is "Jan z'n huis" would be fine, but not "dit huis z'n raam". Do you Dutch speakers out there argee? What about Low Saxon, Afrikaans, etc.? Ok, if you have any questions, complains or corrections, or new data (!), keep it comming.... Thank you all again! Jan Strunk jstrunk at stanford.edu strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de http://www.stanford.edu/~jstrunk/ http://www.linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/~strunk/ ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sat Mar 20 16:59:44 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 08:59:44 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.20 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 20.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.18 (09) [E] > From: Jan Strunk > Subject: Syntax Hi Jan, Here are my Flemish variants: > > Dear Lowlands, > Summary: > As far as I can tell all Low Saxon dialects have the "X sien Y" > construction, and so have German, Dutch, Frisian, Afrikaans, and even > Norwegian. I analyze the Low Saxon construction as a prenominal > possessive > construction with a possessive linking element occurring > between the possessor and the possessum. In Low Saxon, this linker > generally > has the same form as the possessive construction. > "Jan sien Huus" (Jan's house) vs. "sien Huus" (his house). Jan zin uus / jans uus > The linker > exhibits pronominal agreement with the possessor in gender and number > and concord with the possessum in gender, number, and case. The > possessor > mostly occurs in the dative in those dialects that preserve it like > Plautdietsch: "Ekj seeh ?ahrem Brooda siene Pead." (I see her brother's > horses.) 'k Zie eur broers peird / 'k Zie eur broers ulder peird > However, there seems to be something else going on in Plautdietsch, > too, > because the possessor is not always dative marked: > "Mien Brooda sien Peat es jreen." (My brother's horse is green.) Min broere zin peird is groene / Min broeres peird is groene. > (Still have to look into this.) > In dialects that have lost a dative vs. accusative distinction the > possessor > appears in the object case (which I'll call accusative). Often this > cannot easily be seen, because case distinctions are often lost. > But even pronouns can be used as possessors if they are stressed: "em > sien > book" (HIS book) Zin boek/ Hie zin boek(sounds natural, but i don't know if it is used) > > The "X sien Y" is very general and versatile construction. It works > with all > kinds of possessors: nouns, question words, relative pronouns, > personal pronouns, and demonstratives: > "Min Brauder sin Peer is greun." (My brother's horse is green.) > "well sien Hart" (whose heart) Wiens herte / Wie(ne) zin herte > "Dit is de Mann, den sien Huus wi sehn hebbt." (This is the man whose > house > we have seen.) Da's de vint zin uus da me gezien h?n / > "em sien Huus" (HIS house) zin uus (E: his house) / eur uus (E: her house) > , "Se ehr Huus" (your house - polite form) joen uus > "de ehr Dackel" (those people's dachshund) ulder nen hond > > Besides the "symmetric" construction with an overt possessor, the > linker, > and an overt possessum. You leave out either the > possessor to get the older possessive pronoun construction "sien Huus" > (his > house) or the possessum to get a pronominal > interpretation for the possessum: "mien Brauder sien" (my brother's) > or even > both: "Dat is sien." (That's his.) Dad'is 't ziene. > There seems to be some variation in the dialects as to whether the > construction without an overt possessum has to feature > a special form of the possessive pronoun/linker (as English "theirs", > etc.). > > Friedrich W. Neumann: Dit is Peiter siin Bauk. Peiter siin is gr?tter > as > Anna ehr?t/ehr?n. (This is Peter's book. Peter's is bigger than > Anna's.) Dad' is Pieter zin boek/ Dad'is Pieters boek. Pieters is gro?ter dan Anna's > Reinhard Hahn: Dit is (j?m)ehr (~ de ehr) Land. Dit is (j?m)ehr (~ de > ehr). > (This is their country. This is theirs.) Dad' is ulder land. Dad' is ulders (E: theirs) Dad'is julder land. Dad'is julders (E: yours) > Helge Tietz: Duet is eer land. Duet is eers. (This is their country. > This is > theirs.) > Reuben Epp: Dit es ?ah Laund. Dit es ?aht. (This is their country. > This is > theirs.) > > In this context, it is interesting to look at the most grammaticalized > variant of this construction which seems to occur in Afrikaans. > In Afrikaans, the possessive linker (a) doesn't show any agreement, > neither > with the possessor nor with the possessum anymore. > Moreover, it has a different form that both the normal possessive > pronoun > (b) and the "independent" possessive pronoun that is used without > an overt possessum. Even the linker when used with a possessor but > without a > possessum seems to have its own peculiar form (d). > > (a): Haar broer se perde is swart. (Her brother's horses are black.) Eur broere zin peirden zin zwart./ Eur broeres peirden zin zwart > (b): Hierdie is sy broer. (This is his brother.) 'ndien ier is zin broere. > (c): Hierdie is syne. (This is his.) Dad'ier is zin... > (d): Dit is hulle s'n. (This is theirs.) Dad'is tunder/tulder > > Some Low Saxon dialects might be at the beginning of such a > development: > If Friedrich W. Neumanns sentence: "Peiter siin is gr?tter as Anna > ehr?n." > can be used for a neuter singular referent as e.g. for "book", > this would be interesting.... > > For more infos please follow the links above. Last but not least, some > interesting facts and questions... > In an book about Low Saxon I have come across the following example: > > Anna ehr wegen ("because of Anna"). What do you think about this > example? > Would it work in your dialect? Anna's ierentwegen... > > An interesting book for all people interested in possessive > constructions in > Germanic (like me...): > > Norde, M. (1997): The history of the genitive in Swedish. A case study > in > degrammaticalization. Dissertation. Vakgroep Skandinavische taal- en > letterkunde. University of Amsterdam. > > The book gives a good overview over the different constructions in > Germanic. > It states that the "X sien Y" possessive construction > in Dutch is only used with animate (or even human) referents: That is > "Jan > z'n huis" would be fine, but not "dit huis z'n raam". Just the same in Flemish. Jan zin uus / 't raom van dad'uus. > Do you Dutch speakers out there argee? What about Low Saxon, Afrikaans, > etc.? > Ok, if you have any questions, complains or corrections, or new data > (!), > keep it comming.... > Thank you all again! > Jan Strunk Groetjes luc Vanbrabant oekene ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sat Mar 20 17:07:36 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 09:07:36 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.20 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 20.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Fr?d?ric Baert Subject: morphology Hi to everybody I have a question in mind : I know about the first germanic sound shift and about the high german sound shift. But I can't understand something : to the english word "seven", dutch/flemish "zeven" correpond german "sieben", french "sept", griek "hepta" or something like that. So lowlands languages seem to have a "v" in place of a "b" in high german and a "p" in other european languages. Kind of sound shift in lowlands languages. I think also about english/dutch/flemish "half" german "halb" (I think). English "self", flemish "zelve" and "zelvst" but german "selbst". Perhaps english "answer" but dutch/flemish "antooren/antworen". I'm sorry for eventual orthograph mistakes. I did never read about this phenomenon. Can you give me informations about it ? Thank you Fr?d?ric Baert ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology Hi, Fr?d?ric! Lowlands Saxon (Low German) has either /v/ or /b/ in such instances, depending on the dialect. (It is /b/ in the Lower Elbe region, for instance.) In Old Saxon, such instances are written with a barred "b" (), which may mean that it was pronounced as a bilabial fricative, much like Modern Spanish and . Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sat Mar 20 17:10:01 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 09:10:01 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.20 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 20.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Helge Tietz Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.15 (04) [E] Hi Ben, Finally I came around replying to your mail about the Benrath Line. On encyclopedia.org I have found the following: A. THE LOW GERMAN DIALECTS The Low German dialects, as we have seen, stand nearest to the English and Frisian languages, owing to the total absence of the consonantal shifting which characterizes High German, as well as to other peculiarities of sounds and inflections, e.g. the loss of the nasals m and n before the spirants f, s and p. Cf. Old Saxon fif (five), us (us), kup (cf. uncouth). The boundary-line between Low and High German, the so-called Benrather Linie, may roughly be indicated by the following place-names, on the understanding, however, that the Ripuarian dialect (see below) is to be classed with High German: east of Eupen, north of Aachen, north of Benrath, south of Duesseldorf, north of Siegen, north of Cassel, north of Heiligenstadt, Harzgerode, to the Elbe south of Magdeburg; this river forms the boundary as far as Wittenberg, whence the line passes to Lubben on the Spree, Furstenwald on the Oder and Birnbaum near the river Warthe. Beyond this point the Low Germans have Slavs as their neighbors. Compared with the conditions in the 13th century, it appears that Low German has lost ground; down to the 14th and 15th centuries several towns, such as Mansfeld, Eisleben, Merseburg, Halle, Dessau and Wittenberg, spoke Low German. Addition: Such towns as Nuys/Neuss, Glabbeek/Moenchengladbach, Krieveld/Krefeld, Solingen and Duesseldoerp/Duesseldorf are north of this line and elderly people in particular speak the old Low Franconian dialects of this places. Example: In Dueseldoerp people still say "Lott jonn" in compare "Loss jonn" in Cologne. Low German falls into two divisions, a western division, namely. Low Franconian, the parent, as we have already said, of Flemish and Dutch, and an eastern division, Low Saxon (Plattdeutsch, or, as it is often simply called, Low German). The chief characteristic of the division is to be sought in the ending of the first and third person plural of the present indicative of verbs, this being in the former case -en, in the latter -et. Inasmuch as the south-eastern part of Low Franconianinclusive of Gelderland and Clevesshifts final k to ch (e.g. ich, mich, auch, -lick), it must obviously be separated from the rest, and in this respect be grotiped with High German. Low Saxon is usually divided into Westphalian (to the west of the Weser) and Low Saxon proper, between Weser and Elbe. The southeastern part of the latter has the verbal ending -en and further shows the peculiarity that the personal pronoun has the same form in the dative and accusative (mile, dick), whereas the renjainder, as well as the Westphalian, has ml, di in the dative, and ml, di or mik, dik in the accusative. To these Low German dialects must also be added those spoken east of the Elbe on what was originally Slavonic territory; they have the ending -en in the first and third person plural of verbs.5 Helge ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sat Mar 20 17:12:10 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 09:12:10 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.20 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 20.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Fr?d?ric Baert Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.17 (01) [E] Ron wrote : >Let me ask speakers of Low Franconian language varieties and of other >language varieties that do not use aspiration. How was or is it for you to >learn English, German, Scandinavian and other Germanic languages in which >aspiration is (usually) required. Is it difficult for you to use >aspiration? Do you even bother to learn and use it (given the fact that you >can usually be understood without using it)? > >Regards, >Reinhard/Ronh > Hi Sorry to reply to this so late. I'm a french fleming so I speak french and partially french flemish. I know I have a little flemish accent (my french friends say that because I can't hear it !). I don't think it has been difficult for me to learn to use aspiration in english but I can't say if it's the case for all french people and if I use aspiration correctly. But there is another point. I think I use sometimes a little aspiration (not as strong as in english) after the initial occlusives (especially p and t) in french. In most of cases, I use it to accentuate the word. i.e. "c'est terrible". The t of "terrible" can have a little aspiration if I place a stress on the first syllab. I can't say if it's particular to me, to french flanders or if it exists in other regions of France. cheers Frederic Baert ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sat Mar 20 17:33:23 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 09:33:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.20 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 20.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.18 (08) [E] Mike Wintzer wrote: "I suspect that this is wishful thinking. In the best of cases what you can reconstruct is the skeleton of a language because that is what you can record, but the gist, the flavor, the perfume of a language will be gone forever with its last speaker. What you resurrect is something else. It shares vocabulary and grammar with its ancestor, but not the soul." It all rather depends on how one goes about reviving a language. My background is Cornish and Irish - two languages that have seen strong and successful revival movements over the last fifty years and the last twenty years especially. There are now more people with capabilities in Cornish and Irish, and more native speakers (all brought to pass through the revival movement) than a hundred years ago. I would rather language revival was attempted - no matter how imperfect - than denigrated. All language planning is, to some extent, "wishful thinking". Wishes are what provide the motivation to speak ancestral languages once again. Mike implies that revived languages are necessarily inauthentic, lacking the "the gist, the flavour, the perfume". This is unfair and untrue: it depends on how you set about reviving a language. Cornish is a good example of the two extremes in doing this. There are, in fact (as I suspect is well known here) three (actually, four) variants of Cornish. One (which I consider is the best), Modern Cornish, tries to pick up where the last native speakers left off - simple as that. It places a strong emphasis of the phonological descent of the modern accents of West Cornwall in describing the sound system of the last speakers. Unfortunately, it uses an English-based orthography, so that the common Celtic word for 'land' (W. tir, Ir. tir) comes out as 'teere'. The word 'head' is 'pedn'; the word for 'country' is 'gollaz'. The word for the language itself is variously 'Curnoack', 'Cornoack' or 'Kernuack'. Internationalisms (telephone, television) are used. This is the Paternoster in Modern Cornish: Agon Taze nye, eze en Neve, Benegas bo tha Hanow. Tha Gwlaskath gwrenz doaz; Tha Voth bo gwreze, En Noer pecarra en Neve. Ro tha nye an journama gon bara pub death, Ha gave tha nye gon pehasow Pecarra tel era nye gava angye Neb eze peha war agon bidn. Ha na raze gon lewa en antall, Buz gweeth nye thurt droeg. Rag an Gwlaskath Che a beaw, Han Nearth, han Worrians, Rag nevra venitha. The second variant underpinned the language revival movement almost from its inception in the nineteenth century: Unified Cornish. As its named suggested, Unified took a syncretic approach, synthesising a Cornish language from the miracle play manuscripts of the late Middle Ages and Tudor times. It borrowed heavily from Breton and Welsh to find Celtic cognates that had not been recorded in the manuscripts. It is still the most popular variant, but ironically produced a further variant, Unified Cornish Revised, when a noted Cornish scholar sought to update it. The word for 'head' in this variant is 'pen', the word for 'land' is 'tyr', the word for 'country' is 'gwlas' (cf: W. gwlad). Neologisms replace 'television' (pellwollek) and telephone (pellgowser). The word for the language itself is 'Kernewek' or 'Kernowek'. The Paternoster in Unified: AGAN Tas ny ues y'n nef, benegys re bo dha hanow; re dheffa dha wlascor; re bo gwres dha volunjeth, y'n nor kepar hag y'n nef. Ro dhyn hedhyw agan bara pub dedh oll; ha gaf dhyn agan camweyth kepar del eson nyny ow cava dhe?n re na usy ow camwul war agan pyn ny. Ha na wra agan ledya yn antel mes delyrf ny dheworth drog. Rag dhyso jy yw an wlascor ha'n power ha'n gordhyans, bys vyken ha benary. The last, and by far most controversial, variant enjoyed a short period of ascendancy in the 1980s and 1990s. Called 'Kernewek Kemmyn' (Common Cornish), it was the the project of one Dr Ken George, who spent a summer at the University of Rennes devising a computer programme that would 'predict' the sounds of Cornish as it had been spoken in the tenth century when the language covered the whole of the country and had not been, as Dr George saw it, 'corrupted' by English. He was, to use Mike's terms, determined to capture "the gist, the flavour, the perfume" of the language in the halycon days before its retreat. Unfortunately, what he came out with was appeared to most language enthusiasts to be a bastardised, computer-aided Breton, not Cornish. By delving so far back into an imaginary phonology, Dr George had constructed a language which he called 'Cornish' but which most Cornish speakers and enthusiasts felt decidedly uncomfortable toward. Afte! r a brief flurry over excitement, Kemmyn's flaws were well documented and the variant is now in decline. The rifts it produced in the revival movement were the last thing the movement needed. Thus, Mike, one should be careful how far one wants to take a unnecessary dogmatic attachment to "the gist, the flavour, the perfume" of a language. Languages change, develop, progress. Looking backward should not be a substitute for looking forward - particularly when to do so blots out the very ideal of reviving a language in the first place. Criost?ir. ---------- From: Thomas byro Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.18 (08) [E] Ron I wasn't aware of the influence of European languages on Modern Hebrew. Rather, I had thought that the major influence was the pronounciation favored by the Sephardim, who are mostly from the Arabic speaking countries. Most of the Orthodox in New York favor the Askenazic pronounciation. Outside of New York Modern Hebrew seems to be preferred and hearing Shabbat rather thab Shabbes sounds bizzarre to me. Tom Byro > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Etymology > > Hi, Cr?ost?ir, Mike, Lowlanders! > > I'll chime in here, if you don't mind, perhaps in a moderating or mitigating > capicity (or so I'd like to think). > > Perhaps neither of you is totally right or wrong, if there *is* a right and > a wrong here. Or, better to say, both of you make valid points. > > Cr?ost?ir, you wisely added the phrases "particularly if there is an > unbroken line of second language speakers (e.g., Hebrew, Cornish, Manx)" and > "providing has been recorded sufficiently." Unfortunately, both of these > things are easier said than done, given that even second-language > proficiency has been discouraged traditionally (at least by way of > withholding support), and given also that most of the recording activities, > or at least those that are of use to the average person, relied mostly on > private initiatives and private funding, many a project fizzling out on a > publisher's desk. However, this is a different matter, not to distract from > your point. > > Mike, in my opinion, you too made a valid point in saying that resurrected > languages are not the same as the originals on which they are supposed to be > based. Even though you did not say so with so many words, I add to this > that a resurrected language may be a fairly far cry from the original even > if there *is* a lot of recording. Let me play the devil's advocate and ask, > "So what?" > > Assuming that, for whatever reason, a given population embraces the idea of > resurrecting and reviving its ancestral language, should it really be so > important that the exact "flavor" of the "original" is there? Would the > absence of this "flavor" or the presence of a new "flavor" make this revived > language worthless or less worthy? Probably only if reviving the very same > "flavor" were the main purpose of the exercise. I can envisage no scenario > in the real world in which this would be the case. Usually the main purpose > of reviving languages is to create links with one's ancestral heritage, both > symbolically and practically (e.g., to preserve and continue a literary > tradition and to assure easier access to ancestral literature). > > I would like to go even one step farther by saying that putting enormous > effort into reviving what some people consider to be the ancestral "flavor" > would be likely to lead to overly artificial creations. Surely the purpose > of the exercise should not be to go back in time but to reclaim a part of > one's heritage and make it fit today's and tomorrow's needs. Inevitably, > the history of suppression, oppression, decline and demise will have left > their traces in this supposedly resuscitated "construct." And well they > should, as far as I am concerned. Why *would* you want to try to pretend > that nothing happened between then and now? Suppression, oppression, > decline and demise are parts of that history, as are "foreign" domination > and influences. German and Dutch domination on Lowlands Saxon (Low German) > are a fact and can and should not be magically washed away, nor should > French and Standard Dutch influences on Flemish and Zeelandic, English > influences on Scots, etc. They are parts of those histories. > > Take the case of Hebrew, which Cr?ost?ir mentioned. In many ways, Modern > Hebrew is a far cry from biblical and liturgical Hebrew, even from > scholar-specific conversational Hebrew used occasionally in international > settings in pre-modern times. So what? Does it make it worthless and > useless? I don't think so, and I dare say neither do millions of speakers > (including many native speakers) in Israel and around the world. Modern > Hebrew is perfectly well adapted to and suited for all spheres of life here > and now. At the same time there is a strong, albeit it not perfect, link > between it and the ancestral versions. What more would you want? Today's > Israelis and other Hebrew speakers are aware and justly proud of their > ancient heritage. But I hardly think that it worries a lot among them that > their version does not have the same "flavor" as biblical and liturgical > Hebrew. Centuries of diaspora all over the world have left their marks on > Modern Hebrew, or, better to say, are imported flavors, which should come as > a surprise to no one. After all, the act of resurrection was relatively > brief. The processes of reviving and reinvigorating that followed > resurrection were left in large part to the actual users of the language and > thus took place in a fairly "organic" sort of way, planned neologisms often > being abandoned in favor of "organically grown" ones. Hence, there is a > multitude of influences from the languages of the world. That's the reality > and the history of its speakers and their ancestors. Why should it *not* be > there to add new flavors and perfumes? (Sure, for various reasons I > personally would have liked Modern Hebrew to have been influenced more by > Arabic, its Semitic sister language, than by North European languages. > However, predominance of Eurocentrist and "anti-Orientalist" sentiments and > powers are a reality, besides the fact that millions of European immigrants > simply would have had a very hard time acquiring the true Semitic > pronunciation that Ancient Hebrew had. However, this is my personal > feelings and should not be seen as subtracting from my argument.) > > Regards, > Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language survival Tom, Here just briefly, since it's non-Lowlandic. Initially, Modern Hebrew was based on Sephardic Hebrew pronunciation. This means that for instance old was pronounced as /t/ (rather than as Ashkenazic /s/), long /o/ was pronounced as /o/ (rather than as Ashkenazic /oi/), and long /a/ was pronounced as /a/ (rather than as Ashkenazic /o/). This has to do with planning or intentions. What happened in addition is that, as immigrants acquired Hebrew, the language acquired a blend of European "accents," since most immigrants were European, spoke Hebrew as a new language, and dominated in various ways. Not all Sephardim came from North Africa, but many of them came from France, Italy, the Balkans, Turkey, the Americas, etc., and they did not pronounce Hebrew with Arabic accents. When I lived in Israel I knew many immigrants from North African countries whose Hebrew, if they knew it before immigration, sounded "beautiful" to me, much like I imagine Ancient Hebrew to have sounded. They were the only ones who distinguished all the old phonemes that are still represented in writing. However, at least the young ones among them quickly adopted the "European accent," having gotten the message that "Oriental" accents and culture were not to their advantage. I hope I answered your question. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sat Mar 20 22:19:34 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 14:19:34 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.20 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 20.MAR.2004 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mike Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.20 (05) [E] Re: Revival of Cornish Moin Lowlanders, I did not mean to denigrate anybody or anything. In fact, Cr?ost?ir?s fascinating story about the revival of Cornish demonstrates what a rewarding and succesful activity language revival can be. (Modern Hebrew of course is another example.) Thanks Cr?ost?ir for your posting. I guess my reaction was motivated by the fear that we might fall into complacency: "Let it die, we can always resurrect it later." This would make our efforts seem much more futile than they already are and may stifle them completely. Tsch??, Mike Wintzer ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sat Mar 20 23:08:41 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 15:08:41 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.20 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 20.MAR.2004 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Heiko Evermann Subject: Copenhagen/Koebenhavn Hi everyone, For the name of the Danish capital we have two very different forms: 1) the Danish (original) Form: K?benhavn. 2) the English form: Copenhagen, or in German: Kopenhagen. (For the origin of K?benhavn, I have heard that the first part means merchant, and the second means harbour.) The strange thing about the name is the change from v to g, which is highly unusual. Does anyone know how to explain this? Kind regards, Heiko Evermann ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology Moyen, Heiko! > The strange thing about the name is the change from v to g, which is > highly unusual. It isn't as unusual as you may think. Within the West Germanic group it is not prevalent, though there are instances such as Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _blau_ ~ _blaag_ (and Dutch _blauw_) 'blue'. When it comes to this phenomenon, you need to throw /v/ and /w/ into one category. (In such cases they may even be allophones.) This alternation between /g/ and /v~w/ is quite noticeable within the North Germanic group. Note for example Danish _dag_ being pronounced [da:G] ~ [da:w] etc. (hence the spelling or in Jutish). Note also the word for 'sea' or 'ocean' in North Germanic: Swedish _hav_, Danish _hav_ ([haw]), Norwegian _hav_, Icelandic _haf_, Old Norse _haf_, versus the word for 'pasture' or 'garden': Swedish _hage_, Danish _have_ (['ha:v?]), Norwegian _hage_, Icelandic _hagi_, Old Norse _hagi_, and now compare these with West Germanic cognates such as German _Hag_, Dutch/LS _haag_ and English _haw_! This /g/ ~ /v~w/ alternation is very prevalent in other language groups and families, such as in Turkic and other Altaic languages, where /w/ frequently alternates with uvular (postvelar) /G/; e.g., _taG_ ~ _taw_ ~ _tau_ 'mountain'. I think this has something to do with a tendency toward lip rounding while pronouncing voiced velars and uvulars in some language varieties. However, note the very word for 'harbor' in North Germanic: Swedish _hamn_, Danish _havn_ ([haw|n]), Dano-Norwegian _havn_, Icelandic _h?fn_, Old Norse _h?fn_. Not a /g/ in sight! I often wonder if _Kopenhagen_ is derived from foreign, perhaps Middle Saxon, reanalysis of _havn_ 'harbor' as _hag-en_ 'the _hag_ (haw?)'. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sun Mar 21 23:32:02 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 15:32:02 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.21 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 21.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Luc Hellinckx Subject: Phonology Beste Heiko, A /v/ being pronounced /g/ might indeed not be so unusual. We have a group of so called "Dender-dialecten" in Brabantish, where this is quite common. Dutch _houden_ (_hold_ (E)) becomes _(h)aven_ in Brabantish, but _(h)agen_ in that group for example. Same goes for _d(o)uwen_ (D) (_push_ (E)), which is _daven_ or _d?ven_ in (B), but _dagen_ along the Dender river. Greetings, Luc Hellinckx ---------- From: Heinrich Becker Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.20 (07) [E] Heiko and all, Koebnhavn = pronounced Koebenhaun; in Swedish K?penhamn I's just the the typical way of Danish Pronounciation. The word 'hav' spoken hau can also mean garden. The word trav = trot, spoken "trau". Havnegryn = oatflakes "haunegryn" The pronunciation of Danish seems to foreigneres because of the reduction of vocals and diphtongs as well as the use of click and gulp sounds exotic and has no example in other Germanic languages exept the Danish influenced dialect in Skane on the other side of the Oeresund. That's what Danish is about. Otherwise there would be even less difference to Swedish. Regards Heinrich Becker ---------- From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.20 (07) [E] What is funny in Danish and Jutish is that Copenhagen Danish often has w/u where Jutish has G or x, and the other way around. I tried finding some good examples...but I didn't really succeed. Danish Western Jutish Southern Jutish tog [tow'] [to:G] [tOx] toget [to(j|G)@D] [E to:G] ([to:GEd]) [E tOx] dag [da', da:(G)] [daw] ([da, da:G]) [daw] dage [da:(G)@] [da:.u:] - kbh [k?b at nhAun] [kj?unhAun] [k(j)?f at nhAun] sprog ([sprou]) [sproG] [sprOx] > This alternation between /g/ and /v~w/ is quite noticeable within the North > Germanic group. Note for example Danish _dag_ being pronounced [da:G] ~ > [da:w] etc. (hence the spelling or in Jutish). Note also the > word for 'sea' or 'ocean' in North Germanic: Swedish _hav_, Danish _hav_ > ([haw]), Norwegian _hav_, Icelandic _haf_, Old Norse _haf_, versus the word > for 'pasture' or 'garden': Swedish _hage_, Danish _have_ (['ha:v?]), > Norwegian _hage_, Icelandic _hagi_, Old Norse _hagi_, and now compare these > with West Germanic cognates such as German _Hag_, Dutch/LS _haag_ and > English _haw_! ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sun Mar 21 23:33:21 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 15:33:21 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language Survival" 2004.03.21 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 21.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.20 (06) [E] Mike Wintzer wrote: "I guess my reaction was motivated by the fear that we might fall into complacency: 'Let it die, we can always resurrect it later.' This would make our efforts seem much more futile than they already are and may stifle them completely." I agree. Complacency is the worst sin of the endangered language community. I have always held that we tend to take a minimalist approach to language retention, transmission and rights - how many Lowland languages (or any others, for that matter) are actually taught in nurseries (kindergarten), and primary and secondary schools as the main 'immersion' subject of instruction? Endangered languages are lucky to be taught as a 'foreign' language subject, especially in countries such as France where the very idea of 'regional' languages is perceived by the state as treachery to the republic. Too often language enthusiasts wait for the go ahead, for permission, from a distant central government that couldn't care less about any endangered language, because they don't want to be seen as trouble-making, disloyal extremists. In the mean time, our languages are rarely taught, rarely used in the public domain, and almost totally subordinated to the state language. Complacency is a perfidious thing indeed. Criost?ir. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sun Mar 21 23:51:13 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 15:51:13 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.21 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 21.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.18 (07) [E] Ron wrote: > > We need a book like this for Lowlands Saxon (Low German) as well, folks. Reinhard, you have probably already covered this point, but what differentiates Low Saxon languages from Low German ones? Ben ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Ben, Let me try to put this in a nutshell. (And, please, everyone, feel free to chime in!) "Low German" is a very ambiguous term. It can mean any of three things: (1) A language branch within West Germanic. This has two sub-branches: (1) Low(lands) Franconian (now Dutch, Zeelandic, Flemish, Afrikaans, etc.) and (2) Low(lands) Saxon (now the Lowlands Saxon dialects that have Old Saxon as their common ancestor). (2) The "Low German" dialects of Germany, a catch-all name for all Low Franconian and Low Saxon dialects used in that specific country and in what in the past used to be eastern regions under German dominance. (This includes the Mennonite dialects.) (3) The Lowlands Saxon dialects only, including or excluding those used in the Netherlands. (Many of those German people that do recognize that the dialects of the Eastern Netherlands are at least closely related to those of Northern Germany but at the same time refuse to call the ones in Germany "Low(lands) Saxon" often refer to those of the Netherlands by their Dutch name "Nedersaksisch" instead of German "Nieders?chsisch," making this a very silly name game.) The traditional genealogical model in German academia is "Old Saxon > Middle Low German > Modern Low German." So, the Saxon language magically becomes "German" at one point in time. Noticing the inconsistency of this, some people (probably those relying on German government funding) started consistently "erring" on the side of "German" by using the model "Old Low German > "Middle Low German > Modern Low German," with reference to the Saxon-based dialects. So the Saxon language has been renamed entirely to make it German, and there is no more mention of "Saxon." I hope this helped. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 22 17:58:15 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 09:58:15 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.22 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Allison Turner-Hansen Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.20 (02) [E] Dear Lowlanders, In respect of one part of Frederic's question below, the voiced quality of the medial consonant of the word for seven, I would like to say that I think we're dealing here with Verner's law. Verner's law explains the exceptions to Grimm's Law. According to Verner, the Indo-European sounds p,t, k, kw yield voiced outcomes in Gmc. (instead of the voiceless spirants expected under Grimm's Law) when non-initial, and when the Indo-European accent did not fall on the immediately preceding syllabic sound. In this word the accent is reconstructed for the second syllable. In Proto-Germanic there was the voiced spirant, then, which hardened up to a stop in some dialects. I think the change from fricative to stop started in the south and moved in waves to the north, leaving lowlands languages less affected. There are other wierd things about the word seven in Gmc, though, like the lack of t: Latin had septem, Skt. sapta, Gk hepta. I hope you're all doing well! Allison Turner-Hansen > From: Fr?d?ric Baert > Subject: morphology > > Hi to everybody > > I have a question in mind : > I know about the first germanic sound shift and about the high german sound > shift. But I can't understand something : to the english word "seven", > dutch/flemish "zeven" correpond german "sieben", french "sept", > griek "hepta" or something like that. So lowlands languages seem to have > a "v" in place of a "b" in high german and a "p" in other european > languages. Kind of sound shift in lowlands languages. I think also about > english/dutch/flemish "half" german "halb" (I think). English "self", > flemish "zelve" and "zelvst" but german "selbst". Perhaps english "answer" > but dutch/flemish "antooren/antworen". > I'm sorry for eventual orthograph mistakes. > I did never read about this phenomenon. Can you give me informations about > it ? > Thank you > Fr?d?ric Baert > > ---------- > > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Phonology > > Hi, Fr?d?ric! > > Lowlands Saxon (Low German) has either /v/ or /b/ in such instances, > depending on the dialect. (It is /b/ in the Lower Elbe region, for > instance.) In Old Saxon, such instances are written with a barred "b" > (), which may mean that it was pronounced as a bilabial fricative, much > like Modern Spanish and . > > Regards, > Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: Brooks, Mark Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.20 (07) [E] Heiko wrote: "For the origin of K?benhavn, I have heard that the first part means merchant..." This is funny, because in my own peculiar folk etymology I always thought the "Koeben" and "Copen" meant "copper" as in "Copperhaven." I was analysing it as "cobre" in Spanish and copper in English. I don't remember other languages' word for copper, but I remember they were all similar. Now, that analysis fit nicely with the fact that so many of the roofs of the main buildings there are made from copper. Mark ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 22 17:59:56 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 09:59:56 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.22 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Language varieties Hi Ben, In short, Low German is: Low Franconian: - Dutch - Afrikaans - Zeelandic, (Western) Flemish etc. - A small area around Kleve, which is not Low Saxon, but closer related to Dutch dialects like Brabantish (Brabants) Low Saxon: - all dialects ranging from the Veluwe region in the Netherlands to the German-Polish border High German is: - Standard German (Hochdeutsch) - Luxemburgish (Letzebuergesch) - Bavarian (?) - etc. Limburgish does not really fit in here, it is a kind of transition area between Low and High German, as well as Low and Middle Franconian: Through the years, Limburgish has had a lot of Low Franconian influences (especially from Brabant and, later on, from Holland and Flanders). Originally, the area around Cologne (K?ln) was very important though. The German dialects around Cologne and further south towards Luxemburg and Hessen are called Middle Franconian. This Franconian area runs all the way to the area around N?rnberg (!), I believe. So, except the differences between Low and High German, there is also the case of Low, Middle and High Franconian, to make it even more complicated. But, to come back to one of your earlier question: the Bernrather line is the dividing line between p/f (lopen/laufen), p/pf (appel/apfel) and k/ch (maken/machen). In addition, there is also the ?rdinger line, which marks the difference between ik/ich. Dialects north of both those lines are considered Low German, dialects south of these two lines are considered High German. Limburgish is situated right in between those two dialectical lines, by the way. Regards, Mathieu ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 22 18:26:16 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 10:26:16 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.22 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Jan Strunk Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.03.20 (05) [E] Hi, let me throw in my two cents... > Mike Wintzer wrote: > "I suspect that this is wishful thinking. In the best of cases what you can > reconstruct is the skeleton of a language because that is what you can > record, but the gist, the flavor, the perfume of a language will be gone > forever with its last speaker. What you resurrect is something else. It > shares vocabulary and grammar with its ancestor, but not the soul." Cristoir wrote: > It all rather depends on how one goes about reviving a language. My > background is Cornish and Irish - two languages that have seen strong and > successful revival movements over the last fifty years and the last twenty > years especially. There are now more people with capabilities in Cornish and > Irish, and more native speakers (all brought to pass through the revival > movement) than a hundred years ago. I would rather language revival was > attempted - no matter how imperfect - than denigrated. All language planning > is, to some extent, "wishful thinking". Wishes are what provide the > motivation to speak ancestral languages once again. > > Mike implies that revived languages are necessarily inauthentic, lacking the > "the gist, the flavour, the perfume". This is unfair and untrue: it depends > on how you set about reviving a language. Cornish is a good example of the > two extremes in doing this. There are, in fact (as I suspect is well known > here) three (actually, four) variants of Cornish. I have to agree with Mike although I am not sure what he means with perfume and flavor. But the thing is that language revitalization will probably have a hard time (even if there is an unbroken line of second language speakers) to revive all the very important but yet unconscious facts about language use, such factors as modern linguistics hardly even begins to explore and lay persons do not usually think about at all. Let me give some examples: Factors that trigger word order variation and the choice between two alternating construction like the dative alternation in English: "I give him the book" vs. "I give the book to him". These depend on quite complicated factors and are often only statistical tendencies. Yet, if you do not use such alternations correctly, I guess that native speakers will soon notice that there is something odd about the way you talk. Phonological phrasing and stress are probably not easy to teach or even record either. Something that can be recorded, but still gets eroded first under the influence of official languages are the idiomaticity of the language and collocational preferences. With collocational preferences I mean things like: you say "red wine" but not "purple wine", etc. What strikes me most about the erosion of Low Saxon is that the native idioms and collocations often get lost and are replaced by German and Dutch calques. I think this really makes the Low Saxon varieties on the German and Dutch side of the border quite distinct from each other. So, I think that if your objective is to authentically revive a language, you are probably bound to fail. But if you think (as I do, too) that a revival naturally leaves its mark on a language and is an important part of its "future history" than you can acknowledge that and still be successful in reviving a language if your objective is to build up a new community of speakers and connect them to the local linguistic past. Kumpelmente! Jan jstrunk at stanford.edu ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language survival Folks, I keep contending that continued or revived languages are never truly "authentic." For one thing, all languages keep evolving and changing, adapting to new places and circumstances. This tends to be only more obvious and "dramatic" in cases of resurrected and revived languages, as well as in cases of transplanted languages. For example, Yiddish in the Americas and under Soviet domination has undergone some striking changes even where folks picked up where their parents and grandparents stopped. As far as I am concerned, this is all right, does not make for inferior or weakened varieties but for varieties that demonstrate the adaptibility of the language. Another notable case in point is English. During the French-dominated Norman occupation of Britain, English came to be seriously weakened to the point of being a threatened language. It came to be massively influenced by French within a relatively short time, so much so that at the end of the occupation those who knew English could not or could barely even read (pre-occupation) Old English texts. Medieval Norman French was the language of power, and it came to be adopted as the first or preferred language of ma ny a Briton, so that the number of English speakers dwindled rapidly. It was thanks to the efforts of a relatively small number of activists, notable among them being Cornish scholars (whose ancestral Celtic language had already suffered serious blows under English power), that English came to be reinvigorated after the end of Norman occupation. However, it was now a very different creature compared with English of before the Norman Conquest. Yet, what is important is that it survived and that in the process it was, though less Germanic, strengthened and enriched in a number of ways, as well as morphologically and lexically flexible enough to adapt to new environments as it spread to the "New World." Kumpelmenten ook vun my. Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 22 21:36:37 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:36:37 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.22 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.22 (01) [E] Ki?benhaffn/k?benhavn dan. ki?be/k?be ~ nds/nld. kopen which comes from Latin caupo dan. haffn/havn ~ nds/nld. haven mearning harbor Copper is kobber (pronounced like [kOu@]) in Danish. Kenneth > Heiko wrote: > "For the origin of K?benhavn, I have heard that the first part means > merchant..." > > This is funny, because in my own peculiar folk etymology I always thought > the "Koeben" and "Copen" meant "copper" as in "Copperhaven." I was > analysing it as "cobre" in Spanish and copper in English. I don't remember > other languages' word for copper, but I remember they were all similar. > Now, that analysis fit nicely with the fact that so many of the roofs of the > main buildings there are made from copper. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 22 21:43:18 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:43:18 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.22 (05) [E/German] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.22 (02) [E] > From: Mathieu. van Woerkom > Subject: Language varieties > But, to come back to one of your earlier question: the Bernrather line is the dividing line between p/f (lopen/laufen), p/pf (appel/apfel) and k/ch (maken/machen). In addition, there is also the ?rdinger line, which marks the difference between ik/ich. Dialects north of both those lines are considered Agree for ik/ich (?rdingen) and maken/machen (Benrath). Do not agree for Appel/Apfel since this isogloss is frequently used for separating Lothringisch from Alsatian. In the Luxembourgish dictionary: - (French) pomme: --> Apel, plural ?ppel I am not sure for lopen/laufen. Luxembourgish has: - courir: lafen but - sur: op > Low German, dialects South of these two lines are considered High German. > Limburgish is situated right in between those two dialectical lines, by the way. Let me refer to some maps on my own website(s). You will find similar maps on other places on the web. I actually started publishing on the web in the mid nineties, when i got some space on the CompuServe server. I changed a couple of times from provider and I ended with some pages on one one server and others, still to move, on another server. The main pages start with: http://home-13.tiscali-business.nl/%7Etpm09245/lang/langbel.htm Pages still to move start at: http://www.euro-support.be/langbel/langbel.htm Sorry for the inconvenience, but time fails for... It is my opinion much around these isoglosses has to do with politics. But let's start with the linguistic side: The transition of Low-German to High-German goes in little steps in the West. Some of these steps are used for delimiting dialect areas. An overview of the North-South transition can be found on URL: http://www.euro-support.be/langbel/mapger2.htm When I look in an older Duden Encyclopedia, the ik/ich isogloss (passing through ?rdingen, close to Krefeld in Germany) is used for separating Low-German from Middle-German. This isogloss is not acceptable for Dutch political linguists though, considering Limburgish being a dialect OF Dutch, which is hardly defendable when it would be classified as Middle German (since it falls South of the ?rdiner line) So they went looking for other isoglosses, and they found that the isogloss maken/machen (passing through Bernrath, close to D?sseldorf, in Germany), which bends to the South, virtually along the Dutch-German border, would be more suitable for separating dialects OF Dutch from dialects OF German. cf. map at URL: http://home-13.tiscali-business.nl/%7Etpm09245/lang/lg/li_map/lgo.htm 1 = Bernrather Linie (at the East of the map) 2 = ?rdinger Linie (at the West and North of the map) -- Quote Goossens (in German) on the same URL: Es ist in Marburg eine Tradition geworden zu betonen, da? die ?rdinger Linie die wichtigste Scheide zwischen Hochdeutsch und Niederdeutsch im weiteren Sinne ist, wichtiger als die Bernrather Linie. Dagegen hat sich in L?wen durchgesetzt zu betonen, da? due ?rdinger Linie eine relativ unwichtige Dialectgrenze ist, die sogar wenig geeignet ist, als Kriterium f?r die Begrenzung von West- und Ostniederfr?nkisch zu dienen. -- end quote Goossens (is a Limburgian, but was professor on both Universities of Leuven (in Belgium) and of M?nster (in Germany) follows the Dutch-Belgian tradition of classifying Limburgish as East-Low-Franconian. Germans rather use: South-Low-Franconian (S?dniederfr?nkisch) for the same group, as e.g. on URL: http://home-13.tiscali-business.nl/%7Etpm09245/lang/lg/li_map/lvr.htm This is just a matter of name-giving, not important, just confusing. While the Dutch linguists use the Bernrather line for defending there "territory", the Limburgish linguists had also a problem with the ?rdinger line, since it includes Brabantish Haspengouw (the Tienen area) at its South-West. So they arranged for a cut-off in the South-West, using the isoglosses at the river Gete (separating the old Duchy of Branant from the old County of Loon). For the defintion of the Gete isoglosses see URL: http://www.euro-support.be/langbel/gete.htm I see the maps are momentarely not properly picked-up on the other page: http://www.euro-support.be/langbel/mapget.htm (Sorry, I will try to arrange that later tonight) So the ?rdinger Linie was rubbed out in the West by the Dutch linguists for including Limburgh in their realm, and by the West-Limburgish linguists for having South-East Brabant kicked out of their territory, a third problem remained: The North of the Dutch province of Limburg was cut-out. The Germans West- of the river Rhine also have a very strong feeling of a single Niederrhein area (the old territories of Kleve/Kleef, J?lich/Gullik/Juliers and Heinsberg). So it became convenient to define someting uniting North and South of the ?rdinger Line (uniting Kleverl?ndish with South/East-Low-Franconian) into the Rhein-Maasl?ndish language area, cf. URL: http://home-13.tiscali-business.nl/%7Etpm09245/lang/lg/li_map/lnr.htm The new limit in the West would become the isogloss houden/halten I don't know if that is a good choice In my West-Limburgish (Vliermaal in the South of Belgian Limburg, at the East, the halten-side, of that line) Dutch / Limburgish from Vliermaal houden / hage ik houd / Ich haach (present tense) jij houdt / Dzji? hat hij houdt / Hi? hilt <-- ik hield / Ich heuil (past tense) Hope this clarifies. Regards, Roger ---------- From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. Subject: Addendum Re: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.22 (02) [E] cf. my previous message: > For the defintion of the Gete isoglosses see URL: > http://www.euro-support.be/langbel/gete.htm > I see the maps are momentarely not properly picked-up on the other page: > http://www.euro-support.be/langbel/mapget.htm > (Sorry, I will try to arrange that later tonight) This should be OK now. > The North of the Dutch province of Limburg was cut-out. The Germans West- of > the river Rhine also have a very strong feeling of a single Niederrhein > area (the old territories of Kleve/Kleef, J?lich/Gullik/Juliers and > Heinsberg). Please read: (the old territories of Kleve/Kleef, Geldern and Heinsberg). Regards, Roger ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Thanks a lot, Roger. Here just a couple of explanatory footnotes: > Kleve/Kleef English "Cleves" > Kleverl?ndish English "Cleves (region) ..." > Niederrhein English "Lower Rhine" Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 23 18:50:57 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 10:50:57 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.23 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Language varieties Roger wrote: > > Low German, dialects South of these two lines are considered High > > German. > > Limburgish is situated right in between those two dialectical lines, > > by the way. > > Let me refer to some maps on my own website(s). You will find similar > maps on other places on the web. > > The main pages start with: > http://home-13.tiscali-business.nl/%7Etpm09245/lang/langbel.htm > Pages still to move start at: > http://www.euro-support.be/langbel/langbel.htm Those maps are very nice indeed. I oversimplefied the dialectical borders between Low German and High German a bit, to make it more understandable :-) > It is my opinion much around these isoglosses has to do with politics. I agree, the entire language-dialect-issue has everything to do with politics, hasn't it? After all, why do Dutch linguists stop analyzing the so- called "Dutch dialects" right at the Dutch-German border? (!) They should know better... Why are linguists so fierce in defending the Dutch language-unity, by the way? I'm very sad (or mad?) to see a lot of linguists call Limburgish and the Low Saxon varieties of the Netherlands 'dialects of Dutch', and make that the input of their research, instead of the shared features of the language varieties on both sides of the border. Lots of things have changed for the better, though... regards! Mathieu ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Ha, die Mathieu! I quite agree with what you say above. The same applies to Northern Germany. "Low German" dialects are supposed to magically stop smack east of the German-Netherlands border. (That they nowadays stop at the Danish and Polish borders is based on fact, on the results of political events.) Being hard-pressed by Netherlands citizens having begun to participate in "Low German" literature competitions on the German side (hurray!) and by the evident closeness between the dialects on both sides of the border, some organizations in Germany at least have made some sort of consession by now referring to the dialects on the Netherlands side by the Dutch name "Nedersaksisch." It's a sort of wishy-washy compromise: quasi-acknowledgement of inclusion while avoiding offending those who still stick to the delusion that countries, ethniticities, cultures and languages do or should coincide. We have to be grateful for small blessings, I suppose. This sort of compromise solution is better than the usual rejection, spoken or silent, sometimes even hostile. We mustn't forget that Europe is a very territorial-minded region in which national ideals traditionally quash regional and minority cultures, languages and identities (oh, and beliefs). It seems to me that the majority of Europeans, including those that themselves are adversely affected by this, have been so strongly and so recently conditioned to this sort of nationalist mindset that it will take quite some effort and time to make them embrace unification in the European Union and ratification of the European Language Charter, accepting the dwindling significance of national boundaries. EU, shmee-yoo ... apparently, some people in Germany feel quite threatened by attempts at getting people to (re-)unite across borders. "Suspicious" activities include organizing contacts between Lowlands Saxon ("Low German") speakers across national borders. Also offensive are activities such as those of Lowlands-L that includes Lowlands Saxon but excludes German while putting the former into contact with its genealogically closer relatives outside Germany. Despite official recognition of the language, some people, even native speakers, in Germany seem to think that these are signs of disloyalty or treason, the tip of the iceberg of some sinister, secessionist ploy. In other words, they simply do not get it. On a certain level of consciousness they must be aware that their position is hard to defend and are likely to be eroded. This is when they show their supposed trump card: "You should be careful. Dutch-German relations are still at a very sensitive point, you know ..." -- implying that it is the people in the Netherlands that are the problem. While I do not doubt that there are still plenty of Netherlanders that aren't exactly in love with Germany, I personally have *never* experienced rejection of the idea to increase Lowlands Saxon contacts and collaboration on the part of Lowlands Saxon speakers and writers in the Netherlands, and this involves many people, ages 19 to 84. I have experienced rejection and other sorts of kneejerk reaction only from Germans. I can certainly accept people's personal hesitance with new ideas and their nationalism (as long as it does not involve victimization). What I cannot accept are smoke screens that involve blaming others as an excuse for one's own opinions. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 24 15:21:36 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 07:21:36 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.24 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Steven Hanson Subject: Language Varieties I agree, the entire language-dialect-issue has everything to do with politics, hasn't it? regards! Mathieu It seems to me that the idea of there being a difference between language and dialect is worthless from a linguistic viewpoint. I like to keep in mind that 1) every language is a dialect, and every dialect is a language; 2) a language is a dialect with an army (as has been mentioned before); and 3) Norwegian is Danish spoken in Swedish. All of this serves to show how un-linguistically oriented the idea of dialect and language division is. ---------- From: Pyt Berg Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.23 (01) [E] Dear all, I have to wonder how many of you anglo-saxons truly speak another language such as Dutch? Before "lowering" a language like Dutch to a set of "mechanistic parts". I suggest you go and read some books on the human side of interaction between countries, one's that cover Culture and History. The last contributor who I beleive is German has a far better understanding of the Dutch who have an rather exceptional record for TOLERANCE and understanding of others than many countries. I suggest you read the book entitled " The Island at the centre of the World", and then The Rise and Fall of the Dutch Republic by J Israel. Good luck en Lees Smakelik! Pieter. ---------- From: Helge Tietz Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.23 (01) [E] I can only agree to those comments about nationl borders and languages. In 1989 I sent an article to various local and national German newspapers with the aim to provoke a discussion about "(German-)Reunification - of course?". I moderately mentioned the fact that I am well understood when speaking Low Saxon in the Netherlands and even as far as Flanders while hardly anyone will understand me in Munich or Dresden; there the local people probably believed me to be a foreigner. I asked provokingly "Where is my home then? I am understood in my mother-tongue in Brugge but not in Dresden". The only newspapers to print it were our local Danish newspaper in Flensborg and the local German newspaper. The national newspapers weren't interested in the issue at all, at a time when they themselves were full of united-fatherland romanticism. Many local people supported my idea of cultural borders running conversely to national borders, but the national newspapers and organizations obviously found the idea inconceivable. To doubt the hitherto national cultural identity of the German National State was obviously unbearable to people who should have known better incl. those politicians from the Green party who had the promotion of multi-culturalism as one of their flag-ships. The consequence was that I felt even more alienated from the German State as a whole and could only revert to our Danish-minded family tradition and see myself since then truely and only as a "Sydslesviger". Regards Helge ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 24 17:01:16 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 09:01:16 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.24 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Folks, When I first came across the Scots adjective _draigletie_ 'bedraggled', 'raggety', 'unsightly (from use/wear)', it was like meeting an old acquaintance. I wonder why this is, and perhaps you can help me to find out. Sure, I could have made a mental connection between it and English "draggle," "bedraggled," etc., but I doubt it. In fact, I was so sure that there was the English cognate *"dragglety" that I was surprised to find no such word in English dictionaries. My theory now is that I heard this word used in American and/or Australian dialects, probably based on Scottish English, if not derived from Scots directly. My question thus is if you know of the use of this word in English dialects other than those of Scotland, and, if so, what dialects these are. (I would not be surprised to find it in Northumbrian, given the closeness to Scots of the dialects of that region.) Incidentally, English "draggle" and "draggled" do not appear before the 16th century (then usually spelled , etc., i.e., very Scots-like), which makes me wonder if it is a Scots or Northumbrian loan. The earliest known occurrence of English _bedraggle(d)_ (corresponding to Scots _draigle_, _draigletie_) seems to be from the early 18th century ("Poor Patty Blount, no more be seen Bedraggled in my walks so green," (_Oxford English Dictionary_). These words are related to (_dra?an_ >) "drag" and "draw," with cognates in virtually all Germanic varieties (usually connoting 'to carry'), but I do not think that this is terribly significant within the context of this particular discussion. (Though within a phonological context, Heiko, please note that "draw" is another example of the /g/ > /w/ shift we talked about.) Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 24 19:00:55 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 11:00:55 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.24 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming Subject: "Resources" [E] Some good news here! The Scottish National Dictionary (SND) and the Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue (DOST) are now online at http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/ Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 24 20:17:15 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 12:17:15 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.24 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Tom Maguire Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.24 (01) [E] Lowlands-L wrote: > Dear all, > > I have to wonder how many of you anglo-saxons truly speak another language > such as > Dutch? Before "lowering" a language like Dutch to a set of "mechanistic > parts". I suggest you go and read some books on the human side of > interaction between countries, one's that cover Culture and History. > > The last contributor who I beleive is German has a far better understanding > of the > Dutch who have an rather exceptional record for TOLERANCE and understanding > of others than many countries. I suggest you read the book entitled " The > Island at the centre of the World", and then The Rise and Fall of the Dutch > Republic by J Israel. > > Good luck en Lees Smakelik! > Pieter. Hello All, The use of the word anglo-saxons has always intrigued me. I believe they were a tribe from the coastal area of Northern Europe, (Flanders and Holland?) who crossed the North Sea and made their way west across England. Haven't seen many around in my trips through England, but many people persist to refer to them as if the tribe still existed in the U.K., Australia, New Zealand, Canada or The U.S. I'd also like to believe that the Dutch are very tolerant. The ones who settled in South Africa must have been from a different tribe. Or were they anglo-saxons? Generalisations on this scale surely lead to precious little information. Regards, Tam -- Carpe Diem. -Visit Nlp in Education http://www.xtec.es/~jmaguire -Join Nlp-Education mailto:nlp-education-subscribe at yahoogroups.com -Join Seal-Spain mailto:seal-spain-subscribe at yahoogroups.com ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 24 21:08:24 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 13:08:24 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2004.03.24 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Angie Foley Subject: "Nursery Rhyme" I'm looking for the right words and translation of the following nursery rhyme, or at least I think it's some type of children's verse. My Grandfather used to put us on his knee, bounce us up and down and sing the following (this is as much as I can remember): Pa, pa, pa, pa palli riddem falli riddem bunyam cow _ _ _ _ _ (I can't remember the last stanza) My great grandparents were from the Mecklenburg/Rostock/Schwerin area of Germany. I'd LOVE it if someone could help ! Thank you very much!! ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Songs Hi, Angie! Welcome to Lowlands-L! It's nice to meet you. I do not actually know that song, but I can sort of make out what it means. If I am right, I would guess that the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialect in question is not from Mekelnborg/Mecklenburg (which is where the city of Swerin/Schwerin is) but of Western Pomerania (which is where the city of Rostock is), possibly from farther east, now Northern Poland. I am basing this on features such as _-en_ > _-e_ and _nd_ > _nj_, also found in Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Low German, "Plautdietsch"), which originated at the Vistula Delta of Western Prussia, now Northern Poland. What may make identification more difficult is the possibility of this being in part children's babble. Roughly reconstructed (from your use of English spelling to render sounds you remember, I assume -- * German-based spelling, + English translation): > Pa, pa, pa, pa palli Pappa, Pappa Pale * Pappa, Pappa Pale (~ Pole), + Poppa, Poppa (~ Papa, Papa) Paulie, [could also be onomatopoetic: "pa, pa, pa, pa" for a horse's hoofs] > riddem falli ridd den vale(n), * ritt den (~ dem) Fahle(n) (~ Fohle(n)), + rides the foalie (= little foal), > riddem bunyam cow ridd dey bunde (~ bunje) kou. * ritt de bunte (~ bunje) Koh (~ Kauh). + rides the spotted cow. In German and Lowlands Saxon, _bunt_ (~ _bund_) 'multicolored' tends to mean "spotted" with reference to animals, especially dogs and cows. (So a Holstein cow, which is black and white, is a _bunte kou_.) I hope this has been of some help and you will receive further help, Angie. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 24 22:53:47 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 14:53:47 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2004.03.24 (06) [E/LS/German] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.MAR.2004 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Jan Strunk Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.23 (01) [E] I've just searched the internet to find related "Hoppe, Hoppe, Reiter" rhymes: Here are the results: http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/ernst/appelsch/appel12.htm Inzwischen befinden wir uns bereits bei Nr. 2 des Programms; Appelschnut ist zu Pferde gestiegen. Das Pferd bin ich. Die Aufgabe besteht nun darin, die Literatur der Reiterlieder zu durchhopsen, zum Beispiel ?Hoppe hoppe Reiter? und ?Hopp hopp Reiterlein? und so weiter, eine v?terliche Leistung, die nur derjenige w?rdigen kann, der wei?, was Embonpoint hei?t. Dabei gibt es Literaturwerke, die mindestens sechsmal wiederholt werden m?ssen, zum Beispiel: Zuck zuck zuck noh M?hlen Roswitha sitt op't F?hlen, Trudel op de bunte Koh Un Rasmus op'n Swanz bitoo. Rid wi all noh M?hlen. ?Goden Dag, Froo M?llerin, Wo sett wi unsen Sack denn hin?? ?Buten op de Trepp, Mang all de bunten S?ck'. Morgen geiht de M?hl; Denn geiht se: Rumpumpel rumpumpel rumpumpel rumpumpel.? (in infinitum.) http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/groth/voergoer/voergo89.htm To Moel Hutt Hutt hutt na Moeleken, Hanne op dat Foeleken, Wite op de bunte Koh - So rid se beid na Moelken to. Hotte nach der M?hlen, Johann auf dem F?llen, Luischen auf der bunten Kuh - So reiten sie beide der M?hle zu. Haven't found more.... Best greetings! Jan Strunk jstrunk at stanford.edu ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Songs Thanks a lot, Jan. Good one! I know the German song "Hoppe hoppe Reiter" quite well from my childhood, and in the meantime I have delighted many a child with it, including children who didn't understand the words. :-) Hoppe, hoppe Reiter! Wenn er f?llt, dann schreit er, F?llt er in den Graben, Fressen ihn die Raben, F?llt er in den Sumpf, Macht der Reiter plumps! (Yes, there are many versions of this, but this is the one I know). My translation: Hop, hop, hop, hop, rider. Should he fall, he'd cry. Should he fall into the ditch The ravens would eat him. Should he fall into the swamp The rider'd take a tumble! You sit a child on your knees, facing you, bobbing him or her up and down, holding his or her hands (or bracing him or her with your hands on his or her back if he or she is very little). At the sound of the last word of the last line you let his or her back fall backward, giving him or her the "scare" of the tumble (which all kids love). It isn't terribly different from an Mother Goose rhyme: A farmer went trotting Upon his gray mare; Bumpety, bumpety, bump! With his daughter behind him, So rosy and fair; Lumpety, lumpety, lump! A raven cried "Croak!" And they all tumbled down... Jan, I hope you don't mind me providing English "translations" for the benefit of Angie and others who don't understand. (Lowlands Saxon / Low German) > Zuck zuck zuck noh M?hlen > Roswitha sitt op't F?hlen, > Trudel op de bunte Koh > Un Rasmus op'n Swanz bitoo. > Rid wi all noh M?hlen. > ?Goden Dag, Froo M?llerin, > Wo sett wi unsen Sack denn hin?? > ?Buten op de Trepp, > Mang all de bunten S?ck'. > Morgen geiht de M?hl; > Denn geiht se: Rumpumpel rumpumpel > rumpumpel rumpumpel.? > Trotting to the mill, > Roswitha sitting on the foal, > Trudel (= Gertrud(e)) on the spotted cow > And Rasmus on the tail behind. > We?re riding to the mill. > ?Good day, Mrs. Miller. > Where should we put the bag?? > ?Outside on the stairs, > Among all the colored bags. > The mill will run tomorrow. > That?s when it will go ?Rumble, rumble, > Rumble, rumble, rumble, rumble ...? (Lowlands Saxon / Low German) Hutt Hutt hutt na Moeleken, Hanne op dat Foeleken, Wite op de bunte Koh - So rid se beid na Moelken to. (The same in German) Hotte nach der M?hlen, Johann auf dem F?llen, Luischen auf der bunten Kuh - So reiten sie beide der M?hle zu. Trotting to the mill ("millie"), Joanie on the (little) foal (~ filly), Roswitha/Lisa on the spotted cow. That?s how we?re riding off to the mill. Enjoy! Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 25 15:22:20 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:22:20 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2004.03.25 (01) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Rob Hekkers Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2004.03.24 (06) [E/LS/German] Je zou ook eens hier kunnen kijken: http://cf.hum.uva.nl/dsp/ljc/anoniem/vloten/1-07.html Hartelijke groet, Rob Hekkers ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 25 15:24:06 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:24:06 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Georg.Deutsch at esa.int Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.23 (01) [E] Dear LL-readers! Ron wrote: QUOTE .... While I do not doubt that there are still plenty of Netherlanders that aren't exactly in love with Germany, I personally have *never* experienced rejection of the idea to increase Lowlands Saxon contacts and collaboration on the part of Lowlands Saxon speakers and writers in the Netherlands, and this involves many people, ages 19 to 84. I have experienced rejection and other sorts of kneejerk reaction only from Germans. .... QUOTE It is good to read that Ron never experienced such rejections from the Netherlands. However, living in Holland, I do encounter regularly a sort of uneasiness with Dutch once they are confronted with the notion that the border between The Netherlands and Germany is not a clear cut language border. The common Lowland heritage of the two countries often are not known, and if known, often on purpose ignored or even "verdr?ngt" (repressed), I believe. This is, to my experience, true for a considerably big part of the population here. I would rather think that this attitude is not so much related to the fact that "still plenty of Netherlanders that aren't exactly in love with Germany" but more generally with the - in my perception remarkably widely spread - half conscious feeling, that country (state) and a language area should be the same. As I believe, this is leading to the tendency to e.g. expect or even to "want" that "Austrian" must be a own vernacular and not just "German" and, even more remarkable, the tendency not to accept "Flemish" as the Dutch in Belgium, but to inssist that Flemish is a (close, but) distinct language. (I see also in this context the habit to sub-title in Dutch TV "Flemish" movies.) I wonder, if I am the only one who sees this that way. In any case, for me was the lack of acceptance here of the relation of Dutch with Low Saxon (as long you don't speak with people with special interest or training in languages) a reason to look for LL-L. best reagrds Georg Deutsch ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 25 16:09:41 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 08:09:41 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (023) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Language varieties Georg Deutsch wrote: > even more remarkable, the tendency not to accept "Flemish" as the Dutch > in Belgium, but to inssist that Flemish is a (close, but) distinct > language. (I see also in this context the habit to sub-title in > Dutch TV "Flemish" movies.) > > I wonder, if I am the only one who sees this that way. The subtitling of a Flemish television show is indeed one of the mysteries in Dutch television :-) If certain Flemish dialects or heavy accented parts were subtitled it would be understandable, but no: it is clear Dutch with just a little bit of Flemish accent in it...!!! Anyway, I have hardly ever come across any Dutchman stating that Flemish is a distinct language. Mostly you hear stuff like: "Belgium is very nice, and also very easy because you can speak Dutch, even in Brussels!" In the other side, I doubt that the average Dutchman knows of the existance of a Low Saxon language group, let alone the fact that this language crosses the German border all the way to Danmark and Poland! regards, Mathieu ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Thanks, Georg and Mathieu. I suppose that what you related to us confirms that in Europe four things are still widespread in this regard: (1) ignorance regarding diversity, (2) discomfort at the thought that nation, ethnicity, culture and language rarely coincide (in detail), (3) that diversity is not a burden but an asset, (4) and that cross-border sharing of heritage (minority or otherwise) does not need to threaten national integrity but can be utilized for everyone's benefit (as long as this is done without chauvinism and territorial designs). In my opinion, this can only be changed by means of educational efforts, not just on regional and national levels but on an international level. Although only on a modest scale, this is what Lowlands-L is really about. At the very least, it brings folks together and allows them to discover what they have in common. Perhaps it is a good sign that some people feel uneasy about our goals and activities. Might it be a sign that we are doing something right, are even getting somewhere? Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 25 16:58:19 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 08:58:19 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.25 (04) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Folks, The National Library of Scotland has a website very well worth repeated visits (http://www.nls.uk/). One of the presentations I wholehearted recommend is calle "Scotland Pages" (http://www.nls.uk/scotlandspages/), and excellent source for matters concerning Scotland's written history. I am particularly taken by the in my opinion superb Robert Burns presentation (http://www.nls.uk/burns/). The pages (accessible via the menu on the right) come with special bits of information and some with sound snippets. You can access those by clicking on the icons underneath the main heading of a page. This well-designed presentation certainly tempts me to travel to Edinburgh to visit National Library of Scotland. Bravo! Bi fegs, weel duin, fowk! Whitwey no parallel versions in Scots an Gaelic an aw? That wad make the wab steid trulins Scottish an wad shawcase the hamewart tongues o Bonnie Scotland tae the warld an aw. An wantin unner "Scots Abroad" (http://www.nls.uk/catalogues/online/scotsabroad/) is a wee jot anent Scots sattlin in "Prussia" (thir days Northren Poland and Kaliningrad, Russia). Aye, an a page anent "Flemish" sattlers in Scotland an aw. Guidwull tae aw! Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 25 21:14:30 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 13:14:30 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (05) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.24 (04) [E] >>From the Original Message ----- From: "Lowlands-L" To: Sent: 24 March 2004 10:17 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.24 (04) [E] Dear All: Alighting on the throwaway line on the Afrikaners quoted below, I note that others have mentioned before that if the surviving ethnic wealth & cultural variety of neighbouring races & peoples - their mere survival - is any indicator, then the Afrikaner measures very well against other colonising races from North-Western Europe. Consider e.g. the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Ceylon, Batavia, South Molucca, etc. By the way, we call ourselves 'Diets'. is this pertinent? As - as it were - among us Anglo-Saxons (Remember, the English were culturally isolated & alienated by the Norman-French, as the Scots ((a thrawn race)) were not). Even so, in the English Sailor's Argot all seamen from the NW European Littoral were dubbed 'Dutch' - German, Nederlands or Flemish citizenship was simply not an issue. I think they were correct. Is this not more pertinent to our concerns with language than the trend of this discussion? Let us get back to Diets! > I'd also like to believe that the Dutch are very tolerant. The ones who > settled in South Africa must have been from a different tribe. Or were > they anglo-saxons? Yrs Respectfully, M Dreyer. ---------- From: rick denkers Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (02) [E] Moyen Georg, > However, living in Holland, I do encounter regularly a sort of uneasiness > with Dutch once they are confronted with the notion that the border between > The Netherlands and Germany is not a clear cut language border. > The common Lowland heritage of the two countries often are not known, and if > known, often on purpose ignored or even "verdr?ngt" (repressed), I believe. > This is, to my experience, true for a considerably big part of the > population > here. With living in Holland i do presume that you mean one of the provinces Holland . People from the West are most certainly ignoring the fact that germans and Dutch people are from the same ancestors. They do like to see themselves as a "unique nation" with no ties to what is nowadays known as Germany. For us, the people in the east its a whole different ballgame. We do speak (allmost) the same language as the German people on the other side of the border , and a lot of us have german ancestors (Where i live there are whole communities with a German background). In fact they are sometimes litterally our neighbours. So we are aware of our roots. We are not exactly "in love" with the people from the West. Much in the same way as that the People from the West have against Germans..... But most of all it is that we are considered as "boertjes" with our funny accents..... And "boertjes" is not ment as a compliment... But do bear in mind that there is also the "Big brother, younger bother" effect. A few weeks ago i was enjoying a holliday in Denmark and to my suprise the Danes do seem to have the same attitude against the Germans as the Dutch have. > but more generally with the - in my perception remarkably widely spread - > half conscious feeling, that country (state) and a language area should be > the same. I do think that it is quite handy to speak one language. But i would rather see it as an "esperanto" with respect for local languages. And that is regrettably not the case in the Netherlands. It is that we are s Why is it possible to accept that Frisian is a language and Limburgish or Grunnegs not? > As I believe, this is leading to the tendency to e.g. expect or even to > "want" that "Austrian" must be a own vernacular and not just "German" and, > even more remarkable, the tendency not to accept "Flemish" as the Dutch in > Belgium, but to inssist that Flemish is a (close, but) distinct language. (I > see also in this context the habit to sub-title in Dutch TV "Flemish" > movies.) Flemish is not for all Dutch people easy to follow. For us Notherners for instance.. You can also look at it from a positive point of view. The relation between the Dutch and the Flemish has allways been a "difficult" relation. Thatswhy , when it comes to the Flemish, Dutch people try to be as diplomatic as they can be. > In any case, for me was the lack of acceptance here of the relation of Dutch > with Low Saxon (as long you don't speak with people with special interest or > training in languages) a reason to look for LL-L. Welkom! Hier zal niemand ontkennen dat er banden bestaan tussen het saksisch en het Nederlands ;-] En ik ben in ieder geval zeer zeker geen Linguist. Grout'n, Rick Denkers ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Thu Mar 25 23:07:39 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:07:39 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.25 (06) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.MAR.2004 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze??uws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. Subject: Resources: Afrikaans literature It is hard to find modern literature in Afrikaans in Belgian bookshops. Gramadoelas is a specialized importer in Belgium. I get some announcements from time to time, as e.g. the one below. I think the whole thing is run by just one lady. She participated at the Antwerp Boekenbeurs a couple of years ago and I was amazed by the variety of Afrikaans books she had in stock at that moment. It was courageous of her, since several years before the old importer of Afrikaans literature Meyers & Trefois was kicked-out of the Boekenbeurs and saw his stand destroyed by some leftist youngsters. At that time, for some people, promoting Afrikaans literature was synonym with promoting apartheid. Just for info. I have no shares in Gramadoelas. The first book below is clearly in English. Regards, Roger PS. I think their website is a bit neglected. It is at: http://user.online.be/gramadoelas/ ----- Original Message ----- From: gramadoelas To: roger.thijs at euro-support.be Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 10:20 PM Subject: leestips van Gramadoelas! Beste klant, De jongste maanden zijn er opnieuw een aantal interessante boeken in Zuid-Afrika verschenen. Warm aanbevolen zijn: A Change of Tongue door Antjie Krog, uitgegeven bij Random House, Johannesburg 2003 (27???) Antjie Krog is natuurlijk geen onbekende meer. Zowel met haar po??zie ??? haar laatste bundel Kleur kom nooit alleen nie was een onge??venaard succes - als met haar proza heeft ze een ijzersterke reputatie opgebouwd. Onlangs verscheen A Change of Tongue, de opvolger van het ontstellende Country of My Skull. Het is ook letterlijk een vervolg erop. In dit lijvige werk van 376 pagina???s ontgint Antjie Krog het transformatieproces in Zuid-Afrika. Het land is als een tongvis die om te kunnen overleven een radicale transformatie ondergaat. Eenzelfde verandering moet Zuid-Afrika doormaken. Het land van het verleden dat in Country of My Skull in al zijn ontluisterende gruwzaamheid onthuld werd, moet verlaten worden. Kern van de omwenteling is de ruimte die aan de ander geboden wordt, de gelegenheid die hem geboden wordt om zijn verhaal te doen. Antjie Krog laat de stemmen van haar land aan het woord komen. Ze vertellen hun verhalen waardoorheen Antjie Krog haar eigen verhaal weeft. Het boek wordt daardoor tot een rijkgeschakeerd moza??ek waarin de hoofdtoon die van warme menselijkheid is. A Change of Tongue is een gepassioneerd pleidooi van een schrijfster die zich in haar literaire werk maar ook in haar leven onverdroten blijft inzetten voor de totstandkoming van een nieuw, kleurenblind Zuid-Afrika. Een overstelpend en aangrijpend boek. Die buiteveld van John Miles, uitgegeven bij Human & Rousseau, Kaapstad 2003 (19???) Met Die buiteveld verbreekt John Miles een jarenlange stilte. Zijn vorige roman Kroniek uit die doofpot verscheen in 1991 en maakte toen heel wat ophef. Ondertussen heeft Miles zich teruggetrokken op een ???plaas??? in het Kaapse binnenland. Waar Kroniek uit die doofpot een uitermate scherpe aanklacht tegen de apartheid is, behandelt Die buiteveld de complexe problematiek van de schuld en de verantwoordelijkheid van het individu. De roman speelt dus in op trauma???s waarmee het huidige Zuid-Afrika te kampen heeft maar dan op een onrechtstreekse manier omdat de plaats van handeling grotendeels Portugal is. Het hoofdpersonage is een zekere Smerski, een eenzaat die zijn achtergrond, waarin er een aantal minder fraaie dingen gebeurd zijn, maar met mondjesmaat prijsgeeft. Chris van der Merwe vat de thematiek van de roman als volgt samen: ???Die buiteveld is ???n radikale bevestiging van individualisme en ???n uiterste protes teen alle vorme van onderdrukking van die vryheid van die individu. Smerski s?? nee vir alle meesternarratiewe, vir di?? van apartheid sowel as vir di?? van die nuwe heersers; hy verwerp alle vorme van kollektiwiteit wat die vryheid van die enkeling ondermyn.??? Over het boek zijn de meningen verdeeld. Volgens Ampie Coetzee is Die buiteveld de sterkste roman die Miles geschreven heeft. Willie Burger is een andere mening toegedaan. Hij is van oordeel dat John Miles in deze roman een conservatieve ideologische koers vaart: ???Die roman lewer ???n belangrike maar problematiese bydrae tot die debat oor groeps- en individuele identiteit en morele verantwoordelikheid.??? Het debat is nog niet gesloten. Tot verhaal kom door Abraham H. De Vries, uitgegeven bij Human & Rousseau, Kaapstad 2003 (16,50???) De jongste verhalenbundel van Abraham De Vries is een hoogvlieger. Abraham De Vries is gezouten in het vak; deze bundel is reeds zijn achttiende. En opnieuw toont de schrijver zijn meesterlijke kunnen, zoals reeds uit de ingenieuze titel Tot verhaal kom duidelijk blijkt. Abraham De Vries slaagt er als geen ander in om een welbepaalde atmosfeer te scheppen: melancholie, verlangen, de hoop op een mirakel, spijt, het onverbiddelijke voorbijgaan van het leven enz. De meeste verhalen spelen zich in het nieuwe Zuid-Afrika af. De personages staan er niet onverdeeld positief tegenover. De Vries onderzoekt wat het betekent de oude zekerheden te verliezen en met een andere realiteit geconfronteerd te worden. Het besef van onvolkomenheid en gemis, van onvermogen en onmacht is alomtegenwoordig. Dit zijn verhalen ? la nouvelle cuisine: niet de kwantiteit maar de kwaliteit overweegt. Met hun geraffineerde tekstuur, hun subtiele gelaagdheid en hun stilistische verfijning zullen ze ongetwijfeld het smaakpalet van de meest gesofisticeerde lezer kunnen bevredigen. Vergenoeg door Marita van der Vyver, uitgegeven bij Tafelberg, Kaapstad 2003 (18,50???) De jongste roman van Marita van der Vyver, die met Griet Skryf ???n sprokie, Wegkomkans en Griet kom weer haar schrijverssporen verdiend heeft, is een lekker-lees-boek, hoewel deze karakterisering misschien niet helemaal accuraat is. Daarvoor is de stof die behandeld wordt toch wel wat te zwaarwichtig. Ad??le Bothma lijdt aan kanker. Ze woont in Vergenoeg, een onooglijk dorpje. Haar twee dochters, San en Bella, staan haar in haar laatste weken bij. Dit leidt uiteraard tot het uitpluizen van de verhouding tussen moeder en dochters en tussen de dochters onderling. De grote levensthema???s komen aan de orde zonder dat de roman evenwel onder de ondraaglijk zwaarte van het bestaan bezwijkt. Van der Vyver weet als geen ander boeiende personages op te roepen en een onderhoudend verhaal te schrijven. Aangename lectuur zonder meer. Met vriendelijke groeten, Vera gramadoelas at online.be ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 26 00:31:01 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 16:31:01 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.MAR.2004 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Hondshoven Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (05) [D/E] Hello, I was struck in the text below by the sentence: "we call ourselves Diets". I can't imagine anyone in Flemish Belgium and in the Netherlands today who would call his language "Diets" . This an historical term denoting the tongue spoken in the Middle Ages by the Flemish and the Dutch. To people of my generation Diets is, to say the least, a suspect word. It is a (politically) "loaded" term, since it was - in the thirties and during the second world war - a preferential word with ultra-rightist people striving for a Flemish secession from Belgium or for a union of Flanders and the Netherlands in a kind of "new order". Diets is a word that has unfortunately been abused and as such has fallen out of favour. I am under the impression that today even right-wing people are reticent to use it. It goes without saying that I do not want to imply anything improper in connection with the author of the text below. Roger H. -------Original Message------- From: lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET Date: Thursday, March 25, 2004 22:14:44 To: LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (05) [D/E] From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.24 (04) [E] >From the Original Message ----- From: "Lowlands-L" To: Sent: 24 March 2004 10:17 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.24 (04) [E] Dear All: Alighting on the throwaway line on the Afrikaners quoted below, I note that others have mentioned before that if the surviving ethnic wealth & cultural variety of neighbouring races & peoples - their mere survival - is any indicator, then the Afrikaner measures very well against other colonising races from North-Western Europe. Consider e.g. the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Ceylon, Batavia, South Molucca, etc. By the way, we call ourselves 'Diets'. is this pertinent? As - as it were - among us Anglo-Saxons (Remember, the English were culturally isolated & alienated by the Norman-French, as the Scots ((a thrawn race)) were not). Even so, in the English Sailor's Argot all seamen from the NW European Littoral were dubbed 'Dutch' - German, Nederlands or Flemish citizenship was simply not an issue. I think they were correct. Is this not more pertinent to our concerns with language than the trend of this discussion? Let us get back to Diets! > I'd also like to believe that the Dutch are very tolerant. The ones who > settled in South Africa must have been from a different tribe. Or were > they anglo-saxons? Yrs Respectfully, M Dreyer. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 26 15:19:53 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 07:19:53 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.26 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: ezinsser at tiscali.co.za Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (07) [E] Hello all, With reference to Roger Hondshoven's comments on Mark Dreyer's reference to being 'Diets': The Afrikaans language has its origins in the 'Nederdietse' grouping and you are quite right that this word has medieval roots, as probably our surnames. You might know too that the root form is also prevalent in the names of languages, such as Plautdietsch, Schwiizerd?tsch/Schwyzert?tsch, as in names of churches such as Nederduits So & So. It's unclear to me what is so 'loaded' and why you should be so easily 'struck'. Cultural history, as diversity, is a good thing and should be embraced with courage :-) Sterkte, Elsie Zin?er, > I was struck in the text below by the sentence: "we call ourselves > Diets". I can't imagine anyone in Flemish Belgium and in the Netherlands today who would call his language "Diets" . This an historical term denot> ing > the tongue spoken in the Middle Ages by the Flemish and the Dutch. To peo> ple > of my generation Diets is, to say the least, a suspect word. It is a > (politically) "loaded" term, since it was - in the thirties and during th> e > second world war - a preferential word with ultra-rightist people strivi> ng > for a Flemish secession from Belgium or for a union of Flanders and the > Netherlands in a kind of "new order". Diets is a word that has unfortunat> ely > been abused and as such has fallen out of favour. I am under the impressi> on > that today even right-wing people are reticent to use it. It goes without > saying that I do not want to imply anything improper in connection with t> he > author of the text below. > > Roger H. ---------- From: ?ric Plourde Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (07) [E] Greetings all, This thread has become quite interesting to me as I see that language and identity are still intertwined in humans' psyche and even in people who vie for diversity of language in a political entity that is supposed to become a more plurilingual society i.e. the European Union. The bare facts is that there existed before the independence of Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany a dialectal continuum in Northern Europe (on the Southern Coast of the North Sea) where mutual comprehension was far greater with the contiguous dialects. Time has changed the situation where the dialects comprised in Northern germany were almost wiped out, whereas some dialects became national languages (Netherlands and Belgium). What strikes me in this thread is the quick jump to equate language and ethnic background (I have seen the term "race" used once) as if the "genetic" links between the various Germanic language family and the "genetic" links between the people living in the states with Germanic tongues as official languages are one of the same. We have to always bear in mind that there has been immense changes in the population of Europe since that peninsula (for me Europe is not a continent, just a part of Eurasia) is easily travelled from West to East and East to West. Also, where the Germanic language speakers have left their mark, linguistically, ethnically and economically, on all of the countries bordering the North Sea/Baltic sea area, diversity still prevails. As for people speaking the languages and dialects of the "Lowlands" continuum, let's hope that distance does not hinder their mutual comprehension and that their different genetic background (Afrikaner, Indonesian ascendency, Turkish, etc.) can be used to fuel more interrogations and less dissent. Thanks and Happy Spring. Eric > From: Roger Hondshoven > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (05) [D/E] > > Hello, > > I was struck in the text below by the sentence: "we call ourselves > Diets". I can't imagine anyone in Flemish Belgium and in the Netherlands > today who would call his language "Diets" . This an historical term denoting > the tongue spoken in the Middle Ages by the Flemish and the Dutch. To people > of my generation Diets is, to say the least, a suspect word. It is a > (politically) "loaded" term, since it was - in the thirties and during the > second world war - a preferential word with ultra-rightist people striving > for a Flemish secession from Belgium or for a union of Flanders and the > Netherlands in a kind of "new order". Diets is a word that has unfortunately > been abused and as such has fallen out of favour. I am under the impression > that today even right-wing people are reticent to use it. It goes without > saying that I do not want to imply anything improper in connection with the > author of the text below. > > Roger H. ---------- From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.25 (06) [D/E] It is hard to find modern literature in Afrikaans in Belgian bookshops. Hello, Roger and list, how close is Afrikaans to Dutch, and how close are they to Flemish? Ben ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 26 16:05:21 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 08:05:21 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.26 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Georg.Deutsch at esa.int Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (05) [D/E] Bedankt, Rick, voor je reaktie! >With living in Holland i do presume that you mean one of the provinces >Holland . yes, indeed. I was more or less even referring to the Randstad. I do realize that the attitudes are quite different in the eastern parts of the Netherlands. >Flemish is not for all Dutch people easy to follow. For us Notherners for >instance.. Sure, but what I had in mind was not Flemish but standard Dutch as spoken in Belgium, i.e. with hardly a difference to ABN of the Netherlands. If you forget about few expressions (like 'hesp' vs 'ham' etc. or 'vast en zeker' vs 'zeker en vast') the remaining difference is mainly the melody of the parole. The subtitling such texts, as I believe, is therefore not (only) triggered by a potential lack of understanding in Holland AND Drenthe but by other considerations. groeten Georg ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 26 17:48:22 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 09:48:22 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.26 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (07) [E] > From: Roger Hondshoven > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (05) [D/E] > I was struck in the text below by the sentence: "we call ourselves > Diets". I can't imagine anyone in Flemish Belgium and in the Netherlands > today who would call his language "Diets" . I think the "Dietsche Warande en Belfort" is still one of the leading magazines for literature in Dutch. cf. Website: http://www.dwb.be/dwb/home.html Regards, Roger ---------- From: David Pattyn Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (07) [E] Hello, in reaction Rogers Text about "Diets". >>From time to time I do call myself a "Dietscher" or the language that I speak "Dietsch". I see no problem in that since my mothertongue is "Westvlams" which is a flemisch tongue that is stil spoken verry alike as was spoken in the Middle Ages. What the political load of that word is, is not relevant. Another thing that i noticed in tis discussion about Low-German is that Linguist trie to devide the dialects in smooth borders. That is not so easy to do. As I look to the resemblance of "Westvlams" with Low-Saxon, or even with modern German, and against that I see the differences between "Westvlams" and modern Dutch, then I can hardly see "Westvlams" as a dutch dialect. Also I would say that "Westvlams" is a dialect with at least saxon roots, so it would do not much right to call "Westvlams" a Low-Franconian dialiect. Another thing is that West-, Middle- and East-Germany since the Middle Ages was settled down with People from Holand and Flanders. And that even til 1945 in Prussia, K?nigsberg, a dialect was spoken that was verry simelar to Flemish. Kind regards, David > From: Roger Hondshoven > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (05) [D/E] > > Hello, > > I was struck in the text below by the sentence: "we call ourselves > Diets". I can't imagine anyone in Flemish Belgium and in the Netherlands > today who would call his language "Diets" . This an historical term denoting > the tongue spoken in the Middle Ages by the Flemish and the Dutch. To people > of my generation Diets is, to say the least, a suspect word. It is a > (politically) "loaded" term, since it was - in the thirties and during the > second world war - a preferential word with ultra-rightist people striving > for a Flemish secession from Belgium or for a union of Flanders and the > Netherlands in a kind of "new order". Diets is a word that has unfortunately > been abused and as such has fallen out of favour. I am under the impression > that today even right-wing people are reticent to use it. It goes without > saying that I do not want to imply anything improper in connection with the > author of the text below. > > Roger H. ---------- From: Luc Hellinckx Subject: Language varieties Beste ?ric, When you wrote: >This thread has become quite interesting to me as I see that language and >identity are still intertwined in humans' psyche and even in people who vie >for diversity of language in a political entity that is supposed to become a >more plurilingual society i.e. the European Union. I had to think involuntarily of how much time (many centuries, if not millennia) it cost western, European society to segregate religious and governmental authority. This was accomplished roughly 200 years ago in many European countries thanks to the (then) "modern" concept of statebuilding that accelerated this evolution. So if we want to discriminate now between "language" and "identity", I think that we need a new kind of "citizenship" that updates old-style membership of a nation. I have this feeling that computers will play an important role in the creation of this new (global) "community", as they allow information to spread much more quickly than ever before and on a wider scale. In this respect, LL-list is truly a step in the right direction, as it transcends boundaries of many kinds...let's be grateful that we have such a visionary guy like R.H.! Kind greetings, Luc Hellinckx ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 26 23:02:21 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:02:21 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.26 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu van Woerkom Subject: Language varieties In addition to our discussion last week about language varieties around the Dutch-German border, and the classification of these language varieties, take a look at this page (about Limburgish, only available in Dutch): http://taal.phileon.nl/lim_rijnlands.php regards, Mathieu ---------- From: Roger Hondshoven Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.26 (03) [E] Hello Roger T, Dietsche Warande is indisputably a respectable magazine founded in 1855. But "Diets" is only a part of a title. It does by no means imply that it is a word currently used in present-day spoken language. It certainl is not. Please also see my reply to Elsie's message. Regards Roger H Hello Elsie, Thank you for your reaction. I am fully aware that "Diets" lies at the origin of language names such as Duits, Deutsch, Nederduits, Plattdiets and Dutch. The meaning originally was Germanic and (in a more restrictive sense) the idiom spoken in te Lowlands. But today it is mainly used as an historical term. The word has been practically extinct since approximately the 17th century. Only in the latter half of the 19th and in the first decades of the 20th centuries was it reintroduced in Flemish circles promoting the use of the vernacular in the Northern part of Belgium. It was used both in Flanders and in the Netherlands by the Groot Nederlandse beweging, a movement striving for the reunion of Flanders and the Netherlands. It became a favourite in the national-socialist vocabulary in the thirties and during the 2nd World War. You will appreciate that it was seen as a symbol of the collaboration with the Germans and that as such it was scorned by the large majority of the population. After the war it was completely discredited. No amount of nostalgia will bring it back to life. Kind regards Roger H. -------Original Message------- From: lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET Date: Friday, March 26, 2004 18:48:32 To: LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.26 (03) [E] ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu van Woerkom Subject: Language varieties In addition to our discussion last week about language varieties around the Dutch-German border, and the classification of these language varieties, take a look at this page (about Limburgish, only available in Dutch): http://taal.phileon.nl/lim_rijnlands.php regards, Mathieu ---------- From: Roger Hondshoven Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.26 (03) [E] Hello Roger T, Dietsche Warande is indisputably a respectable magazine founded in 1855. But "Diets" is only a part of a title. It does by no means imply that it is a word currently used in present-day spoken language. It certainl is not. Please also see my reply to Elsie's message. Regards Roger H Hello Elsie, Thank you for your reaction. I am fully aware that "Diets" lies at the origin of language names such as Duits, Deutsch, Nederduits, Plattdiets and Dutch. The meaning originally was Germanic and (in a more restrictive sense) the idiom spoken in te Lowlands. But today it is mainly used as an historical term. The word has been practically extinct since approximately the 17th century. Only in the latter half of the 19th and in the first decades of the 20th centuries was it reintroduced in Flemish circles promoting the use of the vernacular in the Northern part of Belgium. It was used both in Flanders and in the Netherlands by the Groot Nederlandse beweging, a movement striving for the reunion of Flanders and the Netherlands. It became a favourite in the national-socialist vocabulary in the thirties and during the 2nd World War. You will appreciate that it was seen as a symbol of the collaboration with the Germans and that as such it was scorned by the large majority of the population. After the war it was completely discredited. No amount of nostalgia will bring it back to life. Kind regards Roger H. ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Fri Mar 26 23:21:01 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:21:01 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2004.03.26 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Hondshoven Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.26 (01) [E] Hello everybody, I have a problem with the encoding tool "Unicode UTF-8. I don't see how I can switch to it on my PC. Does someone have a solution. Thanks in advance. Roger ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Technica Moyen, Roger! Others may turn out to be more helpful than I can be. For now let me mention that much depends on your email program. Somewhere (usually under "View" or "Format" and equivalents) there ought to be a menu item "Encoding" (and equivalents). If Unicode UTF-8 is not specified there, you ought to be able to load it as one of the available encoding modes. (You might find this under "Tools" and "Options" (and equivalents). You ought to consult your help program and look for information under "encoding." Your program might ask you what font to load when you go into Unicode UTF-8 mode. The best font for it at the moment is Arial Unicode. It has the largest number of characters, including extended Roman (yes, including Old English and Old Saxon symbols), International Phonetic Alphabet, extended Cyrillic, extended Greek, extended Hebrew, extended Arabic, Armenian, Georgian, the major Indic scripts, Thai, Lao, Tibetan, Korean, Chinese, Japanese and numerous scientific characters. It used to be available free of charge, but now it is a part of Microsoft software packages. (I was lucky enough to have gotten it before commercialization.) The latest version of (single-spaced) Courier New is one of the so-so substitutes. Bye for now, and thanks for you participation, Roger! Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sat Mar 27 18:57:15 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 10:57:15 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2004.03.27 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Hondshoven Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2004.03.26 (05) [E] Hello Reinhard/Ron, I am most grateful for your reply and advice. I have found out why I have problems with Unicode. My default browser is Incredimail, which does not support Unicode. But since I sent my cry for help I have already switched to Outlook Express. There everything can be read. From now on I'll try to receive all Lowland messages in Outlook Express. Thanks again and kind regards. Roger ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lowlands-L" To: Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 12:21 AM Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2004.03.26 (05) [E] From: Roger Hondshoven Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.26 (01) [E] Hello everybody, I have a problem with the encoding tool "Unicode UTF-8. I don't see how I can switch to it on my PC. Does someone have a solution. Thanks in advance. Roger *** From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Technica Moyen, Roger! Others may turn out to be more helpful than I can be. For now let me mention that much depends on your email program. Somewhere (usually under "View" or "Format" and equivalents) there ought to be a menu item "Encoding" (and equivalents). If Unicode UTF-8 is not specified there, you ought to be able to load it as one of the available encoding modes. (You might find this under "Tools" and "Options" (and equivalents). You ought to consult your help program and look for information under "encoding." Your program might ask you what font to load when you go into Unicode UTF-8 mode. The best font for it at the moment is Arial Unicode. It has the largest number of characters, including extended Roman (yes, including Old English and Old Saxon symbols), International Phonetic Alphabet, extended Cyrillic, extended Greek, extended Hebrew, extended Arabic, Armenian, Georgian, the major Indic scripts, Thai, Lao, Tibetan, Korean, Chinese, Japanese and numerous scientific characters. It used to be available free of charge, but now it is a part of Microsoft software packages. (I was lucky enough to have gotten it before commercialization.) The latest version of (single-spaced) Courier New is one of the so-so substitutes. Bye for now, and thanks for you participation, Roger! Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Technica Roger (above): > But since I sent my cry for help I have already switched to > Outlook Express. There everything can be read. From now on I'll try to > receive all Lowland messages in Outlook Express. > Thanks again and kind regards. You're most welcome, Roger. Another piece of advice: using Outlook or Outlook Express, make sure you have aduate and frequently updated virus protection. Also, if you or anyone else needs to change their subscribed email address, please write to me, and I will take it from there. It is really better to change the subscription than to have mail forwarded automatically from one account to another. If there is anything wrong with the account that is not subscribed I have no way of doing anything about it but still get error messages, and most of the time I have no idea who the owner of the mystery account is. That's a great pain in the neck, as you can probably imagine. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sun Mar 28 17:12:53 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 09:12:53 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.28 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen Subject: Help needed Haai almal, I need to examine the inflections of the Afrikaans adjectives. I don't have a lot of material available to asking your for help. I would like to know whether there are dialect differences (Standard-Afrikaans, Oost-Kaaps, West-Kaaps, Oranje Rivier Afrikaans)? I would also like to know how why the system is like it is. Are there phonetic explanations. I will probably have more and more concrete questions later. Thanks in advance! Geniet die dag, Kenneth ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sun Mar 28 17:17:45 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 09:17:45 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.28 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: beckivan Subject: (Diachronic) Syntax Dear Lowlands-L Users, I have read with interest the comments resulting from Michel Verhagen's original post concerning reflexives. I am currently working on a Phd on the History of English reflexives and am particularly interested in Frisian, Dutch and Afrikaans due to their similarities and differences with earlier stages of English. I'd welcome any further information anyone has particularly concerning Afrikaans (see below). For old english the ordinary personal pronouns are used as the reflexive. The famous examples from Visser being: judas aheng hine (either Judas hanged himself or judas hanged him) self comes in as a reflexive in the early middle english period and competes with the older form. Afrikaans as far as I am aware is similar. I was wondering if there were any word order differences between the use of the object pronoun and the reflexive pronoun in order to distinguish them? I've also heard that Afrikaans is in the process of change with its reflexive - can anyone shed any light on this matter? Thanks in advance Hope this isn't too long, being my first post and all... Beck Sinar ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Syntax Hi, Beck! Welcome to Lowlands-L and to its vocal minority! We may have discussed this topic before, though not in great detail. (You could check the archives in substring mode.) At any rate, I hope you'll receive the help you expect. Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net http://www.lowlands-l.net ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sun Mar 28 21:28:23 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 13:28:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.28 (03) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: ezinsser Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.28 (01) [A,E] Dag almal, Kenneth, ek sal jou so in die loop van die week antwoord op jou vrae. Groete, Elsie Zinsser ---------- From: Liza du Plooy Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.28 (01) [A,E] Kenneth, jy het geskryf: "I would like to know whether there are dialect differences (Standard-Afrikaans, Oost-Kaaps, West-Kaaps, Oranje Rivier Afrikaans)? I would also like to know how why the system is like it is. Are there phonetic explanations. I will probably have more and more concrete questions later. Thanks in advance! Geniet die dag, Kenneth" Het jy spesifieke byvoeglike naamwoorde in gedagte? Indien wel, kan jy 'n paar voorbeelde gee? Groete Liza ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Morpholoy Elsie, Liza, Laaglanders, As jullie op Kenneth sy navraag antwoord, bespreek morfologiese aspekte ("Morphology") afsonderlik van allgemene aspekte ("Language varieties") asseblief. Baie dankie by voorbaat . Groete, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net http://www.lowlands-l.net ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Sun Mar 28 21:30:22 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 13:30:22 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.28 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.03.28 (02) [E] > From: beckivan > Subject: (Diachronic) Syntax > For old english the ordinary personal pronouns are used as the reflexive. > The famous examples from Visser being: > judas aheng hine > (either Judas hanged himself or judas hanged him) In my Lonerlands (West-Limburgish) from Vliermaal: "Judas het hem opgehange" could mean both. In case of ambiguity of context one can also say: - "Judas het zen eige opgehange" (zen eige = his own) for the reflexive form. For the non reflexive form, approaches could be: - "Judas het hem doa opgehange" (him there) but clearly the listener should know where "there" points to. In the worst case of ambiguity I guess one would use the name of the person hanged. I guess it is curious that, while both Dutch and German use a form of "self", we don't use it in our West-Limburgish though. Regards, Roger ---------- From: beckivan Subject: Syntax Dear Lowlanders, More questions I'm afraid: I know that Dutch has stressed and unstressed object pronouns (strong and weak if you prefer) as in `mij' and `me' with the latter also functioning as the reflexive. Is there a similar stressed/unstressed system in other Lowland languages and if so when can they be used (spoken only? written only? etc..)? Any help would be much appreciated, Beck Sinar ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 29 19:18:10 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:18:10 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.29 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Margaret Tarbet Subject: An experiment that will probably interest many lowlanders I received this mailing this morning about an experiment in which Lowlanders might like to participate: >From: W.J. Heeringa (w.j.heeringaATlet.rug.nl) >Subject: perception of Germanic languages > >As part of a course at the University of Groningen >(The Netherlands) we developed a website intended >for investigation of language perception. On the >website 11 recordings of different languages and >dialects can be heard, and the visitor is asked to >rate the distance of the varieties with respect to >his of her mother tongue. > >To complete our project we need many different >people with different native languages to visit our >website and do the experiment. We would like to >ask you to participate in this experiment or to send >this mail to students at your university so that these >students can participate. The experiment is for >scientific use only and will not be used for other purposes. > >The experiment and more information about the >experiment, can be found on our website: > >http://www.let.rug.nl/perception > >We thank you for your participation. I suspect we'll skew the results :-) Margaret ---------- From: Fr?d?ric Baert Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.26 (03) [E] On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 09:48:22 -0800, Lowlands-L David wrote: >Another thing that i noticed in tis discussion about Low-German is that >Linguist trie to devide >the dialects in smooth borders. That is not so easy to do. >As I look to the resemblance of "Westvlams" with Low-Saxon, or even with >modern German, >and against that I see the differences between "Westvlams" and modern >Dutch, then I can >hardly see "Westvlams" as a dutch dialect. Also I would say that "Westvlams" >is a dialect with >at least saxon roots, so it would do not much right to call "Westvlams" a >Low-Franconian dialiect. >Another thing is that West-, Middle- and East-Germany since the Middle Ages >was settled down >with People from Holand and Flanders. And that even til 1945 in Prussia, >K??nigsberg, a dialect >was spoken that was verry simelar to Flemish. > >Kind regards, >David > Hello I agree with this. But I think I heard that one of the most important feature of low franconian dialects is the disappearance of the l between a vowel and a consonnant like in dutch "oud" vs english, frisian, low saxon and german "old" or "alt". In this way, west flemish is a low franconian dialect. My french west flemish is even "more franconian" than dutch since the disappearance is often more complete. The problem I see is that linguist want a language to be low franconian or low saxon or english or frisian. In this way what could be the position of west flemish with its low franconian features i mentionned above but also its saxon features and its frisian features ? I think you cannot put a language into one box and not another. I see west flemish like one of the transitional languages between the low-franconian languages and the low saxon languages and also between the low franconian/low saxon languages and the ingwaeonic languages. In France, one of the definitions of a dialect is that a language is a dialect of another if the two are mutually intelligible. In this way it's worse for west flemish and dutch because a french west flemish speaker can very hardly (if he can!)understand a dutch speaker. In fact my grandmother told me an interesting story : Her mother didn't speak at all english but when she rescued an english soldier during the second world war, they could communicate a little bit, him in english and her in west flemish ! I don't say west flemish and english are mutually intelligible. It's clear it's not the case. But I ask if, in regard to the difficulty for a french flemish to understand dutch, you can really say west flemish is a dutch dialect? The main problem is that the term of dialect comes from the period when linguists wanted the languages to be classified like naturalists did with animals and vegetals. But (especially for germanic languages which form a continuum) this classification is possible for clearly distinct language like standard english vs standard german but becomes problematic when used for transitional languages like west flemish, low saxon dialects I think, but also limburgish or middle franconian dialects etc... I also think the problem often becomes politic. i.e. I think it's better to say in France that french flemish is a dutch dialect. You can even read on certain internet pages that flemish people in north of France speak dutch ! So governments don't have to do something to save french flemish since the same language is spoken in Belgium and in the Netherlands! I'm sure it's what lots of French people think (when they know that in some part of north of France people speak a flemish dialect. Despite of this, I'm very proud to be a french flemish : french and flemish. I'm just so sad about the disappearance of my language.) Best regards Fr?d?ric Baert ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 29 20:53:56 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:53:56 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.29 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Tom Maguire Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.29 (01) [E] Lowlands-L wrote: >>From: W.J. Heeringa (w.j.heeringaATlet.rug.nl) >>Subject: perception of Germanic languages >> >>As part of a course at the University of Groningen >>(The Netherlands) we developed a website intended >>for investigation of language perception. On the >>website 11 recordings of different languages and >>dialects can be heard, and the visitor is asked to >>rate the distance of the varieties with respect to >>his of her mother tongue. >> >>To complete our project we need many different >>people with different native languages to visit our >>website and do the experiment. We would like to >>ask you to participate in this experiment or to send >>this mail to students at your university so that these >>students can participate. The experiment is for >>scientific use only and will not be used for other purposes. >> >>The experiment and more information about the >>experiment, can be found on our website: >> >>http://www.let.rug.nl/perception >> >>We thank you for your participation. > > > I suspect we'll skew the results :-) > > Margaret Impossible to enter... Any leads? Tam -- Carpe Diem. -Visit Nlp in Education http://www.xtec.es/~jmaguire -Join Nlp-Education mailto:nlp-education-subscribe at yahoogroups.com -Join Seal-Spain mailto:seal-spain-subscribe at yahoogroups.com ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Hi, Tam! I got in nae bather. You should try again. Actually, there's an automatic detour. You might as well go to the final site right away: http://www.beachvolleybal.com/projects/em/ Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Mon Mar 29 21:00:05 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:00:05 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.03.29 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology Folks I'd like to reconnect with the thread Heiko started on March 20, 2004. > From: Heiko Evermann > Subject: Copenhagen/Koebenhavn > > Hi everyone, > > For the name of the Danish capital we have two very different forms: > 1) the Danish (original) Form: K?benhavn. > 2) the English form: Copenhagen, or in German: Kopenhagen. > > (For the origin of K?benhavn, I have heard that the first part means > merchant, and the second means harbour.) > > The strange thing about the name is the change from v to g, which is > highly unusual. > > Does anyone know how to explain this? > > Kind regards, > > Heiko Evermann > > ---------- > > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Phonology > > Moyen, Heiko! > > > The strange thing about the name is the change from v to g, which is > > highly unusual. > > It isn't as unusual as you may think. Within the West Germanic group it is > not prevalent, though there are instances such as Lowlands Saxon (Low > German) _blau_ ~ _blaag_ (and Dutch _blauw_) 'blue'. > > When it comes to this phenomenon, you need to throw /v/ and /w/ into one > category. (In such cases they may even be allophones.) > > This alternation between /g/ and /v~w/ is quite noticeable within the North > Germanic group. Note for example Danish _dag_ being pronounced [da:G] ~ > [da:w] etc. (hence the spelling or in Jutish). Note also the > word for 'sea' or 'ocean' in North Germanic: Swedish _hav_, Danish _hav_ > ([haw]), Norwegian _hav_, Icelandic _haf_, Old Norse _haf_, versus the word > for 'pasture' or 'garden': Swedish _hage_, Danish _have_ (['ha:v?]), > Norwegian _hage_, Icelandic _hagi_, Old Norse _hagi_, and now compare these > with West Germanic cognates such as German _Hag_, Dutch/LS _haag_ and > English _haw_! > > This /g/ ~ /v~w/ alternation is very prevalent in other language groups and > families, such as in Turkic and other Altaic languages, where /w/ frequently > alternates with uvular (postvelar) /G/; e.g., _taG_ ~ _taw_ ~ _tau_ > 'mountain'. I think this has something to do with a tendency toward lip > rounding while pronouncing voiced velars and uvulars in some language > varieties. > > However, note the very word for 'harbor' in North Germanic: Swedish _hamn_, > Danish _havn_ ([haw|n]), Dano-Norwegian _havn_, Icelandic _h?fn_, Old Norse > _h?fn_. Not a /g/ in sight! I often wonder if _Kopenhagen_ is derived from > foreign, perhaps Middle Saxon, reanalysis of _havn_ 'harbor' as _hag-en_ > 'the _hag_ (haw?)'. > > Regards, > Reinhard/Ron Alternation between /g/ and /v/ or /w/ is really not uncommon among the Germanic languages. Within this group, and perhaps universally, /g/ is somewhat "illusive" in that it likes to surface in the "guise" of _v_ ~ _w_ and _j_ (= _y_), mostly as a result of "attraction," i.e., labial and palatal assimilation. The latter shift can also be observed in the shift from /gii/ (, , ) to /jii/ (Lowlands Saxon and Western Flemish ) > /jai/ (Dutch > ), etc., not to forget English and Scots , for the 2nd person plural pronoun. Most Lowlands Saxon ("Low German") varieties are fairly resistant to this shift, though their eastern varieties (as well as those of German) have not been. In the latter, /g/ consistently changes to [j], probably due to Slavonic substrates, possibly also reinforced by Flemish immigrants' influences. The word group "fly" is a one of those that represents both shifts: /g/ > /w/~/v/ and /g/ > /j/: Old English: verb: fl?o?an ~ fl?o?an - fl?o? ~ fl?o? ~ fl?oh ~ fl?oh - flu?on noun: fl?o?e ~ fl??e Modern English: verb: fly - flew - flown noun: fly Modern Scots: verb: flee - flaw ~ flew - floun noun: flee Modern Icelandic: verb: flj?ga - fl?g / flaug - flaugum / floginn noun: fluga Modern Danish: verb: flyve - fl?j - fl?jet noun: flue As you can see, Modern English, Scots and Danish never phonetically realize /g/ in this group, only the results of the shifts. The North Saxon dialects of Lowlands Saxon (Low German), on the other hand, are fairly conservative in this regard (and other phonological regards): Modern Lowlands Saxon: verb: vleygen - vl?yg' - vlagen noun: vleyg' German-based orthography: verb: flegen ~ fleigen - fl??g(') ~ fleug - flagen ~ flogen noun: Fleeg(') ~ Fleig(') Phonetic: verb: 'fl????? ~ 'fla???? - fl???? ~ fl???j ~ fl???j - 'fl???? noun: fl???(?) ~ fla??(?) Eastern Lowlands Saxon: Mennonite (Plautdietsch): verb: fleaje(n) - fluag - jefloage noun: Fleaje German: Modern Standard German: verb: fliegen - flog - geflogen noun: Fliege Modern Eastern Yiddish: verb: flien - N/A - gefloygn noun: flig Modern Eastern Yiddish (orthographic): verb: ??????? - N/A - ???????? noun: ?????? Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 30 02:23:55 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:23:55 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.29 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Margaret Tarbet Subject: Language varieties Tam Maguire wrote: >Impossible to enter... Any leads? Tam, that url is the 'front door' where they shift folk to different translations of the instructions. The other day I got in immediately, but it took me several tries this time. I'm not sure what's the carry-on. If you're still having problems, though, have a go at the English site directly. That seems to work just as well: http://www.beachvolleybal.com/projects/em/ Margaret ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 30 18:40:18 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:40:18 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.30 (01) [E/F] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Stella en Henno Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.29 (01) [E] > From: Fr?d?ric Baert > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.26 (03) [E] > > On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 09:48:22 -0800, Lowlands-L > David wrote: > > >Another thing that i noticed in tis discussion about Low-German is that > >Linguist trie to devide > >the dialects in smooth borders. That is not so easy to do. > >As I look to the resemblance of "Westvlams" with Low-Saxon, or even with > >modern German, > >and against that I see the differences between "Westvlams" and modern > >Dutch, then I can > >hardly see "Westvlams" as a dutch dialect. Also I would say > that "Westvlams" > >is a dialect with > >at least saxon roots, so it would do not much right to call "Westvlams" a > >Low-Franconian dialiect. Dit liket my frjemd ta, my hat it Westflaamsk net sa Saksysk oanheard. It is al sa, dat der mienskiplike konserfative skaaimerken binne (beh?ld fan [i] (yn wurden as "iis") en net diftongearre [u] (mar yn it Saksysk [u] (op de meast westlike farianten yn Nederl?n nei) en by jimme [y] (Nl uu), yn "h?s"-wurden. Fierders sprekke jim beiden de einichste -n noch ?t yn meartallen en tiidswurdfoarmen, mar dat dogge de Friezen ek. Jim hawwe gjin oml?d op lange l?den, mienskiplik -t (of -en) meartal foar alle persoanen yn de notiid fan de tiidwurdsb?ging, noch hawwe jim de -l- beholden yn wurden as "?ld" en "hout". Dizze 3 binne (binnen it Nederl?nske gebiet) de grutte skieders fan Saksyske en mear westlike of s?dlike tongslaggen. In oar konserfatyf skaaimerk dat ik betinke kin dat Saksyks (guon dialekten) en Westflaamsk mien hawwe, is in langer beh?ld fan [o:] yn wurden as "boek", dat komt by jim dochs as "book" foar, somtyds? Mar dit is gewoan de Aldgermaanske foarm, dus leau ik earder oan mienskiplike "beh?ldsucht" yn perifeare gebieten.. > >Another thing is that West-, Middle- and East-Germany since the Middle Ages > >was settled down > >with People from Holand and Flanders. And that even til 1945 in Prussia, > >K??nigsberg, a dialect > >was spoken that was verry simelar to Flemish. > > > >Kind regards, > >David > > > > Hello > > I agree with this. But I think I heard that one of the most important > feature of low franconian dialects is the disappearance of the l between a > vowel and a consonnant like in dutch "oud" vs english, frisian, low saxon > and german "old" or "alt". In this way, west flemish is a low franconian > dialect. My french west flemish is even "more franconian" than dutch since > the disappearance is often more complete. ek it Westerlauwerk Frysk hat yn 'e measte dialekten (it Hylpersk (Hindeloopers) is in ?ts?ndering) de -l- ek ferlern: "?ld" wurdt ?tsprutsen as [O:d] (Hylpen [a:ld]), "hout" liket has it selde as it Holl?nsk (Hylpen [ho. at lt]) (dus net rymjend as yn Nl. hout, oud; apart ek: Skierm?ntseach hat "aud" en "heeuwt") . Ek in wurdt as "souder", wylst it Holl?nsk "zolder" hat, "moude" (besibbe oan "mold" yn it Ingelsk) lit sjen dat it Frysk hjir frij "Frankysk" is, feitlik. Mar fansels is dizze feroaring sa natuerlik dat er oeral spontaan opkomme kin, en by ?s is dat dus ek bard, mar wol letter as yn it Frankysk. (de Fryske stavering is hjir wat beh?ldend). Typysk West-Frankysk: ferienf?ldiging (al heel betiid) fan -sk en -ks-: ferlykje Frysk "waskje" (Ing. to wash, Nl wassen) en "waakse" (groeie) mei Nl wassen (yn "het wassende water; volwassen; Frysk folwoeksen), D?tsk "wachsen". Ek "zes" (ynstee fan "seis" < "seks" (noch yn Hylpen) by ?s, D?tsk "sechs", Ing. "six" mar Saksysk faak ek "z?s" of soks...) en "vos" (ynstee faan "foks" yn it Frysk bygelyks) binne hjir foarbylden fan. Dit skaaimerk is al ier Midsieuwsk, en miskjin noch wol ?lder... > The problem I see is that linguist want a language to be low franconian or > low saxon or english or frisian. In this way what could be the position of > west flemish with its low franconian features i mentionned above but also > its saxon features and its frisian features ? Dit ferwiist nei relikten as "brig" of "breg" (Frysk "br?ge" (soms ek "brigge") en "rig" esfh? > I think you cannot put a language into one box and not another. I see west > flemish like one of the transitional languages between the low-franconian > languages and the low saxon languages and also between the low > franconian/low saxon languages and the ingwaeonic languages. > > In France, one of the definitions of a dialect is that a language is a > dialect of another if the two are mutually intelligible. In this way it's > worse for west flemish and dutch because a french west flemish speaker can > very hardly (if he can!)understand a dutch speaker. In fact my grandmother > told me an interesting story : Her mother didn't speak at all english but > when she rescued an english soldier during the second world war, they could > communicate a little bit, him in english and her in west flemish ! I don't > say west flemish and english are mutually intelligible. It's clear it's not > the case. But I ask if, in regard to the difficulty for a french flemish to > understand dutch, you can really say west flemish is a dutch dialect? > > The main problem is that the term of dialect comes from the period when > linguists wanted the languages to be classified like naturalists did with > animals and vegetals. But (especially for germanic languages which form a > continuum) this classification is possible for clearly distinct language > like standard english vs standard german but becomes problematic when used > for transitional languages like west flemish, low saxon dialects I think, > but also limburgish or middle franconian dialects etc... > > I also think the problem often becomes politic. i.e. I think it's better to > say in France that french flemish is a dutch dialect. You can even read on > certain internet pages that flemish people in north of France speak dutch ! > So governments don't have to do something to save french flemish since the > same language is spoken in Belgium and in the Netherlands! I'm sure it's > what lots of French people think (when they know that in some part of north > of France people speak a flemish dialect. Despite of this, I'm very proud > to be a french flemish : french and flemish. I'm just so sad about the > disappearance of my language.) > > Best regards > Fr?d?ric Baert > And so am I, but politically saying it is "Dutch" might not be such a bad idea; one might get some financial support one otherwise wouldn't have had... Henno Brandsma ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Henno: > In oar konserfatyf skaaimerk dat ik betinke kin dat Saksyks (guon dialekten) > en Westflaamsk > mien hawwe, is in langer beh?ld fan [o:] yn wurden as "boek", dat komt > by jim dochs as "book" foar, somtyds? In it hjoeddeiske Saksysk fan D?tskl?n betekent _o(o)_ twa l?den: /oo/ of /ou/. In it gefal fan _Book_ is it /bouk/, dus ek _bouk_ in oare systemen. In ieniche tongslaggen is /ou/ fonetisk [a.U], dus ek de spelling _au_: _Bauk_. In it meartal fan dizze _au_-tongslaggen is /ei/ ek fonetisk [a.I], b.f. /bein/ _Bein_, Grinsl?nsk (Gronings) Saksysk _baain_ (mar in tongslaggen fan it type /ou/ = _o(o)_: /ei/ = _e(e)_, bf. /bein/ = _Been_). Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 30 19:04:57 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:04:57 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.30 (02) [A/E/Danish] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Thea R?nsby Subject: a linguistic problem Hello all of you! My question is: What is the difference in using the preposition "vir" and "voor" in Afrikaans? I hope some of you might answer me. Thank you. Sincerely, Thea R?nsby, Denmark ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Morphology Hov, Thea! Jeg byder Deg i enhvers navn velkommen. Dis lekker om jou op Lowlands-L te ontmoed. Ek het tot nog toe nie geweet nie, dat in Afrikaans die woorde "vir" en "voor" semanties gedeeltelik saamval kan. Ek het geloof, dat _for_ "vir" en _before_ "voor" is (maar albei _voor_ in Nederlands). Jou navraag het my baie nuuskierig gemaak. Hilsen, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Tue Mar 30 20:52:05 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:52:05 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.30 (03) [A/E/Danish] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: ezinsser Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.03.30 (02) [A/E/Danish] Dag almal Nee, Ron, vir is 'n voorsetsel, en voor is 'n adverb (?) wat plek aandui. Voorbeelde: Ek sit altyd voor in die bus om eerste by die huis te kom. Kom staan hier voor my dan maak ek jou knope vas. Ek het vir my suster rose gekoop. Hulle het vir my die storie vertel. Groete Elsie Z ======================================================================= From: Thea R?nsby Subject: a linguistic problem My question is: What is the difference in using the preposition "vir" and "voor" in Afrikaans? I hope some of you might answer me. Thank you. Sincerely, Thea R?nsby, Denmark ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Morphology Hov, Thea! Jeg byder Deg i enhvers navn velkommen. Dis lekker om jou op Lowlands-L te ontmoed. Ek het tot nog toe nie geweet nie, dat in Afrikaans die woorde "vir" en "voor" semanties gedeeltelik saamval kan. Ek het geloof, dat _for_ "vir" en _before_ "voor" is (maar albei _voor_ in Nederlands). Jou navraag het my baie nuuskierig gemaak. Hilsen, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 31 01:14:22 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:14:22 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.30 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.MAR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Fr?d?ric Baert Subject: Re: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.30 (01) [E/F] Henno wrote : >> The problem I see is that linguist want a language to be low franconian or >> low saxon or english or frisian. In this way what could be the position of >> west flemish with its low franconian features i mentionned above but also >> its saxon features and its frisian features ? >Dit ferwiist nei relikten as "brig" of "breg" (Frysk "br??ge" (soms ek >"brigge") >en "rig" esfh? No, I don't think I ever heard "brig" in french flemish but always "brugge". In contrast, we still have "dinne" instead of dutch "dunne" (eng. "thin") and "pit" instead of "put". Modification of vowels is, I think, one of the most important difference between west flemish and dutch since all vowels have a great or little difference of pronunciation in west flemish : a often > ae (ao) like dutch "vader" > w. fl. "vaeder" e between consonnant is pronunced intermediary between e and a like "hem" which is pronunced almost like eng "ham" of "buckingham" (saxon pronunciation i think). o often > u like "op" > "up", "bos" > "busch", "ons" > "(n)uus" u often > i : "dunne" > "dinne", "put" > "pit" (a "put" in french flemish is a frog!), "rukke" (i think) > "rikke" There is the intersting case of dutch "molen", in french flemish "meule" but on the coast, we have two villages in France with names "millam" and "hoymille", attesting an old flemish "mille" like english "mill". We also have short vowels instead of diphtongs in place of the old long vowels of old germanic like "huus" (short vowel) instead of durch "huis". "ys" instead of "ijs". "ou" is not a diphtong but in my language it is pronunced a little bit different from "oe": "goed" and "goud" are no homophones and so are not "by" and "bie". At least, one point in french flemish is intriguing me : "sch" is always pronunced like in german and not like dutch" sch" or english "sch" (frisian "sk"). But I read that, in the past, near duunkerke, "sch" was pronunced like "sk". My ancestors village 's name, "hondschoote", was in 1069 "hondescote". Now, it is pronunced in modern french flemish something like " onschoote" but it is pronunced in french something like "onskote". I don't think pronuniation of "sch" as "sk" is very natural for a french speaker so I don't think it is a french deformation (but it's still a possibility). Another village : boeschepe is pronunced in modern french flemish something like "buschepe" but in french something like "boskepe". I ask myself if these french pronunciations cannot be inherited from an old flemish pronunciation of "sch" like frisian "sk". But in this case how and why "sch" became pronunced as modern french flemish "sch" since it is not the standard dutch pronunciation? Best regards Fr?d?ric Baert ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Salut, Fr?d?ric! > There is the intersting case of dutch "molen", in french flemish "meule" > but on the coast, we have two villages in France with names "millam" > and "hoymille", attesting an old flemish "mille" like english "mill". Incidentally, in the North Saxon dialects the word is umlauted too: _m?le_ ['m?:l?] ~ ['m?:le], nowadays more frequently _m??l_ [m?:.l], in Germanized spelling _M?hle_ and _M?hl_ respectively (to make it look like German _M?hle_). In Dutch-based spelling this would be _meule_ and _meul_ respectively. I think Henno has a point in reminding us to think in terms of progressive versus conservative features rather than only thinking in terms of influences. By the same token, we ought not forget either that most, if not all, of the Continental North Sea coast once was Frisian-dominated and that there was considerable Saxon influx on what are now the coasts of Belgium and Northern France (also Zeeland?). Perhaps it is sometimes impossible to decide what accounts for what. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ====================================================================== From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 31 16:51:53 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:51:53 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.31 (01) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze??uws) ======================================================================= From: Cr??ost??ir ?? Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.30 (04) [E] Ron wrote: "Perhaps it is sometimes impossible to decide what accounts for what." Undoubtedly. I have long despaired of ever tracking down the origin of most of the unique features of Nottingham English, even though links to Dutch and Zeelandic seem most probable. Too much of NEng's sound system has been chipped away at by standard English in the last two hundred years, and all we are left with are relics. I would dearly love the case to be otherwise, however. Criost??ir. ---------- From: marco [evenhuiscommunicatie] Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.30 (04) [E] Henno wrote : > >> The problem I see is that linguist want a language to be low franconian > or > >> low saxon or english or frisian. In this way what could be the position > of > >> west flemish with its low franconian features i mentionned above but also > >> its saxon features and its frisian features ? > >Dit ferwiist nei relikten as "brig" of "breg" (Frysk "br????ge" (soms ek > >"brigge") > >en "rig" esfh? Frederic then answered: > No, I don't think I ever heard "brig" in french flemish but > always "brugge". In contrast, we still have "dinne" instead of > dutch "dunne" (eng. "thin") and "pit" instead of "put". Modification of > vowels is, I think, one of the most important difference between west > flemish and dutch since all vowels have a great or little difference of > pronunciation in west flemish : In Zeelandic, which is in a lot of ways closer to French Flemish than to West-Flemish, forms like 'dinne' and 'pit' also still exist and are used in everyday speech. The same goes for 'rik' or 'rikke' (back, Du. _rug_). 'Brigge' is becoming oldfashioned now, but the memory to the word is being kept alive by topographic names like the village of Brigdamme on the island of Walcheren. The local sportscentre there is called 'De Brigge'. Most of the features Frederic then mentions, are Zeelandic too. That's not a coincidence. When in later medieval times Brabant in stead of Flanders became the most powerful region in the Netherlands, the Brabantic of that time became of huge influence on especially East- but also on West-Flemish. Some language features that had been common thoughout E- and W-Flanders (and Zeeland), got restricted to the areas that were less under the influence of Brabantic. Those areas are what is now called French Flanders (including the 'Westhoek' of West-Flanders) and Zeeland. It's probably no surprise that a lot features that survived in these parts are Frisian. More or less the same happened in the west of Holland. The original language there had a lot of Frisian features as well, but they almost completely diappeared when after the huge influx of people from Brabant at the end of the 17th century, the language of power in Holland also became more and more Brabantic. The dialects of some small villages on the coast, like Katwijk and Scheveningen, somehow managed to keep more of their original features however. Regards, Marco Evenhuis ---------- From: Fr??d??ric Baert Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.30 (04) [E] >From: R. F. Hahn >Subject: Language varieties > >Salut, Fr??d??ric! > >> There is the intersting case of dutch "molen", in french flemish "meule" >> but on the coast, we have two villages in France with names "millam" >> and "hoymille", attesting an old flemish "mille" like english "mill". > >Incidentally, in the North Saxon dialects the word is umlauted too: _m??le_ >['m??:l??] ~ ['m??:le], nowadays more frequently _m????l_ [m??:.l], in Germanized >spelling _M??hle_ and _M??hl_ respectively (to make it look like German >_M??hle_). In Dutch-based spelling this would be _meule_ and _meul_ >respectively. > >I think Henno has a point in reminding us to think in terms of progressive >versus conservative features rather than only thinking in terms of >influences. By the same token, we ought not forget either that most, if not >all, of the Continental North Sea coast once was Frisian-dominated and that >there was considerable Saxon influx on what are now the coasts of Belgium >and Northern France (also Zeeland?). Perhaps it is sometimes impossible to >decide what accounts for what. > >Regards, >Reinhard/Ron > Hallo I have also this point in mind and I think that "frisonisms "and "saxonisms" in west flemish tend to prove that, in ancient times, saxon, frisian and franconian were all together perfectly intelligible. This is why I think classification between low franconian-low saxon and anglo-frisian languages is artificial but I'm no linguist. Best regards Fr??d??ric ---------- From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Language varieties Henno Brandsma en Fr??d??ric Baert spraken over de verschillen en overeenkomsten tussen West-Vlaams, Nederlands, Fries en Nedersaksisch. Om de taalkundige puzzel nog lastiger te maken, zijn hier de Limburgse varianten: >Dit liket my frjemd ta, my hat it Westflaamsk net sa Saksysk >oanheard. It is al sa, dat der mienskiplike konserfative skaaimerken >binne (beh??ld fan [i] (yn wurden as "iis") en net diftongearre [u] >(mar yn it Saksysk [u] (op de meast westlike farianten yn Nederl??n >nei) en by jimme [y] (Nl uu), yn "h??s"-wurden. Limburgs: ijs = ies [i:s], huis = hoes [hu:s] >Fierders sprekke >jim beiden de einichste -n noch ??t yn meartallen en >tiidswurdfoarmen, mar dat dogge de Friezen ek. Jim hawwe gjin >oml??d op lange l??den, mienskiplik -t (of -en) meartal foar alle >persoanen yn de notiid fan de tiidwurdsb??ging, noch hawwe >jim de -l- beholden yn wurden as "??ld" en "hout". Limburgs: oud = aud [A:d / O:d] of alt [ald] in de noordelijke gebieden >In oar konserfatyf skaaimerk dat ik betinke kin dat Saksyks (guon >dialekten) en Westflaamsk mien hawwe, is in langer beh??ld fan [o:] >yn wurden as "boek", dat komt by jim dochs as "book" foar, >somtyds? Mar dit is gewoan de Aldgermaanske foarm, dus >leau ik earder oan mienskiplike "beh??ldsucht" yn perifeare gebieten. Misschien, Limburgs heeft namelijk ook 'book' [bo:k]. Is het niet gewoon zo dat veel van deze kenmerken zijn toe te schrijven aan een gemeenschappelijke Oudgermaanse basis, in plaats van een vermeende (deels) Saksische oorsprong van het West-Vlaams? >ek it Westerlauwerk Frysk hat yn 'e measte dialekten (it Hylpersk >(Hindeloopers) is in ??ts??ndering) de -l- ek ferlern: "??ld" wurdt >??tsprutsen as [O:d] (Hylpen [a:ld]), "hout" liket has it selde as it >Holl??nsk (Hylpen [ho. at lt]) (dus net rymjend as yn Nl. hout, oud; >apart ek: Skierm??ntseach hat "aud" en "heeuwt") . Ek in wurd as >"souder", wylst it Holl??nsk "zolder" hat. Limburgs: zolder = z??lder >Ek "zes" >(ynstee fan "seis" < "seks" (noch yn Hylpen) by ??s, D??tsk >"sechs", Ing. "six" mar Saksysk faak ek "z??s" of soks...) en >"vos" (ynstee faan "foks" yn it Frysk bygelyks) binne hjir >foarbylden fan. Dit skaaimerk is al ier Midsieuwsk, en miskjin >noch wol ??lder... Limburgs: zes = z??s, fox = f??ks of vos In ieder geval heeft men gelijk als men stelt dat taalkundigen graag mooie strakke taalgrenzen willen zien, waar die er feitelijk niet zijn: overgangen van taal (of dialect) naar taal (of dialect) gaan vaak vloeiend. Groeten, Mathieu __________________________ www.streektaal.net ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Dear Lowlanders, First I'll follow my buddy Mathieu, hoping to satisfy the "harvesters" among you with North Saxon (NS) dialect data of Lowlands Saxon (Low German) of Northern Germany. (< > marks equivalents with German-based spelling, [ ] phonetic representation.) > Limburgs: ijs = ies [i:s], huis = hoes [hu:s] ys [??i??s] 'ice' huus [hu??s] 'house', 'building', 'edifice' > Limburgs: oud = aud [A:d / O:d] of alt [ald] in de noordelijke gebieden old ~ ~ ~ [??o????t] 'old' > Limburgs: zolder = z??lder No cognate, as far as I can tell, but: haub????n ['ha??? b????n] ~ hayb????n ['ha????b????n] ~ hoyb????n ['h??????b????n] '(hay) loft' ~ ruge(n) b????n [??ru????e'b????n] ~ [??ru??????'b????n] ("rough loft/attic") '(hay) loft' > Limburgs: zes = z??s, fox = f??ks of vos s??ss [z??s] ~ sess [z??s] 'six' vos () [f??s] 'fox' It seems that several of us feel that some of the "finer" linguistic categorizations may no longer hold a lot of water, that there are levels of differentiation that approach meaninglessness, that we are really talking more about continua than about dialect or language groups. Perhaps there is something to be said for this. These days we might be able to say that a certain group of varieties is primarily based on Saxon, another one on Saxon with Frisian substrates, another one on Saxon with West Slavonic substrates, another one on Franconian with Frisian substrates with Brabantish and or Saxon admixture, etc., etc. Much of the once clearer definitions based on specific features and isoglosses seem to we well on their way of being eroded, mostly by way of mutual influences, primarily due to considerable influences from the dominant languages that "chip away" at them, to borrow Cr??ost??ir's words -- bearing in mind also that these dominant languages (Standard Dutch, Standard German and Standard English) are by no means "pure" to start with, are to various degrees artificially synthesized constructs. All this tends to blur formerly fairly clear divisions. Henno brought up the issue of coincidence. A fine example is that Lowlands Saxon and Western Flemish/Zeelandic -- a fair geographic distance from each other -- share certain features, first and foremost monophthongs where other varieties have diphthongs (e.g., [i??] versus [????], [a??], etc.). Since we know that Saxons emigrated to the coastal regions that are now parts of Belgium and Northern France, we might be tempted to assume this feature to be a case of Saxon influence. However, as Henno suggested, this could just as well be a case of common, coincidental conservatism rather than one of influence, since we know for certain that the monophthongs are the older forms. There is also the issue of diphthongization in English and Scots, which should not lead us to the conclusion that they do not have a Saxon base; rather, we should assume that in their cases diphthongization took place independently, possibly coincidentally, both from Dutch and German. But then there are cases such as the diphthong /ei/ in Saxon where I have also heard it in Western Flemish; e.g., in the word for 'horse': WF [p??????rt] and LS [p(??)????????t] ~ [p(??)a??????t] (> Lower Elbe [p??i????t]); cf. Duch _paard_ (German _Pferd_). Saxon influence or coincidence? At any rate, things no longer seem very clear-cut to me, not as clear-cut as they are described to be in older books, where for instance the spread of the Saxon varieties is supposed coincide to more or less with the spread of archaological and architectural Saxon features, such as that of Saxon "hall"-type farmhouses and crossed wooden horse heads at gabletops. Anyway, how does everyone else feel about this? Are there still any fairly consistently occurring features that distinguish Saxon and Franconian varieties of the Lowlands? Regards, Reinhard/Ron ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Wed Mar 31 22:14:13 2004 From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:14:13 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2004.03.31 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.MAR.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.] ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativia Dear Lowlanders, Happy Easter Holidays to all of you who begin to celebrate them this week! Another week and Passover will be upon us again. We have been joined by quite a few New Lowlanders since my last administrative message (March 10, 2004), the last one just a few minutes ago (from my general neck of the woods, in the Seattle area). Welcome to everyone of them! You will find a list of their places of residence at the end of this message. NEWS FLASH: In the middle of April 2004, Lowlands-L will begin its 10th year! Should we plan a special project for our 10th anniversary? If so, are there any volunteer participants? Please, everyone, "new" and "old," make sure you read and understand the rules and guidelines (http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules). If you wish to be temporarily absent, please let me know the dates, and I will be happy to suspend mailings to you. A few of our subscribers have occasional trouble getting their posting submissions to arrive via the listserver. Apparently this is caused by a combination of the ?reply-to? message setup of the listserver and individual subscribers? email program setups. So far we have not been able to identify the exact cause and thus find out why problems occur apparently randomly. However, our setup has been tweaked to lessen the frequency rate of such problems. If you do not see your submissions displayed or have not heard from me after about two days, please contact me. Alternatively, please resend the submissions to (instead of the usual ). If you turn out to be among the minority with this recurring problem, please use lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net from then on. Please do not send the same submissions simultaneously to both addresses, since sorting out duplicates would be too labor-intensive for me. Once in a while people find themselves unsubscribed without notice. Some of them immediately suspect the worst: that I have "booted them out" for some infraction or other. And I know this for sure only about those that contact me. Please do not jump to this conclusion unless you have received prior reprimands and warnings (which has occurred very rarely, not at all for well over one year). If you find yourself disconnected from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the automated server has unsubscribed your address because of repeated "bouncing," i.e., because your mail servers keep informing the listserver that you cannot be reached. Most of the time this is due to temporary disconnection. Sometimes the reason is that a subscriber?s junk mail filter (or "spam" filter) has not been "told" to exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why our mailings do not arrive in your inboxes. So, if Lowlands-L mail stops coming, please first check your "spam" filters and adjust them if necessary, and only contact me about the problem if all of the above fails. Should you indeed be disconnected, please write to me or resubmit an application (http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=subscription). I?ll be more than happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold. Thanks for participating in and supporting Lowlands-L! Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net http://www.lowlands-l.net ***** Places of Residence of New Lowlanders since March 10, 2004: Belarus: Minsk Region: Minsk [1] Belgium: Flemish Brabant (Vlaams-Brabant): Molenstede [1] Brazil: S?o Paulo: Len??is Paulista [1] Denmark: Sealand (Sj?lland): Holb?k [1] Germany: North Rhine-Westphalia (Nordrhein-Westfalen): Soest [1] Rhineland-Palatine (Rheinland-Pfalz): Landau [1] Indonesia: Jakarta: Jakarta [1] Israel: HaDaron (South Region): Yeruham [1] Netherlands: Southern Holland (Zuid-Holland): Papendrecht [1] Peru: San Mart?n: Tarapoto [1] Philippines: Mindoro Occidental: San Jos? [1] Poland: Mazowieckie: Warsaw (Warszawa) [1] Spain: Guip?zkoa: Irun [1] Thailand: Bangkok (Krung Thep) District: Bangkok (Krung Thep) [1] United Kingdom: England: Merseyside: Liverpool [1] Yorkshire: York [2] Scotland: Dumfries & Galloway: Dumfries [1] United States of America: California: Costa Mesa [1] San Francisco [1] Kansas: Leoti [1] Maryland: Upper Marlboro [1] Michigan: Grand Rapids [1] Jenison [1] Ohio: Saint Henry [1] Texas: Jasper [1] Washington: Redmond [1] ================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html. =======================================================================