LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.01 (05) [E]

Tue Mar 2 05:05:02 UTC 2004

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Holger Weigelt <platt at holger-weigelt.de>
Subject: "Etymology"

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> Here's another Middle Saxon ("Middle Low German") loan in English
> (apparently not in Scots), though the folks at the Oxford Dictionary
aren't
> quite sure about it and if it is from the "Middle" period:
>
> QUILL:
> (1) large feather; (2) hollow stem of a feather > (a) (feather) pen (for
> writing with ink), (b) (feather) plectrum, (c) (feather) toothpick; (3)
> porcupine spine; (4) curled-up piece of cinnamon or cinchona bark.
>
> < (Middle) Saxon _quiele_
>
> If this word survived in a Modern Lowlands Saxon ("Low German") dialect, I
> would expect it to be *_kwyle_ (*<Kwiele> ~ *<Quiele> *['kwi:le]) or
*_kwyl_
> (*<Kwiel> ~ *<Quiel> *['kwi:l]).  However, I am not aware of any such
word.
> Is anyone else?  I cannot find any such word in the language varieties of
> our precious Saxonized neighbors to the north either, nor in Dutch and
> Afrikaans, two of the Franconian cousins of Lowlands Saxon.  In Dutch I
> would expect *_kwijl_, but such a word does not seem to exist in this
sense,
> and "quill" is rendered as _pen_, _schacht_ or _stekel_.  In Afrikaans I
> would expect *_kwyl_, but again, this does not seem to be used in the
sense
> of "quill," and _skag_ (pl. _skagte_), _pen_ and _stekel_ are used,
> depending upon context.  W. Frisian has _pin_ ~ _pinne_ and _stikel_.

Hello Ron !
In Eastern Friesland Low Saxon there is a noun "kwîl" and a corresponding
verb "kwīlen" but these have nothing to do with feathers. The verb means "to
slaver" and the noun denotes the spittle running out of somebody's mouth.

> In Modern Lowlands Saxon, these correspond to _schacht_ ([Sax(t)]) ~
> _schecht_ ([SEx(t)]) 'thin stick', 'switch', 'crop', _pen_ (<Penn> [pE.n])
> 'writing instrument', 'pen', 'quill', and _stekel_ (<Stekel> ~ <Stäkel>
> ['ste:kl] ~ [stE:kl]) 'spine', 'prick', 'quill'.  Obviously, _pen_ is
> related to English "pen" and to Scots _pen_, derived from Old French
> _penne_, which goes back to Latin _penna_ 'feather'.  Scandinavian, too,
has
> _pen_ for 'pen', Icelandic _penni_.

The EFLS term for thin stick is "stik" and a pen is named "päen"

Regards
Holger

----------

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at holger-weigelt.de>
Subject: "Etymology"

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> Here's another Middle Saxon ("Middle Low German") loan in English
> (apparently not in Scots), though the folks at the Oxford Dictionary
aren't
> quite sure about it and if it is from the "Middle" period:
>
> QUILL:
> (1) large feather; (2) hollow stem of a feather > (a) (feather) pen (for
> writing with ink), (b) (feather) plectrum, (c) (feather) toothpick; (3)
> porcupine spine; (4) curled-up piece of cinnamon or cinchona bark.
>
> < (Middle) Saxon _quiele_
>
> If this word survived in a Modern Lowlands Saxon ("Low German") dialect, I
> would expect it to be *_kwyle_ (*<Kwiele> ~ *<Quiele> *['kwi:le]) or
*_kwyl_
> (*<Kwiel> ~ *<Quiel> *['kwi:l]).  However, I am not aware of any such
word.
> Is anyone else?  I cannot find any such word in the language varieties of
> our precious Saxonized neighbors to the north either, nor in Dutch and
> Afrikaans, two of the Franconian cousins of Lowlands Saxon

Hello Ron !
I just wrote about the EFLS words "kwîl" and "kwīlen" which have nothing to
do with feathers but I forgot to write the following:
Why don't You try it with German "Kiel" ?  A "Federkiel" exactly means the
lower part of a feather where it is attached to the bird's skin but the word
also means the writing tool as a whole.
You find the same word in LS. The word has "keel" as an other meaning, too.
Greetings
Holger

----------

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at holger-weigelt.de>
Subject: "Etymology"

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Thanks, Niels and Jim, for the input above.
>
> Jim, the Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch) word _tintfada_ reminds
me
> of a couple of things.
>
> First of all, let me state that I am pretty sure that _tintfada_ is a
> "semi-loan."  The first component, _tint_, must be a loan from ("High")
> German _Tinte_ 'ink'.  If it were an indigenous word I would expect
_Dint_.
> In fact, that is the word in the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) of Germany:
> _Dinte_ or _Dint_.  These are obviously related to English "tint,"

Not everywhere in the LS area ! - EFLS only uses "enkert", "enkt" or "inkt"
which is obviously related to English "ink".
A word "tint" or "dint" isn't known anywhere in Eastern Friesland. The only
possibility for this was if it was directly taken from German "Tinte" when
it would be "tient" which I never heard.

Holger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Moyen, Holger!

Thanks for the input (above).

> A word "tint" or "dint" isn't known anywhere in Eastern Friesland. The
only
> possibility for this was if it was directly taken from German "Tinte" when
> it would be "tient" which I never heard.

I, too, am suspecting it to be a German loan.

> Why don't You try it with German "Kiel" ?

Indeed!  Good one, Holger!  German _(Feder-)Kiel_ and LS _(vedder-)keyl_
'thick bottom part of a feather'.  I think the reason why I didn't make the
connection is that I was expecting something with /kw.../ (<Qu...>).  By the
way, the origin of German _(Feder-)Kiel_ and LS _(vedder-)keyl_ appears to
be unknown.

Lowlanders, I'm wondering if this goes back to a Romance variety.  The only
thing I can think of in French is _quille_ in the sense of 'pin (of
ninepins/skittle)' (German _Kegel_, LS _kegel_) ... Hmmm ... _kegel_ and
_quille_ may be related.  _Kegel_ goes back to Germanic *_kagila_,
originally probably meaning 'pin', 'stick', 'pole' 'wooden figure',
diminutive of dialectal _kag_ 'stem'. _Kegel_ is related to Dutch _kegel_
'icicle'.

Incidentally, the other French word _quille_, like Spanish _quilla_ (>
Basque _gila_?), Portuguese _quilha_, Italian _chiglia_ and Romanian _chilă_
appear to be Germanic loans, related to their English counterpart "keel" <
Middle English _kele_ Old Norse _kjölr_ (cognate of Old English _cele_ 'bill
of (ancient-type) ship').  (English > Manx _kewyl_, _kiouyl_?)  Note also
(Middle Saxon _kyl_ ~ _kil_ ~ _kel_ >) Lowlands Saxon _kyl_ ~ _keyl_ (<Kiel>
~ <Keel> > German _Kiel_, Estonian _kiil_, Latvian _ķīlis_, Lithuanian
_kilis_, Polish _kil_?), Afrikaans _kiel_, Dutch _kiel_ (> Russian киль
_kil'_?), W. Frisian _kyl_, Danish _køl_, Norwegian _kjøl_ (> Saami
_gielas_?), Swedish _köl _ (> Finnish _köli_), Icelandic _kjölur_, German
_Kiel_ and Yiddish קיל _kil_.  Note also Slavonic varieties: Polish _kil_,
Czech _kýl_, Slovak _kýl_, Serbo-Croatian _kilj_, Bulgarian кил _kil_,
Ukrainian кіль _kil'_ and Russian киль _kil'_.

Sorting through *this* loaning "mess" looks like a challenge, doesn't it?

Kumpelmenten!
Reinhard/Ron

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