LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.05 (02) [A/E/German]

Fri Mar 5 16:41:58 UTC 2004

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (08) [E]

As I might have mentioned before, "Snakkn en Bitn" is a Westflemish
expression,
which describes a person who talks in a very agressive way and who allways
looks
angry.
So "snakkn" in westflemish, only remains in a very pejorative connotation.
"Afsnakkn" f.e. meaning answering in a very impolite way,

denis dujardin
kortrijk
westflanders

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From: ezinsser at tiscali.co.za <ezinsser at tiscali.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (10) [E]

Hi all,

I'm intrigued that the Afrikaans form _bakvissie_ for an immature giggly
young girl seems
so similar to the Low Saxon _backwaschen_ (bagvaske).

Any connection?

Regards, Elsie Zinsser

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Here's to another day of etymological frivolities.  :)

Denis (above):

> "Afsnakkn" f.e. meaning answering in a very impolite way,

In Lowlands German (where _snakken_ now just means 'to talk' without an
inherent negative tone), _af-snakken_ (<afsnacken>) occurs with the
reflexive pronoun _sik_ and in this combination means something like 'to
confer with each other', 'to plan together', 'to come to an agreement'.

And there is the verb _mit-snakken_ (<mitsnacken>).  (_Mit_ 'with').  It has
two meanings.  It can denote 'to participate in a dialogue', 'to attend a
meeting and participate in the proceedings or discussions'.  The other
meaning is 'to chat up', 'to coax (by means of words)', 'to talk someone
into following', usually with sexual intentions, especially in the context
of sexual preditors, (potential) child abusers.  We use the verb
_mits(ch)nacken_ and the noun _Mits(ch)nacker_ in Missingsch and in other
North German dialects as well.  When we were children we would be constantly
told to beware of _Mits(ch)nacker(s)_.  We weren't told what they would do
to us, just sensed that we would disappear if we went with them.  So to us a
_Mits(ch)nacker_ was a sort of bogeyman specializing in daytime abductions
(as opposed to the _Bu(h)mann_ or _Butzemann_, the nocturnal counterpart).
Later I was told that there was the occasional _Mits(ch)nackerin_, a female
version, that a certain neighbor was one of them, and that I should not run
any errands for her if she asked.  This may have been simply silly _snak_ to
ostracize her (which wasn't uncommon regarding "older" unmarried women), but
she did use to "hang out the window" in her underwear, and the older boys
would exchange knowing grins with each other when they saw her or whispered
about her ...  Her "official" neighborhood name was "Tippeltante" ("Auntie
Patter", mostly because she always wore stiletto-heel shoes, and partly
inspired by LS _tippeln_ 'to roam' and _tippelbrouder_ 'bum', 'hobo',
'tramp').

I am sure other North Germans on the list know these words (_mits(ch)nacken_
and _Mits(ch)nacker_) from their childhoods.

Elsie (above):

> I'm intrigued that the Afrikaans form _bakvissie_ for an immature giggly
> young girl seems so similar to the Low Saxon _backwaschen_ (bagvaske).

I don't think there is a connection.  However, I'm pretty sure that
Afrikaans _bakvissie_ (which must sound like "(little) baked/baking fish")
is related to German _Backfisch_ (sounding like "baked/baking fish"),
denoting 'female teenager'.  I used to wonder about the derivation of this
word.  Now it seems that it is a Lowlands Saxon (Low German) loan.  One of
the sources I consulted
(http://www.libri.de/shop/content/leseproben/leseproben/leseprobe_5872707.ht
ml) had this to say:

"Ein Backfisch ist ein Fisch, der, weil zu klein und mager, ins Wasser
zurückgeworfen wird (back = zurück). Schon vor der modernen Englischwelle
wurden junge Mädchen, die noch nicht im heiratsfähigen Alter waren,
häufig »Backfische« genannt. Heute ist diese Bezeichnung nur noch
gelegentlich gebräuchlich. Unter »Backfisch« verstehen viele das, was der
Backfisch auch schon immer war: ein panierter Fisch, der in der Pfanne
gebraten (gebacken) wird."

In other words, a _Backfisch_ (in this particular context, not as a dish) is
an undersized (and under-aged) fish that would be thrown back into the
water.

_Bak_ (<back>) in the sense of 'back' (and also 'against the wind') is
apparently specific to the dialects of Hamburg.  Hamburg dialects are known
for their large number of (older) English loanwords that entered the
language mostly by way of seafarer and merchant jargons.  So, my guess is
that German got it from Hamburg LS (most likely from the dialect of the
fishing community Finkwarder/Finkenwerder), and the German word entered
Afrikaans in the form of a calque (i.e., loan translation) with the
"obligatory" Afrikaans diminutive thrown in for good measure.
Alternatively, LS, German and Afrikaans independently got the respective
words from English, because some sources mention English "backfish" as the
source.  I am not aware of such a word, though it is possible that it is or
was used in certain English dialects.  But it is also possible that German
etymologists did what they often do: skip a step or two when an English word
or component came from or via LS.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (12) [E]

Ron wrote:

> P.S.: By the way, when I was a child (which seems like eons ago) grown-ups
> would use German _frei_ or LS _vrey_ 'free' to mean 'risqué',
'adults-only',
> etc.  For example, a certain movie or TV show was considered "too free"
for
> us kids to watch (which meant that we had to go to bed); i.e., it was not
> PG13 (which at that time was just about 75% of movie and TV offerings).  I
> haven't come across this usage lately.  Was this one of my uptight clan's
> idiosyncrasies, or are some of you familiar with it too?

The word that is commonly used these days (and as long as I can remember) is
"freizügig". Maybe your folks used "frei" as an abbreviation because they
considered "freizügig" itself a bad word... this is roughly the same use of
"frei" as in the phrase "ich bin so frei...", meaning, "I shall take the
liberty of...".

Speaking of uptight clans... when i was little, I was taught by my equally
prudish family that the products that emerge in the bathroom are called "en
gros" and "en detail". I fell over laughing when I was around seven years
old and saw a merchant advertise selling "en gros and en detail"...

[Gabriele Kahn]

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