LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.03.18 (06) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen <kenneth at gnu.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.18 (02) [E]

Regarding "Moust (du) ein siddel an der topmast hebben"

Tja, It is quite normal to make inlaut t's to d's in Grünnigs, so
Reinhard might be right:

beedje ~ beetje
tanne ~ tande ~ tante

Groutnis,
Kenneth

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From: rick denkers <d.denkers at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.18 (02) [E]

Moin,

>To me it sounds like "Do you *have* to have a seat at the topmast?"  Might
>it mean something like "Do you *have* to be in control?"

>_Siddel_ reminds me of _sittels_ ~ _siddels_ 'place to seat' (also
>'peripheral or occasional room in an old-time farm house', so perhaps
>originally "sitting room") in other Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects.
>Probably, this word is derived from /sit-/ _sitten_ 'to sit'.  I wonder if
>it is related to German _Sessel_ 'armchair', 'easy chair'.

It is used as in dutch : "Moet je een draai om je oren?"
The whole expression is intriguing. The word topmast gives me the idea
that the expression is nautical in its origin. But what on earth is a siddel
then?

And, if it is a nautical expression, then it is by itself  a rarity since
veenkoloniaal grunnegs does not have much nautical terms or expressions
AFAIK.

Haije,

Rick Denkers

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Moyen!

Rick wrote about Groningen Lowlands Saxon:

> "Most du ein siddel an der topmast hebb'n ?"

And I suggested that _siddel_ may be related to _sittels_ in Lowlands Saxon
of Germany, meaning 'place to sit' (not "place to seat" as I had mistakenly
written).

Rick then explained:

> It is used as in dutch : "Moet je een draai om je oren?"

So, this would be "Do you need of a box on the ear?" (old-fashioned
British), or "Do you need a clip around the ear?" or even "Do you want to
get smacked around?"

Rick wonders:

> The whole expression is intriguing. The word topmast gives me the idea
> that the expression is nautical in its origin.  But what on earth is a
siddel
> then?
>
> And, if it is a nautical expression, then it is by itself  a rarity since
> veenkoloniaal grunnegs does not have much nautical terms or expressions
AFAIK.

Well, Rick, idiomatic expressions, like vocabulary, tend to be passed from
variety to variety.  Oftentimes they go very far afield, and a recipient
variety may preserve an expression while the original donor variety loses
it.   That in itself is not terribly mysterious to me.  An expression may
have made a lot of sense in its place of origin (here assumedly a nautical
sociolect), but, having been frozen as just an idiomatic expression, most
people don't think about its origin (unless they are subscribed to
Lowlands-L).

Here are my theories:

(1) Being seated or placed at the topmast used to be some sort of corporal
punishment on sailing vessels.  (Does anyone know about such?)

(2) Being perched up on the topmast (which would be very high up) you get
whipped by the wind, or "get clips around the ears" from the wind.  (This
happens to you just standing on a dike in Northern Friesland on a normal day
...)  Therefore, when working with sails, the topmast position may have been
the least favored, and being smacked around the face came to be rendered as
"having a topmast position."

It could even be a combination of both of the above.

OK, OK, so what if I have a vivid imagination?  But doesn't this sound at
least halfway plausible?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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