LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.22 (05) [E/German]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.22 (02) [E]

> From: Mathieu. van Woerkom <Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.kun.nl>
> Subject: Language varieties
> But, to come back to one of your earlier question: the Bernrather line is
the dividing line between p/f (lopen/laufen), p/pf (appel/apfel) and k/ch
(maken/machen). In addition, there is also the Ürdinger line, which marks
the difference between ik/ich. Dialects north of both those lines are
considered

Agree for ik/ich (Ürdingen) and maken/machen (Benrath).

Do not agree for Appel/Apfel since this isogloss is frequently used for
separating Lothringisch from Alsatian.
In the Luxembourgish dictionary:
- (French) pomme: --> Apel, plural Äppel

I am not sure for lopen/laufen.
Luxembourgish has:
- courir: lafen
but
- sur: op

> Low German, dialects South of these two lines are considered High German.
> Limburgish is situated right in between those two dialectical lines, by
the way.

Let me refer to some maps on my own website(s). You will find similar maps
on other places on the web.

I actually started publishing on the web in the mid nineties, when i got
some space on the CompuServe server. I changed a couple of times from
provider and I ended with some pages on one one server and others, still to
move, on another server.

The main pages start with:
http://home-13.tiscali-business.nl/%7Etpm09245/lang/langbel.htm
Pages still to move start at:
http://www.euro-support.be/langbel/langbel.htm
Sorry for the inconvenience, but time fails for...

It is my opinion much around these isoglosses has to do with politics.

But let's start with the linguistic side:

The transition of Low-German to High-German goes in little steps in the
West.
Some of these steps are used for delimiting dialect areas.
An overview of the North-South transition can be found on URL:
http://www.euro-support.be/langbel/mapger2.htm

When I look in an older Duden Encyclopedia, the ik/ich isogloss (passing
through Ürdingen, close to Krefeld in Germany) is used for separating
Low-German from Middle-German. This isogloss is not acceptable for Dutch
political linguists though, considering Limburgish being a dialect OF Dutch,
which is hardly defendable when it would be classified as Middle German
(since it falls South of the Ürdiner line)

So they went looking for other isoglosses, and they found that the isogloss
maken/machen (passing through Bernrath, close to Düsseldorf, in Germany),
which bends to the South, virtually along the Dutch-German border, would be
more suitable for separating dialects OF Dutch from dialects OF German.

cf. map at URL:
http://home-13.tiscali-business.nl/%7Etpm09245/lang/lg/li_map/lgo.htm
1 = Bernrather Linie (at the East of the map)
2 = Ürdinger Linie (at the West and North of the map)
-- Quote Goossens (in German) on the same URL:
Es ist in Marburg eine Tradition geworden zu betonen, daß die Ürdinger Linie
die wichtigste Scheide zwischen Hochdeutsch und Niederdeutsch im weiteren
Sinne ist, wichtiger als die Bernrather Linie. Dagegen hat sich in Löwen
durchgesetzt zu betonen, daß due Ürdinger Linie eine relativ unwichtige
Dialectgrenze ist, die sogar wenig geeignet ist, als Kriterium für die
Begrenzung von West- und Ostniederfränkisch zu dienen.
-- end quote

Goossens (is a Limburgian, but was professor on both Universities of Leuven
(in Belgium) and of Münster (in Germany) follows the Dutch-Belgian tradition
of classifying Limburgish as East-Low-Franconian.
Germans rather use: South-Low-Franconian (Südniederfränkisch) for the same
group, as e.g. on URL:
http://home-13.tiscali-business.nl/%7Etpm09245/lang/lg/li_map/lvr.htm
This is just a matter of name-giving, not important, just confusing.

While the Dutch linguists use the Bernrather line for defending there
"territory", the Limburgish linguists had also a problem with the Ürdinger
line, since it includes Brabantish Haspengouw (the Tienen area) at its
South-West. So they arranged for a cut-off in the South-West, using the
isoglosses at the river Gete (separating the old Duchy of Branant from the
old County of Loon).
For the defintion of the Gete isoglosses see URL:
http://www.euro-support.be/langbel/gete.htm
I see the maps are momentarely not properly picked-up on the other page:
http://www.euro-support.be/langbel/mapget.htm
(Sorry, I will try to arrange that later tonight)

So the Ürdinger Linie was rubbed out in the West by the Dutch linguists for
including Limburgh in their realm, and by the West-Limburgish linguists for
having South-East Brabant kicked out of their territory, a third problem
remained:
The North of the Dutch province of Limburg was cut-out. The Germans West- of
the river Rhine also have a very strong feeling of a single Niederrhein
area (the old territories of Kleve/Kleef, Jülich/Gullik/Juliers and
Heinsberg). So it became convenient to define someting uniting North and
South of the Ürdinger Line (uniting Kleverländish with
South/East-Low-Franconian) into the Rhein-Maasländish language area, cf.
URL:
http://home-13.tiscali-business.nl/%7Etpm09245/lang/lg/li_map/lnr.htm
The new limit in the West would become the isogloss houden/halten
I don't know if that is a good choice
In my West-Limburgish (Vliermaal in the South of Belgian Limburg, at the
East, the halten-side, of that line)
  Dutch / Limburgish from Vliermaal
  houden / hage
  ik houd / Ich haach (present tense)
  jij houdt / Dzjië hat
  hij houdt / Hië hilt <--
  ik hield / Ich heuil (past tense)

Hope this clarifies.
Regards,
Roger

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Addendum Re: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.22 (02) [E]

cf. my previous message:

> For the defintion of the Gete isoglosses see URL:
> http://www.euro-support.be/langbel/gete.htm
> I see the maps are momentarely not properly picked-up on the other page:
> http://www.euro-support.be/langbel/mapget.htm
> (Sorry, I will try to arrange that later tonight)

This should be OK now.

> The North of the Dutch province of Limburg was cut-out. The Germans West-
of
> the river Rhine also have a very strong feeling of a single Niederrhein
> area (the old territories of Kleve/Kleef, Jülich/Gullik/Juliers and
> Heinsberg).

Please read:
(the old territories of Kleve/Kleef, Geldern and Heinsberg).

Regards,
Roger

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks a lot, Roger.

Here just a couple of explanatory footnotes:

> Kleve/Kleef

English "Cleves"

> Kleverländish

English "Cleves (region) ..."

> Niederrhein

English "Lower Rhine"

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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