LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.26 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 26.MAR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: ezinsser at tiscali.co.za <ezinsser at tiscali.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (07) [E]

Hello all,

With reference to Roger Hondshoven's comments on Mark Dreyer's reference to
being 'Diets':

The Afrikaans language has its origins in the 'Nederdietse' grouping and you
are quite
right that this word has medieval roots, as probably our surnames. You might
know too that
the root form is also prevalent in the names of languages, such as
Plautdietsch,
Schwiizerdütsch/Schwyzertütsch, as in names of churches such as Nederduits
So & So.

It's unclear to me what is so 'loaded' and why you should be so easily
'struck'. Cultural
history, as diversity, is a good thing and should be embraced with courage
:-)

Sterkte,
Elsie Zinßer,

> I was struck in the text below by the sentence: "we call ourselves
> Diets". I can't imagine anyone in Flemish Belgium and in the Netherlands
today who would
call his language "Diets" . This an historical term denot> ing > the tongue
spoken in the
Middle Ages by the Flemish and the Dutch. To peo> ple > of my generation
Diets is, to say
the least, a suspect word. It is a > (politically) "loaded" term, since it
was - in the
thirties and during th> e
> second world war -  a preferential word with ultra-rightist people
strivi> ng > for a Flemish secession from Belgium or for a union of Flanders
and the >
Netherlands in a kind of "new order". Diets is a word that has unfortunat>
ely > been
abused and as such has fallen out of favour. I am under the impressi> on >
that today even
right-wing people are reticent to use it. It goes without
> saying that I do not want to imply anything improper in connection with t>
he > author
of the text below.
>
>       Roger H.

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From: Éric Plourde <eric.plourde.1 at UMontreal.CA>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (07) [E]

Greetings all,

This thread has become quite interesting to me as I see that language and
identity are still intertwined in humans' psyche and even in people who vie
for
diversity of language in a political entity that is supposed to become a
more
plurilingual society i.e. the European Union.

The bare facts is that there existed before the independence of Belgium, the
Netherlands and Germany a dialectal continuum in Northern Europe (on the
Southern Coast of the North Sea) where mutual comprehension was far greater
with the contiguous dialects. Time has changed the situation where the
dialects
comprised in Northern germany were almost wiped out, whereas some dialects
became national languages (Netherlands and Belgium).

What strikes me in this thread is the quick jump to equate language and
ethnic
background (I have seen the term "race" used once) as if the "genetic" links
between the various Germanic language family and the "genetic" links between
the people living in the states with Germanic tongues as official languages
are
one of the same.

We have to always bear in mind that there has been immense changes in the
population of Europe since that peninsula (for me Europe is not a continent,
just a part of Eurasia) is easily travelled from West to East and East to
West.
Also, where the Germanic language speakers have left their mark,
linguistically, ethnically and economically, on all of the countries
bordering
the North Sea/Baltic sea area, diversity still prevails.

As for people speaking the languages and dialects of the "Lowlands"
continuum,
let's hope that distance does not hinder their mutual comprehension and that
their different genetic background (Afrikaner, Indonesian ascendency,
Turkish,
etc.) can be used to fuel more interrogations and less dissent.

Thanks and Happy Spring.

Eric

> From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (05) [D/E]
>
>       Hello,
>
>       I was struck in the text below by the sentence: "we call ourselves
> Diets". I can't imagine anyone in Flemish Belgium and in the Netherlands
> today who would call his language "Diets" . This an historical term
denoting
> the tongue spoken in the Middle Ages by the Flemish and the Dutch. To
people
> of my generation  Diets is, to say the least, a suspect word. It is a
> (politically) "loaded" term, since it was - in the thirties and during the
> second world war -  a preferential word with ultra-rightist people
striving
> for a Flemish secession from Belgium or for a union of Flanders and the
> Netherlands in a kind of "new order". Diets is a word that has
unfortunately
> been abused and as such has fallen out of favour. I am under the
impression
> that today even right-wing people are reticent to use it. It goes without
> saying that I do not want to imply anything improper in connection with
the
> author of the text below.
>
>       Roger H.

----------

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <godsquad at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.03.25 (06) [D/E]

It is hard to find modern literature in Afrikaans in Belgian bookshops.

Hello, Roger and list, how close is Afrikaans to Dutch, and how close are
they to Flemish?
Ben

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