LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.26 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 26.MAR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (07) [E]

> From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (05) [D/E]
>       I was struck in the text below by the sentence: "we call ourselves
> Diets". I can't imagine anyone in Flemish Belgium and in the Netherlands
> today who would call his language "Diets" .

I think the "Dietsche Warande en Belfort" is still one of the leading
magazines for literature in Dutch.
cf. Website:
http://www.dwb.be/dwb/home.html

Regards,

Roger

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From: David Pattyn <david.pattyn at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (07) [E]

Hello,

in reaction Rogers Text about "Diets".
>>From time to time I do call myself a "Dietscher" or the language that I
speak "Dietsch".
I see no problem in that since my mothertongue is "Westvlams" which is a
flemisch tongue
that is stil spoken verry alike as was spoken in the Middle Ages. What the
political load
of that word is, is not relevant.

Another thing that i noticed in tis discussion about Low-German is that
Linguist trie to devide
the dialects in smooth borders. That is not so easy to do.
As I look to the resemblance of "Westvlams" with Low-Saxon, or even with
modern German,
and against that I see the differences between "Westvlams" and  modern
Dutch, then I can
hardly see "Westvlams" as a dutch dialect. Also I would say that "Westvlams"
is a dialect with
at least saxon roots, so it would do not much right to call "Westvlams" a
Low-Franconian dialiect.
Another thing is that West-, Middle- and East-Germany since the Middle Ages
was settled down
with People from Holand and Flanders. And that even til 1945 in Prussia,
Königsberg, a dialect
was spoken that was verry simelar to Flemish.

Kind regards,
David

> From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (05) [D/E]
>
>       Hello,
>
>       I was struck in the text below by the sentence: "we call ourselves
> Diets". I can't imagine anyone in Flemish Belgium and in the Netherlands
> today who would call his language "Diets" . This an historical term
denoting
> the tongue spoken in the Middle Ages by the Flemish and the Dutch. To
people
> of my generation  Diets is, to say the least, a suspect word. It is a
> (politically) "loaded" term, since it was - in the thirties and during the
> second world war -  a preferential word with ultra-rightist people
striving
> for a Flemish secession from Belgium or for a union of Flanders and the
> Netherlands in a kind of "new order". Diets is a word that has
unfortunately
> been abused and as such has fallen out of favour. I am under the
impression
> that today even right-wing people are reticent to use it. It goes without
> saying that I do not want to imply anything improper in connection with
the
> author of the text below.
>
>       Roger H.

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Language varieties

Beste Éric,

When you wrote:

>This thread has become quite interesting to me as I see that language
and
>identity are still intertwined in humans' psyche and even in people who
vie
>for diversity of language in a political entity that is supposed to
become a
>more plurilingual society i.e. the European Union.

I had to think involuntarily of how much time (many centuries, if not
millennia) it cost western, European society to segregate religious and
governmental authority. This was accomplished roughly 200 years ago in
many European countries thanks to the (then) "modern" concept of
statebuilding that accelerated this evolution. So if we want to
discriminate now between "language" and "identity", I think that we need
a new kind of "citizenship" that updates old-style membership of a
nation. I have this feeling that computers will play an important role
in the creation of this new (global) "community", as they allow
information to spread much more quickly than ever before and on a wider
scale. In this respect, LL-list is truly a step in the right direction,
as it transcends boundaries of many kinds...let's be grateful that we
have such a visionary guy like R.H.!

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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