LL-L "Names" 2004.05.04 (05) [E/S]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: jmaguire at pie.xtec.es <jmaguire at pie.xtec.es>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.05.03 (10) [E/S]

You seem to have covered it all, Sandy, except for the Dutch
tomatoes :)

Tom [Maguire]

> From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
> Subject: "Names" [E]
>
> > From: Tom Maguire <jmaguire at pie.xtec.es>
> > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.05.02 (03) [E]
> >
> > The misconception is that one dialect in the same language
can override
> > another. If the Lowlands dialect understands "Scotch" as
relating to a
> > liquid and not to people, why shouldn't the referred-to
people not
> > insist that other dialects of the same language follow suit
and not
> > confuse them with a liquid? Seems to me little to ask.
>
> Oh wait - you think "Scotch" is whisky? In which case I'm
only 74% Scotch
> :)
>
> No, the word is much more versatile than this, referring,
even in the books
> of the strictest Scottish primary school teachers, also to
tomatoes, tape
> (as a brand name) and a certain kind of mist. It's really
just an adjective
> and in Scotland is generally accepted for these kinds of
things, though like
> I said, some Scots speakers simply use the word to
mean "Scottish".
>
> The use of this word by Scottish writers covers all sorts of
grounds, from
> scholarly essays to Edwardian sixpenny novelettes, from the
Borders to the
> "Doric", from Burns to McGonagall:
>
> A wee bit thocht frae a wee Scots lass
> To help you while the lang oors pass;
> A wee drap love frae a wee Scots body-
> It's as guid for the he'rt as guid Scotch toddy!
>
> - from Random Rhymes, by "Rab O'Reekie".
>
> Kirk of the Covenant, Kirk of the Free,
> Scotch Presbyterian Kirk now for me,
>
> - from "The Braes of the Carse" by Charles Spence
>
> "Weel spoke my partner," cried the De'il,
> "Nocht beats a gude Scotch dance or reel:"
>
> - from Maggie o' the Moss, by Robert Kerr
>
> Sheep-head kail was countit a denty,
>     Scotch haggis, the king o' a' meats;
>
> - from Kilwuddie, by James Nicholson
>
> We blithely listened to their screeds o' what they'd dune and
seen
> On this same nicht, lang years ago, - the auld Scotch
Hallowe'en.
>
> - from Hallowe'en Memories, by Robert McLean Calder
>
> Then Dod sang fine "The Auld Scotch Sangs,'
> =A lady, "Annie Lowrie";
>
> - from Sangs o' Bairns and Hame.
>
> Methinks some auld Scotch proverb says
>     "As ae door steeks anither opens;"
>
> - from As Ae Door Steeks, by Alex Rodger
>
> Then words would pass we dare not name -
> Dark epithets of sin and shame,
> And vengeful threats and foul reproach,
> In neither English, Erse, nor Scotch,
>
> - from John o Arnha', by Geaorge Beattie
>
> WE'LL turn't again in guid braid Scotch,
>     Gin ye'll but lend yer lugs-
> A glint o' sunshine in the hairt
>     Is worth a kist o' drugs.
>
> - from Auld Saws in New Scots Sangs, by T Whyte Paterson
>
> That's yin o' the things the country bates the toon for, guid
Scotch music.
>
> - from Betty's Trip tae Edinbury, by "Black Spider".
>
> A SCOTCH FAIRMER'S PRAYER - title of a poem by George Abel
in "Wylins fae My
> Wallet".
>
> Then ye should ha'e heard Walter's wife; roarin' at Maggie in
washin'-hoose
> Scotch, ca'in' her for this and that, and shakin' her kneive
in her face.
>
> - from "The Amateur Barber", by Joe Corrie.
>
> Also, Shakespeare and Sir Walter Scott,
> Which by Englishmen and Scotchmen will neer be forgot.
>
> - from Jottings of New York, by William McGonagall.
>
> The essays by Scots scholars in "The Scottish Tongue",
including some
> well-known writers in Scots such as John Buchan and J M
Bulloch, involves
> copious use of the word "Scotch". Here's and example of it
being used along
> with "Scots":
>
> "Of the language of the Scots, which meant originally
Irishmen, the Scotch
> Gaelic is a more broken-down form than its mother language
which survives in
> western Ireland.  What the language of the Picts was we
hardly know, for
> their inscriptions, as Andrew Lang said, if correctly
transcribed, seem to
> represent a language which is hardly human.  When we talk of
Scotch or
> Scots, we think only of the dialect of English which has
gradually spread
> until it has almost covered the whole land, and yet outside
the Lothians,
> which the English early colonized, it spread but gradually
and slowly from
> little town to little town all along the coast, round the
headlands of
> Fifeshire, and slowly up by the bays of Forfar to Aberdeen
and thence to
> Banff, Cullen, Elgin, and Inverness."
>
> Oh, and so on! But culminating in one by the greatest of all:
>
> My coat and my vest, they are Scotch o' the best,
>     O' pairs o' guid breeks I ha'e twa, man,
> And stockings and pumps to put on my stumps,
>     And ne'er a wrang steek in them a', man.
>
> - from The Tarbolton Lassies, by Robert Burns.
>
> Sandy
> http://scotstext.org/
>
> ----------
>
> From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
> Subject: "Names" [E]
>
> > From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
> > Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.05.03 (03) [E]
> >
> > > Sandy says:
> > >
> > > > Ignorant in what way? Why is it ignorant to
say "Scotch"?
> >
> > Isn't anybody finally going to tell me what "Scotch
tomatoes" are?
> >
> > Ignorantly,
> > Gabriele Kahn
>
> A strain of tomatoes grown in Scotland - more like Dutch
tomatoes than
> English.
>
> Sandy
> http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: Gavin Falconer <Gavin.Falconer at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.05.03 (09) [E]

I wouldn't say that "Sassenach" is nearly as pejorative or racist as the
other word mentioned.  It often crops up in English parodies of the Scots
and, given the cultural fixation of, and negative attitudes towards,
distinctively Scottish speech, may even provoke a kind of kailyard cringe in
some people.

One interesting point that few people pick up on is that, although
Gaelic-speaking Highlanders used the word "Sasunnach" as an insult for
Lowlanders, there was no Saxon element in Lowland Scotland, since it was
settled by Angles.  It's probably akin to the use of "Erse" ('Irish') by
Lowlanders for Gaelic, both words implying that the culture thus denominated
is in some way less Scottish than one's own and harking back to
extraterritorial origins in Northumbria and Ireland respectively.  The
Highlanders would have called themselves "Gaidheil", with "Eireannach" being
a purely geographical word.

--
All the best,

Gavin

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From: Gavin Falconer <Gavin.Falconer at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.05.03 (09) [E]

I wouldn't say that "Sassenach" is nearly as pejorative or racist as the
other word mentioned.  It often crops up in English parodies of the Scots
and, given the cultural fixation of, and negative attitudes towards,
distinctively Scottish speech, may even provoke a kind of kailyard cringe in
some people.

One interesting point that few people pick up on is that, although
Gaelic-speaking Highlanders used the word "Sasunnach" as an insult for
Lowlanders, there was no Saxon element in Lowland Scotland, since it was
settled by Angles.  It's probably akin to the use of "Erse" ('Irish') by
Lowlanders for Gaelic, both words implying that the culture thus denominated
is in some way less Scottish than one's own and harking back to
extraterritorial origins in Northumbria and Ireland respectively.  The
Highlanders would have called themselves "Gaidheil", with "Eireannach" being
a purely geographical word.

--
All the best,

Gavin

Gavin Falconer

"Tharfor wordly happe es ay in dout
Whilles dam fortune turnes hir whele about."

----------

From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.05.03 (13) [E/LS]

At 08:17 PM 05/03/04 -0700, Andy wrote:
> > I was always under the impression that the adjective or noun Scotch is
an
> > Early Modern English contraction of the word Scottish that was later
>adopted
> > into Scots.

Here's comments offered by Ron back in 1998, when the subject was before us
I think the first time:

L O W L A N D S - L * 28.MAR.1998 (03) *
From: R. F. Hahn
Subject: Scots (or Scotch?)
Here is a basic question: Am I right in assuming that, at least originally,
"Scots" and "Scotch" corresponded to what in English would be "Scottish"
(i.e. /skot+ish/, a denominal adjective). Does not also Scots have the
denominal adjectival suffix /-(i)sh/ that exists in all other Lowlands
languages as _-ish_ (English), _(i)sch_ ~ _(i)sk_ ~ _(i)s_ (Low
Saxon), _(i)sk_ ~ _(i)sch_ (Frisian), _-(i)s_ (Dutch, Afrikaans). If it
does, then I assume that both "Scots" and "Scotch" are derived from
"Scottish." The form "Scotch" could be nicely explained this way: the /i/
was dropped (or never came to be inserted in the first place, if it is
epenthetic?), hence ("Scottish" >?) "Scotsh" = "Scotch." (This is regular
in Low Saxon, e.g. _Schotsch_ (_Schottsch_) [SCtS] 'Scottish', 'Scots',
where the intermediate /i/ is used only where _-sch_ cannot follow
directly, e.g. _Russisch_ 'Russian', but then again _Freissch_ (_Freesch_)
'Frisian'.) But what about the form Scots"? Are there Scots dialects that
regularly use the denominal adjectival suffix form _-(i)s_ where other
dialects have _-(i)sh_, hence also _Inglis_ vs _Inglish_ (cf. Low Saxon
_Ingelsch_) 'English'? If so, I could understand the creation of the form
"Scots" vs the form "Scotch" (perhaps more consistently and thus
appropriately spelled "Scotsh" < /skot+sh/), namely as dialectal
variants.  Of course, even when this has been established, the question
which form to use "officially" still remains.

Ed (again).  Perhaps my favourite remarks were from Fr Andreas  (contained
in the same posting), who was our greatest Appalachian contributor ever and
is shore missed some:

From: fr.andreas at juno.com (Richard L Turner)
Subject: Scotch
Hey ar!
Sandy, A wuz astudyin on at question ye ast abaot th word "Scotch" an who
sed it. When A wuz agrowin up, erbody sed "Scotch" hyer in East
Tennysee.   Lately though, whenivver ye hyir it, hit's "Scots" fum th craod
at goes t th Games an "Scotch" fum em at'd druther go fishin.  Forgive the
attempt to render Appalachian into writing, but I must assume
that many of you only hear it in the occasional (dreadfully
inaccurate)  film. The point I attempt here to make is that the word
"Scotch" is losing its currency among the people here who most care for
Scotland and its culture, albeit the highland half of the culture.  The
other thing that I have noticed about the Scottish-Americans, in general,
who go to the Games and the Festivals is that they are remarkably stuffy.
This stuffiness, almost a walking taxidermy of the living culture whose
existence they attempt to preserve, must account for the change from
"Scotch" to "Scots".
If hit warnt fer the music, A'd as leif go fishin.
Best regards,
Fr Andreas Turner.

Ed Alexander

----------

From: Thomas <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.05.03 (13) [E/LS]

on 4/5/04 13:17, Lowlands-L at lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET wrote:

> An A winna caw ye "Scotch."
Lucky fur Yew ! :-)
Regards
Tom
Tom Mc Rae PSOC
Brisbane Australia
"The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude,
To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang,
And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang."
>>From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess'

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