LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.11.03 (03) [E/Germany]

Lowlands-L lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Wed Nov 3 18:17:11 UTC 2004 

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L O W L A N D S - L * 03.NOV.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Franz Firla <f.firla at web.de>
Subject: "Language varieties"


Guten Tag Ron,

die alten Mülheimer sehen sich absolut nicht als Bergisch Sprechende, im
Gegenteil, sie grenzen sich davon ab, obwohl die Grenze  nur wenige
Kilometer südlich von Mülheim liegt und es in dem ländlichen Bereich immer
schon Vermischungen gab.

Ich habe diese Liste auch irgendwo im Internet gesehen.Ich halte sie für
fragwürdig. Neuere Sprachkarten des Landschaftsverbandes Rheinland nennen
den grenzüberschreitenden Bereich von der Maas (Limburg) bis zur Ruhr, zu
dem Mülheim ganz knapp noch gehört: Südniederfränkisch. Nördlich davon dann
das Kleverländische. Ich habe mir Mundarttonbeispiele von Geldern, bei
Kleve, angehört und festgestellt, dass von der Aussprache her ( ach-ch für
g) Mölmsch durchaus eher dem Kleverländischen ähnelt als dem Limburgischen.
Allerdings zeigt ein Vergleich des Limburgisch-Wörterbuchs mit unserem eine
bestechende Übereinstimmung im Vokabular. Diese Limburger Predigt von 1729
z.B.läßt sich ohne Schwierigkeiten (abgesehen von dutch-based-spelling) in
Mölmsch übertragen.
Und diese jeweils andere Rechtschreibung, auch innerhalb des Ortsdialekts,
verstellt vielfach die Sicht auf die grenzüberschreitenden Gemeinsamkeiten.
Deshalb halte ich eine Übertragung für Diskussionsteilnehmer wünschenswert,
aber es wäre - ich denke da an mein Kleine-Prinz-Angebot  - eine wahnsinnige
Arbeit.

Mir kam schon mal die Idee, dass man doch ein Computerprogramm entwickeln
könnte, das die verschiedenen Rechtschreibungen - wobei die niederländische
und deutsche für mich die wichtigste wäre - sozusagen "automatisch"
überträgt?

Mit der limburgischen Grenzregion hat sich der Landschaftsverband Rheinland
ausführlich beschäftigt.Ich hatte Herrn Dr. Cornelissen schon einmal auf
LOWLANDS aufmerksam gemacht. Aber vielleicht wäre es gut, wenn man ihn
einmal für eine Stellungnahme anschriebe:
Georg.Cornelissen at lvr.de

Die Übersetzung der Eingangsseite in Mölmsch wäre sicher interessant; die
Zahl derer, die sich per Internet mit Mölmsch auseinandersetzen, ist nach
meiner Erfahrung allerdings sehr klein.Also, lassen wir uns etwas Zeit.

Franz

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.11.02 (04) [E/German]

> >>>>>A good example of Low Franconian dialect in the Netherlands is the
> North Limburgish band "Rowwen Hèze",
>  who've gained  national fame, or rather international because in Belgium
> they are well known too. Maybe in Germany too, but that I don't know.
>
> They are from the village America, just a few kilometres out of the
> Limburgish dialect region. Their dialect has many traits that remind of
real
> Limburgish,  so it might be similar to Bergisch in Germany?
>But it looks even more like Eastern Brabantish to me (I lived there for
over 12 years)
>and Kleverländisch (spoken where I live nowadays).

> When you click on
>
> www.1001artiesten.nl/lyric.php?HitsID=250&ArtistNameID=94
>
> you can read their lyrics (in Dutch orthography) and here some of them as
well.
>
Enjoy it!
> Ingmar
>
> > > From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> > > Subject: Language varieties
> > >
> > > Folks,
> > >
> > > Here is the thing.  We need to come to an agreement how to refer to
the
> > Low
> > > Franconian dialects of Germany (Northrhine-Westphalia) as a group or
> > groups
> > > or alternatively allocate them typologically to Low Franconian groups
> used
> > > in Belgium and the Netherlands.  This is all the more urgent now that,
> > > happily, Franz Firla has been representing the Mölm/Mühlheim dialect.
> > >
> > > I have done a bit of research.  The upshot of it is that the Low
> > Franconian
> > > dialects of Germany (close to the Belgian and Netherlands borders,
> > generally
> > > lumped together with Lowlands Saxon under "Platt" in Germany) are
> > generally
> > > classified two dialect groups as follows:
> > >
> > > * Limburgish-Bergish
> > >       * Eastern Limburgish
> > >          (Krefeld, Mönchengladbach, Viersen, Heinsberg, Mettmann,
> > >          Northern Neuss district)
> > >       * Bergish
> > >          (Düsseldorf, Solingen, Remscheid, Mülheim an der Ruhr,
> > >          Wuppertal)
> > > * Southern Gelderland Low Franconian
> > >       * Cleves-Wesel (Klevisch-Weselisch, a.k.a. Kleverländisch)
> > >
> > > So, according to this model we are talking about German-administered
> > > or -dominated "outposts" of two languages that are primarily used in
the
> > > Netherlands (though Limburgish also in Belgium).  This makes Franz's
> > dialect
> > > a part of Limburgish (hence my use of [L] for his posting today).  Are
> the
> > > dialects of Southern Gelderland, Netherlands, considered parts of
Dutch?
> > >
> > > Anyway, what do you think about this?  I very much hope that Franz and
> his
> > > dialect are just a beginning for Low Franconian of Germany on the
List.
> > For
> > > this reason we need to come to some sort of classification agreement.

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From: Mathieu. van Woerkom <Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.ru.nl>
Subject: Language varieties

Ingmar Roerdinkholder wrote:
> The Southern Gelderland dialects, spoken in the area I live myself,
> are certainly considered as part of Dutch.
> These dialects are very close to Standard Dutch, compared with Dutch
> Lower Saxon or Dutch Limburgish dialects.
> The same dialect is spoken as Kleverländisch in Germany around the
> city of Cleves.

and:
> The Northern dialects of the Province
> of Limburg, however, are no Limburgish dialects,
> because they miss all the special features.
> These North Limburg dialects form in fact one group with
> Kleverländisch and Southern Gelders.
> And all the latter can be considered as part of the great
> Brabantish group, also called the Southern Central group of
> Dutch dialect.

Ingmar is absolutely right, the dialects of southern Gelderland, northern
Limburg and Kleverland are (a sub branche of) Dutch. They are quite
easily understood by Dutch speakers, I guess.

The map on http://www.mundart.net/rheinische_sprachen.htm is very good, I
think. Take a look. The 'Kleverländisch' is strongly related to (the)
Dutch (dialects) on the other side of the border. The variety
'Südniederfränkisch' is called Limburgish on this list and in the
Netherlands, of course including Belgian Limburg (not on the map).
'Ripuarisch' is a very common name for the dialects in the Cologne (Köln)
area, and are Middle Franconian (Middle German). Limburgish is indeed a
transistion area between Lower and Middle Franconian, as it is really
different from both the Dutch varieties on the one side and the
Ripuarian-German varieties on the other side.

This leaves us with the question how to call the norhern
Limburgish/southern Gelders and Kleverländisch dialects alltogether. I
would vote for 'Zuidgelders' or 'Southern Gelders', because the entire
area used to be part of the old duchy of Gelre.

Groeten,
Mathieu

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks, guys.

So let's call "Southern Gelderland Franconian," abbreviated as [SG].  If
anyone writes in Cleves area dialects I'll label it as "Dutch" [D].  How
about that?

Regards,
Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

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