LL-L "Orthography" 2004.11.12 (02) [E]

Fri Nov 12 17:49:44 UTC 2004

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.11.11 (08) [E]

Ron schreev:
>
> In the case of Lowlands Saxon, the question is if few marked occurrences
of
> prevocalic /s-/ in a handful of dialects should require the entire
language
> to give up the conventional spelling <s-> before vowels, where the vast
> majority of occurences, all native, would come to be spelled with a <z>
> (which in Germany is connected with the pronunciation [ts]).
>
No, it cannot require that. Not for the entire language. I was only
speaking about my local dialect. I won't accept an orthography for the
entire language that includes a z for /z/, and I never even write my own
dialect using a z. As I've said before, the context will make clear
which meaning is intended. After all, the main idea of an orthography is
to express your thoughts in writing, not to exactly resemble the spoken
word.

Henry

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.11.11 (08) [E]

Ron schreev:
 >
> In the case of Lowlands Saxon, the question is if few marked occurrences
of
> prevocalic /s-/ in a handful of dialects should require the entire
language
> to give up the conventional spelling <s-> before vowels, where the vast
> majority of occurences, all native, would come to be spelled with a <z>
> (which in Germany is connected with the pronunciation [ts]).
>
By the way, would you mind if someone, trying to stick to ANS or
whatever, spelt soups as "ssupen"? I wouldn't do that, but let's suppose
someone would. Would that be acceptable?

Henry

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.11.11 (07) [E]

Ron schreev:
>
> I believe you are referring to the North Saxon dialect group, which, at
> least in area, is the largest.
>
Ron, are you aware of any good estimates regarding numbers of speakers?
I noticed your own estimates in the ethnologue at christuxrex.org, but
that doesn't say anything about the number of speakers per region.

> As a general rule, German speakers of North Saxon dialects have little
> to no
> problems understanding *any* dialect used in Germany, either spoken or
> written.
 >
I've spoken with a few speakers of North Saxon dialects, and they didn't
have much trouble following my dialect either. One example is this
German colleague I had from Rostock, he had trouble speaking to my other
(Dutch-speaking) colleagues, but we were able to speak pretty well in Saxon.

On a side note: I also showed him some texts I had in an orthography
similar to ANS, and he had no trouble reading that either.

> Yes, speakers in Germany, except those close to the border, do stumble
over
> what may or may not be considered Dutch loans in the dialects of the
> Netherlands.
 >
I'd like to make a list sometime of Dutch loans in Saxon dialects of the
Netherlands. Has anyone started such a thing yet?

> The point of this diatribe I'm in danger of getting lost in here is
> supposed to be that much of what you hear tends to be overblown.
Diversity? Yes.
> Communication problems? Not a lot, at least not when the spoken word is
> involved.
 >
One more example: Kenneth and I both write in ANS and NYS (my own thing,
basically ANS with a few small differences) to eachother, and have no
trouble understanding eachother. Right Kenneth? Yet he speaks a
North-Saxon variant, while I speak a somewhat archaic West-Saxon variant.

> In short, as I see it, the remaining obstacles are these, in this order:
>
> (1) language education > awareness > (re)unification
> (2) language-specific orthographic reform
>
> In my opinion, the second cannot precede the first.
>
I agree, thoughRon schreev:
 >
> In the case of Lowlands Saxon, the question is if few marked occurrences
of
> prevocalic /s-/ in a handful of dialects should require the entire
language
> to give up the conventional spelling <s-> before vowels, where the vast
> majority of occurences, all native, would come to be spelled with a <z>
> (which in Germany is connected with the pronunciation [ts]).
>
By the way, would you mind if someone, trying to stick to ANS or
whatever, spelt soups as "ssupen"? I wouldn't do that, but let's suppose
someone would. Would that be acceptable?

Henry

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Henry (above):

> By the way, would you mind if someone, trying to stick to ANS or
> whatever, spelt soups as "ssupen"? I wouldn't do that, but let's suppose
> someone would. Would that be acceptable?

No, be my guest!  As long as you don't opt for _ßupen_ ... :-)

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard,Ron

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