LL-L "Etymology" 2004.11.13 (05) [D/E/LS]

Sat Nov 13 21:28:52 UTC 2004

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Rikus Kiers <kiersbv at tiscali.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.11.13 (01) [E]

MoiReinhardt/Ron

Toonbank:
Bank (dutch) is a desk or counter.
Toon comes from the verb 'tonen' which means to show, to demonstrate,. to
display.
So a "toonbank"is a counter on which the goods or products were displayed or
demonstrated in the proces of selling and buying in shops.It was the place
where the customer paid too. It is from times when self-service was not yet
invented. It is still used in most of our shops, even if there is
self-service.
De toonbankis closed at the side of the customers and at the side of the
personnel there are under 'de toonbank' shelves or tills(drawers)on or in
which al kind of materials are stored
which may help for quick and servicefull acting.

Rikus Kiers

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.11.13 (01) [E]

>>>>> I would consider it at first sight as toon + bank, from _tonen_ = to
show, and _bank_ = bench.
_Tonen_ is a rather formal sounding equivalent of _laten zien_ , show.
I think in Flanders it is used in all day speech as well, in the Netherlands
we only say _laten zien_.
Example: _Toon me uw boeken en ik zeg u wie u bent_ = show me your books and
I'll tell you who you are.

According to Jan de Vries'  Nederlands Etymologisch Woordenboek, tonen comes
from Middel Dutch tônen or tôghenen, related to Old Saxon tôgian and Old
High German zougen. Gothic  at-augjan  and Old English æt-iewan prove the
initial t in tonen to
be a prefix.
And indeed, there are forms without t:
Middel Dutch ôghen, Old Low Franconian ôgon and ôginon, Old Saxon ôgian, Old
English eawan, eowan, iewan,
Old Frisian âwa, Old Norse eygja and Gothic augjan.
These words all have to do with eye, Auge, oog.

Since Modern Dutch is mostly derived from Low Franconian,  *at-ôginon or
*tôginon will be the direct ancestors of tonen,
but I only reconstructed these forms, they are not found in old texts.

The Dutch word _toneel_ = theatre, drama, stage, is originally from French
tinel (retinue at the court) < Italian tinello (tup), but became its o under
the influence of the verb tonen.

Ron, whenever you want to know something about Dutch etymology, you can ask
me and I'll look it up for you in this excellent dictionary. Hold fast!
Ingmar

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.11.13 (01) [E]

>>>>> Coming to think of it, I just remember that I must have a pocket
version too of the same Dutch Etymological Dictionary somewhere.
Reinhard, I'd like to give that to you as a token of my feelings of respect
and affection to you... which I do not always _toon_ enough.
I'll look it up between my old books at the loft, and if you are interested
please give me your home address so I can send it to you.
Hold fast! Ingmar

----------

From: Grietje MENGER <grietje at menger.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.11.13 (01) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Folks,
>
> Can any of you enlighten me about the origin of the Low German (Dutch,
> Afrikaans, Lowlands Saxon, etc.) word _toonbank_ '(shop) counter'?  And is
> the _toom-_ in Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch) _Toomdesch_ related
> to it (_Desch_ being 'table')?

_toon_ would be from _tonen_ , to show / to showcase. So a _toonbank_ is a
bench to show / display something on.
One can use _tonen_ also in the sense of _dat toont niet_ in the meaning of
_that doesn't look good_.
It appears to me to be akin to _tone_ (tonus) as in _muscletone_ where the
tension of the muscle makes it stand out and be visible.
Van Dale Etymologish woordenboek (Van Veen / Van der Sijs, 1997) rates
_tonen_ as an 'erfwoord', thus a word original to the Dutch language.
1201-1250 midelnd _tonen_ middelhd _zo(u)nen_ fries _teane_ , _toane_
middeleng _taunen_ gotisch _ataugjan_ (to bring something in front of one's
eyes) thereby a derivation of _oog_.

Grietje Menger
Scotland

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From: Mathieu. van Woerkom <Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.ru.nl>
Subject: Etymology

Ron schreef:

> Can any of you enlighten me about the origin of the Low German (Dutch,
> Afrikaans, Lowlands Saxon, etc.) word _toonbank_ '(shop) counter'?  And
> is
> the _toom-_ in Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch) _Toomdesch_
> related
> to it (_Desch_ being 'table')?

Well, the verb 'tonen' means 'to show', or in German: 'zeigen', so I think
the meaning is easy: it is the place on which products are being shown
before you would buy them (before self service shops prevailed)...

Regards,
Mathieu

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From: jean-luc.detilleux at skynet.be <jean-luc.detilleux at skynet.be>
Subject: Etymology

Hi Ron and all the Lowlanders,

Ron wrote:

>Folks,

>Can any of you enlighten me about the origin of the Low German (Dutch,

>Afrikaans, Lowlands Saxon, etc.) word _toonbank_ '(shop) counter'?

Dr. J. de Vries in Etymologisch Woordenboek, Aula 1973, ISBN 90 274 4812 2
4, wrote:

"Tonen staat naast tôgen , osaks. tôgian, ohd. zounen, waarvan de herkomst
duidelijk wordt door got. ataugian; het grondwoord is dus een afleiding van
oog en komt ook zelfstandig voor. osaks. ôgian,  oeng iewan, onoors eygia,
got augjan. de samenstelling *at-augian betekent dus 'iets voor de ogen
brengen'. De vorm van tonen heeft men willen verklaren uit een grondvorm
*at-awnan  dus met een vokalisatie van g tussen u en n, wat hypothetisch
blijft. Maar de opvatting dat tonen een vorm van togen zou zijn, is ook
onzeker."

I hope this can help you satisfy your curiosity, Ron.

Best regards,

Jean-Luc Detilleux

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From: Jo Thys <Jo.Thijs1 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.11.13 (01) [E]

Ron,
about 'toonbank'

> So, apparently it's a "_toon_-bench."

Dutch tonen ( toon-) is also a  verb meaning to show. A toonbank is a bench
where the salesware is showed.

De Vandale etymological (not the most recent though) gives:
tonen (laten zien) Middeldutch, Middellowgerman tonen, Middelhighgerman
zo(u)nen, Fries teane, middeleng. taunen, gotisch atuagjan (iets voor ogen
brengen), therefore being an derivation from oog. (strange logic).

Concerning toom it states

toom (teugel:'rein), Middeldutch.toom, Oldlowerfrankish, Middeldutch (tom),
Oldhighgerman zoum, Oldfries tam, OldEnglish team (span of oxes), Oldnors
taumr, from the same base as tijgen. (No letter-accents)
tijgen (trekken, beginnen) van middelnl. tiën (cf. be-tijen): vgl
OldlowFrankish tian, tion, OldSaxish tiohan, Oldhighgerman ziohan, oldeng.
teon, gotic tiuhan, cognate with Latin ducere.

>My lack of access to a Dutch etymological dictionary is starting to become
a
>real handicap.

So you often call Dutch a calque of French, or Saxon as the main origin of
English, without even acces till Dutch etymology? Tss,tss.;.). Onbekend
maakt onbemind.

Vriendelijke groeten

Jo Thys

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.11.13 (01) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> By the way, I find it interesting that Scots _stuil_
> can denote not only a
> stool but also a bench or a counter (plus a
> tree-stump).
>
> In Lowlands Saxon _stoul_ (pl. _stoyl_) denotes
> 'chair', while a stool is a
> _huyker_ ("squatter") or a _schemel_ (< Latin
> _scamillus_, _scamellum_,
> diminutive of _scamnum_ 'bench'), but the latter
> tends to specify a
> footstool in most cases.
>
> Thanks in anticipation!
> Reinhard/Ron

Reinhard,

een kleine noot bij stoel enz.:
'stoel' in de betekenis van 'zitten' is van latere oorsprong.
'stoel' zit in de woordfamilie /staan/, een woordfamilie met vele
voortbrengselen.
Dus zo is 'stal' de plaats waar de beesten 'staan'.
Je begrijpt nu dus ook dat een 'preekstoel' nooit een plek om te zitten is
geweest, maar de plek waar je moest staan om te preken. Stel je een
middeleeuwse kathedraal/klooster voor, en voorin had je het koor waar de
kanunikken stonden, en in hun 'houten stoelen/nissen' was een plankje waar
je staand de billen op kon laten rusten; en degene die de preek gaf moest
gaan staan in de preekstoel.

Je begrijpt dus ook dat het woord 'paddestoel' een recent woord moet zijn,
want een paddestoel is geen stoel. Als je wil wel een 'kruk' net als het
engelse 'stool' en op zo'n 'kruk/stool' kun je wel een pad denken. Ik denk
dan ook dat 'paddestoel' een leenvertaling is uit het engels uit de 19e
eeuw, en zo het oudere 'zwam' vervangen heeft.
Jaja, zelfs over 'stoel' is wel het een en ander te zeggen.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

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From: John Dykstra <dexter at execulink.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.11.13 (01) [E]

Toonbank
In Dutch "tonen" is to show (Sing 1st= ik toon), hence a Toonbank Show(ing)
counter.
Before the modern era smaller towm and country stores would have a display
of "specials" on the counter where the business was conducted, a
table/counter of substantila length.

It Bêste
John

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From: Gustaaf van Moorsel <gvanmoor at aoc.nrao.edu>
Subject: Etymology

Ron wrote:

> So, apparently it's a "_toon_-bench."  What does the first part denote?

Tonen = to show/display.  So toonbank = display-counter.

Gustaaf

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From: Arend Victorie <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: Toonbank

Moi Ron,

Toon'bank stiet in 't van Dale woordenboek(Nederlands) beschreven as
"Winkeltaofel, uutstalbaank." Werkwoord tonen (Nederlands) betiekent ok
"iets laoten zien."
Het is dus een taofel, waor as de winkelier zien handel op uut'estald hef.
 In 't woordenboek der Drentse dialecten kan ik de beschrieving toonbank
niet vienden.

Goed gaon,
Arend Victorie.

----------

From: Floor en Lyanne van Lamoen <fvanlamoen at planet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.11.13 (01) [E]

Dear Reinhard,

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Folks,
>
> Can any of you enlighten me about the origin of the Low German (Dutch,
> Afrikaans, Lowlands Saxon, etc.) word _toonbank_ '(shop) counter'?  And is
> the _toom-_ in Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch) _Toomdesch_ related
> to it (_Desch_ being 'table')?
>
> I don't find _Tonbank_ in German dictionaries, but I grew up using it in
> both Missingsch and "better" Northern German.  I suppose the Standard
> German
> word is _Ladentisch_, which I, a _Hamborger Buttje_, later learned to use
> in
> communicating with _Quiddjes_ ('non-Hamburgers' or 'non-Northerners').
>
> So, apparently it's a "_toon_-bench."  What does the first part denote?
> To
> today's speakers there are two possibilities: 'sound'/'tone' or 'clay'
> (also
> 'toes' in a few dialects).  Was it originally a bench made from clay?  I
> remember seeing such things in Ancient Roman shops (oftentimes with holes
> on
> top accommodating vats of food).

No, the first part of the word _toonbank_ comes from the verb _tonen_ to
show.

Kind regards,
Floor.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks so much, everyone, for the overwhelming response to my question I
sent in just at the onset of witching hour this morning!  And what a
response it's been!  Now I know how to make rarely heard voices come out of
the woodwork: submit questions that beg for the answer "Duh, silly!"  ;-)

And silly it was.  A connection between _toonbank_ and _tonen_ didn't even
occur to me, even though I was aware of the meaning of Dutch _tonen_,
though, admittedly, I didn't know its etymology and was very interested to
find out about it, so thanks for that, too.  (It isn't exactly intuitive, is
it?)

I think the reason I didn't connect the dots was that I am not aware of a
verb _tonen_ 'to display' in the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects about
which I have better knowledge.  So I was looking for a connection with a
word that exists in those dialects as well.  A big mistake in etymologizing,
I must admit to my own shame and to everyones warning lesson.  For now I'm
conveniently chalking it down to "late-night mental deficiency."  (No, I
don't drink.)

By the way, I am aware of _toneel_ being used in Eastern Friesland LS to
denote either a stage or a play or performance.  (In other dialects we'd say
thinks like _speeldeel_, _speel_, etc.)  I had always assumed it was a
"spill-over" from the Netherlands and hadn't taken the time to investigate
further.  But perhaps I'm not living by my own preaching there, thinking in
terms of political borders rather than in terms of simple spread (possible
before today's borders were drawn).  So I'm joining Jo in castigation of my
own pitiful self.

Now, as for an etymological Dutch dictionary, I do have access to one at the
library, though not a good a one as I should.  But I don't have one at home,
and I'm not in the habit of making special trips to the library whenever a
word arouses my curiosity, especially not in the middle of the night.

Ingmar:

> Ron, whenever you want to know something about Dutch etymology, you can
> ask me and I'll look it up for you in this excellent dictionary. Hold
> fast! Ingmar

> >>>>> Coming to think of it, I just remember that I must have a pocket
> version too of the same Dutch Etymological Dictionary somewhere.
> Reinhard, I'd like to give that to you as a token of my feelings of
> respect
> and affection to you... which I do not always _toon_ enough.
> I'll look it up between my old books at the loft, and if you are
> interested
> please give me your home address so I can send it to you.

Ah!  That's nice!  Thanks!  So I'll have one at home and have you as the
living de-luxe version.  I see we're still friends.  :-)

Hold fast!
Reinhard/Ron

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