LL-L "Orthography" 2004.11.14 (10) [E]

Mon Nov 15 04:15:13 UTC 2004

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L O W L A N D S - L * 14.NOV.2004 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2004.11.13 (03) [E]

Ingmar schreev:
>
>> From: Henry Pijffers
>> >
>> I think it were better if people from North-, West-, and East-Saxon
>> stuck their heads together, decided which words are common to all or
>> most variants, and then wrote those down in something like ANS. That
>> should be acceptable to most people.
>>
>>>>>> So you mean some kind of Low Saxon Middelsprake...
>
> But in that case a new standard dialect would be made.
 >
Nee, ik meane nit eyn soort van Middelsprake, mear bloots allenig dey
wöyrde te gebruken dey etselfde or sowat etselfde bint in de meeste of
alle dialekten, met möygelik vermeldingen van 1 of 2 varianten, so as
"hoes"/"huus" (ik gebruke hyr allenig Hollands-gebaseerde spelling vuyr
u gemak).

No, I don't mean some sort of Middelsprake. What I meant is to only use
for a dictionary those words that are the same or nearly the same in
most or all dialects, possibly allowing for 1 or 2 variants, like
"hoes"/"huus" (I'm only using Dutch-based spelling here for your
convenience).

> I might like that idea, depending of result. I wouldn't mind helping
> with it either.
 >
Daet idee (u idee) steyt my ok wal an, ik het der a lange aover nao dag
wur daet sol weasen, mear ik denke nit at et daor de tyd vuyr is nu, as
dey tyd ooit a kuemp.

I like the idea (your idea) too, I've been thinking how that would be
for a long time, yet I don't think that the time is ready for that, if ever.

> You know, I didn't have an idea how to use the ANS for my own dialect.
> I'll try to transliterate some text in ANS, probably one of my poems to
> see
> how it looks.
> Although I would prefer _ine_ or _iine_  and _bliven_ or _bliiven_ in
> stead
> of y....
 >
Y meant in open lettergrepen? Jao, daet heb ik wallicht ok wal leyver.
(Ron, Kenneth, wur het eynen lettergreep in et Noord-Saksysch?)

You mean in open syllables? Yeah, I might prefer that too.
(Ron, Kenneth, what's a syllable called in North Saxon?)

good gaon,
Henry, den sich vuyrnömmen hev mear in et Saksysch te schryven

----------

From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2004.11.13 (04) [E]

Ron schreev:
>
> I add an apostrophe in such cases to show not only that the _-e_ has
> been dropped but also that superlength applies.
>
Aha, nu snap ik et!

Ah, now I see.

> In some cases this can make a difference, such as in _huus_ [hu(:)s]
> 'house', 'home', vs _(na) huus'_ 'home(ward)' [hu:.z] (< _na huse_
> ['hu:ze]), or _lees!_ [le(:)s] 'read! vs _(ik) lees'_ [le:.z] '(I)
> read' (< _ik lese_ ['le:ze]).
 >
Mean y daet as y den apostrof der nit by doot, daet lue u dan nit
begrypt? Of mean y daet der minimale paoren bint, huus-huus' en lees-lees'?

Do you mean to say that if you do not add the apostroph that people will
misunderstand you? Or do you mean to say that their are minimal pairs
huus-huus' and lees-lees'?

Wat anders, in my dialekt "I read" is "ik lease" [lE:z@]
En hev u "lese" [le:ze] echt den lesten /e/ in IPA? Ik meane, muet daet
geyn schwa weasen?

By the way, in my dialect "I read" would be "ik lease" [lE:z@]
Oh, and does your "lese" [le:ze] really have that final /e/ in IPA? I
mean, shouldn't that be a schwa?

good gaon,
Henry

PS: Ingmar, dit is geyn ANS / this is not ANS

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Moyen, leyve Henry un luyd' altouhoup!

> Henry, den sich vuyrnömmen hev mear in et Saksysch te schryven

Goud so!  Denn man tou!  Ga as 'n biispeel vör an!

Great! Go for it!  Lead on with your example!

> > Although I would prefer _ine_ or _iine_  and _bliven_ or _bliiven_ in
> > stead
> > of y....

Ja, dat systeem is rejeller, konsekwenter, wyl dat wy 't mit dey annern
vokaal-teykens lyk so dout.  Daar mit har ik an-vungen, man later güng ik
d'n pad vun 't "y" (vun't Middel-Sassische), wyl dat 'n paar minschen dat
"ii" tou snaaksch vünnen (ofschoonst sey 't in 't Noord-Vreyssche ook bruken
dout), un wyl dat sey 't in 't Middel-Nedderlandsche ook bruken deen.

Yes, that system is more consistent with the spelling of other long vowels.
I started out with that, but then I took the path of (Middle Saxon) <y>.
because some people found this <ii> too weird (although it's used in North
Frisian as well) and because it was used in Middle Dutch as well.

> Y meant in open lettergrepen? Jao, daet heb ik wallicht ok wal leyver.
> (Ron, Kenneth, wur het eynen lettergreep in et Noord-Saksysch?)
>
> You mean in open syllables? Yeah, I might prefer that too.
> (Ron, Kenneth, what's a syllable called in North Saxon?)

In Duytschland bruukt wy daar 'n leenwourd vör: sülve ~ sülv' (<Sylv(e)>
[zY.lv(e)]) ~ sülbe ~ sülb' (<Sylb(e)> [zY.lb(e)]).

In Germany we use a loanword: sülve ~ sülv' (<Sylv(e)> [zY.lv(e)]) ~ sülbe ~
sülb' (<Sylb(e)> [zY.lb(e)]).

Nu up-passen mit d'n naam "Nourd-Sassisch"!  dat is nich dat sülvige as
"Sassisch in Duytschland".  Daar hoyrt dey dialekten vun Grönnen un
Nourd-Drenthe in dey Nedderlannen mit tou.

Careful with the use of the label "North Saxon"!  It isn't synonymous with
"Saxon in Germany."  It includes the dialects of Groningen and Northern
Drenthe in the Netherlands.

Wat anners: Mang us segt wi man bloots "Sassisch" un meynt daar mit
"Nedder-Sassisch," ne, Henry?

By the way, between us we just say "Saxon" for "Low(lands) Saxon."  Right,
Henry?

> Mean y daet as y den apostrof der nit by doot, daet lue u dan nit
> begrypt? Of mean y daet der minimale paoren bint, huus-huus' en
> lees-lees'?
>
> Do you mean to say that if you do not add the apostroph that people will
> misunderstand you? Or do you mean to say that their are minimal pairs
> huus-huus' and lees-lees'?

Nee.  Wen 'n dat appostroof nich schriven dayt, den wardt 't ook verstaan.
Man dat appostroof stayt 'neem annere in annere dialekten (so as diin) _-e_
hebt, un dey uutspraak is ook anners: _lees_ [le:s] vs _lees'_ [le:.z].

No.  It's usually understood if you don't use the apostrophe.  But it it
corresponds to _-e_ in other dialects (such as yours), and it signals a
difference in pronunciation: _lees_ [le:s] vs _lees'_ [le:.z].

> Wat anders, in my dialekt "I read" is "ik lease" [lE:z@]
> En hev u "lese" [le:ze] echt den lesten /e/ in IPA? Ik meane, muet daet
> geyn schwa weasen?
>
> By the way, in my dialect "I read" would be "ik lease" [lE:z@]
> Oh, and does your "lese" [le:ze] really have that final /e/ in IPA? I
> mean, shouldn't that be a schwa?

Ja, 'n barg dialekten hebt dat, man in miin (un ook in miin
Missingsch-Duytsch) hebt wi keyn schwa; daar is dat [e] or [3].

Yes, that's the case in many dialects, but in mine (and in my Missingsch
German) we don't have a _schwa_, use [e] or [3] instead.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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