LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.11.15 (10) [E]

Tue Nov 16 01:24:04 UTC 2004

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From: Reuben Epp <reuben at silk.net>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2004.11.15 (03) [E/LS]

>  jpkrause <jpkrause at sunflower.com wrote:
> Subject: Othography
>
> Orthography as some of you know, especially you, Ron  ;-)  always seems
> to make me quite bumfuzzled.  (For non-American English speakers,
> bumfuzzled means confused in the extreme)
> „Och, Vadder", segt sey, „hyr köym even so ’n groten buman vör by. Dey
> seyg’ so böys’ un schruterig uut! Dey gluup mit syn groten ogen na uns
> nest herin. Daar hebt wy uns so vör verveyrd!"
>
> If I had to read this story to a child, I don't know how I would get
> "kaum" out of "köym."
> Jim Krause

Reuben Epp reuben at silk.net responds:
Subject: Orthography

>>From my readings of old Low Prussian literature in West Prussia,
home of Plautdietsch, I gather that the predominant form of the first
person singular imperfect form of the verb 'to come' in Low Prussian/
Low Saxon dialects was 'keem.' In other words, 'I came' was spoken
as 'Ik keem,' with some variations in pronunciation of vowels, and
including palatalization of 'k' as in "ekj kjeem.' When the High German
language was imposed upon the Prussian populace by government
policy after 1772, many speakers of Plautdietsch accepted the
German form of the word 'kam' into Plautdietsch, but added their
own flavor by pronouncing it 'kaum.'

Today it is commonplace to hear among speakers of Plautdietsch the
equivalent of  'I came' as 'ekj kjeem' or 'ekj kaum.' Among those whose
forefathers sojourned more than a century in Russia, it is commonplace
to hear 'etj tjeem' and 'etj kaum.'

I realize that this only partially answers the question as to how 'kaum'
derived from 'köym,' but it illustrates some pronunciational variations in
Plautdietsch.

Reuben Epp

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks, Reuben, for clarifying that, also the Germanization part.
Furthermore, it prompts me to clarify what may not be totally clear to some,
especially to some Mennonite (Plautdietsch) dialect speakers.

It is very important to get away from the notion that one dialect (group)
that is used now is older than the other, that one is derived from the
other.  More concretely stated, Plautdietsch, North Saxon and all the other
(Lowlands) Saxon varieties are *sisters* that came from the same mother: the
Old Saxon language that started somewhere in what is now Holstein.

Plautdietsch did not develop from North Saxon (which I use), at least not
from the North Saxon dialects as they are now.  It is therefore wrong to see
Plautdietsch _kjeem_ and _tjeem_ as derived from North Saxon _koym_ (_köym_,
usually written <kööm> in Germany).  (And you, Reuben, have already
clarified that _kaum_ is a Germanism.)  Furthermore, let me hasten to add
that _koym_ (_köym_) is not the only North Saxon form of 'came'.  The other
form is _keym_ (usually written <keem> in Germany).    It sounds very much
like English "came."  I assume that it is the older form, that _koym_
(_köym_) is its labialized equivalent.  (In other words, the final /m/
caused the lips to be rounded while pronouncing /ei/.)

Indeed, found in medieval documents, the predominant Middle Saxon word for
'came' (3rd person singular) is _quêm_.  You cannot be totally sure how it
was pronounced.  We cannot be sure if the <qu> was pronounced like _kw_ or
like _kv_; I suspect it was pronounced very much like in Dutch now (which is
in between, with a labiodental glide).  There are still some Lowlands Saxon
dialects that have _kweym_ (<queem>).  We cannot be sure, either, if this
_ê_ stood for a long "e" ([e:]) or for an "ey" sound (as in English _came_).
Most people seem to assume the former, but I rather suspect that by that
time the diphthong pronunciation was a dialectal alternative at least.

So, _quêm_ occurs in Hanseatic documents, which offer a peek into medieval
North Saxon.  It was around that time that Saxon speakers (and German
speakers, plus people from the Low Countries) started colonizing the east,
taking their various dialects with them and developing them in the new lands
while absorbing Slavonic and Baltic speakers into their communities (in
other words, forcing their language onto the peoples they were colonizing).
As is the case with all Germanic varieties that went eastward, they took on
eastern, mostly Slavonic tints, most importantly unrounding of front rounded
vowels (ö > e, ü > i) and palatalization of velars (g > j, k > kj > tj).
This is what happened to the dialects spoken at the Vistula Delta when the
Mennonite forefathers arrived there from what are now the Netherlands and
Northern Germany.  It already had the the seeds for further changes typical
of Plautdietsch (e.g., e > a, a > au). The emigrant Mennonites adopted it
and developed it further on their eastward journey, partly under East
Slavonic and Turkic influences and partly under continuing influences of the
"good" language, German, which was used for liturgical and festive purposes.

This is not to say that eastward emigration stopped after medieval
colonization.  Clearly, people kept following the path, and the eastern
dialects kept being influenced at least somewhat.

In brief, though, you ought to assume that both Plautdietsch _kjeem_ ~
_tjeem_  and Modern North Saxon _keym_ ~ _koym_ are derived from medieval
_quêm_.

It is very important to stay clear of the notion that _Plautdietsch_ is some
aberrant form of _Plattdeutsch_, i.e., _Plattdüütsch_.  They ought to be
seen as equals, just as English and Scots are relatives, derived from the
same source (in the latter case from Old English/Anglo-Saxon).

_Plautdietsch_ and _Plattdüütsch_, members of the same language (Low(lands)
Saxon), aren't all that different, after all, though spelling conventions
make them look very different from each other, which is regrettable as far
as I am concerned.

I hope this helped.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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