LL-L "Etymology" 2004.11.25 (01) [D/E]

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.11.24 (05) [D/E]

> From: Jo Thys <Jo.Thijs1 at pandora.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.11.23 (08) [E/LS]
>
> p.s. Drenthe zou 'drie-hanze' betekenen, (Twente
> 'twee-hanze'), maar dat
> wist je waarschijnlijk al.
=================================

Hallo,

Wat  Drenthe / Twente betreft had ik altijd een prive-meninkje; maar met de
hier gegeven uitleg
schijnt het dat anderen die ook al hebben.

In oudgermaans worden sommige telwoorden ook verbogen [1,2,3,4].
En ze hadden vormen die gebruikt werden voor woorden die alleen in het
meervoud voorkwamen.
Drenthe: gevormd uit iets als: thrennir en tigir [tiental]
Twente: uit iets als tvennir en tigir.
Dus inderdaad een samengaan van een aantal gemeenschappen.

Tot zover,

vr.gr. Theo Homan

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.11.24 (05) [D/E]

>>>>> If the French words would come from an Italian form *harlecchino,
it is possible that Low Franconian *kerlkin became Tuscan *herlekino or
*kherlekino, because the 'Tuscan throat' is renowned in Italy for k > kh >
h.
As you said, the Old French words had E (herlequin etc) so the modern forms
with A may be due to an internal French development... Ingmar

> Reinhard wrote:
> Jo's mention of Flemish _menneke_ reminds me of French _mannequin_
> (modelling dummy) being derived from Dutch/Flemish diminutive _manneken_
> 'man' (like Scots _mannie_ perhaps).  This reminded me about a question
that
> came to my mind recently regarding the word "harlequin."  We know that the
> word and its variants in other languages comes from 16th-century French
> _(h)arlequin_, assumedly derived from Old French _Hellequin_, _Herlequin_,
> _Herlekin_, _Hierlekin_, _Hielekin_, _Helquin_, _Hennequin_, with the
early
> Italian variant _arlecchino_.  I keep wondering if this does not also
> contain this Dutch/Flemish derivation _-quin_ being derived from the
> diminutive suffix _-ken_.  Furthermore, I keep wondering if this may not
go
> back to something like Dutch/Flemish *_kerl(e)ken_ (> _kerelke(n)_)
'little
> guy'.  In some Lowlands Saxon dialects (and Saxonized Flemish ones?) this
> would be _karl(e)ken_.   The problem in this case lies in the _h_ in
French,
> for, if I were on to something, we'd expect French *_querlequin_ >/~
> _carlequin_.  Is it possible that this /k/ changed to /h/?  Has anyone
else
> ever suggested this etymology?

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From: Jo Thys <Jo.Thijs1 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.11.24 (05) [D/E]

Ron,

About "harlequin"

>  I keep wondering if this does not also
> contain this Dutch/Flemish derivation _-quin_ being derived from the
> diminutive suffix _-ken_.

> Furthermore, I keep wondering if this may not go
> back to something like Dutch/Flemish *_kerl(e)ken_ (> _kerelke(n)_)
'little
> guy'.  In some Lowlands Saxon dialects (and Saxonized Flemish ones?) this
> would be _karl(e)ken_.

>  Is it possible that this /k/ changed to /h/?  Has anyone else
> ever suggested this etymology?

Van Dale compares harlekijn with Oldhighgerman 'helle kunni' and Old English
'helle cyn'. This helle should be cognate with 'helen', to hide, while
'kunne/quin' would originally mean lineage/genus and be cognate with 'kind',
child. This originally meant the same as 'kunne', and its use as 'child' in
the northern germanic languages seems a loan from the south (Highgerman
Kind). Therefore Harlequin should mean something like 'hellekind' or
'duivelsbroed', wich could explain the Dutch abusive term 'helleveeg',
('hellewicht)', the devil playing an important role in medieval theater.
(was clodovech a drag queen?)
The diminutive -ken- could be another form of this 'kunne' (cfr gens,
genos), meaning litterally child. A 'menneke' therefore could originally be
understood as 'man-child' rather than as 'little' man. The same goes for
'bloemken' a (flower-child), 'e beteke' (a bit-child) etc. In French petit
also means 'child', and there's gamin/gamine, ending up as 'gaminke' near
the linguistic border.

Kerel itself already implies less or little: Middeldutch ke(e)rle, ka(e)rle,
kerel (free man form low  birth, peasant) cfr Greek (geros, old man),
Oldindish, jaran( old,weak). It seems that Karel the Grote has caused a
semantic shift, noticable even in Russian 'koroli', king. Dutch 'karig,
gierig, gering'  have a connotation of 'litlle', like 'girl' 'göre'(?) etc.

In the case of 'Hellekind' i don't doubt the /k/ changed in a /h/, since i'm
convinced that Hella, Cael, and Kali  (and Hilda, Gerda and Hera) were
originally one and the same.

Groeten
Jo Thys

p.s. "(and Saxonized Flemish ones?)" ? You  mean Flemishised Saxon ones?:.)

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.11.24 (05) [D/E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>Has anyone else ever suggested this etymology?<

Partridge has the following

the It arlecchino is itself derived from  EF Herlekin or Hierlekin    a
demon or goblin, the maesnie hierlekin denoting a retinue of evil spirits
seen in the night air

Then he says :-  Hierlekin is perhaps of Germanic origin and perhaps
corresponds to a ME *Herle King ( King Harilo)   [ But he doesn't make any
further link to der Erlkönig ???!!]
He continues ;- I prefer DAF's derivation from G-Fl hellekin - a devil, a
diminutive offshoot of the Germanic root of E hell and H Hölle

Heather

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