LL-L "Phonology" 2004.10.13 (08) [A/D/E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2004 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.10.13 (05) [A/E]

Denis asked: "Is there any other Germanic language where L changes in to
(vocalised) W?"

I think English is an example of it.  I don't know the dialect, but on Pink
Floyd's "Another Brick in the Wall" it sound to me like "Aw en aw, you just
@ nuth@ brick in the waw."

Mark Brooks

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.10.13 (05) [A/E]

Beste Henry,

Onderwerp: Phonology

Re: "Botanica" 2004.10.12 (03) [A]

> > Mark wrote:
> > ... Europies nie, maar Noord-Europies.

> Waar leg jy die klemtoon in "Europies" eigenlik?
> (Verskoon my Afrikaans)

So, Henry, saam met die hoofletters, 'euROpies'. Hoe maak julle?

Die Uwe,
Mark

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From: marco [evenhuiscommunicatie] <marco at evenhuiscommunicatie.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.10.13 (05) [A/E]

denis dujardin explained:

> About the pronounciation of "-en" in verbs. In Westflemish indeed we do
> pronounce it, but near the language border in France (French - or South
> Flanders (south-west of the Dunkirk area))
> there are several villages which do omit the "en". Those villagers are
> called ironically the "enne-biters" (biting their "en"). They pronounce
> their verbs like "eete" (to eat) whereas in Westflanders we say "eetn"
> (allmost pronounced liked "eaten" in English). They also say "spit'te"
> (to dig: spitten) / maawe (malen in Dutch meaning "to grind").

The 'rules' of the pronounciation of -en in verbs in the villages in French
Flanders Denis wrote about, are a bit more complicated then just 'biting
off' every -n. The system in these most western villages in French Flanders,
are shared with large parts of Zeeland. Remnants of it can be found in some
coastal villages in West Flanders, so we probably have to do with an old
ingvaeonic feature that still exists in those areas where the influence of
Brabantish (Frankish) dialects in recent centuries was not as big as in East
Flanders and large parts of West Flanders.
I believe that in Frisian they also still have the same system. It is like
this (I use Zeelandic in my examples):

- all plural forms have -e in stead of -en or even -n in West Flemish
dialects, so: "ons lôpe" (we walk or are walking) in stead of W-Flemish
"wylder loôpn", "ulder stae" (they stand or are standing) in stead of "ulder
staon", "ze doee" (they do or are doing) in stead of "ze doen".
- an infinitive used in combination with "te" has -en: "da's nie te lezen"
(it's unreadable), "ie stae mae wat te staen" (he is just standing there),
etc.
- a verb used as a noun also has -en: "ik vinde fietsen vee gaever as lôpen"
(I prefer cycling to walking), "'t kaorten gaet n aolmae moeilijker af"
(cardplaying is getting harder and harder for him)

As you see, this system is far more complicated and consequent than
Hollandish dialects. Hollandish just has -e in all these positions, except
in words that consist of only one syllable: doen, staan, gaan (Zeelandic=:
doee, stae, gae).
As far as I know, these rules go for the dialects of a number of villages in
French Flanders, the isles of Walcheren, Noord-Beveland, Tholen, Goeree and
Schouwen-Duiveland in Zeeland and parts of the isle of Zuid-Beveland in
Zeeland. And as I already said: I believe Frisian has the same system...

Regards,

Marco Evenhuis

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From: Jo Thys <Jo.Thijs1 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.10.13 (05) [A/E]

Denis,

Je schreef

> De "w" in  maawe brings me to another specific feature of that very old
south-flemish.
> Is there any other Germanic language where L changes in to (vocalised)
> W? As far as I can remember Polish also has this feature, denoting it
> with a barred L.
>
> Denis Dujardin
> Westflanders

Misschien is de verschuiving old ->oud /owt/ hier een voorbeeld van.
Anderzijds is in mijn Tongerlands (Zuid-Limburgs)  malen 'mwolen' en bestaan
de W en L (nog?) naast elkaar zodat beide in sommige gevallen misschien
stammen van < wl. Vergelijk bijvoorbeeld 'uil', Eng. 'owl'. en Oudhoogduits
'uwila'. Zou er naast 'maawe' een nevenvorm 'maawele' kunnen bestaan?

Groeten,

Jo Thys

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