LL-L "Syntax" 2004.10.24 (03) [D/E]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.10.18 (02) [E]

>>>>> Hey Roger

Sounds interesting! Would it be possible that in parts of Flemish speaking
Belgium this _en/ne_ negative particle
was preserved so much longer because of French influence;like  _ne_ in  Je
ne sais pas? I mean Melkwezer must
be not too far from the Dutch/French (or Flemish/Walloon) language border,
and standard French has been the
official languages of the area so long, and the Brabant capital is primarily
French-speaking Brussels...

The Geteland example you gave  _ich zeg oech da ich da ni en wil_  = St.
Dutch ik zeg u dat ik dat niet wil
looks quite Limburgish to me with all its  ch's. Is this part of Brabant
already Limburgophone maybe? (Ingmar)

> From: Roger Hondshoven 2 <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.09.05 (03) [E]
>
> > > Hi all,
> In connection with 'en/ne' I would like to add that in Brabant 'en' is
used
> as a negative particle together with another negative word. From the
dialect
> that I researched, the dialect of Melkwezer, a "Getelands" dialect in
> East-Brabant, I may quote a couple of examples: as der ni en zwecht..'als
je
> niet zwijgt..', ich zeg oech da ich da ni en wil 'ik zeg je dat ik dat
niet
> wil' . The 'en' is used only sporadically today and then by older people.
It
> is my impression that  the word is only used before monosyllabic verbal
> forms. In an article in Taal en Tongval (1950) J.L. Pauwels arrived at a
> similar conclusion for the dialect of Aarschot

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From: Jo Thys <Jo.Thijs1 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.10.18 (02) [E]

----- Original Message -----
> In connection with 'en/ne' I would like to add that in Brabant 'en' is
used
> as a negative particle together with another negative word. From the
dialect
> that I researched, the dialect of Melkwezer, a "Getelands" dialect in
> East-Brabant, I may quote a couple of examples: as der ni en zwecht..'als
je
> niet zwijgt..', ich zeg oech da ich da ni en wil 'ik zeg je dat ik dat
niet
> wil' . The 'en' is used only sporadically today and then by older people.
It
> is my impression that  the word is only used before monosyllabic verbal
> forms. In an article in Taal en Tongval (1950) J.L. Pauwels arrived at a
> similar conclusion for the dialect of Aarschot
>
> Regards,
>
> Roger

Hoogst interessant, Roger. Hetzelfde lijkt in het Limburgs, het Vlaams en
het MiddelNederlands te gebeuren, en zelf ken ik  geen voorbeeld dat vloekt
met je monosyllabische indruk, maar ik heb het enkel in de eerste en tweede
persoon enkelvoud gehoord. In de andere Germaanse talen lijkt dit principe
minder te spelen (al twijfel ik aan het Engels). Misschien is dit een
overblijfsel van een oude conservative substraattaal waarop Maurits
Gysseling en Hans Kuhn onafhankelijk van elkaar de aandacht vestigden en die
door hen respectievelijk 'Belgisch' of 'de taal van het Noord-Westblok  als
laatste restant van de westelijke tak van het Indo-Germaans' worden genoemd.
(Lamarq en Rogge: de taalgrens p42-43).Misschien ook niet.

Groeten,

Jo Thys

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