LL-L "Genetics" 2004.10.29 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 29.OCT.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: genetics

Ron,

According to an academic in London the link is with
Friesland area roughly, although as you say many
questions still abound around whether these
'ancestors' were Frisians or Angles who moved down
from further north, I suspect mainly the later,
although probably a mixture because as you say
genetics often don't give a good guide to language and
culture.

There is also a debate over whether settlement was
'mass' or not & whether the Angles/English moved out
the Britons or merely took over existing kingdoms and
intermixed. Evidence suggests (although limited) that
the migration was larger than previously thought and
that to some extent the Britons were forced out, most
probably from the most fertile land etc. Place name
evidence in Northumberland seems to confirm this, as
does linguistic evidence, where British influences are
very limited.

tek id easy,
Glenn

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From: John Dykstra <dexter at execulink.com>
Subject: LL-L "Genetics" 2004.10.28 (01) [E]

From: John Dykstra dexter at execulink.com
     This posting may relate to an article I read some time ago, somewhere
about this survey.
      Some of the testing done in Friesland took place near the town of
Beetgum, my place of birth,   before moving to Canada.  Beetgum was settled
at least 2000 years ago as one of the early terp towns, a terp being an
artificial mount, thrown up to be able to live above the level of the stormy
North Sea. It was a fishing village then, with the sea washing all around it
at times. There seems to be evidence that Frisians often manned garrisons
along Hadrians Wall, while later being part of the migration to England , as
well as supplying the ships therefore. Kent seems to be one of their places
of settlement, while it is believed that there was a great deal of contact
with the fishers (and ports?) from Scotland. Beetgum is now several miles
inland, after a huge piece of sea was regained to the North of it after
1200.  It is located about 10 miles West of Friesland's capital, Leeuwarden.
I wish that I had kept the article, which stated that there was a near
perfect DNA match with the English samples.  In an earlier exchange there
was reference to Frisian ships not having had keels. This is still true in
many cases, since many of the inland waters and shallow seas did not allow
such use. In it's place they used a moveable sideboard, which could be
raised and lowered, as needed.
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Genetics
>
> Glenn Simpson:
>
>> This might interest one or two - Newcastle University are conducting a
>> genetics survey in Northumberland (the town of Morpeth to be precise).
>> Early
>> findings show that men from the area are genetically closely linked to
>> those
>> residing in present day North West Germany and Northern Netherlands. I am
>> trying to find out more detailed locations, if possible. This contrasts
>> with
>> neighbouring counties of Cumbria and Yorkshire where later Scandanavian
>> settlement was
>> extensive.  The genetics suggest that settlement in this region was far
>> greater than previously thought & that the English migration from the
>> continent was very much on a mass scale and not one of a 'conquering
>> elite'
>> as occurred during the Norman period.
>
>> Interesting because it 'may' answer some outstanding questions such as
>> north
>> eastern England above the River Wear did not see much Scandanavian
>> settlement (certainly in later periods), a factor that could explain why
>> the
>> dialect spoken in this region is different from further south. It also
>> 'may'
>> also confirm that the dialect spoken in Northumberland can trace it's
>> roots
>> back a long way & that there are strong links still with some continental
>> languages. Still all conjecture though I admit!
>>
>> Thought you might find it interesting.
>
> I find it very interesting, Glenn.  Thank you very much indeed!
>
> If you could find the details about the locations in Northwestern Germany
> and
> the Northern Netherlands I would be most grateful to you for sharing that
> information.
>
> What is interesting about this is that this is an area in which Frisian
> was
> used originally and then gradually came to be replaced by Saxon, resulting
> in Lowlands Saxon dialects on Frisian substrates.  It would be interesting
> to know, also, if there is any indication as to when migration took place,
> before Saxon encroachment on Frisian or after it had begun.
>
> Some recent studies seem to show that genetic and linguistic relations
> often
> match but not always.  However, if we knew more about this case we might
> be
> able to compare the Morpeth variety with that of the places on the
> continent.
>
> Thanks again, Glenn.  All the best to you and your association!
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

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