LL-L "Syntax" 2004.09.06 (06) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 06.SEP.2004 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Jo Thys <Jo.Thijs1 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax"


Hei ljeglenner,

First i want to thank you for your fast en elobarate reponses.
So far, i tentatively conclude that:

MHG ih en gan (from Jan Strunk)
Limb: ik en ga niet
Western Flemich (were it still exists): "Ik en gaon " also" Ik en gaon
niet."(Luk vanbrabant),

could be the same grammatical construction, in which en is a second
negotiator (Jan Strunk) or negation in an uncompleted
threat(...)which would have to have a rising intonation (klaus schmirler)

For the continuïty of "en" and "ne" an older form like "enne" must be
supposed, meaning not.
in this sense ne, it also appears at the end of llprhases,

Lowlands Saxon (Low German) it's _..., ne?_ [nE] or _..., ni?_ [nI].
(Reinhard "Ron"  Hahn)

like other constructions where the meaning seams to be "not", but a
different word is used,

>Du hast doch Butter gekauft, oder? (Gabriele Kahn); dutch:" Heb je nu boter
gekocht of niet?
>It's_..., ne?_ [nE] in many North German dialects as well, _..., nich?
(Reinhard "Ron"  Hahn)

The English  "i ain't go" and it's_... isn't it" seem to fit in this sceme,
but the difference is that a verb phrase is being used instead of a single
word.Still there is the English -inni(t) with the missing enne-sound,  used
where others use the word niet/ nicht/

>In all these cases you find "isn't it" in Asian varieties of English. If
you
>want an explanation you could say it is short for "isn't it so?". In Common
>English Demotic we now have the form "innit" used in this same way (John
Feather)

Therefore i still wonder wheter "ain't" could be a hypercorrection of "en
not" or even "en niet", rather than a contraction of "am, is,... not", or
"isn't it" could be a hypercorrection of "innit" (ennot), possible under
influence of the french n'est-ce pas?

>But there is the complication that these phrases can all be used as
>intensifiers or as simple verbal noise.Mockney gangsters say things
>like: "I give 'im a spankin', di:n [didn't] I?"

>This last form (replacement of verb with the dummy verb "do" in the correct
>tense) seems particularly difficult for non-native speakers to grasp. (John
Feather)

It truly is, but could the reason why that is be an hypercorrection. Compare
(cf)

He swam the Channel, didn't he?
He did swam the Channel, did he?
I swam the Channel, di:n I!

In Dutch to do is no auxilar verb. All constructions mentioned however, like
the Gel end the speakers turn, and wait for the other's view on the same
subject. In Dutch we say "Ik heb het koud, jij nie(t)?".Therefore, could
"thou" (jij, you, du) be somewhere be (mis)understood as "do" (to do) so
that "I give 'im a spankin', di:n [didn't] I?" once soundend like "I give
'im a spanking, thou ne" or even "...thou enne", (>di:nnai), in which this
"thou ne" could semanticly best be seen as, "(or thought) you not (so)",
given  the other lowlandic forms, "...,dich nicht", "...,oder nicht", "...,
jij niet" and " (het gaat regenen), dacht je niet?"

>But Swiss are prone to see "gell" as a 2 pers sing form and find it
>offensive from a person with whom they don't use "du".( John Feather)

>Both "gell" and "ne?" are considered uneducated at best in
High German (Gabriele Kahn)

Complicating it even more, in Dutch "gij wel" is used after denials: "ik ga
niet, gij wel?" contrary to "ik ga, jij niet?"
 (I don't go, do you?- I go, don't you?). Gel could be a sortlike
construction of the pronomonen ge + wel (wohl), and a contraction  gewel,
gewohl >gel (comp. Germ. jawohl and gutch. jawel). In dutch even so, "gij
wel", "jij wel" or "gij nie" are not used in formal situations.

>When my oldest (at that time bilingual) daughter was about two years old,
>she used to do the same in Dutch: "Dat ziet d'r mooi uit, of?", "Straks
gaan
>we ontbijten, of?", etc. - often ending almost every single sentence that
>way. She refused to believe that this wasn't correct, since it was
perfectly
>OK in German. (Gabriel Kahn)

If she'd said " Dat ziet er mooi, of niet", "Straks gaan we onbijten, of
niet" it would have made very eloquent Dutch!


I realise how farfetched most of it sounds so i like to conclude with a wise
remark from John Feather: "Why should "isn't" be modelled on something
else?"

>So from where in Belgian or Netherlands Limburg is the father originated?
Is
it a general use or rather particular for a family?" (Roger Thys)

He's from Membruggen, Roger, which is categorised as Tongerlands, at the
border with the Bilzerlands. My father systematically ascribes any match
like titemus (titmouse) and snjeuken (snack) to the Tungri who fought in the
Roman armies invading Britain. I'm not sure about the extent to which "en"
is used, but i'll en ask about.

Met vriendelijke groeten,

Jo Thys, Mewa

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