LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.09.09 (03) [E/LS]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Language varieties" [E]

> From: Grietje MENGER <grietje at menger.fsnet.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.09.06 (04) [E]
>
> By the way, I'm a bit of a collector of sign language dictionaries, BSL
> (Faber and Faber), ASL, NGT (Nederlandse Gebarentaal) and one of Norwegian
> signs, mostly directed to kids. Got to get myself some others as well.

Here's a page that might interest you in this respect - some of the
documents cited are sign language dictionaries:

http://www.evertype.com/standards/iso639/sgn.html

Here's a list of what might be called "Lowlandic" sign languages, in one
sense or another (I've used a wide net, probably a little too wide).

American Sign Language (USA, Canada)
Belgian-Flemish Sign Language
Belgian-French Sign Language
British Sign Language
Dutch Sign Language
German Sign Language
Irish Sign Language
South African Sign Language
Australian Aboriginal Sign Language (Australia, Northern Territory)
Australian Sign Language
French Canadian Sign Language (Qubec)
Hawai'i Pidgin Sign Language
Hong Kong Sign Language
Martha's Vineyard Sign Language
New Zealand Sign Language
Nova Scotian Sign Language
Old Kentish Sign Language
Plains Sign Talk (South Dakota)

As far as I know, Martha's Vineyard and Old Kentish sign language are
moribund, possibly lost. But MVSL is descended from OKSL and it's likely
that they had such a strong influence on American Sign Language that ASL
could be said to be a creole of French and Martha's Vineyard sign languages,
plus some indigenous Native American signs deliberately borrowed by
educators. Of course ASL is the official language of Gallaudet University so
its vocabulary must now be more highly developed than it used to be.

I was under the impression that Quebecois sign language was a different
thing from French Canadian sign language, but this doesn't seem to be
reflected in the list.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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From: john feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Language varieties

In pursuit of greater understanding of the "similarity" issue I have been
looking at Fru Clara Kramer-Freudenthal's story "Wiehnachten 1947", written
in Lower Elbe North Saxon, which was posted on December 1999. I have tried
to work out how much of it a Dutch speaker would understand. If there is
anyone out there who reads Dutch but not German or Saxon I should be
grateful for their opinion.

I estimate that at least 10% of the LENS words in the text would be
incomprehensible but this includes things like the title which may be given
away by the context. It is hard to determine the tenses of the verbs and the
similarity of the words representing the conjugated forms of Du "zijn" and
"werden" could be confusing. Unfamiliar verb endings, eg "-t" for 1st person
plural, don't help and there is no "ge-" marker for the past participle.

But one of the most awkward things is the verb prefix "r-". This equates to
the "her-" of high German, and to the best of my knowledge a similar usage
is rarely if ever found in Dutch. There are a few phrases in which "her"
stands as a separate word, and "hier-" is used as a prefix but not normally
indicating motion. Du "her-" is presumed to derive from French "re-", with a
similar range of meanings.

So Fru K-F's "rünnertobrennen" (referring to "Talliglichten", ie Du
"kaarsen", E "candles") would presumably be "herunterzubrennen" in HG and
"aftebranden" in Du. She (if I dare use the word) also writes "ropp op"
which I take to equate to Du "daarop op" and HG "herauf auf". But in
Standard HG the correct usage is "hinauf auf". I was once in a translation
class containing a few German students and the teacher asked them to explain
the difference in meaning between "hin-" and "her-" because she judged from
their geographical origin that they were "her-" people  (I nearly wrote
"Her-renvolk") and wouldn't find it easy. Is it simply a matter of North vs
South, and which way round?

Dutch has "heen-" corresponding to HG "hin-" but there are very few verbs
with this prefix in the Van Dale Dutch/English dictionary and only two
handfuls in the GWNT, though it says that this is only a selection. By
contrast Langenscheidt's Encyclopaedic German/English Dictionary has over 10
pages of German words (verbs, etc) in "hin-" and Duden's Deutsches
Universal-Woerterbuch" has over 20 columns of them. So is it the case that
Dutch does not in practice make much use of "heen-", which is suggested by
the Van Dale dictionaries? Or is it just that the German count is so much
higher because of the compound prefixes "hin-" + preposition which Dutch
(volgens mij) doesn't seem to make much use of? All contributions gratefully
received.

John Feather johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks, John.

The web address of the story (in a collection I present at
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/kramer/):
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/kramer/wiehnachten1947.html

The German-based orthography may present a major stumbling block for the
mentioned target audience, as do attempts to render Lower Elbe pronunciation
"phonetically" (e.g., /aa/ <o>, /eyr/ <ier> ~ <iehr>, /öür/ <eu> ~ <äu>).

For those who need it (after trying to read the original version first),
below is my transliteration into the ANS system, which is loosely based on
Middle Saxon spelling and is also closer to Middle Dutch.

Of course, the many German chunks in the story don't exactly help ...

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***


Wynachten 1947

vun Clara Kramer-Fröydenthal
(Kristmaand 1999)

Is uns Herold-Center warrer smuk uut-staffeyrd tou Wynachten! Dey velen
lichten, dey ruuch vun dannen-gröyn ligt in dey luft, un dey minschen ylt
mit vulle taschen an uns vör by. Keyn tyd, keyn tyd, üm al dat schöyne in
sik op tou nemen. Wat eyn över-vlout! Dey velen tallig-lichten in mennig
klöyr mit ingels und steyrns sünd veel too schaad’ runner tou brennen. Daar
lees’ ik ,,Sonderpreis: Eine Kiste Clementinen-Apfelsinen'' un wat nich
allens an-pryst wardt vör wenig geld. Of ik wil or nich, bums bün ik in myn
dinken by Wynachten 1947. Har wul dat glitsern un dey glimmer uut dey
psüyche vertüyg hoold.

Ligt nu goud vöftig jaar trüg. In Cranz, by Otto Bröhan op den dyk blangen
dey schoul harren wy na dey vlucht eyn ünner-kamen vunnen. Dat jaar 1947
wöyrd’ na den kryg eyn ganss leget jaar. In d'n kryg un kot na den kryg
harren wy meyr tou eten un meyr hult un kalen as 1947. Dey raatschonen, dey
op levensmittel-kaarten stünden, wörden ümmer minner. Wat hebt wy allens op
dey beynen stelt, üm eyn eyniger-maten kommodiget Kristvest tou hebben!
Minschen op d'n landen harren dat ja noch veel beter as dey stad-minschen.
Myn man un ik hebt uns mennig nacht üm dey ouren slaan mit bouk-vöyren vör
dey buern un kouplüyd’. Dey buern hebt uns mit melk, wust, bodder, ayer un
smult betaald. By dey kouplüyd’ geev’ dat tsukker, meel, un ook maal eyn
pund margarine vör uns arbayd. Tou Wynachten kregen wy sogaar vaken maal eyn
öynt or gaar eyn gous tou-steken. Uns kalen-höker, Adolf Bartels -- bün em
hüyt noch dankbaar -- har my eyn sak brykets un anthratsyt aan marken tou
Wynachten vör dey döör steld. Eyn warme döönss un eyn Wynachts-braden wöyrn
uns seker.

Wat harren wy aver vör uns bayden lütten jungs? Diether mit syn söven jaar
har ganss lütte, bescheydene wünsch, aver sübst dey wöyrn kuum üm tou
setten. Speeltüyg vör dey kinder, dat wöyrn wunsch-dröym. Aver daar wöyrd’
ja noch Theo Hintze, eyn dischler-meyster in Leeswig, vör den wy ook dey
böyker in dey reyg’ holden hebt. Morgigen-daags wul ik vourts hin na Theo un
em vragen, of hey vör uns jungs wul eyn sleden bouen kun. Na, dat wöyrd’
doch wat, wen 't klappen schul. Den harren wy wat vör bayde jungs. Sney leyg
’ al noog tou’n rüschen. Den dyk hindaal, över dey straat un den rop op dey
tou-vrarenen gravens, dat wöyrd’ dat grötste vergnöygen vör dey kinder in
dey daarmalige tyd. Dey lütst, uns Heiner, wul so geyrn eyn teddy-beern
hebben as Berni Harms eyn har. Allens schöyn un goud, aver woans wöyrd’ an
so eyn teddy ran tou kamen? Bleyv’ my niks anners över, as Berni syn vadder
tou vragen, of hey vör tsigaretten-kaarten op den ,,swatten markt'' wul so
eyn teddy organiseyren kun. Wy wüssen altouhoup, dat Bernhard Harms sik in
Altna op den “swatten Markt” goud uut-kin un nich slecht daar vun leev’.

Güng my veel dörch den kop so kot vör dey vestdaag’, un dey daag’ bet
Wynachten hin löypen ümmer gauer. Nu rop in dey eyrste etaasch’ un by
vamylie Harms bimmeln. Vadder Harms apen my dey döör:

,,Guten Morgen, Herr Harms. Ich komme mit einer vielleicht unmöglichen Bitte
zu ihnen, aber unser Heiner wünscht sich zu Weihnachten so sehr einen
Teddybären wie Ihr Bernd einen hat. Wäre es ihnen vielleicht möglich, einen
solchen oder einen ähnlichen zu beschaffen?''

Vadder Harms dray sik so 'n beten smeyrig hin un her un vraag’ ook vourts:

,,Was hätten Sie mir dafür zu bieten? Mit Geld ist heute nichts mehr zu
beschaffen, wie Sie ja wohl selber wissen.''

,,Viel kann ich ihnen nicht bieten außer Zigarettenkarten.''

Mt bubber myn hat! Wen hey man tou-seggen wörd’, so 'n kinder-hat wöyrd’ in
dey daarmalige, sware tyd mit kleynigkeiten seylig tou maken.

,,Ich will mich bemühen, schon weil Berni und Heiner so gut miteinander
auskommen.''

Kot un goud, dat mit den teddy het klapt. Ook by Theo Hintze kreyg’ ik eyn
wunner-schöynen sleden vör unsen Diether. Nu kun dat Wynachten warren. Aver
noch wat stünd in'n roum. ’Keyn schul den wynachts-man spelen? Vrou Wotzny,
schöyt my dat dörch myn kop, ja, dey wörd’ dat seker geyrn maken. Wy hebt
uns besnakt, un allens güng syn waanten weg.

Dey Hillig-Avend wöyrd’ daar. Dey dannen-boum mit eyn paar lichten -- ook
lichten wöyrn knap -- stünd al putst in dey döönss. Vrou Wotzny har den
varig pakten sak mit appeln, nööt, brune kouken, pletten un lütte paketen
mit kney-strümp, dey ik uut tsukker-sek knütt har, uut dey waschköök haald
un klop an dey döör.

,,Herein'' seed’ myn man, un myn bayden jungs grepen na myn hand.

,,Dat is man bloots dey Wynachts-man'', beswicht ik jüm.

Un Wynachts-man Wotzny wöyrd’ ook al daar by tou vragen.

,,Na, seid ihr beiden auch immer artig gewesen? Kann denn einer auch ein
Gedicht aufsagen?''

,,Ja, beide haben ein Gedicht für dich gelernt, lieber Weihnachtsmann'', hev
ik anterd.

Ganss vyn hebt uns jungs jüm eern rymel op-segd, un tou'n dank schüt dey
Wynachts-man den sak uut op eyn deek, dey ik praat legd har.

,,Das war aber sehr schön! Hier brauche ich die Rute gar nicht
hervorzuholen, aber ich habe noch etwas für euch, weil ihr so liebe Kinder
seid!'', verkünd dey Wynachts-man, un nu eyrst köym hey mit den sleden
vertüyg, dey noch achter dey döör staan har. Un keyn seet wul op den sleden?
Unsen Heiner syn teddy-beer! Un dey wöyrd’ noch eyn lüt beten grötter as
Berni Harms syn. Ook Diether wöyrd’ bannig stult, dat hey nu eyn eygenen
sleden har un nich ümmer snurren müss by dey annern kinder, wen hey maal den
dyk rünner rüschen wul.

Dey stralenen ogen vun myn bayden jungs an dat bescheyden Kristvest 1947
seeg’ ik hüyt noch vör my. Kommodig hebt wy uns an den disch sett un uns mit
uns kinder vrayd. (An disse steed’ nochmaals dank an discher-meyster Theo
Hintze, dey uns, as wy niks harren, mit richtige stöyl un dischen uut-rüstt
het.) Nadem ik dey Wynachts-geschicht leest har, güng dat in uns
keller-köök, wouneem dey gröynkaal al op uns töyv’, dey suutje op den
kalen-heyrd op sachtet bryket-vüyr vör sik hin prütteld har. Het uns dat
smekt an'n Hillig-Avend 1947!

Mit eyns stött myn Heinz my ganss sachten an:

,,Ich habe dich etwas gefragt. Warum antwortest du nicht? Wollen wir uns
Zitrusfrüchte mitnehmen? Sie sind wirklich preiswert.''

"Entschuldige bitte, aber ich war ganz kurz in der Vergangenheit, sicher
ausgelöst durch diesen Überfluß hier. Und mir wurde soeben bewußt, daß wir
trotz aller Armut 1947 viel reicher und zufriedener waren als wir es heute
sind.''

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